Fresh Air - Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu

Episode Date: March 15, 2025

Bill Burr knows exactly where his sense of humor comes from. He learned at an early age that if he could make people laugh, then they'd be less likely to hurt him. "I am a mess of a human being, still, this far into life. ... But it makes for good comedy," he says. His new Hulu stand-up special is called Bill Burr: Drop Dead Years. In 2012, three deep-sea divers were on a routine dive in the North Sea when one of the divers became trapped underwater. The harrowing story of that rescue is the plot of the movie Last Breath. Actor Simu Liu had to scuba dive in dark depths for his role, which was largely shot underwater.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey, Sam Sanders here with KCRW personally inviting you to check out my new podcast. It's an entertainment show that tries to figure out what makes the culture tick and tell the stories behind creators we love. New episodes are out every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to The Sam Sanders Show, part of the NPR Podcast Network. From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, comedian Bill Burr. Lately, he's been trying to control his anger.

Like what you literally saw in this interview is a day of being me. It's like me starting the day. I'm not going to flip out. I am going to be as happy. And then before 11 a.m. Fli flip out. I am going to be as happy da-da-da-da-da. And then before 11 a.m. Arrgh! I'm flipping out." He traces his anger issues to his upbringing.

Let's talk a little bit about your childhood. Oh, Jesus. People are driving to work here. Let's try to give them some uplifting. We'll also hear from actor Simu Liu. He's best known for his breakout role, Shang-Chi, Marvel's first Asian superhero, and being a rival kin in the film Barbie.

Now he stars with Woody Harrelson in the new movie, Last Breath, about deep sea divers who perform a life-saving rescue. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This message comes from CBS. Survivor 48 is here and alongside it is a new season of On Fire with Jeff Probst, the official Survivor podcast. It's the only podcast that gives you inside access to Survivor.

New episodes are available every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. On Throughline from NPR. The consequences for the country would have been enormous. It would have been a crisis. The man who saw a dangerous omission in the U.S. Constitution and took it upon himself to fix it. Find NPR's Thru Line wherever you get your podcasts. Traveling is fun, inspiring, and in many cases, life-changing. But for the people who live in these destinations, it's not always for the better.

This is Peak Travel, a podcast from WHYY, and we're back with our second season. I'm your host, Tariah Mzazawa. We're traveling the world, tailgating the Super Bowl in New Orleans, touring ancient caves in Petra, and summiting Himalayan peaks in Bhutan. All to figure out how travel shapes communities and hotspots around the world, and how we can do it better. Find us wherever you get your podcasts. Tanya Mosley This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terri Gross has our first interview.

Terri Gross My guest Bill Burr was recently described by New York Times comedy columnist Jason Zinneman as one of the greatest living stand-up comics. In Rolling Stone, Burr was described as the undisputed heavyweight champ of rage-fueled humor. Bill Burr has a new comedy special on Hulu called Drop Dead Years. Here's an excerpt. He's talking about driving on the freeway in LA where he lives when he's caught in bumper to bumper traffic. Meanwhile there's hardly any cars in the HOV lane, the high-occupancy vehicle lane, which is reserved for vehicles with at least two people. He's tempted to get into that

lane even though there's no one else in his car, but he knows the HOV rules are strictly enforced. I could go in there by myself, okay, but if there's no one else in his car. But he knows the HOV rules are strictly enforced. I could go in there by myself, okay? But if there's a cop there, I'm gonna get pulled over. I'm gonna get yelled at, I get a ticket, and my insurance goes up. I am not allowed to do that. However, I can still join the Klan.

I can join the Ku Klux Klan and not get in trouble. I could join the Ku Klux Klan and not get in trouble. I don't get yelled at, I don't get a ticket, no insurance goes up. I could drive down the highway in my Klan outfit as long as I had the mud flap up. I could say, Grand Dragon on the front of the sheet, I could have a white power bumper sticker, I could have a Hitler bobblehead right on the dashboard, just sitting there going like that. I would not get pulled over unless I went into the HOV lane, right?

And then I wouldn't get pulled over because I joined a terrorist organization. I would get pulled over because I didn't have another terrorist with me. That's what the problem would be. And the cops will be coming up like, well, well, well, aren't we in a hurry to get to the cross burning this evening? Who the hell do you think you are, buddy? Okay, that's Bill Burr from his new comedy special. He's also one of the stars of the new Broadway revival

of the David Mamet play, Glengarry Glen Ross. The revival has an incredible cast, Burr, Kieran Culkin, Bob Odenkirk, and Michael McKean. Burr co-starred in the film King of Staten Island, which was loosely based on the life of the film's star, Pete Davidson. Burco created, co-wrote, and starred in the animated series F is for Family.

Although he's known for comedy that's often contrarian and angry, the new comedy special, Drop Dead Years, opens like this. That's kind of a weird thing to be over 50, really starting to realize like how f***** you are. Like I thought I did stand up because I loved comedy. And then what I really figured out was like, no, that's not why I did it. I did stand up because that was the easiest way to walk into a room full of a bunch of

people that I didn't know and make everybody like me. Ladies and gentlemen, Bill Burr. The way I've moved through the world has always been like, where's the place I have the least chance of being heard? Bill Burr, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. What's going on? How are you? I'm good.

It seems unusual for you to start on a note of vulnerability like you do in this new special. Does this mark a change in your public or private self? Something I've kind of been going towards, but also, I don't think, you know, like most people that get on a stage, they just sort of watch what you do and then think that this little sliver of you is what you are or whatever. Like that Rolling Stone thing saying that I was the king of rage comedy, you know,

and it's in Rolling Stones, everybody listens to it. So then they just think I'm walking around just furious all the time. It's two dimensional. So, and then there's also part of me that really hates the fact that I have been so angry and had this temper and stuff. It was something I never wanted to be.

It's something I grew up with. And you think to yourself, I'm not doing that. I'm not going to be like this person, because they're making me feel bad as a kid. And then you grow up, and you end up. It's the weird thing. In order to not be it, I think a lot of times you have to be it for a while.

And it's weird. It takes somebody else in your life to let you know that that's how you're being, because a lot of times you just dialed it down a little bit, and to you that means you've leveled off. Like, where your normal is is not where normal people's normal is. So you're like, what? You know, I didn't throw a chair across the room.

I'm an easy-going, let stuff roll off my back. So who was the person who told you? Was it your wife, your therapist? Everybody in my life. Everybody. People reviewing my act, my wife. You know, there's only, like, you can only argue your point, you know, for so long. I mean, when like a hundred people in the row are going like, nah, you know, you're pretty angry, you know, you got to be like, all right, I guess I got to look at this. But it's been like a great thing. But like, I don't know, I listen to people. I try to anyway. So when they come at me with something, you know, if it makes sense, okay, if it makes sense and I'm in an emotional state

that I can actually hear somebody else, which sometimes that might take a day for me to think about something. I am the king of a day later being like, hey, you know that thing I was arguing last night? Yeah, you were right, I'm sorry. I just, I don't know why. And you know what's the torture right now

is I find myself in the moment now, knowing I'm wrong or knowing I should just stop this argument and it's not worth it. And I've gotten to the point that that voice is getting louder in my head, but I haven't been able to act on it in the moment. And that's what I'm working towards. I would love to be in the middle of some stupid argument

with my wife or whoever, and just be able to stop in the middle of it and just be like, what are we doing? Life is flying by, this isn't worth anything. This isn't worth it, who cares? Something like that. At the start of your new special, you said that you started doing standup

because it was the easiest way of walking into a room and making people like that. At the start of your new special, you say that you started doing stand-up because it was the easiest way of walking into a room and making people like you. They would like me so they wouldn't hurt me. So what kind of hurt? Are you talking about insults or being ignored, bullied, mocked? Every way that you can be abused is what I'm talking about. Have you been abused in all those ways? Oh yeah, I got the trifecta. I have the background needed to become a comedian. So yeah, it just was, it's just how it was and

it's just the time I grew up in and it was just the way it was and there was a lot of it. There was a lot of it. I did not have a unique experience growing up. I kind of feel like I had the standard, especially from, you know, talking to people. Or maybe I just hang out with too many comedians. I don't know what, but we all kind of had a similar background. And, you know, when you go through stuff like that, you come out the other side, it kind of seems one of two ways.

You either come out being like, I'm not doing that. And then what's funny is you overcorrect, you become super empathetic to the point you could end up in the trunk of somebody's car, like, oh, help you out stranger, you know? Or you go the other way is like like, you become an abuser. So fortunately, I didn't do that. But I have been guilty of being abusive, not realizing, you know, the effect that my behavior

and my anger was having on the people around me, because in my world, I wasn't as angry as what I saw growing up. So in my world, I wasn't angry. It wasn't a big deal. What I've actually found is, you know, that whole myth that you can't be happy and still be funny is a myth. And what it actually does is it breathes new life

into your act because you can now go back and revisit topics you've been to before and have a 360 perspective instead of like, I always feel like my stand-up, like the first 75 percent of my career is me standing on stage pointing at the crowd, figuratively, literally, or at whatever subject. I was always the guy that knew everything and da-da-da-da-da. The last six, seven year, whatever,

I don't know. I've more been looking at my participation in whatever event is happening. So then all that does is it gives me way more, twice as many options for the punchline now. I don't know. I feel lighter on stage lately. I don't feel, you know, there was times

I would even have good stats and I would get off stage and just feel like, God, what was that? What was that? That did not feel good. Even though the response was good, but it just kind of felt like it just didn't feel good. Because it was mean? Um, it was gross.

It was just dark, ugly, just pain and hurt just coming out the wrong way. Where, which is so funny, because some of the comedians that I love the most, the way that they process their pain was a very empathetic sort of way. Which I would say Richard Pryor was the king of that, where he just really had this ability of talking about his mistakes that he made in a way that you could see that it bothered him, that he did some a way that you could see that it bothered him, that he did some of these things, and it also made you root for him.

I felt like that was the biggest thing I had as far as being a fan of his work was beyond finding it hilarious and jaw-droppingly brilliant was I found that I was rooting for him in his personal life as he was going through all these marriages and divorces and problems with the cops and drug abuse and lighting himself on fire. He's just like, I don't know, I love the guy and I was just hoping he was gonna find peace. We're listening to Terry's interview with comic Bill Burr. His new comedy special,

Drop Dead Years, is now streaming on Hulu. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. These days, there's so much news, it can be hard to keep up with what it all means for you, your family, and your community. The Consider This podcast from NPR features our award-winning journalism. Six days a week, we bring you a deep dive on a news story and provide the context and analysis that helps you make sense of the news.

We get behind the headlines. We get to the truth. Listen to the Consider This podcast from NPR. I wanna back up a little because when you were describing your anger and trying to like change, you said you realized you'd been abusive. Do you mean verbally or physically? Oh, no, no, verbally. Good.

I just wanted to clarify that. Okay, I'll give you a classic example of that. My thing was I grew up and I saw men calling women d***s all the time and I saw the looks on their faces and I saw it, so I made this rule in my head I was never gonna do that. And I never did it. I've never done that and I've never done that to anybody. I don't think in a, I've never done it in a relationship. I might have done it driving in a car. I'm sure I have. Well that's one of the things you've talked about is that you had real road rage sometimes.

I don't even think that's fair of me to say I have road rage. I have rage and now I'm in a car, so now it's on the road. I have road rage, I have kitchen rage, I have why do I have to check myself out at a CVS rage, I don't work here. You know what I mean? I love when they're giving you a rough time, like you got to insert the chip. It's like, I'm sorry, I missed training day when I wasn't working here, getting paid. Or when they try to get all your information and then they go, we don't share this with anybody and you want to be like, you don't.

You don't. This is my thing with like politicians. The fact that the lack of privacy for the average American citizen, especially women, with the amount of women out there that have psycho ex-boyfriends, the fact that all of these stupid corporations are just allowed to do the things

that they're able to do is beyond me. And where my comedy act is right now is I'm trying to get regular people to stop yelling at each other and realize that it's a select few group of nerds, okay, eating raw almonds and doing their stupid workouts and everything and just competing with each other to have the biggest infinity pool

and the rest of us are getting pushed down. And they politicized the whole stupid thing and we're falling for it. And who's the the whole stupid thing. And we're falling for it. And who's the they? Besides the people who eat almonds? That idiot Elon Musk. Oh. That guy, like he's going to, like who evidently is a Nazi. Like I just refuse to believe that

it was an accidental two times Seagile. And he does it at a presidential inauguration. This is why I hate liberals. It's like liberals have no teeth whatsoever. They just go, oh my God, can you believe? I'm getting out of the country. I'm just like, you're going to leave the country because of one guy with dyed hair plugs and a laminated face who makes a bad car and has an obsolete social media platform, you're going to leave this guy? Why doesn't he leave? Why hasn't he stopped? What are we so afraid of this guy who can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag?

You can take him on. Like, why do liberals just sit back and they just, they have nothing. What are you doing? This. Okay. This. You got to speak up about it. You don't just go like, oh my God, what?

Like, like, just first of all, it's like I'm a stand up comedian. It's not my friggin job. I'm talking about like democratic politicians. Where is their pushback? They're allegedly liberal. You see this guy do this thing, you know what the end result of this thing is, which all these neo-Nazis, not only they stupid because they're neo-Nazis, they don't even look at what Hitler did.

He ruined their country. And this idiot is going to try to lead us down that road and then play it off and act like he didn't do what he just did? And you can get canceled as a comedian for doing a friggin' Caitlyn Jenner joke, but this ass can see Kyle and nothing hap- Where are all the liberals? Where are all these these these these white chicks at the award shows? They were speaking truth to power.

Where are they? Why did they choose to go after comedians and not the Ku Klux Klan? How come they never got canceled? That's my whole problem with liberals. I just think it's a phony ideology where what they really do is it's a bunch of white chicks trying to fix their immediate area. They really took on entertainment because they were in entertainment and then they didn't do anything else.

I'm going to stop you. You just blamed all of this on white women. Yes. Where are the men? Where are the men in what you're saying? Exactly. Because you guys went in and you totally took control in there. That whole Me Too thing was supposed to be about people with no power speaking to people

with power and giving more people opportunities, which meant people of color. And then all of a sudden, white women jumped in and became like the biggest victims in the country. They were the ones that were being listened to. That's what, that was what was weird to me. This is where you kind of lose me. It doesn't surprise me on this station talking to a white woman that I would lose you. Well, no, because the Me Too movement for women is about sexual assault. But then what did it become? And whether you're white or black or young or-

What did it morph into? What did it quickly morph into? It then morphed into, I don't like the topic of what you're discussing in your standup act. Well, I don't wanna get into an argument about this, so I'll just say- Well, what's funny is this is how I discuss things. I will just say that, what was the thing that you just said?

I just lost it for a second trying to... I'm saying what it became, it started off like, all right, this Harvey Weinstein guy is raping people. We got to get people like this out of the business. There was nobody who was against that unless you were an actual... But people were protecting him. People were protecting the musicians, the... I'm not arguing that aspect of it. I'm not arguing that aspect of it.

I'm not arguing that aspect of it. Anyhow, let's move on. Wait, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let's talk about that. Me Too started with that, and then it started this cancel cultural thing with initially they were getting these people that were sexually assaulting women. And because of their position of power,

we're not being held accountable. They finally got held accountable. Everyone who was a decent human being was on board with that. And then suddenly, within a year, it became if you were at a comedy club and somebody filmed you and took one little piece of excerpt from your act,

all of a sudden, you were thrown in with Harvey Weinstein and you were kicked, you were, like, put on the bench, basically, and you were not allowed to work in the friggin' business. Am I nuts? Did that not happen? No, I mean I think cancel culture probably went too far. I think it's an issue by issue thing. We agree. And there's a real kind of herd mentality around some of it. I think that's really up for a nuanced discussion about what deserves cancellation and what's just like...

Nuanced discussion is not one of my strong points. Okay. Anyhow, you know, we've been talking about, you know, anger and also channeling that into your work as an actor and a comic. I watched a clip of you on The Moth. The Moth is a storytelling podcast that is also a public radio program. You're so different in that. You're sitting on a stool, not pacing back and forth on the stage.

You hadn't shaved your head yet, so you have red hair. You hadn't gone bald yet. It was almost like you were 20 years younger. You had a fresh face. Yeah, that one was recorded about 20 years ago. You were single man, dealing with the altitude. So, but you're just, you're, you're sitting on a stool telling a story that has a

few laughs in it but... Oh you know what it is that's what I was battling and that's why I couldn't get any good rolls. The greatest thing that ever happened to me is I went bald for my acting career because then I shaved my head and I look like the psycho idiot that I am. But back in the day when I actually had hair, you know, Hollywood, you know, they talk about just, you know, racism and sex, it goes beyond that. Like they even like they even divide up redheads. There was like rules about redheads. I was in the redhead drawer. Okay. I was in the OP Ron Howard howdy doody drawer and like I didn't get the gun. I didn't win the fight. I didn't get the girl. I was a the Opie Ron Howard howdy doody drawer. And like, I didn't get the gun, I didn't win the fight,

I didn't get the girl, I was a mugging victim, I was just there for the cool guy. And I was saying, I used to do a joke in my act, like I'm not the hero of the action movie, like I was the nerd in the van when Tom Cruise is going, you gotta give me more time, and I would be in front of the keyboard, all right, I'll try, click, click, click, click, click.

I just wanna say in case it's not clear, I think you're hilarious. There's some jokes where I stand back and I go, hmm. I'm not sure how to take that, but I think you're a great comment. There's a lot of stuff I've done. I look, I go, did I say that? You know, it happens. I love your voice. I love your delivery. I love your delivery,

I love your spontaneity. I'm waiting for, I'm waiting for having said that. No, no, however. However. No, no, the only however is sometimes I just don't know how to take the jokes and I can interpret it one of two ways. That's the great thing about comedy.

Well, then I had a great time talking with Well, I had a great time talking with you and I had a great time debating with you and I really like you. Oh, even though we didn't line up on everything, but I like that. Oh, I like that we didn't. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much. I'll see you. Bill Burr's new comedy special, Drop Dead Years is streaming on Hulu. Our next guest today is actor Simu Liu. He's best known for his breakout role as Shang-Chi, Marvel's first Asian superhero in the film, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. Now he stars with Woody Harrelson in the new film, Last Breath.

He spoke with Fresh Airs' Anne-Marie Baldonado. Actor Simu Liu has taken on some roles that are pretty physically challenging. He does killer fight sequences in the film Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, and who can forget him dancing as one of the Kens in the movie Barbie? His latest film may be even more extreme. The action thriller Last Breath is based on the true story of deep sea divers in peril at the bottom of the North Sea. In 2012, three divers were embarking on a routine dive when rough weather and computer errors caused one diver's umbilical cable

to get stuck, leaving him trapped. But you have to do something for me, okay? You have to get yourself back to the top of the manifold. I can't rescue you if I can't find you. Understand?" That's Simu Liu, with Finn Cole as the diver who stuck with only minutes of reserve oxygen left. Simu Liu's character with another diver, played by Woody Harrelson, desperately try to bring the trapped diver back to safety. Simu Liu's first big break was in the CBC Netflix comedy

Kim's Convenience, which ran for five seasons. He says being fired from his accounting job is what helped him take the leap into acting. His best-selling memoir, We Were Dreamers, an immigrant superhero origin story, explores his family's immigration to Canada, his struggles growing up with immigrant parents, the challenges of breaking into the industry and of being an Asian-Canadian in Hollywood. Simu Liu, welcome to Fresh Air.

Thank you so much for having me. This new movie, Last Breath, is about saturation divers. Can you explain what saturation divers do? It's a very blue collar job. It's very dangerous. It's workers that work on the bottom of the sea and the bottom of the ocean, performing, you know, kind of routine maintenance and repair on pipelines, on, you know, underwater structures. It's typically extremely dark. There's not a lot of visibility.

And the living conditions of these saturation divers is just so, it's unlike anything, I think, that is really out there in the world except for maybe like an astronaut living in space. So in order for those divers to be able to operate that far beneath sea level, you know, because of the differential and atmospheric pressure, they actually have to live in a pressurized kind of tube on board a ship for 28 days. And during that time, typically it's three divers that go into sat together in one chamber, but they're living kind of on top of each other. The chamber is very, very small. You know, you're typically going to the bathroom like less than three feet away from where you're sleeping.

And for a month. For a month straight. Yeah. With the same, with the same two other guys. And when it's time to go to work, you all go into this little sphere, this bell structure, but it's lowered down to depth, at which point the divers then come out. They're hooked up to the bell and then to the surface of the ship through an umbilical that feeds them all of their gas and their heat and their power. And then they'll conduct these operations on the bottom of the sea for eight hour shifts at a time. So it's like a really, there's nothing glamorous about this job. And yet, you know, there were many sat divers that were available to us over the course of

shooting this movie. And some of them were the actual characters that we played in the movie. But the one thing that we found in common with all of them is just how much they loved it, which was very confusing to us. Well, right. Saturation diving, it's one of the most dangerous jobs out there. These divers go down to the bottom of the ocean, they repair oil rigs and gas pipes, and it's to provide the infrastructure of the way people live their lives. And your character, David Yuasa, is based on a real diver, just like you said, it's based on a real diver who made this rescue. You talk to him, it occurs to me,

it might be the first time you're playing a real living person. What was that like? What did you learn from him? To have someone have done something as extraordinary as Dave did. And he doesn't care for any of the accolades. He doesn't care for any of the recognition when he's like the closest thing to a real superhero that there is. He threw himself into the bottom of the sea to rescue his coworker who had been trapped there. So he, you know, wound up finding an unconscious Chris Lemons on the bottom of the North Sea, clipped Chris onto him, and then climbed his umbilical back up to the bell, which is about, you know, it was like more than 50 foot climb, you know,

in the swell, in the, you know, in the sea, which was very turbulent at the time, and successfully recovered him, and then, you know, revived him. Like, that's incredible. That's a miracle. Yeah, he was essentially doing like that what people do in gym class, like climbing the rope. And, you know, he has his coworker whose life he's trying to save, and it's just like the

most high stakes rope climb you could ever imagine. Yeah, that's right. And sad equipment, you know, it's not light. You know, you've got like a 50-pound helmet that you're wearing, and then you've got, you know, your bailout oxygen, which is at least another, you know, 30 pounds. And then you've got weights in your shoes, because, you know, of course, they're not fins.

You're not, like, recreationally diving. Um, you have to have, you know, be boots on the ground and to be able to conduct your work. So, yeah, just it's a lot of weight. What was this shoot like? Were you shooting in extreme conditions? Because you play one of these divers who's at the bottom of the North Sea. As you've described, you know, you're in this little tin can kind of isolated, even when there isn't a crisis. It's this isolated environment.

Did you shoot that way? It was pretty evident, you know, reading the script the first time that it wasn't going to be a cakewalk. You know, we knew that we were going to have to do a significant portion of this film underwater and or in these really, really tight spaces. It was like three, four weeks of kind of diving every day, pretty much starting from square one, learning kind of not only diving every day, pretty much starting from square one, learning kind of not only the basics of scuba and then getting quite proficient at that,

but then also at some point unlearning a lot of the recreational scuba diving kind of mantras and philosophies and then relearning them in a sat capacity. Because again, the equipment is very different. What you're trying to do is very different. And we had an incredible dive team around us that supported us and really kind of made us feel safe every day. But that being said, we had a tank in Malta that was about 40 feet deep. And for, you know, every night we'd go down into the water and we'd communicate ahead of time exactly the shots that we wanted to get. And in a way, you know, obviously challenging, but in a way it was really,

it was really nice to be able to immerse ourselves to that degree, especially in a world where I feel like in this industry there's, it's become increasingly easy to lie to the audience. You know, you've got green screen, you've got VFX, you've now got AI, you know, making it very easy for actors to not really have to do anything or to exist in very comfortable situations. And I think in that environment, it was really nice for us to actually go out and do it.

Actor and writer Simu Liu speaking with Anne-Marie Baldonado. His films include, Shong Chi, The Legend of the Ten Rings, Barbie, and his new film, Last Breath. More after this break, I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. If you're a super fan of Fresh Air with Terry Gross, we have exciting news.

WHYY has launched a Fresh Air Society, a leadership group dedicated to ensuring Fresh Air's legacy. For over 50 years, this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors, artists, actors, and more. As a member of the Fresh Air Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition. Learn more at whyy.org slash Fresh Air Society. I want to play a scene from Barbie. It's near the beginning of the movie. The main Ken, played by Ryan Gosling, has just tried to quote unquote beach. He was trying to run towards the water and he ends up hitting the plastic

wave and he gets knocked down. And you play his number one op Ken, like his nemesis Ken, and you're laughing at him. And, uh, the other Ken in this scene is Kingsley Benadir and Margot Robbie as Barbie is also here too. Let's hear it. Oh looks like this beach was a little too much beach for you Ken. If I wasn't severely injured I would beat you off right now Ken. I'll beach off with you any day Ken. Hold my ice cream Ken. All right Ken you're on. Anyone who wants to beat him off has to beat me off first. All right, Ken, you're on. Anyone who wants to beach him off has to beach me off first. I will beach both of you off at the same time.

Oh, you're gonna beach both of us off? This also doesn't make sense. Ken? Why are you getting a lump on? I'm gonna beach both of us off. Nobody's gonna beach anyone off. Okay? Let's go. Bestie Mulu in the 2023 film Barbie.

How did you come to be part of this film? I did a tape. I met up with Greta and I kind of talked a little bit about my dance background. Greta has kind of an obsession with dance and musical theater and really just spectacle and production, especially as it pertains to men doing it. I think it was something that she really wanted in the movie was, Ken's that kind of were always felt like they were performing to an audience that weren't there. I told her about some of my dance background. I was like on my university hip hop competitive dance team or something,

and she seemed to really love that. In our first few rehearsals, I think Greta came up to me and was like, I think you are going to be like Ryan's main rival, Ken. I was like, that's insane. She's like, yeah, you're going to ride into battle against him on a beach of pink sand and you're going to fight using lacrosse sticks and, you know, pool floaties and things. And I was like, what is this movie credit card week?

Yeah, you do show off your dance moves. And as you mentioned, you did a lot of dance when you were at university. Can you talk about what your dance troupe was like? Yeah. So, you know, freshman year of college, a lot of people are worrying about their studies or their partying or whatever. And for me, I was like meeting up three times a week with the hip hop western dance team. And I think it was where I kind of found my love of performing. Especially, you know, I think growing up, you know, I went to a very academically

inclined high school and really, you know, had to navigate my parents' expectations for most of my childhood. And they were definitely pushing me to be, you know, they were both electrical engineers, definitely wanted me to follow in their footsteps. And if not that, then definitely, you know, medicine, STEM, didn't want any of that for myself. You know, I wanted to kind of, I guess, be out there and be seen and dance to the music and to the beat. You were born in Harbin, China, and you were raised there by your grandparents

while your parents were trying to start a life in Canada. What do you remember about that time, those early years? You know, I remember flashes and feelings, but I do remember we had this tiny little ramshackle apartment in Harbin. There wasn't running water for many parts of the day. The water wasn't drinkable, so we had to boil everything that we drank. And there was no hot water, so anytime anyone had to take a bath, it was always kind of

a bit of a thing. Although for me, I had no reference point. I just thought that that was how people lived. But I also, more than all of that, I remember this overwhelming sense of safety and belonging, you know, with my grandparents, my yeye and my nai nai. I was very, very close with them.

You know, we just, they were my parents for all intents and purposes. And they had always tried to tell me that I had a mom and a dad that were abroad and that one day I would join them. But I don't think these words necessarily mean anything to like a three or a four-year-old. It was very difficult for me to grasp that. And when my dad did show up one day, I was about four and a half, to bring me back to Canada with him.

He was very uncomfortable for me and a lot for me to accept because I had my family. And I loved my grandparents more than anything. And my dad at that point was a stranger. I very, very vividly remember watching him step through the door for the first time. And when you're a kid and all these adults are looking at you like you're supposed to be reacting a certain way, I very clearly remember my grandparents looking at me and saying, this is your dad, like go to him. And I just remember being like, I don't want to.

Yes, you're picked up by your dad when you're almost five, and you move to live with your parents in Canada. What do you remember about those early years, living with your parents who you didn't really know and trying to acclimate yourself to this new country? It is a couple of funny things. I remember not understanding English. I remember being brought to daycare my very first day and just crying my eyes out the entire time because nobody was speaking. I couldn't understand anybody. And I remember that's

what it was for the longest time. And I know I was learning English through flash cards and my parents were trying to teach me. And then one day it just kind of clicked. And I'm sure that's not how it actually happened, right? Like we remember things very differently as children. But it honestly felt to me like one day I woke up and like my brain had switched between thinking in Mandarin and thinking in English. And I remember my parents were very confused because I think one day I just stopped speaking Chinese to them. But, you know, once I made the switch, I really kind of embraced it. And I remember those early years just that we were very, very poor.

You know, my parents were living off of scholarship money until they graduated. My parents were doing their post-graduate studies. And once they were able to get jobs, you know, our living conditions slowly started to improve, but for the longest time, like, this was a very unglamorous foray into Canada. You know, a lot of our furniture was kind of picked off the street. Yeah, I don't know.

When I look back, it really gives me, I think, a unique perspective because I do feel like I've lived pretty much every single rung of the socioeconomic ladder. And I know what it feels like not to have running water. You know, and then I know what it feels like to be, you know, to live in a place as wonderful as Canada. But, you know, you know, starting off at the very bottom as well. In your memoir you write about how difficult it was for you growing up as a teenager with your parents and their unrealistic expectations for you.

What was so hard about your relationship back then in your teens? Yeah, I think when you have parents who weren't necessarily present in your formative years and in the first five years of life. Like, that's when a lot of your personality is solidified, you know. And when you don't have that bond, there's bound to be a little bit of distance. And you know, I was effectively adopted by my own biological parents. You know, on the other side of that, for my parents and to their defense, like, they also weren't necessarily in the rhythm of childcare.

It's a never-ending job in and of itself. And so I think to have one day no kid and then overnight have a five-year-old just dropped into your life, I think, is a pretty violent change. And so, yeah, I mean, up there was definitely some tougher times for us to get along. And it really came to a head when I was a teenager, when I went through puberty. I think I was actually pretty good in the beginning of being the perfect kind of immigrant kid and getting good grades. But then I got older and hormones happened and of course every kid starts to get to a place where they're questioning their parents. And for me, I knew that I was being pushed in a certain way.

And I really like, I wanted to do sports and I wanted to have a girlfriend and do all these normal people things that my parents, you know, being from a different generation, a different culture, were like, why are you concerned about these things? You should be focused on your studies. And it really just came down to just very, very different values. Your memoir is this beautiful, I think, way

to try to reconcile what a lot of Asian-American and Asian Canadian children of immigrants go through, that tension between knowing that your immigrant parents gave up so much for you, but they put all this pressure on you to succeed in a way that they understand. And it's not open to other ways of life. And I feel like you telling the story of your grandparents and your parents and your own story, trying to understand what they went through, it was like you were trying to repair

like the hurt across generations. The way you do that by explaining their lives and their hardships and like what they came, you know, to parenting with as their background. Can you quickly describe what their teen years were like? Because it's this contrast to your teen years, obviously. Yeah, for sure. You know, my parents grew up in the midst

of the Cultural Revolution in China, which, you know, between 1966 and 1976 was a very, you know, a very tumultuous time for a lot of the people living in China. It was very hard for a lot of reasons, but one of the things about the Cultural Revolution was that college studies all across the country were kind of shuttered. So instead of going to college,

you would kind of go to work in the fields. That was a way to teach Chinese youths about proletariat life. And so, yeah, my mom is a couple years older than my dad, which I know if she hears this, she will kill me. But she had graduated high school and was fully working in the fields. And my dad was kind of just on the verge of graduating when actually Mao Zedong died. And his successor kind of reinstated the college pipeline and the entrance, the national entrance exam. And so because of that, you know, my mom was able to go to college. You know, she was studying for the standard test called the Gaokao.

But she was studying for that every day after the Gaokao. But she was studying for that every day after working 12 hours in the field. And my dad was lucky enough kind of to go straight from high school to college, to university. And that was where they met. And from there, they fell in love, they got married, started to live in Beijing together, and became very enamored and very fixated on this idea of studying abroad. And then the rest is history. I want to ask you about Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. And Shang-Chi is the first Asian character to be a lead in the Marvel universe.

The film was released in 2021. Let's play a scene from the film and as with a lot of Marvel films, it's kind of challenging to set up the story. But when we meet you at the beginning of the film, you play Sean, who lives in San Francisco and spends a lot of time with his friend, Katie, played by Awkwafina. You're attacked by assassins on a bus, and it comes out that your character has a secret identity. Your father was an immortal warrior,

and your mother was also a magical fighter, and when your character was still a child, your mom gets murdered, and your father wants you to avenge her death. Instead, your character flees to the US, it's now a decade later, and the father is looking for you and trying to call you back.

Now, in this scene, it's your character explaining the story to Awkwafina. I know this is a lot to dump on you. to aquafina. I know this is a lot to dump on you. I'm sorry about your mom. I should also probably mention that my name's not technically Sean. What? What is it?

It's... Sean-G. Sean-G? No, Sean-G. Sean-G. Sean. Sean. Sean.

S-H-N-G. Sean. Sean? Yeah. You change your name from Sean to to shon yeah i don't i wonder how your father found you i was 15 years old all right what is what is your name change logic you're going into hiding and your name is michael you come on change it up hi shul that's that's not what happens it's like hi my name is gina i'm gonna go into hiding my new name is jina

That's not what happened. It's like, hi, my name's Gina. I'm gonna go into hiding. My new name is Gina. That's a scene from the film, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. The story goes that before you got this role, you tweeted at Marvel about how they needed to have an Asian superhero.

Sure. You did this? I did, yeah, yeah. I was very chronically online as a young adult. Yeah, and you know, I would have these moments at 3 a.m. where I'd get intensely frustrated about my career and you know, I was starting to have all these kind of rudimentary thoughts about representation. But of course, yeah, I was watching Marvel movies. I loved Marvel movies and I was just like, when are we going to have ours? You know, when are we going

to, when are we going to have an Asian version of Thor or Captain America? When are we going to have our superhero Avenger guy that we could look up to, you know, or girl? By the way, I have to say, you did a fantastic job setting up the story of Shang-Chi. I really, I was blown away by how succinctly you captured the story of the Wenwu and the Shang-Chi of it all. And then the clip that you played, I really, it's so funny listening to it without the picture, it just reminded me just how talented of an improviser Nora Awkwafinaina is a really, really good friend of mine today still, and

just brought back a lot of amazing memories. So thank you for sharing that. Well, yeah, that's it. Watching this film back, you know, it's so funny. You two are very funny together. And of course, it's this action movie, but there are also all these parallels between your character and your life. You know, there's the idea of parents wanting you to be something or not.

Of course, in the case of the movie, it's about being an assassin, but still. And then there are also these ideas, as we heard in the scene, like these ideas of trying to assimilate and trying to blend in. Was that one of the things that was attractive about this movie? Um, I mean, yeah, look, I would have done this movie for free. I would have paid to do this movie, let's just be clear. But no, I remember auditioning over the course of auditioning for this movie, you know, and in my mind I immediately go to, oh, are they going to cast somebody from Asia?

Are they going to cast a national champion martial artist or something? What is the story that they want to tell here? Didn't necessarily feel like, immediately apparent that it was going to be the kind of story that it was. But then Destin Daniel Cretton being attached as director, I think, informed a lot of the direction that I think the studio wanted to go with it, which, you know, Destin Daniel Cretton being attached as director, I think, informed a lot of the direction that I think the studio wanted to go with it,

which, you know, I'm not gonna say was an Asian-American story, because I do think that the movie is for everyone, but, you know, it's just really incredible that Destin was able to find a way in and to, you know, tell the story about a flawed, but ultimately human character who, you know, is running away from who he is and running away from his parents and eventually chooses

to embrace it, but on his terms. Simu Liu, thank you so much for speaking with me today. Thank you so much for having me. Simu Liu stars in the new film Last Breath. He spoke with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Baldonado. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our Technical Director and Engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challener, Susan Yacundi, and Anna Bauman. Our Digital Media Producer is

Molly C.B. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Moseley.