Fresh Air - Best Of: Comic Michelle Buteau / Emily Nussbaum On Reality TV

Episode Date: July 6, 2024

Comedian Michelle Buteau stars in the new comedy Babes, which follows best friends as they take different paths toward motherhood. It was a role Buteau had to be talked into doing by her real life friend and co-star Ilana Glazer because, at the time, she was already in the thick of living out her character's life as the mother of twin babies. Also, we'll talk with New Yorker staff writer Emily Nussbaum about working conditions for cast members on the popular reality TV show Love is Blind. And Ken Tucker Rock critic Ken Tucker revisits Steely Dan's 1974 album Pretzel Logic, on its 50th anniversary.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Tanya Mosley with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, comedian Michelle Buteau. She stars in the new comedy Babes, which follows best friends as they take different paths towards motherhood.

It's a role that Buteau had to be talked into doing by her real-life friend and co-star Alana Glazer, because at the time, she was already in the thick of living out her character's life as the mother of twin babies. Also, we'll talk with New Yorker staff writer Emily Nussbaum about working conditions for cast members on the popular reality Netflix show Love is Blind. The contestants don't get to see who they're dating until they choose each other and agree to get married. And rock critic Ken Tucker revisits Steely Dan's 1974 album Pretzel Logic on its 50th anniversary. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry has our first interview. I'll let her introduce it. What do reality show cast members face that viewers don't get to see? For example, the hit reality TV show Love is Blind. That show follows the contestants as they choose a spouse by talking one-on-one with 15 people without ever having seen them, not even a photo. It's a little more complicated than that, and we'll describe it more in a minute. Working conditions for those cast members have led to accusations against the show's production companies, including false imprisonment and abuse. Several lawsuits have been filed. Two former cast members have formed a group to help connect

reality show cast members to legal and mental health resources. My guest Emily Nussbaum writes about this in a recent article called Is Love is Blind a Toxic Workplace? The article is also about the restrictive contracts, including nondisclosure agreements, that cast members must sign. Fans don't usually know about behind-the-scenes problems because the non-disclosure agreements prevent cast members from revealing them without the risk of a hefty financial penalty. Nussbaum says the contracts for Love is Blind are similar to ones on other reality TV shows. Emily Nussbaum is also the author of a new book about the invention of reality TV

called Cue the Sun, which we'll talk about a little later. She's a staff writer at The New Yorker and a former TV critic for the magazine. In 2016, she won a Pulitzer Prize for criticism. Emily Nussbaum, welcome back to Fresh Air. The book is great. I love your new article in The New Yorker. It answers so many questions I have about what really happens behind the scenes and what has to be kept secret. So let's start by talking about that article and talking about reality show contracts and non-disclosure agreements. So here's how the hosts of Love is Blind describe the show to the new cast members. And that's how each season starts. So the hosts of the show are Nick Lachey and his wife, Vanessa Lachey. Now, Nick Lachey, he's just like Mr. Reality Show. He's the

former lead singer of the boy band 98 Degrees. He was a star of the reality series Newlyweds with his then wife, Jessica Simpson. And Vanessa is a former Miss Teen USA and hosted Miss Teen USA and Miss Universe pageants. So here they are describing the show to new cast members. Well, over the next 10 days, you'll finally have the chance to fall in love based solely on who you are on the inside, not for your looks, your race, your background, or your income. And if you fall in love with someone and want to spend the rest of your life with them, you'll get engaged. And then you get to see them for the very first time. And then the two of you leave here with a future wedding date in four weeks. Where you'll make the biggest decision of your life.

Will you say I do to the person you fell in love with right here, sight unseen? Or will you choose to walk away forever? Is love truly blind? Well, we hope that you prove that it is. Yes!

Pots are now open. Okay, Emily, that sounds kind of idealized. Like, you're going to choose your life partner not based on their looks or their race, but who they really are inside. How does that actually play out? What's the reality? It's funny. The people who make the show, Chris

Cullen, the creator, and the producers call the show The Experiment. And they sell it both to the audience and to the cast members as something that's better than other reality dating shows. That's something that is a truly high-minded attempt as they were presenting it as a way to get beyond stuff. It's true that you can talk to people about those things in the pods, which have a, there are these cozy little settings in which you are divided from the person you're talking to, and you're supposed to just bond with them spiritually. I have to say, there are a lot of problems with this show. There's an abusive, exploitative element. There's work conditions that are terrible. There are several lawsuits. But talking to people on the show, the one thing I will say is that a lot of people who go on to it sincerely are going

on, at least to some degree, to try to fall in love. And even some of the people who have genuine and serious complaints about how this show is made, which frankly replicates the way that a lot of modern reality television is made, they did fall in love in the pods. Like, I don't think the issue with it is that it's crazy to fall in love with a stranger. People do that online. I think the problem with it is the way the show is run and, frankly, the way that almost all modern reality shows are run. Dating shows, I think, specifically have a lot of these dark qualities

that viewers and fans of them don't know about. So explain a little bit more of the premise of Love is Blind. Here's how Love is Blind works. A group of people are cast, 15 men and 15 women, and they live separately from one another. And every day they are sent into these pods that are sort of these cozy capsules where they sit. It's kind of like genie's bottle where you sit on a sofa and there's somebody on the other side of the capsule and you're divided by a wall and you talk all day long. They sit in these capsules on the sofa, curled up, just talking all day, like from early in the morning, often until quite late at night, drinking, sometimes having snacks. Basically, the idea is they do this for 10 days. And during that

period, a big chunk of the people in the cast fall in love with somebody. They gradually narrow down who they're interested in. A subset of those people get engaged and then at that point, that group of people leaves the pods and they meet the person physically like they've never seen them and they're already engaged. It's called the reveal. After the reveal, the set of couples that are engaged goes on a vacation together that's filmed by cameramen and by audio people to sort of capture their little honeymoon period together. And then finally, they go back to their hometown. Everybody's cast from the same hometown. It's in different cities each season. And at that point, they plan their wedding. They meet their family and friends. And ultimately, they go down the aisle and they have a subset of people have gotten legally married on the show. I mean, there have been several lasting marriages. There have been people who got pregnant on the show. But a lot of couples break up as well.

And that's the way the show is laid out. For fans of the show, I think the appeal of it is its intensity and the fact that the stakes are real. They're actually getting married. So some people go to the altar and at the altar decline to get married. So I want to play a clip of that. So here's a clip from season six at the altar. And the bride, A.D. is her name. She's so excited. She expresses her love for her fiance, Clay, while she's at the altar. You know, her family, they have, you know, they're so excited that she's getting married. She's always wanted to do this.

It's like a dream scenario. And she takes her vows and says, I do. And then the person presiding over the ceremony turns to A.D.'s fiancee, Clay, reads him his vows. And here's what happens. So here's what we're going to hear. We're going to hear the minister's last few words, reciting the vows, and then we'll hear the dramatic suspense music as we wait for Clay to say whether he says, I do or not. And then we'll hear what Clay has to say. In sickness and in health health all of your days This has been the best process. AD, I love you.

I don't think it's responsible for me to say I do. But I want you to know that I'm rocking with you. I just don't think it's responsible for me to say I do at this point when I still need work. I still need to get to the point where I'm 100% in, and I'm not going to have you over here thinking that it's not going to work. I'm going to put the work in for you, and we'll go through this together. I don't care what nobody says.

I know fully I'm not ready for marriage, and you deserve the best, and if I'm not ready to give that 100%, I won't go there with you when I'm not ready. And I appreciate you, and I know that you will fight for me and will let it work. I know, but I can't say yes right now. I'm sorry, A.D.

But why does it matter, like, with the timeline? Why does that matter? Claire, don't do that. I know. You'll get it. Just to clarify, that's A.D. crying in the background, not laughing. Okay. totally humiliated at the altar. It's kind of like voyeuristic fun to watch that kind of thing, but it's really at somebody's expense. If it's an experiment in human intimacy, as the producers describe it, why humiliate somebody at the altar like that? I think that it's part of a larger set of dating shows. And I think the things that you heard,

including the extreme emotionality and the feeling of betrayal, are embedded in, yes, the reason that people watch these shows. To some extent, the reason that people go on these shows is as this kind of extreme sport emotionally. Yes, there's cruelty to that. It's also part of a tradition that goes way back in history. I mean, there have been dating shows and marriage shows on radio. There's the newlywed game and the dating game. And the modern shows, including The Bachelor, all include the theatrical conventions that are part of that, including the serious music and the sort of money shot of dating shows, which is the sound of somebody crying in heartbreak. That was the payoff on The Bachelor. It's the payoff on Love is Blind.

I mean, that moment of what feels like authentic and extreme emotionality, whether it actually is authentic or not, is, I think, part of the reason that people watch these shows. But it's also part of the reason that people look down on people who go on these shows, because it's that display of extreme raw emotion. And I think that's at the center of both the appeal and the ethical question of these shows. We're listening to Terry's interview with Emily Nussbaum. Her article, Is Love is Blind a Toxic Workplace?, is published in The New Yorker.

Her new book is called Cue the Sun, the Invention of Reality TV. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. So let's get to the contracts and the nondisclosure agreements. Tell us some of the things you learned in the standard contract for Love is Blind. I think the main thing to understand is that this isn't about Love is Blind. This is about contracts for almost all reality shows. The contracts people sign, and they go way back.

They're based on older contracts that go back to Survivor. They basically require anybody who appears on the show to sign an extremely aggressive nondisclosure agreement that says not just that they can't spoil the show and not just that they can't complain if they are misrepresented on the show, if things are edited that didn't happen. They also just can't talk about the making of the show. They can't talk about what their producer did, if their producer lied to them, if their producer made them cry by asking them numerous personal questions based on their psychiatric evaluation forms and then took that crying out of context in the edit, they can't talk about the hours they work. They can't talk about any of that or they may get sued.

The other thing is that if they do have complaints about abuse or exploitation, which comes up for some cast members, that has to be dealt with in private arbitration. So essentially, it keeps the public, including fans of these shows, from understanding the actual conditions in which they're made. And most of the time when people talk about their experiences on the show, they're not sued. But the one person who was sued recently, who I wrote about in my article, was sued for $4 million. And I think that sends a significant message. There are multiple motives for people not to speak out about any of this. And frankly, these conditions and these contracts are absolutely standard for the industry. I think people who watch the show not only don't know about that, but they often just don't sympathize with it.

The dominant feeling is, you know, you decided to go on it. So anything that happens, you should have expected it. I think that shows a lack of compassion. But also, I think it shows a lack of understanding of exactly what the conditions are that we're dealing with here. of lawsuits against Love is Blind. And the stories themselves are a little complicated, but can you tell us what the charges are that have been leveled against the show? There's a range of lawsuits. There's a class action lawsuit that has to do with labor conditions, people being underpaid, underfed, having alcohol pushed on them. That was recently settled. There's another lawsuit that has to do with accusations not only of false imprisonment, but the person who filed the lawsuit said that she was sexually assaulted by her fiance in Mexico, told the production about it, and that they didn't do anything and actually pressured her to go through a final scene, which was essentially scripted. It's a terrible suit, and it's in the process of going through the courts. And the third lawsuit that I talk about has to do with a woman,

Renee Poche, who was on season five, who went all the way to the altar, and then her story was not shown on the show. She's not the only one that this has happened to. But ultimately, after that came out, she started talking about it in public, and she's being sued for violating her NDA. She felt like it was a bait and switch. The fiance that she ended up with was unemployed, an alcoholic, doing drugs. She found threatening, abusive. And when she spoke about this, they sued her for $4 million. So in aggregate, all of these lawsuits are dealing with a mixture of things. The extremely oppressive contracts, trying to nullify them, dealing with

abuse and exploitation on the show, and dealing with the labor conditions, the idea of it as a set. And I also want to just say, those lawsuits that have to do with Love is Blind, they're one aspect of a new movement to try to redefine the work of working on a reality show. And they don't only have to do with Love is Blind, addressing terrible labor conditions and terrible legal conditions and treating these actually as a kind of a job and the people who go on these shows and who work on these shows as worthy of decent treatment. Well, let's move on to a suit filed by Renee Poche. She had agreed to get married to Carter Wall before the reveal, before they got to see each other. And after the reveal, she found out that his phone was turned off because he hadn't paid his bills. He had no fixed address. He was kind of homeless at the time. He was a heavy drinker. He took a lot of Adderall. You talk to a lot of members of the crew from that season, season five, who said things like they thought he was racist, that he used different kinds of slurs against gay people. So when she found some of this out, she wanted to call off the wedding. So what was the producer's reaction to that? Essentially, I think the message that she got was that she should keep going because as in that

clip that you played before, part of the show is that at the end of it, you go to the altar and you can say no to it. So it just kept rolling forward. And a lot of people thought she was going to be the star of that season and that she should trust the process. At a certain point, she definitely pulled away and she refused to live in the apartment that the production company had set

up for them to live in. She felt threatened by him. She was only going to film scenes with him when she went over there to be with him. But ultimately, they did move forward to the altar. I mean, the bigger deal is that Renee wasn't allowed to talk about what happened on the show. She wasn't actually featured on the season. She and Carter were treated as kind of side characters. Their story was cut down very much at the last minute. And once she began to talk about what Carter was like, that she had felt threatened by him, that she felt pressured to move forward with the show, that's when she got slammed with the lawsuit. Nobody's allowed to talk about the negative aspects of what they experienced on the show because there is a threat of these lawsuits. Generally, people haven't been sued.

Renee was. And I feel that that was a message to everybody. If you experience anything that's exploitative or abusive while making a reality show, not just Love is Blind, but any show, and you speak out about it, you're at risk of getting sued. What's it been like for you as a reporter on this piece and as the author of your new book about reality shows to find out what really happens on reality shows. When on most reality shows, it's not just Love is Blind, you sign non-disclosure agreements. You're not allowed to speak about it with reporters or anybody. One thing I found while I was working on this piece was about a workplace category for

reality cast members in terms of Hollywood unions. They're called bona fide amateurs, which is to say they're not scripted performers that would be in SAG, like, you know, actresses, and they're not unscripted performers that would be in SAG, like, say, TV hosts, things like that. But they're also not the subjects of documentary who are in a different category and have a little control. They're essentially like contestants on game shows. They're designated as a category that is sort of non-official and has no protections or rights of any kind. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today or visit wise.com.

T's and C's apply. Kind. And so what I was writing about in this piece was the first glimmerings of a movement to try to win protections and also just to try to educate the general population about how these shows are made and what these issues are, and to improve things. Because I think some of the people at the center of this movement, it's not like they're saying you couldn't make an ethical reality show. They're saying that right now, the way reality shows are made is non-ethical, really both for cast and crew. They're non-unionized sets. People don't have a lot of rights.

And the conventions in history of the genre have a lot of ugly things about them. Emily Nussbaum, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you for having me. Emily Nussbaum speaking with Terry Gross. Nussbaum is the author of the new book, Cue the Sun, The Invention of Reality TV. Her article, Is Love is Blind a Toxic Workplace?, is published in The New Yorker, where she's a staff writer and former TV critic. Rock critic Ken Tucker has noticed that several significant albums are marking their 50th anniversary, and he's decided to devote a summer series to celebrating a wide variety of

them. First up is Steely Dan's Pretzel Logic. Released in 1974, the band's third album yielded a big hit single, Ricky Don't Lose That Number. For reasons he's about to explain, Ken thinks Pretzel Logic is Steely Dan's best album. Here's their song, Any Major Dude Will Tell You. I've never seen you looking so bad, my funky one. You tell me that your superfine mind has come undone Any major dude with half a heart surely will tell you, my friend Any minor world that breaks apart falls together again When the demon is at your door

In the morning it won't be there no more. Any major dude will tell you. Any major dude will tell you. Cooly detached, ironic, and arch, Steely Dan has always stood apart from their contemporaries. The songs written by singer- keyboardist Donald Fagan and guitarist-bassist Walter Becker didn't sound like what was popular at the time. This was not heroic rock and roll in the manner of Rod Stewart or Bad Company. Steely Dan's music of profound uneasiness erased any trace of macho egotism, and that's another reason it continues to sound as fresh and inviting as it does.

It's a vaguer's life, said the Queen of Spain, but don't tell it to a poor man. Cause he's got to kill for every thrill, the best he can. Everywhere around me, I see jealousy and mayhem because no man have all that peace of mind to carry them. Well, I don't

really care if it's wrong or if it's right, but until my ship comes in, I live night by night. In 1974, Pretzel Logic found Steely Dan at a crossroads. Their first two albums had done what Fagan and Becker had set out to do, establish the band as a viable

business proposition. Having proved they could make hits, such as Reelin' in the Years and Do It Again, they were able to take more creative control of their career. Fagan and Becker would no longer need to answer to record company bosses about their obtuse lyrics or justify their intricate arrangements. With Pretzel Logic, they began a new quest for studio perfectionism that would carry on through the rest of the act's existence. ¶¶ ¶¶ Sound just like a record on a photograph. Those days are gone forever over a long time ago. Oh yeah. That's the album's title song, a blues tune that says trying to become a star is a fool's errand.

In retrospect, you can hear the song as a statement of goals. Instead of trying to, quote, sound just like a record on the phonograph, the touring that's mentioned is what Becker and Fagan wanted to stop doing. After this album, Steely Dan wouldn't perform in public again for decades. Indeed, after Pretzel Logic, there was no Steely Dan band. It was just Fagin and Becker as creatures of the recording studio, employing an endless variety of esteemed session musicians to execute their tricky compositions. We hear you're leaving, that's okay I thought our little wild time had just begun I guess you kind of scared yourself, you turn and run

But if you have a change of heart Ricky, don't lose that number You don't want to call nobody else Send it off in a letter to yourself Ricky, don't lose that number Send it off in a letter to yourself. Ricky don't lose that number. It's the only one you own. You might use it if you feel better. When you get home Becker and Fagan's ceaseless pursuit of pristine perfection would, in later years, sometimes result in bloodless sterility.

Yes, I'm thinking of you, 1980 album gaucho. But on Pretzel Logic, they were just insecure enough to make sure they included a radio-friendly single. Ricky Don't Lose That Number peaked at number four, while showcasing a range they would never display again. The song With a Gun is a Steely Dan version of a western, more Roy Rogers than The Wild Bunch. Through With Buzz is the shortest song they ever recorded and contains the ultimate Steely Dan sad hipster couplet, quote, You know I'm cool, yes, I feel all right, except when I'm in my room and it's late at night.

Two cuts touch on Becker and Fagan's love of jazz. Parker's band is one of the rare Dan songs whose lyric is straightforward. It's a salute to the saxophone great Charlie Parker. And East St. Louis Toodle-oo is a cover of a jaunty 1920s instrumental by Duke Ellington. The The cover of Pretzel Logic is a black-and-white photograph of a pretzel vendor snapped in New York City's Central Park on a cold, slushy winter day. In the Pretzel Logic context of this album, that harsh image is a perfect analog for the paradox of Steely Dan. They were hitmakers who acted like obscure cult artists, Rock critic Ken Tucker. Steely Dan's album Pretzel Logic was released 50 years ago. Coming up, comedian Michelle Buteau.

She stars in the new movie Babes. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. In the days after September 11, 2001, Michelle Buteau made a life-changing move. She was working overnight as a TV news editor when she decided to take a leap and do stand-up comedy. For years, her co-workers had been telling her she was funny, but it would take one of the most tragic events in U.S. history to give her the courage to take the step into comedy. Twenty-three years later, Michelle Buteau is booked and busy. She has her own show on Netflix, Survival of the Thickest, a semi-autobiographical comedy that will soon enter its second season. And this summer, she stars in the new film Babes with Alana Glazer. The two,

who are friends in real life, play best friends on their journey to motherhood. In this scene, Eden, played by Glazer, has taken several pregnancy tests and can't believe the results keep showing up positive. Her best friend Dawn, played by Michelle Buteau, has recently given birth herself, and as she's pumping for breast milk, she gives her friend a dose of reality. Alana Glazer speaks first. I'm thinking maybe, just maybe,

I am a pregnant person. I'm 28 for 28. I could do a 29th. Yeah, no. You are clearly pregnant. Okay. I don't know how this could have happened. I've had sex once since my last period, but it was on my period.

So? So you can't get pregnant on your period. Girl. Girl? Girl. Girl. Girl. Girl. I guess you can. Girl, stop. Girl, you stop. We went to the same school. We learned the same s***. Come on. No, you can't. Ma'am, I'm a doctor. You are a dentist. That was Alana Glazer and Michelle Buteau in the new movie

Babes out now. Buteau's Netflix series Survival of the Thickest, which is loosely based on her memoir of the same name, has earned seven NAACP Image Award nominations. Buteau is also the co-host of the podcast Adulting, and her 2021 stand-up special Welcome to Butopia is on Netflix and Comedy Central. And Buteau has just recorded her next Netflix comedy special at Radio City Music Hall, and she's the first woman to do it. Michelle Buteau, welcome to Fresh Air. Hi, thank you. Wow. How does it feel? I mean, this is, you just completed this special at Radio City. How was it? It was one of those moments, as I like to say, where, you know, Netflix is like, let's do a special. I'm like, let's. And I'm sort of scouting New York City venues because I love New York City

with like from the root of the tutor. It's my home. And so I went to a couple of different venues and I, you know, Radio City was kind of like that episode in Say Yes to the Dress where it's like I know I can't afford this dress but I just want to see it on. Did you know when you went that you might be the first woman? No no clue no because I know that other females have performed there but in terms of taping a special, when I got there, in terms of taping a special, when I got there, I was like, who else has filmed here? And they were like, oh, no one. Excuse me? No other females? No, no, no, no other females. You'd be the first. And then, you know, I got that feeling, like a little tingling. And it wasn't because I had too

much coffee. It was like like it was the spirit it was the spirit moving me and saying I have to do this this is this is bigger picture this is not just about me I want to talk a little bit about this new movie that you're in Babes which is now in theaters in it you play Dawn Dawn is an exhausted mother who works as a dentist and she lives in a townhouse on the upper west Side with her husband, Marty, played by Hasan Minhaj. And at the start of the film, you've just given birth to your second child, and your best friend is Eden, played by Alana Glazer. In this scene I'm about to play, your character Dawn is in labor, and she and her best friend Eden have stopped for lunch at this nice New York City restaurant. And Dawn's water, your water, has already broken.

And you're leaking. Something that a server notices after he serves a whole table full of food. Let's listen. I would say, let me know if you need anything else, but this is literally all the foods we have. Don't go far, though. You might need seconds. Okay. No problem. And, oh, I'm sorry. It looks like you had a little spill there. Oh, no this is literally all the foods we have, so. Don't go far, though. You might need seconds. Okay. No problem.

And, oh, I'm sorry. It looks like you had a little spill there. Oh, no, no, no. It's just some drippage. I'm in labor. Congratulations to me. In the movies, it's like this monsoon. But in real life, it can be trickless.

The water will keep coming. Don't worry about cleaning it up. Okay. No, I definitely will need to tell my boss that. Just because it's fluids and it's people eating. Who knows what's in the fluid? What do you do to Gordon Ramsay if my... Get out of here.

Why do you hate women? No. I need more chocolate mousse. I'll get that. Thank you. Okay. Bye. That was my guest, Michelle Buteau,

starring alongside Alana Glazer in the new movie, Babes. Michelle, I think one reviewer said, it's a comedy rooted in the right for pregnant women to be gross. That was definitely no holding back. I mean, there was definitely no holding back on what happens to mothers in their bodies. It's so funny. So just a little Easter egg. That waiter is Josh Verbinovitz, who co-wrote the movie with Alana. I wondered.

When they wrote the movie together, Alana was pregnant and Josh's wife was pregnant. And so they hadn't fully gotten to that other side of the mountain of exhaustion. But it's so funny. I've heard a lot of words like gross and raunchy. And Alana and I just look at each other like, or honest. You know, even when my mom, at the end of my special taping at Radio City Music Hall, when she came to me, it was tears in her eyes. And she wore her good church wig with the lace front, you know,

hugging me and all her cheap sequences, getting caught on my suit. And I'm like, okay. And she's like, I'm so proud of you. I'm like, thank you. You should be. And she's like, it was raunchy, but it was good. I'm just like, see, that's the thing. When a woman is being honest, it's raunchy. But when a man is being honest, oh, ain't he telling the truth? You know, one of the things I noticed, it's funny you bring up the men in the film, because one of the things I noticed was that the film doesn't talk badly about men, though, as well. It's a movie rooted in these female relationships and community, and the men, for the most part, are pretty supportive and loving.

Yeah, because men can be supportive and loving. They can, and they are in my life, in Alana's life, in a lot of people's lives. I think it's been a very easy joke to punch down on everyone. But what happens when we lift each other up and really talk about what life really looks like? It can still be funny. It can still be entertaining. It can still be entertaining. You can still make money. And I think, you know, I don't know people, especially comedians, not even new comedians, comedians have been doing it for a while, kind zip code you want to live in, healthy children, and still be exhausted. Exhausted. I love that they never named postpartum. They just kind of showed you what life could be like, you know. And so I just love the movie so much. And I think it's so important.

I heard at first, though, you said no to the role. Zia Mosley, why you put me out there like that? Come on, I taught you. How dare you? Well, you got to tell the story because, I mean, I actually think that it's all part of it in motherhood, right? So I was prepping for season one of Survival of the Thickest. I'm in my 40s. I am playing a 38-year-old. I have three-year-old twins, a loving relationship with my husband and my body. There's a lot to be taken care of.

Also, I'm the only child. If I don't call my parents every day, they're like, what happened? What happened to you? Right? And so I have a lot to do, and I don't want to mess it up, and I want to be present for everyone and everything and Alana's like but I don't see anyone else doing this role but you and I was like I am a I'm I'm a tired mom of two and I'm working a lot she's like yeah that's the role this is why she's amazing too and having friends that do what you do because she's like as a former creator starring in and showrunner, you don't have to be present for X, Y, and Z.

So wouldn't it be amazing to have a hit show and a movie at the same time? I'm like, of course. And she kind of, like, forced me into it. And then when Pamela Adlon was attached as a director, I'm like, oh, I really got to do it because I love these women too much. So I'm glad I did it. I'm glad I did it. Michelle, when you first started doing stand-up, what were your sets like? What kinds of things were you joking about?

You know, I think when you first start stand-up, you say things that you wish you could say on a microphone, and so it was, like, a lot of self-deprecating things, which is what women usually, you know, go towards, and then cussing, but a lot of it was, like, kind of, like, owning my sexuality and being, like, I'm big-boned and what, you know, and, um, you know, and then, like, one of the first jokes i wrote was oh my god rides at disneyland remind me of my ex-boyfriend three hours of waiting for a two-minute ride i think it was pretty good okay um and then the other joke was just like, people always ask me how I got so light. And I'm like, hello, it's called colonialism. And, you know, you could really make that joke anywhere. I've made that joke a lot in you, one of the first autofills is Michelle Buteau ethnicity. People have really been trying to figure out what you are. Yeah. And somehow somewhere somebody has said that my dad is half Lebanese.

He is not. But that's hilarious. I mean, I have talked about my dad's from Haiti. He's from a town called Cai. But like, you know, if you want to pay for my 23andMe, let's go. But it is always so funny, too, because I just came back from Jamaica yesterday. My mom's from Jamaica. And I remember growing up, I'd tell people I'm Jamaican and Haitian. And being a light-skinned person with like freckles. They're like, what? In America. And they're like, you don't look Jamaican or Haitian. I'm like, have you been there? They're like, no. And I'm like, how do you know what the people look like

if you've never been? I'm just wondering because you're someone who is so body positive. You seem to love your body. You genuinely enjoy yourself. Were you always this way or was it a process for you to get there? Oh my God. Can you imagine if I just had the confidence of Lizzo at the Grammys in first grade? No, not at all. It was a process. And that's why when people talk to me, I mean, men, women, and non-binary royalty, when they talk to me about their body and learning to love their body, that's a process.

It's just like learning to eat well or figure out what kind of exercise works for you. It's a process. Unfortunately, unfortunately, with age, it gets better because then you realize it's not you. There's a bigger problem. It's this unrealistic patriarchal standard of beauty that we'll never live up to. Things are getting a bit better. I mean, I can't believe there's like plus size clothing because I truly always look like a Greek widow. It was always black. And like, I love black, no shade to black, but it's like, are those the only choices? And so it's all the

things. It is taking care of your body, your mental health, your physical health. It is the company you keep, the food you eat. It is all these things. It's what you listen to. I mean, that's all a part of your process. And so even with my mom, who I love, I love my mom, and my mom loves me. We are, as the kids would say gucci lol who's listening to this but you know even when i was playing a sold-out beacon theater show last year i showed her my

outfit and she said i'd prefer something a little bit more age appropriate because you're almost 50 I'm like, what? What? Still? No. That's her job, right? I know. Is it? And so I'm just like, yeah. Even the people that love you will say something about your body. But the most important opinion you will ever have is the one you have about yourself.

So you really have to believe that. And if that means cutting people off for a little while, you know, and having people around you that just love on you, then do that. You know, I'm just thinking about those early days when you were doing stand up when you were going to all sorts of places, really small towns and laundromats and strip clubs. How did people take in your brand of humor and who you were, who you are during those early days when you're going into some places that may have not ever seen someone like you? This is kind of what comedians have to have.

It was about me leaving my five block radius, the comforts of my own home, you know, taking three flights to the middle of Iowa or Idaho to perform for 10 or 200 people who may or may not be listening just to get that experience. It's about flying myself out to London and begging to be put on bar shows while people are like taking a cigarette break because all of that is your training. And so, you know, I had a really wise, hilarious comedian

friend, Will Silvins, tell me, once you get really good in a room, go to a room where you're the worst, you know, and that's how you get better. And so I've always remembered that. I'm like, okay, not that this is too easy. This is nice, but let's go somewhere else and so yeah I don't know what dragon I was chasing I was just like let's go like a lot of people aren't like either getting this opportunity or taking advantage of it and so I always looked at it as like an opportunity to learn something good or bad and get better. You know, I always hear that stand-up is very much a boys' club, which occurred to me that in TV news at the time that you worked in it, it was also this male-dominated space. But what kinds of things would you do when you were out on the road to command respect?

Did you ever have any incidents where someone was trying to cheat you or shaft you? You know, I hear these stories of, like, I got to be paid in cash, that kind of thing. You know, it's not just comedy. I think like any job you go, any workforce, it's a male dominated, even women's fashion. Fashion for women, male dominated. What? So, I mean, whatever you want to do, just understand that, number one. Number two, you know, I'm not good at arguing with people. So that's just not what I do. I'm,

you know, my dad has always said, don't work for a thank you, leave with a you're welcome. Hmm. So anytime there was like a pushback or you got to go first or do less time or I need to do more time or whatever it was, my whole thing is no matter how long I've been doing comedy, I am going to kill it. I'm going to kill, I'm going to murder this set and I'm going to make it hard for you to follow me. Whether I'm opening for you, whether I got the poo-poo spot, whatever it is, I'm going to give it my all

and get everybody riled up, and I'm going to see if you can maintain that energy. And I don't think a lot of comedians think that way. I want them to. Everyone is really concerned with, like like title and what comma they have in their paycheck. And I understand that those things are important too. But the most important is that you just leave it on the stage. Michelle Buteau, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Oh my goodness. Thank you. When do we drink? Michelle Buteau stars in the new film Babes and the Netflix comedy series Survival of the Thickest.

Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley. This message comes from Grammarly. Back and forth communication at work is costly. That's why over 70,000 teams and 30 million people use Grammarly's AI to make their points clear the first time.

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