Fresh Air - Best Of: Comic Nikki Glaser / 'Hacks' Co-Creator Paul W. Downs

Episode Date: August 3, 2024

Comic Nikki Glaser talks with Terry Gross about finding the line between offensive and funny, hurt feelings, and why she started making jokes about sex. Her new Emmy-nominated stand-up special on HBO is Someday You'll Die.Ken Tucker reflects on the New York Dolls' album Too Much Too Soon for its 50th anniversary. Paul W. Downs co-created the acclaimed HBO Max show Hacks with his wife, Lucia Aniello and their friend and collaborator, Jen Statsky. Downs talks with Ann Marie Baldonado about how they came up with the idea for Hacks, and how his wife continued directing the show while she was in labor. Hacks is nominated for 16 Emmy Awards this year.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, comic Nikki Glaser talks about why she keeps returning to the subject of sex in her stand-up. Sex was always the scariest thing to me. It was always the most interesting thing. I, you know, I didn't have sex until I was 21. I didn't kiss a boy until I was 18, I think. We'll also talk about writing hilarious insults for celebrity roasts. I really do have to do kind of a cleanse

after I write for a roast because my mind is in just such a bad place where I'm just constantly thinking the worst thing about someone. Later, we hear from one of the co-creators and co-stars of the series Hacks, Paul W. Downs. He's nominated for two Emmys.

And Ken Tucker continues his series of albums turning 50 this year, with one by the New York Dolls. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend spend or receive money internationally and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees download the wise app today or visit wise.com t's and c's apply this is fresh air weekend i'm terry gross my guest is comic nikki glazer and i've been trying to figure out how I'm going to talk with her because so much of her comedy is about sex in pretty explicit language, and that is language we can't use on a broadcast, maybe particularly on public radio. One of her comedy specials is

called Good Clean Filth. She says that she talks about her privates so much she thinks of them as her publics. Her comedy is about the pleasures, insecurities, embarrassments, and absurdities involved with sex. Sex isn't her only subject. In her new comedy special, Someday You'll Die, she also talks about why she doesn't want to have children, her thoughts on monogamy, her experiences with depression and suicidal thinking, getting older, she's 40, and how comics are often afraid of getting canceled. I think she's really funny. Watching her work, I'm fascinated by how often she walks the line between incredibly perceptive and potentially tasteless or offensive.

Sometimes I laugh out loud and I start wondering, is it okay to laugh at this? That's especially true when she's featured at a roast, walking the line between hilarious and maybe a little too personal or a little cruel. She made headlines in May at the roast of Tom Brady. Other people she's roasted include Rob Lowe, Alec Baldwin, and Bruce Willis. She's been a contestant on reality shows, including Dancing with the Stars, and hosted reality shows, including FBoy Island and the current sequel, Lovers and Liars. She's had comedy specials on Comedy Central, Netflix, and HBO.

Her latest, Someday You'll Die, is streaming on Max. Note to parents, in case this isn't clear by now, we're going to have an adult conversation. So be advised. Nikki Glaser, welcome to Fresh Air. One of the things I really like about your comedy is it gets me to ask myself, where is the line between hilarious and tasteless or hilarious and maybe a little cruel? Do you wonder where the line is between tasteless and cruel? Do you want me to be thinking about that when I listen to your comedy? You know, no. I think that what I intend is just

to say what's honest and what is funny to me. And it's always interesting to hear how people perceive or take in my comedy because I never intend. Tasteless is totally fine, but it is a word that like no one aspires to be. But I can't refute it because it is. And I don't really know my real only motivation for what I write and what I say on stage is to make people laugh, but also to just be honest and kind of say the thing that I'm frustrated more people aren't saying out loud that I'm observing. I think that's more of where it all comes from. I really think you succeed in that.'m observing. I think that's more of where it all comes from. I really think you succeed in that. Thank you. And I like the fact that it challenges me to think about where is the line. So that's part of what I enjoy about your comedy. Thank you. Yeah, I don't love people getting offended. I think sometimes because of the nature of what I talk about, people think that I enjoy if people leave a show or are scoffing at things or groaning at things. And I think all I want is people to like me, really. And it's a weird approach to achieve that.

But it's worked in many aspects, but it's been a roundabout kind of way of getting there. But it really is the underlining motivation is like, just like me, which I think is most comedians. How did sex and your own body become the focus of so much of your comedy? You know, sex was always the scariest thing to me. It was always the most interesting thing. I, you know, I didn't have sex till I was 21. I didn't kiss a boy till I was 18, I think. I was scared of boys. I was scared of sex. I was, you know, in a constant battle with my that I was just wondering why more people don't talk about, especially when it comes to sex. I just, I think the fear that I had around it, that I was going to be bad at it, that I was going to get made fun

of, that I was going to do it wrong, it was all because I just didn't know what was going on in there, and no one was talking about it. So as soon as I started kind of partaking in it, I kind of wanted to get the word out to girls like me that might be terrified and wondering what is going on in there. Because, you know, the places where we find out it's either, you know, sex ed or porn and there's nothing in between. And neither of those are really realistic representations of sex. And so I just I felt like I was kind of filling this void that I felt growing up of sex. And so I just, I felt like I was kind of filling this void that I felt growing up of information. Did you have friends who had sex before you did who could fill you in? Or were you uncomfortable just talking about it? You know, yeah, I didn't get my period until I was really late in high school. I was the last to do everything of my girlfriends. So I kind of had all the information when I was ready to finally do it. So when it came to sex and everything, yeah, I mean, I would go down to like, okay, so you get alone with a boy. Like, does he touch your leg?

Does he touch your arm? And then how do you kiss? Does he move in for it? I mean, I wanted to know every little moment so that I could avoid being made fun of by boys. And that's, let's get to it, is the other motivation for what I do is like, I just don't want to be made fun of or mocked, especially by boys. I think that's, I'm kind of stuck in that middle school or maybe early high school self where I did get kind of made fun of. Not mercilessly or not, you know, all the time, but enough times that I was like, okay, my goal is to just always control this situation. So they can't make fun of me. So you were afraid you would get made fun of

because you were bad at sex. Did anybody actually make fun of you during or after a sexual encounter? No, I don't think so. Not that I can recall. I'm sure it's happened behind my back. And yeah, I think as an adult, I've heard, I remember things I did. And I can only assume that the male comics I was hooking up with when these things happened, talked about it. Wait a minute, let's stop just right there for a second. There's a lot of male comics who like you talk about sex a lot. That strikes me, if you're self-conscious and worried that people are going to make fun of you, having relationships with comics seems to me like a very hazardous situation. Well, that's why I never got a relationship out of any of it. I was always just like, they were just, that's where alcohol came in. Like, so when I discovered drinking, then all my fears went out the window. And then, you know, which is the worst thing that could happen because when I was drunk, I would do way more embarrassing things and act a fool more so than if I had been sober, but I was just too scared to do anything sober. So, you know, the only way I ever had sex was,

or was intimate with a man was to drink to the point of blackout. And then by the time I was 27, I quit drinking. So I had about six years of fun that I don't really remember. But I just was observant of what men said about women around me. And I think that's where I got the idea that they talk about us. Not so much it happened to me, but I had male friends and I had I wasn't doing comedy before I was sexually active. So I was paying attention to how men talk to other men in a was early 2000s. And I came up in the Kansas City and St. Louis comedy scenes, which I feel are notoriously pretty dirty. Just both the clubs are dirty, but like also the comedy that comes out of it. It was just like, how can you get groans? How can we offend the crowd? That was the goal, was just to say the grossest,

most offensive thing. So that was kind of my training ground. And obviously, yeah, it was just, it was more the way men talked offstage, I would say, than onstage that made me think, I just don't want to be a part of this locker room talk where someone's mocking me. And, you know, you can't really control it, but I've tried as much as I can. How did you want to talk about sex on stage in a way that was different from the male comics that you heard coming up? You know, it wasn't like I was saying, oh, you know, male comics are getting it wrong and I need to take back the story and represent what we're going through. It was really just about how strange it was to me that we are doing this thing. And I thought, I'm finally going to get to say how I felt my whole

life, which is like what I would say to my friends in high school when they started making out with boys and kissing them. I'm like, how is it that I can't sip from your soda because you're a germaphobe, but then you can make out with a guy who probably doesn't brush his teeth and have good oral hygiene. Like, I just don't understand what's going on here. And then how do we all agree to you go on a date with a guy and you're on your best behavior and you're trying to look so prim and proper and make sure you don't have food in your teeth and your hair is perfect and your nose is powdered. And then you within an hour, you're naked and grunting with this person and slobbering all over each other. It just seemed insane to me. And I think doing stand-up was the first opportunity I got to, like, position this question to people and have people go, oh, yeah, that is kind of weird.

Maybe you're not alone in thinking this is bizarre that we are expected to do this when we get older. I really didn't like that I was going to have to grow up and have sex. It terrified me. And then I think when I finally got a mic in front of my face, I just couldn't wait to talk about the things I was observing that seemed just insane to me that we have to do or even want to do. That's one of the things I find very interesting about you is on the one hand, you seem to really enjoy sex and are very sex positive. At the same time, you point out all of the absurdities and the embarrassments, the insecurities, to mention the unmentionable. And as I've dealt with like addictions and just problems with my mental health, it's like that's always the answer to solving it is admitting that there's a problem. So it's like I kind of stumbled into comedy as a way to cope with all these feelings.

My guest is Nikki Glaser. Her latest comedy special, Someday You'll Die, is streaming on Max. We'll hear more of our conversation after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. I want to talk with you about roasts. You are very funny at roasts in a way that makes me laugh, but also makes me uncomfortable because it really cuts. I mean, I would never want to be roasted by you.

No. I bet you wouldn't want to be roasted by you either. Right. No, I get roasted by me. That's the thing. It's like I developed this skill because of what I say to myself a lot of times. I think I just made that connection recently of like, I think on this last roast, I'm thinking, what are they going to say about me?

And I'm like, you've already said it to yourself at some point. Like, they can't come at you for anything new. I mean, they find a way. Sometimes you go, oh, man, I didn't even notice that about myself. But, yeah, it's crazy that I watch clips of myself at roasts and I go, who do you think you are talking to someone like this? I really, it's an out-of-body experience, and I just really have to almost play a character. Well, yeah, first of all, yeah, some of your performances are like auto-roasting. Roasting yourself.

But I don't, I think roasts end up being really funny, and roasts are sometimes a little cruel. But it's such a weird phenomenon that comics get together and choose a willing victim and just insult them with punchlines. It's so strange. It really is when you say it like that. Like, I don't know. I understand why people love it because it's just saying things that you would never be able to say. And the person sitting right there. And so it feels like it's OK because they're laughing along with it. So it makes us all feel better about what we're laughing about.

But it is insane. I don't know why anyone signs up for it. I'm grateful that they do. And that is the only reason I can even do it is because I know they're signing up for it. I mean, I really respect, you know, in terms of Tom Brady, I was like, I can't believe he's going to do this. And because he said yes to it, it's kind of like, unless you tell me things are off limits, I'm going to go there. I have license. I have your consent. And then I go and boy, yeah, I just, I can't believe the places my mind will go to. I really do have to do kind of a cleanse after I write for a roast because my mind is in just such a bad place where I'm just constantly thinking the worst thing about someone, looking at pictures of them, thinking, what is something I can think about them that is going to haunt them the rest of their life because I'm going to reveal it to everyone. I mean, it's a disgusting place to write from, but that's the job.

Oh, OK. So I want to play an example. Oh, God. So this was during the roast of Tom Brady in May that was carried live on Netflix. And, you know, you talk about how he's the greatest quarterback of all time. And, you know, he announces retirement in 2022 and then returned for another season and then retired for real last year. So here's an excerpt of what you said about Tom Brady with, of course, Tom Brady being in the room.

You really are. I mean, you're the best to ever play for too long. I mean, you retired, then you came back and then you retired again. I mean, you retired, then you came back, and then you retired again. I mean, I get it. It's hard to walk away from something that's not your pregnant girlfriend. It's tough.

Hey, to be fair, he didn't know she was pregnant. He just thought she was getting fat. And Tom hates fat. I mean, do you guys know about his diet program? It is so strict.

But if you follow it exactly as he does, you too can lose your family. I mean, do you guys know about his diet program? It is so strict. But if you follow it exactly as he does, you too can lose your family. And seriously. So Nikki Glaser, that is a stinging joke. And you know, one of the things I notice at roast is this kind of these like forced smiles. And like, I'm going to show I can laugh at this. And you can tell a person's just kind of like dying inside. Yeah. So how do you figure out if jokes like the one we just hear you tell about Tom Brady is too personal or too cutting, too cruel, not only to Tom Brady, but to the girlfriend he left years ago?

Yeah. I felt like I was sticking up for her in a way with that joke. And maybe that's me trying to soften it for myself. But I felt like I was more coming at him than her.

And calling, I like the idea of me defending him and saying, you guys, chill out. He just thought she was getting kind of fat, which is also calling him out

for being, you know, just, you know, he broke up. I don't know what happened in the relationship, but it ended and then he ends up dating a model and his girlfriend was pregnant. It seems to me to be that would be the number one thing we can joke about. So for me to get through that whole roast and see that no one else mentioned that incident in his life, I was shocked because it's a guessing game, Terry. Like, it really is like, is this going to fly? Is this going to be okay? I really don't know until I get there. And thank God he is kind of like behind me because I don't want to look at him.

It's so, it's insane. I can't even, like, I did those jokes so much leading up to it, practicing around town. He wasn't there for those. But when you finally get up there, it's really scary to say these to someone's face. And thank God he's barely in my periphery because I don't know that I could do it if I had to look at him during it. But at that point, I was so on autopilot and had the set so locked from practicing that it didn't matter anymore. And I almost didn't have feeling behind the joke. Like, I just didn't even think about how those jokes could affect him

because you have to divorce yourself from that to even get it done. I'll tell you a couple of jokes that I did actually really wince at and kind of found offensive, so tell me what you think. Please. I think it was at the—I forget which roast it was at, but Sybil Shepard and Martha Stewart were there. And you made jokes about their older woman genitals. And I thought, wow, that struck me as like really so insulting to women. Do you know that women have less value when they're older and their genitals

are older? Yes. I don't disagree with you. And I just think that the rules of roast, like no one's exempt from having their genitals talked about because I do it for men too. So I felt like it, it, I will defend it and saying like, I just don't want to pull any punches. Um, but I will say that I did contribute to that kind of toxic belief that women are disposable as soon as they start aging, which is like my biggest concern and fear and resentment of being a woman. And, um, I don't love that I did that. And I think that, you know, it was just, I look back, like I said, like, I don't like watching these roasts. And sometimes I'll come across a clip. And I usually just skip past it because I go, I don't want to

relive that. God only knows what I said. But I watched one recently, in preparation for the Tom Brady one. And I just go, what are you doing, girl? Who do you think you are? Who ever told you this was an okay thing to say to someone's face? And I'm glad you didn't quote the jokes to me because I would probably wince as well and be ashamed of what I said. So I definitely, I would like to do more roasts in the future to right those wrongs and be able to make different jokes, like have parameters for myself and challenge myself to not go to those, quote unquote, easy places. But yeah, I'm embarrassed of things I've said to people on those things. And it's hard to re-listen and relive it. But I'm sure much harder for them. Do you have to do research when you're preparing a roast so that you know enough about the person's life to know their vulnerabilities and their mistakes. Yeah. And, you know, I want to like them. Like I want to come from a place of like love because if it's just all disdain,

it's just going to read that way and it's not going to be as funny. And I'm the brunt of it, too. Like I'm on the receiving end of jokes that really hurt my feelings. So I get what it's like. It's not easy. Would you want to tell a joke that really hurt your feelings? Is that too much to ask of you? No. I mean, there was one about, it was Sybil Shepard at the roast of Bruce Willis. And she said that, I saw Nikki before the show. I walked into the bathroom and I saw her from behind and I go, oh my God, look at this model. And then she turned around and I go, oh, she's a comedian. And that really, that really stung because I have so many insecurities about my face and it's not good enough. And that's why

I'm a comedian is because I wish I could just be pretty. It's like that one hurt. And then the laughter that follows, including yours just now, is the kicker as well, where you just go, oh, no, that might be true. And then there was another one. Pete Davidson had one about me having a flat butt. And I was like, oh, no, I always knew that about myself. Now other people know that I have no butt. And then there was one about me not being funny this time around that kind of stung.

Yeah, and then you just put on a happy face, and then you don't think about it until the car ride home when you're just like despondently looking out the window and everyone around you is like, that was so amazing tonight. And you're like, but like the thing that Tony Hinchcliffe said, do you like think that comes from a real place? And they're like, why are you thinking about that joke that no one's talking about? You had the night of your life. And I mean, I've cried at, I think, two out of the three roast after parties because of my feelings getting hurt. And then I also, after the roast of Bruce Willis, I got a ton of stuff injected in my face and laser stuff done to fix what Sybil saw. Wow, that is a really heavy reaction to it. That was just like a joke.

I just go, okay, I finally have confirmation. I've been saying I'm ugly my whole life. Everyone is like, no, you're beautiful. And then Sybil just said I was ugly. And the whole room laughed, equals it's true. And I'm going to do something about it finally. So I really did. I went and spent that entire paycheck at a med spa and did, you know, I did a laser on my face that they had to strap down my hands because my body would probably try to run to the nearest, like, water source to be, because my body thinks I'm on fire. I had to be, like, held down. And I was like, what am I doing to myself? And I continued to do those treatments here and there, but I really went all in and pretty crazy right after. And yeah, I mean, it just, I've been on the receiving end,

so I know what it's like. And I do feel bad about the things I've said because I've suffered in the wake of it as well. Nikki Glaser, thank you so much. Thank you, Terry. Nikki Glaser's latest comedy special, Someday You'll Die, is streaming on Max. It's nominated for an Emmy in the category Outstanding Variety Special, pre-recorded. As part of his summer series on albums celebrating their 50th anniversary, rock critic Ken Tucker revisited the New York Dolls 1974 collection in Too Much, Too Soon. It was the second album by the band fronted by lead singer David Johansson. The New York Dolls are now considered to be one of the forerunners of punk

rock, but as Ken explains, in 1974, being a Dolls fan was sometimes a lonely proposition. Well, when I woke up this morning, boys, I was gone My girlfriend asked me, where do I come from? Put my face up in the mirror just to clock my way First thing I know, I gotta get out of here. I'm back to Babylon. I gotta get away to Babylon. I can't stay, cause it's Babylon. And it's too much fun, cause it's Babylon.

I gotta run, I can't look back. I've gotta get back, I've gotta get back I've gotta get down to Babylon Of all the albums I've talked about during this 50th anniversary album series thus far, the New York Doll's In Too Much Too Soon is the least known and least appreciated. I know this partly from experience. The vinyl copy of it that I possess was given to me 50 years ago by my friend, the novelist Tom DeHaven. Not as a gift, but as something he wanted out of his house. Take it, he told me, holding it at arm's length. I hate it, he said. At the time, this second album

by the Dolls was receiving rapturous reviews, minimal sales, and audience indifference bordering on hostility. The album thrilled me, and I still grin upon hearing the opening goofiness of the Dolls' version of Archie Bell and the Drells' There's Gonna Be a Showdown. You know you're in my neighborhood. They tell me you're pretty fast on them beats. You best be at the dance down 14th Street. You hear? Yeah, it's gonna be a showdown. Yeah, it's gonna be a showdown. Yeah, gonna be a showdown.

Yeah, yeah, gonna be a showdown. It's not hard to hear why many people did not dig the New York Dolls. To begin with, there's David Johansson's taxi cab honk of a voice, as New York as the band's name. While he later went solo as a witty crooner under the stage name Buster Poindexter, as a doll, Johansson was all about singing to compete with or complement the clattering chaos of Johnny Thunder's garish lead guitar. Better get hip, eyes up in the pit, gunning for a hoop. I thought a shot would get them hoops, just like pussy boots. I hope you don't get shot for trying.

You better shot for trying. In New York City, the Dolls were the bridge between the atonal moodiness of the Velvet Underground that preceded them and the terse noise of the Ramones who would follow them. Arrogant, sloppy, and plagued by substance abuse, the band was a slap in the face, no one's idea of a smash hit at a time when John Denver and the Eagles topped the charts. Paul Nelson, the pioneering rock critic turned A&R man, had to spend months convincing his bosses at Mercury Records to sign the band. Ellen Willis, another inventor of rock criticism, wrote in The New Yorker about being blown away by the band in the lower Manhattan space that became their launch pad, the Mercer Arts Center,

describing Johansson as a, quote, 19-year-old bizarro in his rumpled Prince Valiant hairstyle, lipstick, high-heeled boots, and leather pants, radiating a sulky sexuality. The high point of this album is its final song, Human Being. It's poignant that the dolls would feel they had to tell us that they weren't freaks or superheroes, but plain old humans, wrapping the sentiment in their fiercest rock music. Me, the type who's just a man about every little thing that I see. But I can't color that with history or make it just what I want it to be. While I'm blowing my chains on the fan magazines with all the Hollywood refugees screaming, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And if I'm acting like a king, I said, well, I'm a human being. And if I want to meditate, well, don't you know, well, I'm a human being.

If I've got the drink, baby, baby, baby, I'm a human being. And when it ends up in a thing, I'm a human being The Dolls' first self-titled album had been produced by Todd Rundgren in hopes of giving it some pop music flair. For the second album, the band made a surprising choice. Shadow Morton, best known for his work writing and producing 60s hits like Leader of the Pack for the Shangri-Las. He turned out to be great for the group,

playing up their hard rock swagger while also highlighting the sense of humor that could get lost in the noise, steering them toward material like Sonny Boy Williamson's 1950s blues hit Don't Start Me Talkin'. Less than a year after this album, the Dolls broke up in a combination of commercial failure and personal misbehavior. The best summation may have been offered by the late Paul Nelson when asked why he worked so hard to get the Dolls a record contract. It was a wondrous thing, he said, to see a group play rock and roll with the enthusiasm of five people who felt and acted as if they had just invented it. Rock critic Ken Tucker revisited the New York Dolls album In Too Much Too Soon, which was released 50 years ago. Coming up,

we hear from Paul W. Downs, one of the co-creators and co-stars of the series Hacks. This is Fresh Air Weekend. Our next guest, Paul W. Downs, just received two Emmy nominations for his work acting in and writing for the Max TV series Hacks. He spoke with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Boldenaro. You may know Paul W. Downs from his role as the talent manager Jimmy in the Emmy and Peabody Award-winning TV series Hacks. The show follows Debra Vance, a veteran stand-up comic and Vegas headliner. When we meet Debra, her career is waning, and she's in danger of losing part of her Las Vegas residency. It's her manager, Jimmy, who comes up with the idea of matching Debra with a young Gen Z comic to help her write jokes and be more current.

In this scene from the first episode, Paul W. Downs as Jimmy is fielding a call from his big client, Debra, played by Jean Smart. Debra, perfect timing. How are you, my favorite client? Marty wants to cut my dates. He blindsided me at lunch that snake. Oh, he says he needs to appeal to a younger crowd. You've got to do something about this, Jimmy. Okay, I will call Morty. Marty! Marty, yes, but I have a pitch. What if you hire a writer? I actually represent a very in-demand young woman. She wrote for a hit show, nominated for an Emmy.

Almost everybody is talking about her. I write my own material. I do not need a writer. I need a manager. Your father would have handled this. He promised me you'd take care of me. Don't make your dead father a liar, Jimmy. Paul W. Downs actually won an Emmy for writing that episode from 2021. He co-created Hacks with his comedy partners, his wife Lucia

Agnello and their friend and collaborator Jen Statsky. Downs and Agnello also direct many of the episodes. Before creating Hacks, the trio worked on the Comedy Central show Broad City, which Downs also co-starred in. His other work includes the film Rough Night and the miniseries Time Traveling Bong. Paul W. Downs, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks for having me. Hi. Hi. I want to go back to the origins of the show, Hacks. Where did the idea for Hacks come from? And I think some of the origin story involves a car trip way back in 2016. Yeah, actually 2015. Oh, 2015.

If you can believe it. Yeah. So we were, Jen Statsky, Lucia and Yellow and myself, we're driving from Boston to Portland, Maine. They were with me, helping me and writing jokes for the special. And as we drove up, we were talking about our favorite comedians, most of whom are women, and how so many of those women just never had the same opportunities and just didn't get the same respect that a lot of their male counterparts did. And so we were just talking about that phenomenon. And, you know, the three of us also started comedy at the UCB Theater in New York, which is, you know, sort of an alt comedy scene. And we were also talking about this phenomenon of cool comedy versus, you know, what

young, cool comedians might consider hacky comedy. And so we just started talking about this phenomenon and thought, well, you know what would be a cool show is a show about sort of an icon of comedy who is misunderstood by someone of a younger generation. And so we just, yeah, emailed each other the idea for the show and kept talking about it for four or five years before we pitched it. Your character, Jimmy, is a manager. And from what I've read, you didn't grow up around the entertainment industry in the same way. Did you draw on anything in particular for this perspective of this guy who's trying to make it as a manager, kind of in the shadow of his father who passed

away and who was this high powered entertainment guy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Jimmy is very much, I guess, a nepo baby. We used to joke, or at least we joked when we were pitching the show that he would get a call and he'd say, Jimmy Lussac. Oh, no, no, you're thinking of my dad. Yeah, he was a great man. Yeah. Yeah. Prostate cancer. Anyway, I have a web series I'd love you to check out, you know, so he kind of is in the shadow of sort of this Hollywood legend. But also it was a means for us to kind of justify why someone his age would be representing someone like Debra Vance. When his father passed away, he sort of inherited Debra

as a client. So someone like Ava is much more in his wheelhouse. You know, he's sort of representing emerging comedy writers and sort of younger alt comedy crowd. But Debra is one of these legends that he also kind of manages just because she decided to stay with him. So for us, it was total fantasy because like you said, I did not grow up anywhere in your show business. I grew up in a really rural part of New Jersey. So rural that there was a livestock auction every week in my town when I was little. So it was very much a fantasy and a creation. Now, I want to play another scene from the first episode of Hacks. Like I said, you won an Emmy for writing this episode. It's called There Is No Line. In this scene, Ava, the younger comic, has flown out to Las Vegas to meet the older iconic comedian, Debra. And it turns out that Debra didn't really know that Jimmy, your character, who manages both of them, arranged this meeting. Deborah, of course, is played by Jean Smart and Ava is played by Hannah Einbinder. And, you know, the meeting does not go well. You know, they did not get along. So Ava storms out and she's muttering under her breath. Excuse me. Did you have something else to say? Yeah. You've just been pretty rude and I dropped everything to come here. Oh, Christ. Oh, you wanted a gold star just for showing up? Kinda. Yeah. Because you're right. I'm not a fan of yours.

I mean, the last thing on Earth I want to do is move to the desert to write some lame jokes for an old hack. I think you better leave. Yeah. Can I show you to the door? Would you like to go back up the chimney? Oh, no, I know my way out. By the way, so cool they let you move into a cheesecake factory. Oh, is that where you wait tables? That seems like a better fit. Oh, yeah, I agree, you classist monster. I'd rather sling bang bang chicken and shrimp all day than work here. I mean, what is this, 50 tassels on one couch? Even Liberace would think it's a bit much.

Oh, no, you're incorrect. He actually loved it. He did poppers on that couch in 85. That's a scene from the pilot of the show Hacks. That episode was written by my guest, Paul W. Downs. And, you know, as that scene goes on, Deborah and Ava really kind of get into it. And they have like disdain for each other. And, you know, going into this, Deborah has so much disdain for Ava in particular, and at first doesn't want to hire her or anyone. And it's not until the younger comic Ava is honest with her, and I should say rude to her. It's only then that Deborah sort of is intrigued and invigorated and wants to work with her. Can you talk about that idea that she's intrigued by someone who's finally honest with

her? Yeah, I think Deborah is somebody who may have been called a hack a million times, but nobody was brave enough to say it to her face. So I think she decides, A, this girl's pretty funny, and B, she's not afraid of me. And it really turns Debra on because the fact that they can actual opponent who might be worthy of her own wit. So I think she's really excited by the prospect of having somebody that can challenge her. Like I said, she's just creatively turned on by it. But also, Ava calls her a hack. And I think there's a degree to which Debra wants to prove this girl wrong. And she says, you know what? I'm going to hire this girl. And I'm going's a degree to which Deborah wants to prove this girl wrong. And she says, you know what? I'm going to hire this girl.

And I'm going to haze her. And I'm going to show her what it really takes to make it in this business. And I'm going to prove to her that I'm not a hack. So I think there's a lot going on for Deborah in this moment that makes her say, I'll give this kid a chance. Yeah. And it's like proving this kid wrong is like proving a whole generation of younger comics wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like proving this kid wrong is like proving a whole generation of younger comics wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she does represent, again, like cool comedy, right? Like the cool kid alt comedy, which Debra was a part of. And most comedians start out doing things that might be edgier, might be a little more original. And, you know, some of them calcify. And that is the definition of a hack. If you're somebody who does the same thing over and over, that's hacky. But there are

some comedians who continue to evolve and, you know, stay plugged in and in touch with culture and their material changes. And so I think Debra does have a longing for that and being sort of sequestered to Vegas and in her ivory tower of her big mansion there. You know, I think she she knows she runs the risk of that. But she is, like Ava, a true comedian who cares so much about that is addicted to the craft that I think the idea that this girl might be good for her work, I think is very exciting. You know, another theme of the show is, you know, do comics have to be hurt or be cruel in order to be good? Like, you know, like you're just saying that there's this love language of being like smart and cruel to each other. But I think there is that part of that because like both of these characters are so hurt. You find out even the levels of it as the show goes on. either painful and they needed to laugh through it or, you know, for some people they feel isolated

or different or othered and it's a means of connecting with people or it's a means of sometimes self-protection, you know, to make other people laugh. So I think there's a lot of reasons people come to comedy, but certainly for both of them, they have a similar use of comedy, which is, it's a defense for them. It's armor for them. But again, for someone like Ava, who kind of grew up lonely, you learn, it was a means of feeling connected to other people and making sense of the world and the things that she was observing. So it is certainly the tie that binds. It's the thing that makes them very much kindred spirits. Do you think people have to be hurt to be interested in comedy?

No. I think there are some people who are just giddy and funny. And some people are just naturally liquid funny. But I do think that there is certainly truth to the richness of material that comes from a place of pain and hardship. But I don't think you need to be someone who's experienced trauma to do it. I think it's great when people who have can turn that into good work. But, you know, I think it's, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. You and your comedy partners, your wife, Lucia Agnello, and your friend and collaborator, Jen Statsky, you all met in the world of UCB, Upright Citizens Brigade. How did you know that you would be good collaborators, that you'd work well together? I mean, there's two things.

One, I found both Jen and Lucia so funny. And two, I found myself being funnier because I wanted to make them laugh. You know, I think when you respect someone's brain and their sense of humor, getting a laugh out of them is sort of like the ultimate, you know, it feels so good. So, and there are some people that, you know, you just have, you just click with, that you just have chemistry with. And it's true of non-comedians too. You know, you have friends that you love laughing with and you have other friends who are a little bit more serious or you're like, well, that was fun. But after you leave dinner, you're like, it wasn't as fun as when I go out with XYZ because we make each other laugh. You know, I think that's true of anybody. So yeah, I think we just gravitated toward each other because we shared a sense of humor, which often I think is related to a sense of how you see the world and a sense of values too. Can you describe how you all write, like working on hacks? Do you take

different parts of the story or do you write the same parts and compare notes? No, I can't tell you. I can. I can reveal it. So we basically kind of share the responsibility of everything. We really, as I mentioned, when we pitched the show, we pitched the very last episode. So we sort of had at least a framework for where we wanted to go. And then, you know, with our writer's room, we break story and we figure out the ins and outs and the scenes of every episode. And, you know, we all write set-up

punchline jokes. We all write character dialogue jokes. We all write visual things. I think certainly we gravitate toward one or the other, but you kind of have to wear a lot of hats. You've talked about how when you came up with the idea of Hacks, you had this idea, and then you wrote an email to all three of you describing the show idea so you wouldn't forget. And I heard you say that you all still write each other's emails with ideas and jokes. And like that's your one of your like filing systems, I guess. Well, nowadays, it's like we don't carry a little notepad around. But yeah, it's so easy to have subject jokes dash hacks, because we have certain jokes or other things, too. But and then we, you know, we'll email it to the three of us, then it's so easily searchable,

which means that when we're working, obviously, we don't have to do that. But it's usually in the moments we're not working, that the muse strikes, we have an idea, something comes to us, and we write it down. So like, you're on vacation, and you're like, we have an idea, something comes to us and we write it down. So like you're on vacation and you're like, oh, this would be something funny for Debra to do. Exactly. We're on vacation, we're out to dinner, we're, you know, in more of a mode of play, you know, that something then comes to you. And so it's sort of a way to get it filed and then get back to the fun, you know, so you can revisit it when you're in the writer's room. But yeah, we've done that for a very long time. We still do it.

Do you have a recent example of an email or something that sort of went around like that? I mean, I can, I can pull one up if you want. Yeah. Oof, I can't read you that one. Cause that one is about the series finale. So I can't read that one. This is hard. Hold on, let me see. Is there an old one? Okay, here's a specific one. Here's a specific that isn't a joke, but here's a specific. Lucia emailed, a character in the show has a wet T-shirt from having wet hair because she always shows up late. And Debra finds that quite disgusting.

So that's an example of a character specific. Somebody who's showered 10 minutes before they arrive to work. And it really bugs Debra finds that quite disgusting. So that's an example of a character specific. Somebody who's showered 10 minutes before they arrive to work. And it really bugs Debra. So that's something that's not like an actual line of dialogue. But sometimes it's lines of dialogue. Let me see if this one's a line of dialogue. Okay. So exciting.

Okay. Because this one is really funny. Ava is sort of in like mesh shorts and a big t-shirt. And Debra says, you're not funny enough to dress like Adam Sandler. And then Ava says, well, he's too rich to dress like me. And then Deborah says, he's rich enough not to have shame. You, on the other hand, should have a lot. So anyway, that was a literal three-line scene that was emailed. So yeah, sometimes it's a, it's nearly a scene, you know, it's an exchange. It depends, you know, you never know. You never know. That's so funny.

By the way, I love that Max, the people who produced, who were producing Hacks, who greenlit it, didn't want to know how it ended. They wanted to, like, hold on to the, you know, to not get the spoiler of it. I loved that when I read it. What initially happened was, in the pitch, Susana Makos said, you guys can keep going, but I understand the show. I get it. And I would like to buy it. So it was very exhilarating to be in the room and hear that. And then we did say at a certain point during the development of season one, we said, well, do you want to hear the ending? Because we never got to it. And she said, no. So yeah, that was interesting that she and sort of everybody else on the creative team at HBO Max were like, that's okay. We'll get there when we get there. And it's been fun to know it and have, you know, other people still wait. And your main actors don't know, right? is going to happen in the season. Both Jean and Hannah read scripts as they come out. So they're very unspoiled in terms of what's going to happen.

I mean, some shows, I think people sit down with the actors and say, here's the basic trajectory of the season. Here's what's going to happen. But it's interesting. They almost receive the scripts as if they're an audience member. You know, they kind of read them in order before the table reads happen, which is kind of fun because then we get texts from Jean or Hannah being like, oh, no, oh, my God. You know, and they get to react in real time to things that are happening without having,

you know, sort of like a pitch preview of what that is, which is cool. I think that's cool. And I think a lot of other actors on the show have decided to do the same thing. They're just like, yeah, I'll just I'll read right before the table read and I'll I'll be shocked. Well, Paul W. Downs, congratulations on the success of Hacks. And thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Paul W. Downs spoke with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Boldenado. He co-created the series Hacks.

He's nominated for two Emmys, Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series, and Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series. Hacks has been renewed for a fourth season. The first three seasons are streaming on Max. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock,

Anne-Marie Boldenato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Joel Wolfram, and Monique Nazareth. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. Who's claiming power this election? What's happening in battleground states? And why do we still have the Electoral College? All this month, the ThruLine podcast is asking

big questions about our democracy and going back in time to answer them. Listen now to the ThruLine podcast from NPR.