Fresh Air - Best Of: Jason Isbell / David Tennant

Episode Date: April 12, 2025

Grammy-winning singer-songwriter Jason Isbell sings about his split from musician Amanda Shires on his latest album, Foxes in the Snow. "What I was attempting to do is document a very specific time where I was going through a lot of changes," he tells Terry Gross. David Bianculli reviews the FX/Hulu series Dying for Sex. When Scottish actor David Tennant was three, he told his parents he wanted to grow up to play Doctor Who on TV. His dream became a reality — he was Doctor Who for five years and, it turns out, he was suited for lots of other characters, including villains and detectives, and the lead in many Shakespeare plays.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

The First Amendment is a cornerstone of American democracy. On the Sunday story, how people are feeling about their right to free speech under the Trump administration. Conservatives are just much more willing to speak their mind. They just shut down the conversation by saying, I'm putting you on a list. Voices of the emboldened and the silenced. This is now to the Sunday story on the Up First podcast from NPR. Sunday story on the Up First podcast from NPR. From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Sam Brigger with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, musician Jason Isbell. The songs on his new album are about... Old relationships, new relationships, gratitude, fear, loss, grief, joy.

Several songs allude to the fracturing of his marriage to musician Amanda Shires. Terry asked if they could find a way to talk about these songs without being invasive. We need an audio intimacy coordinator. Yeah. I love that idea. Also, we hear from Scottish actor David Tennant. When he was three, he told his parents he wanted to grow up to play Dr. Who on TV. As a teen, he held onto that dream. You know, I was sort of quite weedy and I wore glasses and I had a terrible haircut. So all those

things still felt possible in the world of The Doctor. There was something about that character that I could be. Tenet was Doctor Who for five years. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things and other currencies. With WISE, you can send, spend, or receive money across borders, all at a fair exchange rate. No markups or hidden fees. Join millions of customers and visit wis.com.

T's and C's apply. You want to follow what's happening in Washington, D.C., but you don't want to be scrolling your phone all day. I'm Scott Detro, and NPR has a podcast that can help. It's called Trump's Terms, stories about big changes the 47th president is pursuing on his own terms. They're short, they're focused episodes that tell you calmly, factually, what is happening and what isn't.

Listen to Trump's Terms from NPR. You have your job, but you also have a life. And you're not just one thing. isn't. Listen to Trump's terms from NPR. You have your job, but you also have a life. And you're not just one thing. Neither is the Here and Now Anytime podcast. Every weekday we break down the biggest story of the day and something else like a new trend everyone's talking about. It's Here and Now Anytime, a daily podcast from NPR and WBUR. anytime a daily podcast from NPR and WBUR. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Sam Brigger.

Terry has our first interview. I'll let her introduce it. My guest Jason Isbell was described in Variety as the poet laureate of American rock. The quibble I have with that is that I'm not exactly sure I'd call it rock because there's country and folk music blending into many of his songs. Maybe the word Americana more suits him. He's won nine Americana music awards and six Grammys. His lyrics are as well written as a good poem or short story. They're often very personal and that was especially true of his album Southeastern

which was released in 2013 and was his first album since Getting Sober. It's also true of his new album Foxes in the Snow, on which he sounds especially naked because it's solo. His band, the 400 unit, sits this one out. It's just Isbell and his guitar. Some of the songs are about the blame, anger, and guilt when a relationship ends and about the exhilaration of falling in love again. His ex-wife Amanda Shires is also a songwriter and singer and violinist who performed with Isbell. She's written her own songs about the cracks in their relationship.

They were in a 2023 documentary together called Running With Our Eyes Closed, which is about the making of Isbell's 2020 album, Reunions, on which she played fiddle. The film also ended up being about the making of Isbell's 2020 album, Reunions, on which he played fiddle. The film also ended up being about the tension in the marriage, which was exacerbated during the COVID lockdown when they spent more time together than they ever had.

Jason Isbell got his professional start with the band The Drive-By Truckers. Before we hear some of the relationship songs, let's start with a song that opens the album. I love this one. It's called, Bury Me. Before we hear some of the relationship songs, let's start with a song that opens the album. I love this one. It's called, Bury Me. Bury me where the wind don't blow, where the dust won't cover me, where the tall grass

grows. Or bury me right where I fall, Tokyo to to Tennessee I love them all See the windmills turn up fifty five Still got so much to learn, still feel alive And one lonely girl is all I need To tie me to this world and make me believe Well, I ain't no cowboy, but I can ride And I ain't no outlaw, but I've been inside And there were bars that steal boys And there were bars to sing And there were bars of steel boys and there were bars to sing And there were bars with swinging doors for all the time between

That was bury me from Jason Isbell's new album, Foxes in the Snow. Jason Isbell, welcome back to Fresh Air. I love this album. Congratulations on it. And I love this song. And I hope I don't mangle this, but I want to quote some of the lyric. This is the chorus. I ain't no cowboy, but I can ride.

I ain't no outlaw, but I've been inside. And there were bars of steel, boys, and there were bars to sing. And there were bars with swinging doors for all the time between. That's so great because you're talking about a jail with bars of steel, music, which has bars delineating each segment, each like four notes or whatever.

And bars with swinging doors, each segment, you know, each like four notes or whatever. And bars with swinging doors, those are like old Western saloons that had those swinging doors. And you were a drinker for years. So that's just, it's like, were you in jail too? I have been to jail, yeah. Never for longer than a day, and never for anything violent.

But yeah, I have been. For drinking too much? Yeah, just for longer than a day and never for anything violent But yeah have been For drinking too much. Yeah, just from drinking drinking and yelling hollering at people And we're also drinking So you imagine you manage to incorporate some of your own story into this kind of cowboy song? Yes, but it's also there are this kind of cowboy song. Yes, but it's also there are, you know, I'm attempting to work on different levels. It's not necessarily an allegorical song, but there are pieces of this song that are directly about me, you know, and there are details that I pull from my own life.

You know, the swinging doors line, I mean, that could be, you know, I'm sitting here looking at a gate out the window right now, and that could also be gates, and there is at least one very, very famous set of gates when it comes to right and fault music. You mean by the gates of heaven? I am, indeed, yeah, and a death song. You know, so it's the kind of thing where, you know, sort of let my unconscious mind build these lyrical phrases and then I go back and shape them into something that not only sings and scans accurately, which is this is a huge part of the process for me that I think sometimes

people don't realize how much energy you spend just trying to get something to sing naturally. Was death on your mind when you wrote this? I don't know that death was on my mind anymore than, you know, life was on my mind. I mean, anytime I think about being grateful, you know, I think, I call it my hillbilly brain, but it goes to the worst possible scenario in a lot of situations. So, you know, I spend a lot of time thinking about death not in a sad or fearful way, but in a way that, you know, I think, well, I've already done so many things and got to see so many things and that might not have necessarily been in the plans for me at the beginning.

But so I'm very, very grateful for the time that I have had and I think the song deals with that, among other things. There was a time though, there was definitely a time early on after Amanda and I had split up, you know, when I was just, I was driving in the car and the radio wasn't on and I was alone and I just heard myself say out loud without realizing that I was saying and I heard myself say, is this going to kill me? And I didn't even know that I was, you know, didn't know that I was thinking that question, but I heard it bounce off the the windshield. So yeah, I mean it's a combination of both of those things. Everything is brief, it's so, so brief, but it's so beautiful. I'm gonna tell you my dilemma as a listener. And I'll preface this by saying,

I really love this album. So I first interviewed you in 2013 after Southeastern, your first album since Getting Sober. And at that time you seemed so much in love with your wife, who I think you were already married, Amanda, who's also a songwriter and singer and violinist. And then I interviewed her in 2022 when she had an album out that included a couple of songs

about fractures in the relationship. And your new album includes songs about, you know, fractures in your relationship and ending a relationship, the pain of separating, the guilt of all of it, falling in love with someone new after. And listening, I sometimes think like, am I supposed to be taking sides here because I like her songs, I like your songs, I can see both sides, you know?

It's kind of like friends of yours are breaking up and you're supposed to choose to like who stays your friend afterwards, you know? And then I thought like, no, that's not what I, what I want to do. What I want to do is really enjoy both of your songs and appreciate each point of view and know that there's things in each of those points of view that I identify with. So I want to talk with you about writing these songs, but I also don't want to trespass on your privacy. So let's find a way to talk about it without

getting too personal and making anyone uncomfortable. We need an audio intimacy coordinator. I love that idea. So something new. So I guess the first thing I'm wondering is, if you write a song that is critical of the person who had been married to and who's the mother of your daughter, do you feel guilty about it? Like, do you fear? Is there a form of self-censorship that comes in because you don't want to hurt the other person?

Or do you just write what you want to write? And I think this is something that particularly memoirists run into all the time. Well, where am I being critical? The song I'm about to play, for example, which is Gravel Weed. I was a gravel weed and I needed you to raise me. I'm sorry the day came when I felt I was raised. So it's kind of like you needed her to help you get through a period and now you don't need her anymore because you got through it.

Well, now, I didn't say that I'm sorry the day came when I was raised. I said I'm sorry the day came when I felt like I was raised. That's true. You say when came when I was raised. I said I'm sorry the day came when I felt like I was raised. That's true. You say when I felt I was raised. Yes. Yeah. And then the next chorus I say, and you couldn't reach me when I felt like I was raised. Right. Okay. So I'm still looking for the critical part.

So you think you're being self-critical? This is not my job, you see. My job is to write the songs, but it's in there. If you look close enough, your answers are all in there. I think that I'm always being self-critical. I think I'm being as honest as I can be, and I think I am forcing myself to work at a higher level in some ways than I have worked before. Not necessarily in the part where it's, you know, it's glitter and

dust and look what I can do, look at the phrases I can turn, but in a way, let's see how much I can show people and still be neutral and still be an observer in my own life. And it's there. If I've slipped, let me know, because I think it's there. So let's play the song. And I'll say, I'm from Brooklyn, and I had to look up what a gravel weed was. It's like the tree, the crack in the sidewalk, you know. Well, I looked it up, and it looks like it grows really tall with flowers. It does, yeah.

In the part of the country where you're from, which is Alabama. But it is, it's as Amanda and her dad would say, it's a trash plant. Right. All right. Not me, that's not a metaphor. Yeah, we're not doing the job right now, we're just talking right now. The gravel weed itself would be the kind of plant that you would pull. All right, let's hear the actual song written and performed by my guest Jason Isbell. I wish that I could be angry. I wish I didn't understand I said your skin was like water I bet you'd flow right through my hands Is there a love that's not crazy?

Is there a life that's not alive? All I know is I had to go And you know why, why, why I was a grab a weed and I needed you to raise me You couldn't reach me once I felt like I was raped Now that I live to see my melodies betray me. I'm sorry the love songs all mean different things today. So that's Jason Isbell, Gravel Weed, from his new album, which is called Foxes in the Snow.

I want to quote another line from there which is, but now I've lived to see my melodies betray me. I'm sorry the love songs all mean different things today. Can you talk about that a little bit having written love songs about one person and then written inspired I think by the same relationship songs about the relationship ending. How do those old love songs sound to you now, and do you still play them?

Can you still play Cover Me Up, for instance? I can, yeah, yeah. The old songs, they mean different things to me now, because I have hindsight, you know, and the emotions that I'm feeling now when I'm playing those songs, they're not the same as they were when I wrote them. They're certainly not that sort of obsession.

There's more nostalgia for the person that I was when I felt that way. And there's also a document of love that I had for someone, and I feel like that was reciprocated at the time. And, you know, I mean, that's just art, you know. Our lives change. And the hard part for me is not writing about it. The hard part is making the decisions that lead me to peace. That's very, very difficult.

But I'm not just going to whine for the rest of my life. I have been given too much already for that. So many love songs and breakup songs have been written in every genre for centuries. How do you find new things to say, new words to use in a love song? I mean, Ira Gershwin even wrote a lyric, What Can You Say in a Love Song That's Never Been Said Before? Which is a love song. I mean Ira Gershwin even wrote a lyric, what can you say in a love song that's never been said before? Which is a beautiful lyric. That's one way to do it, you know. What I try to do is closely document my own experience. Even though I think my audience might not recognize themselves

in this story, usually what winds up happening is I come up with something that I might not be saying a new thing. I might not, you know, everybody's looking at the moon, but we're all looking at it from a different spot. And so I'm trying to say instead of this is what the moon looks like, I'm trying to say this is what the moon looks like from right here. And you know, also you don't have to say anything new, to tell you the truth. You don't.

You can combine words and melodies in a way that sounds familiar. My rule is as long as you don't know who you're ripping off before the song comes out, then you're okay. We're listening to Terry Gross's interview with Jason Isbell. His new album is called Foxes in the Snow. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Sam Brigger and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Traveling is fun, inspiring, and in many cases, life-changing.

But for the people who live in these destinations, it's not always for the better. This is Peak Travel, a podcast from WHYY, and we're back with our second season. I'm your host, Tari Ramzazoa. We're traveling the world, tailgating the Super Bowl in New Orleans, touring ancient caves in Petra, and summiting Himalayan peaks in Bhutan, all to figure out how travel shapes communities and hotspots around the world, and how we can do it better. Find us wherever you get your podcasts. I want to play another track from your new album and this is called True Believer. Do you want to say anything about writing this song before we hear it? This is another relationship

song, another breaking up or broken up kind of song. No, I like the melody and the chorus on this one. This is one where my daughter, Mercy, she's nine, she likes to listen to the pop hits of the day on her way to school and back home. And so I've been listening to a lot of the current pop hits and thought, man, I need to write this big, huge melody to go with this really sad song. So I like that melody a lot. Yeah, well, I did too. Thank you.

So this is True Believer. Take your hand off my knee, take your foot off my neck Why y'all examining me like I'm a murder suspect? If I got a little loose, I just forgot to be afraid But I started out a true believer babe A lot of dangerous memories, a lot of bars in this town But oh, to have loved and lost and then still stuck around I heard God in the rhyme and I crawled out of the grave And I guess I'm still a true believer, babe And all your girlfriends say I broke your f***ing heart and I don't like it

There's a letter on the nightstand. I don't think I'll ever read. Well, I finally found a match and you kept daring me to strike it. Now I have to let it burn to let it be. So, that's Jason Isbell from his new album Foxes in the Snow. The song is called True Believer. You had asked me earlier, like give me an example of a line where I sound critical of my ex or of an ex. So, from the song we just heard, two separate lines, take your hand off my knee, take your foot off my neck. And then all your girlfriends say, I broke your bleepin' heart and I don't like it. There's a letter on the nightstand, I don't think I'll ever read it. So, that sounds, it sounds angry and you sing it angry.

Okay, but those first two lines keep going. When you said, take your hand off my knee, take your foot off my neck. What's the next? When you get to, I finally found a match in that. No, what's the next line? I'm trying to remember what the next line is. Why are y'all examining me like I'm a murder suspect? Oh, yes, right. Y'all would be the plural. So the person who's being addressed is not a single person. So there's no criticism of a single person in that line. The second one...

Take your hand off my knee and your foot off my neck. I love these songs, so I'm not criticizing you or the song, I'm just wondering what it's like to write songs that are critical of somebody you've been so close to, or at least seem to be about that. Well, I appreciate it. I very much appreciate it. that are critical of somebody you've been so close to, or at least seem to be about that. I very much appreciate it. And I know that you're not, and I don't mean to be sounding argumentative.

I'm trying to show the trick a little bit. I think the closer you pay attention to this record, the more gracious the lyric becomes. I think time has a way of making us feel that way about each other after something like a breakup. I think perspective, empathy for the other person starts to sink in as time passes. I was hoping that that's how it would work with the lyrics on this record because it sounds accusatory.

It sounds angry. And then you go back and think, well, who's he accusing and who's he angry at? And I think unless I'm wrong, I think in every situation, the closer you look, the more it becomes obvious that the record's about growing and changing as me, myself, and not about accusing Amanda or any other individual person. I'm trying to push myself, and I'm trying to work in a different way than how I've worked in the past. So we're unfortunately out of time.

I want to end with some music. I've picked all the music for this interview. So it's your turn. I want you to pick something to end with. Let's see. Let's play Eileen. Have we played Eileen? No, we haven't.

I was thinking of that too. I really love that one. Let's play Eileen. I think there's some really good turns of phrase in that song. And it's lower in my vocal register than anything I've ever sang before. A little over a year ago, I lost my voice. And I think part of this is probably psychosomatic. But also, I had just been yelling for 30 years and never really learned how

to sing and when my voice went out, I had this really traumatic experience where I was singing a Bon Jovi song at the Music Cares Tribute to John Bon Jovi and I don't know if you know this but Bon Jovi songs are not easy to sing and I looked down and there sits John with Bruce Springsteen and Paul McCartney and they're all sitting right in front of know this, but Bon Jovi's songs are not easy to sing. And I look down and there sits John with Bruce Springsteen and Paul McCartney and they're all sitting right in front of me. And they start counting off the song and I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am not going to do a good job. And I didn't, you know. And it didn't kill me. And I started taking vocal lessons and got an ENT and learned how to sing

over the course of the next year. And so not only can I sing higher than I used to but I can sing lower too and Eileen is a really low key for me. So we'll end with Eileen but first I want to thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been a pleasure to have you back on the show and thanks for the new album. Terry, thank you. You truly are an American treasure. I'm always a little bit nervous to talk to you because I know how smart you are and how much I enjoy listening to your show and it's an honor for me. That means so much to me. Thank you so much. A diamond earring and a Bowery bed, you kicked your shoes across the floor

Do you regret the things that went unsaid, or have you heard it all before? Eileen, you should have seen this coming sooner Do I mean to be alone for all my days? Jason Isbell's new album is called Foxes in the Snow. He spoke with Terry Gross. The new series Dying for Sex is an FX on Hulu production. It stars Michelle Williams from The Fablemen's and Blue Valentine as a woman whose cancer returns after a period of dormancy, leading her on a quest to explore her sexual drive and passions in a new way. Dying for Sex is based on a real story and inspired by a podcast of the same name. Our TV critic

David Bianculli says the series ends up being much deeper and more emotionally resonant than he expected. Here's his review. Dying for Sex, the new FX on Hulu miniseries now streaming in its entirety, has a basic premise that reminded me a bit of Breaking Bad. The main character gets a diagnosis of terminal cancer and reacts in ways that are both unexpected and uncharacteristic. With Walter White in Breaking Bad, the high school science teacher played by Bryan Cranston, he opts to use his knowledge of chemistry to make and sell crystal meth in order to provide a nest egg for the family he'll soon leave behind. With Molly, the long married woman played

by Michelle Williams in Dying for Sex, she decides to embark on a quest to find a level of sexual satisfaction she's not yet experienced. Walter is breaking bad. Molly, at first glance, is breaking sexy. But though that skeletal outline makes Dying for Sex sound like a titillating black comedy, it's more than that. I can't stress enough how much this new series got to me. Yes, some of the sexual encounters and misadventures are very funny, but the emotions and characters running throughout this series are so real and often so raw that though I laughed a lot at what I was watching,

I also choked up a lot and really became caught up in the emotional lives of the show's characters, all of them. Dying for Sex is inspired by the story of a woman named Molly who originally told her story in a 2020 podcast co-hosted by her best friend Nikki. The relationship between Molly and Nikki is central to the mini-series from the very start. When Nikki sees Molly sitting outside of Bodega looking sad and asks her what's wrong. Molly is played by Michelle Williams,

Nikki is played by Jenny Slate. You know how I had that pain in my hip that wouldn't go away? Uh-huh. It's cancer. It's back. You know how I had that pain in my hip that wouldn't go away? Uh-huh. It's cancer. It's back. But you...

It's been two years. I know. You did everything that the doctor said and you took all the drugs and... It's not fair. I don't want to die just when I'm getting used to my new boobs. You're not gonna die. I am actually. It um, metastasized to my bones. It's insurable. Molly's husband Steve, played by Jay Duplass, has been afraid to be intimate with her since her initial breast cancer diagnosis. Their marriage counseling sessions leave her unsatisfied, but a session with a newly assigned palliative care counselor leaves her encouraged to recognize and explore her deeper sexual

feelings wherever they might lead. After a very long and bad day, she returns to her apartment and sees an unfamiliar neighbor guy. That's the way he's credited, as neighbor guy, doing a sloppy job of putting his garbage down the hallway's garbage chute. She reacts forcefully and we hear her inner thoughts, noting that she likes being dominant. And Neighbor Guy, played by Rob Delaney, seems to like her dominance too. Look!

What, you think you can just make a mess and expect that other people will clean it up? Yeah. Pick it up. Yeah. Pick it up. Oh my God. You're doing what I say.

Now say, I'm disgusting. I'm disgusting. After that scene, you may think you have a good idea of where Dying for Sex is going. I thought I did, but I was really, really wrong. The reason for Molly's formerly closed off attitudes towards sex have to do with a childhood trauma which is revealed slowly and emotionally. And all of the characters surrounding Molly, even if they might appear easy to pigeonhole at first, will surprise you at some point.

That goes for her friends and family, including her long-estranged mother played perfectly by Sissy Spacek. But it also goes for the caregivers, including David Raich as Molly's doctor, Esco Julie as her care counselor, and Paula Pell as an oddly cheerful hospice nurse. Hulu's Dying for Sex is co-created by Kim Rosenstock and Elizabeth Merriweather, both of whom come from the sitcom New Girl. They make this miniseries a TV journey you're not likely to forget, but the actors are most responsible for both the laughs and the tears here.

Jenny Slate as the best friend, Rob Delaney as the neighbor, and Sissy Spacek as the guilt-ridden mom, all of them create fully- planets around Michelle Williams as Molly, whose acting in Dying for Sex is so human and so touching, it's hard to describe. I've been impressed and surprised by the depth of her acting several times before, including when she played Marilyn Monroe in My Week with Marilyn, and the mother in The Fablemansmans and even Gwen Verdon in FX's Fosse-Verdon series. But in Dying for Sex, Michelle Williams floored me. Her portrayal, like the series, is at times broadly and brilliantly comic, but also is so vivid and so involving, it may bring you to tears also.

David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed Dying for Sex. It's streaming on Hulu. Coming up, Scottish actor David Tennant, perhaps best known for playing the Doctor on Doctor Who. I'm Sam Brigger and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Scottish actor David Tennant's list of accomplishments is as long as it has varied. Perhaps best known for playing Doctor Who, he is also considered one of the finest Shakespearean actors of

his generation, as you can see now in the film of his Macbeth, which was staged in 2023, with Tennant playing the lead in Cush Jumbo as Lady Macbeth. It's now streaming on Marquee TV. He has also memorably played Hamlet and Richard II. You probably watched him as the haunted and brooding detective in the British crime drama Broadchurch and maybe even in the American adaptation called Grace Point, where he plays more or less the same role but with an American accent. David Tennant has also been his sheriff's screen villains, including real-life serial killer Dennis Nilsson in the mini-series Des, Kilgrave in the Marvel TV show Jessica Jones, one of the most repugnant characters I have ever seen, as well as the smaller but memorable

lip-licking Bardi Crouch Jr. in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. He also hosted the BAFTA Awards for the past two years, Great Britain's version of the Oscars. This year opening the ceremony, singing the song, 500 miles in a bespoke black jacket and kilt suit. And he was hilarious to watch playing a version of himself in the streaming comedy, Staged with Michael Sheehan, one of the few good things to come out of the COVID pandemic. David Tennant also has a podcast called David Tennant Does a Podcast With, where you fill

in the name of the guest from that episode, often an actor he has worked with. A third season of the podcast released this year, and while we might have said, hey, David Tennant, stay in your lane, there's enough long format interview shows out there, instead we decided that this would be a good opportunity to have him on our long format interview show to ask him about his life and career. So David Tennant, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you very much for having me. You did two seasons of your podcast ending in 2020, but then you came back last month

with the third season. Why did you come back now? There was a certain sense of there were a few people I had either meant to interview or had sort of got to know in the interim. And I thought I would have naturally interviewed them when I'd done this podcast before. So maybe now is an opportunity to kind of scoop them up. It really has always been the case with the podcast. It's something I've done, I don't mean to minimize it, but it's almost been a hobby, like a sideline, like a sort of thing I've done for pleasure when I've had a moment. It's never been my principal job. So it was just a sort of moment

of opportunity. When you go into these interviews, like, do you have a specific agenda? Like are you when you're like, Oh, Olivia Coleman, I've always wanted to know this about her, or do you sometimes think about things in your own career which have puzzled you that gives you an opportunity to ask someone else who does the same work the question? Yeah, there's certainly, there's definitely a bit of that, a bit of, there are some slightly odd things about being in this profession and what it sort of does to your life outside the work that is the sort of bit you don't get trained for at a drama school.

You know, one of the sort of side effects of being successful as an actor, I suppose, is that you lose an element of anonymity. And I found that personally quite challenging when it happened to me. So I'm always quite intrigued to know how others have dealt with that or are dealing with that, or kind of characterise what that does to them and the people around them. But it's a mixture of things. You're also just, again, if it's someone you know, you're often interested in sort of celebrating them and wanting the world to know them and understand what's likeable about them, because there's a sort of delight in celebrating that to the public somehow. So it's always, yes, it's always a mixture of impulses,

I think. Pete Slauson Speaking about coping with being a celebrity, you tell a story that someone asked you for an autograph while you were naked in a shower. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, and moments like that are quite peculiar. Yes, perhaps that's stating the obvious. But just, I'm always quite intrigued to know

if other people have had similar experiences and how they would have had similar experiences and how they or how they would have dealt with experiences like that because I think it's quite it's a bit of a sort of club that you can't really expect any sort of sympathy for because it's a very privileged position to be in but it's you know it's a complicated one it's one I struggle with because you're also very aware if someone wants to have a moment's interaction with you, that they're sort of, that moment for them

is representing all the work you might have done that has meant something to them. So that's a hugely, it's quite a precious moment for someone else, whereas you might be just thinking, I'm gonna be late for this appointment that- Or you're having a bad day or something. Oh, you're might be just thinking, I'm going to be late for a disappointment that you're having a bad day or something. Oh, you're having a bad day. Yeah. And of course, that you're not really going to make the situation better by explaining to someone why this is an inappropriate moment. If they're

not seeing that for themselves, I draw you back to the moment in the shower. That man obviously didn't understand why I was finding this peculiar and odd. So it became simpler to sort of carve a signature into what was the mulch of the piece of paper that he was now holding under a shower. And sort of he said, thank you very much and went on his way. So, David, you grew up outside of Glasgow in Paisley. Your father was a Presbyterian minister. So do you remember your father's sermons? Were they fiery or more contemplative? Oh, he could get quite fiery. Yes, he was quite a performer, my dad.

There was definitely a bit of an old ham about him. And he, yes, I wasn't firing brimstone so much, but although he could get there, he had, you know, he could get a little bit. He would thump the pulpit now and again. But no, he was definitely a performer and he was a very good preacher, actually. People would ask him to come and guest preach in various places. He was, I think he was very well thought of and he was very loved. He was a very, he was a very good minister. His congregation liked him and he was kind and he was patient and all the things that I guess you have to be in that job. But he was, no, he was a good preacher. Yeah.

Well, he must have been because for a year, he served as the moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, which is basically like the highest position in the Church. That's right. The highest position, but on a revolving yearly basis because the Church of Scotland is built on the idea that there should be no hierarchy. So you take a turn and you step back again. He also had a TV show called that's the spirit that he co-hosted. What was that show like? Did you ever go to the set? I did actually, yes, it was on Scottish television, but, uh, yes, he did. On a Sunday afternoon in Scotland, you could see my dad and that's the spirit.

It was a sort of religious magazine program. Um, so he would go and meet a community project. He would do a little bit to camera where he gave a little message for the day. He'd do interviews with people who were doing interesting or important things in the world of divinity or outreach or whatever it was. But yeah, he did that for quite a few years. And I remember sitting off camera and watching it happen a couple of times, yeah. I have a hard time believing the story, but it's been told many times, so. Oh, oh, come on, what's this?

Well, it's, at the age of three, you told your family that you wanted to be an actor because you wanted to play Doctor Who. Which is the bit you find most implausible about that story, because I have thought. Well first of all, just the wish fulfillment that you were able to achieve in your adulthood playing one of the most famous Doctor Who's. But also, did you at the age of three understand that Doctor Who was an actor? Did you want to act as Doctor Who? Did you want to be Dr Who?

This is the bit that now having had my own children, I kind of think, three? Really? Could I have been three? Because it does feel like quite a complicated thought process, doesn't it? But I can date it because I, you know, this was in the times before home video recorders. So I know that I watched John Pertwee turn into Tom Baker on Doctor Who and I can date it and it's 1974 so I was three years old. Maybe they repeated it like a year later because sometimes they did that. So maybe I was four, but I know that it was then and I know that that led to a conversation with my parents. And you're absolutely right that it was a

conversation where I learnt what the difference between a character in a television program and an actor was. But in that moment, I understood what that concept was and decided that's what I wanted to do. So despite how implausible it seems, I know that it's true. Do you remember what was so captivating about the show to you? Jack Something about that show and the combination of elements, certainly that central character always fascinated me. I just thought he was brilliant. I just thought he was cool. He was clever. He wasn't, He sort of... He was dressed in sort of brilliant, cool, mad clothes, but he looked like a normal human. And I think that was quite important to me as a fairly geeky

young child. I didn't imagine I could ever aspire to be Superman or the Incredible Hulk, or you know, I was sort of quite weedy and I wore glasses and I had a terrible haircut. So all those things still felt possible in the world of The Doctor. There was something about that character that I could be. I also loved, it's a brilliant and constructed show in that you don't know where they're gonna land each time. Every time that the TARDIS lands, where is it? What's the mystery? There's a whole new set of characters to get. There's a whole, and the monsters. What's the monster going to be this week? What's going to come around that corner and how scary is it going to be and what a thrill all that was. So it was, I know it was, I was obsessional about it. So where I grew up, you couldn't just get Dr. Who on the 13 channels that we had.

Right. I don't know if televisions were the same in Scotland. Well, you see 13 channels like you were starved. I mean, in Scotland, you had three channels. Right. We had three. But there was this other dial where you could, it was kind of like a radio dial,

where you could dial it was kind of like a radio dial where you could dial in like farther television stations and sometimes I could dial in like the out of state public television show that did have Doctor Who and the things that I remember about it was first that it was really scary, like the monsters were scary and the theme music terrified me. But then the thing that I also noticed was like, sometimes I would notice how cheaply made the show was.

Like, why are all these sci-fi futuristic characters wearing clothes that look like they were borrowed from like Masterpiece Theater? And then in all of these science fiction or futuristic sets, there were always these drapes everywhere like blocking off sections of the stage. I don't know. So those were my early memories of it. MG I listen, all of those memories are very accurate, I think. I don't know if there's

anything wrong with any of those observations you make. And I think I was aware of all that, too, but I still either forgave it or reveled in it, its shortcomings, because actually the writing, they were incredibly well written. And those shortcomings, because actually the writing, they were incredibly well written. And those central performances, I remember Tom Baker, who played the Doctor through most of my early childhood, it was a really magnificent performance. He was a properly charismatic, mercurial, funny, funny, heroic. It was a brilliant performance as a piece of sort of mad acting. It was a wonder to behold. And that just scooped me up. How thrilling that you tuned in. You tuned your TV set to get so slightly illicit channels. It must have felt like you discovered wonderful

secrets. It did feel that way. Yeah. Well, let's hear you from Doctor Who. This is from your first big scene. You've just been regenerated. This would happen. This sort of like the character would be reincarnated, which was a convenient way to have new actors play this role.

And so you're reintroducing yourself to your traveling companion played by Billy Piper and some other characters. And you're also surrounded by some pretty tough looking aliens. Let's hear this. Now, first things first, be honest. How do I look? Um, different. Good different or bad different?

Just different. Am I ginger? No, you just look brown. I wanted to be ginger. I've never been ginger. And you! You're not ginger. You're not ginger.

You're not ginger. You're not ginger. You're not ginger. You're not ginger. You're not ginger. You're not ginger. You're not ginger just sort of brown. I wanted to be ginger, I've never been ginger and you, Rose Tyler, fellow good you were, you gave up on me. Oh, that's rude. That's what man I am now, am I rude? Rude and not ginger. If I might interrupt. Yes, sorry, hello very fellow. Who exactly are you? Well, that's the question. I demand to know who you are!

I don't know! See, that's the thing. I'm a doctor, but beyond that, I just don't know. I literally do not know who I am. It's all untested. Am I funny? Am I sarcastic? Sexy? Wild misery? Life and soul? Right-handed? Left-handed? A gambler? A fighter? A coward? A traitor? A liar? A nervous wreck? I mean? One of the things that I really liked about your portrayal of the Doctor was this, like, unbridled enthusiasm that you brought to the character. But, you know, here you are at this point. You've been classically trained.

You went to the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Dance. And now you're playing this important British pop figure. How did all of the things that you had learned and the ways that you had learned and the ways that you've trained help you sort of embody this role? That's a very good question. I don't know. I mean it's one of those parts that has a lot of cultural baggage about it, but it also, the whole, the idea of regeneration where one actor takes over from the next, you're given a bit of a blank sheet.

The Doctor has certain immovable truths about them, but you're not expected to do what the last one did. You're expected to bring your own version of it. You just have to find yourself in it, I suppose. You just have to kind of chuck yourself at it and see what you get. And of course, it was written by Russell T. Davis, who's one of the great television writers of our time,

and wrote it with sort of a bit like himself. I mean, Russell has a wonderful gift of the gab about him. He can talk and he's funny and he's quick, and he's probably the cleverest person in most rooms. And that's kind of how he writes The Doctor. So if you just kind of look to plug into that energy, filter it through yourself and hope that that produces something that's kind of endearing and not smug and annoying. Probably some people did find it smug and annoying,

but hopefully most people found it charming and funny. I think it's important that the Doctor is funny because he uses wit to undermine some of the worst creatures that the universe can throw at him. That's part of what's glorious about that character is that he can be funny in times of crisis and that's his cool. He's very uncool in many ways, but he's got that swagger, that ability to undermine everything with a gag or with a twinkle. So I didn't ponder all that. It's quite interesting listening back to that through headphones now. It feels quite green and quite squeaky to me. Well, it's pretty remarkable how much the show has given you again.

Like it's sort of this great wish fulfillment. You also met your wife, Georgia, on the show. She actually played your daughter in an episode. Yes, but it's a, listen, time is, time is very relative when you're a Time Lord and, uh, she's, she's a little bit younger than me. She's not that much younger than me. She's an adult character in the show. She's an adult character, yes, exactly.

And George's father, your father-in-law, was a different incarnation of Doctor Who wasn't me. That's right, yeah. He was number five. I mean, I watched him as a kid. He became the Doctor when I was about 11, so he was absolutely someone that I drew pictures of in sketchbooks, yeah. That has just added to how odd the whole thing is that I've ended up being part of the show that I grew up obsessed with. Well, David Tennant, it's been a real pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming on Fresh Air. Thanks for having me. It's been an absolute delight. David Tennant's podcast called David Tennant Does It Podcast With, is now in its third season. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Amri Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challener, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Sevey-Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm Sam Brigger. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things and other currencies. Sandbricker.