Fresh Air - Best Of: Molly Ringwald / Busy Philipps

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

Actress Molly Ringwald came to represent '80s teen angst after starring in Sixteen Candles, The Breakfast Club, and Pretty in Pink. She's now in the new series Feud: Capote vs. The Swans, about the high society women that Truman Capote loved and betrayed.Also, we hear from another actor who got her start as a teen — Busy Philipps. In the '90s, she played tough girl Kim Kelly in Freaks and Geeks. Philipps' latest project is the movie musical Mean Girls where she plays a mom trying to be young and cool.John Powers reviews the new Vim Venders film Perfect Days.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for NPR and the following message come from the Kauffman Foundation, providing access to opportunities that help people achieve financial stability, upward mobility, and economic prosperity, regardless of race, gender, or geography. Kauffman.org From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Tanya Mosley with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, actress Molly Ringwald. She became the representation in the 80s of teen angst for a generation after starring in 16 Candles,

The Breakfast Club, and Pretty in Pink. I don't like to use the word iconic because I feel like it's overused, but they really are. Those films are really iconic. Ringwald is now in the new series, Feud, Capote vs. the Swans, about the high society women that Truman Capote loved and betrayed.

Also, we'll hear from another actor who got her start as a teen, Busy Phillips. In the 90s, she played tough girl Kim Kelly in Freaks and Geeks. Phillips' latest project is the movie musical Mean Girls, where she plays a mom trying to be young and cool. I am cool. And people think I'm cool. By the way, I am famous. But you are just never cool to your kids. Ever. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. My first guest, Molly Ringwald, is having a full circle moment.

When she was three years old, she made her stage debut in Truman Capote's The Grass Harp. Now, decades later, she stars as one of Capote's loyal friends in the new Ryan Murphy series, Feud, Capote versus the Swans. Set in the 1970s, the series is about the late novelist, screenwriter, and actor Truman Capote and his high society friend group known as the Swans, composed of wealthy wives of successful men. The group implodes after Capote turns the women's real lives into a thinly veiled work of fiction. Ringwald plays Joanne Carson, ex-wife of talk show host Johnny Carson, and one of Capote's most loyal friends, with him until the very end of his life. Molly Ringwald grew to fame representing

Gen X angst in 80s films like 16 Candles, The Breakfast Club, and Pretty in Pink. In 2022, Ringwald starred in Ryan Murphy's Monster, the Jeffrey Dahmer story, playing the murderer's stepmother. In addition to acting, Ringwald is in Ryan Murphy's Monster, the Jeffrey Dahmer story, playing the murderer's stepmother. In addition to acting, Ringwald is a jazz musician, author, and translator of several books, from French to English. Molly Ringwald, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you for having me. It's an honor. In Capote vs. the Swans, you play Joanne Carson, talk show host Johnny Carson's second wife. And to set that up for everyone, when Joanne divorced Johnny, she became an exile from the Hollywood elite,

which meant that she was not one of Truman Capote's swans, these high society women he loved. But as he himself was exiled from writing about this secret world of high society women, he sought your character, Joanne, for refuge. I want to play a clip. And in this clip I'm about to play, Truman, who is played by Tom Hollander, comes to Los Angeles to attend Thanksgiving at Joanne Carson's home after he's been excluded from a socialite's guest's elegant high annual celebration. And disappointed, Truman and his boyfriend drive up to Carson's house. The boyfriend is angry to have to go to this party and stays in the car.

And Truman goes out to greet your character, Joanne Carson. Let's listen. Hi, honey. Oh, hi. I come bearing gifts. Gracias. Thank you, thank you. Happy Thanksgiving.

Why is your friend sitting in the car? John wants me to buy him a house in Malibu. Little Prince Papa is pouting. Once he realizes there's a Manhattan waiting for him, he'll come in. When's dinner? In an hour, but there's lots of snacky, drinky things. I hope you like nachos and tamales. in an hour, but there's lots of snacky, drinky things. I hope you like nachos and tamales.

Do you know what that is? I love where he doesn't even answer. He's like, uh-huh, yeah. That was a scene from the new FX series, Capote vs. the Swans. Molly, what drew you to this role role and how did you prepare for it? I was really interested by Truman Capote and I loved, you know, everything about that story. You know, I mean, those swans, those women, if you're, you know, I've always been intrigued by fashion and they're all such incredible, you know, fashion icons. And I was just really excited that this was being made. I was surprised that it had never been made up until this point.

Can you summarize for us who the Swans were? The Swans were just basically these very glamorous women who are married to these mostly important businessmen. And the series has been called The Original Housewives. That was kind of how they marketed it, which I thought was sort of brilliant in that all of the housewives, the real housewives, are all these women who actually are really successful themselves. Like they now they have, you know, most of them have their own businesses and very successful women. But when the Swans happened, it was a different time. And these women were not really allowed to have their own careers.

They really kind of lived adjacent to these powerful, successful men. And it's also interesting that some of the women were swans and some were not. You know, like Joanne Carson was married to Johnny Carson, who was a powerful man. But I don't think that she actually was a swan. I mean, actually, she called herself an ugly duckling, even though she was not. So much of the swan's lives revolve around keeping up appearances and image and maintaining a reputation. Every move is kind of predicated on what will others think. And I thought it was really perceptive that you said that the world Capote was part of is very similar to kind of what you see in your kids' lives.

You're the mother of two middle schoolers. And when you said that, I was like, oh, my gosh, yes, this is very middle school. It is. It is. I mean, you know, that's pretty much what my personal life is about, you know, outside of my career. I'm at home mothering my kids. And, you know, every night we do family dinner in our house, which is really thanks to my husband. He's the one that really keeps the family dinner.

And it's not easy, you know, when you have teenagers doing family dinner. But it's the one time that we all connect. And, yeah, almost every family dinner is about the politics that go on at school and which click and, you know, who's in which click and, you know, and how to navigate that. And, you know, when one person falls out of one click, where do they go? I mean, it's like, it's exactly like The Swans and that, you know, it's exactly the same, I think. Well, as you mentioned, this is your second time in a Ryan Murphy film in the Ryan Murphy universe. Do you like working with the same director,

producers over and over again? I mean, you had this similar experience in working with John Hughes, the late filmmaker for the movies that were iconic in the 80s, The Breakfast Club, Pretty in Pink, and 16 Candles. It almost feels like maybe it's like following a boss from job to job in a way. I really love working with the same people as long as I like the people, as long as they're good. And, you know, if I have a positive experience, yeah. I mean, I stopped working with John after, you know, the three movies that I did with him. I was supposed to do one more, and then it didn't end up happening. Some kind of wonderful. Well, I was asked, no, I was asked to do some kind of wonderful, which was directed by Howie Deutsch, who also directed Pretty in Pink. And he asked me

to do it, but I didn't. Because at that point, I was really worried about, you know, people never seeing me in another project. So that was my feeling was that I had to work with somebody else because I was going to get typecast. But you know what? I got typecast anyway, so I should have just kept working with him. Well, I mean, I want to talk to you a little bit about that because you were the poster child for a generation. You were on the cover of Time magazine. You were a household name. But you've done so much more since then. How do you reconcile or deal with the fact that for a certain generation of people, you will always be seen as a teenager? I don't know.

It sort of depends on the day. You know, there's been times where I've been really frustrated by that. I feel like people always think that I'm younger than I am or older than I am. Really? Yeah. The older is interesting. And I also started really young. A lot of times people, I'm the same age as a lot of people that became famous in the 90s. But they'll think that I'm older because I was famous in the 80s. Yes, that makes sense. Yeah, so I feel like those films are always, they're iconic and they're special.

I don't like to use the word iconic because I feel like it's overused, but they really are. Those films are really iconic. Let's take a short break, Molly. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Molly Ringwald about her new role in the FX series Capote vs. the Swans about the high society women he loved and betrayed. We are also talking about her career. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Let's get back to my interview with Molly Ringwald. She's in the new FX series Capote vs. the Swans, and she plays Joanne Carson, ex-wife of talk show host Johnny Carson, and one of novelist Truman Capote's most loyal friends. She was with him at the very end of his life.

Ringwald grew to fame in the 1980s for movies like Sixteen Candles, The Breakfast Club, and Pretty in Pink. I want to actually play a clip from Pretty in Pink, which came out in 1986, because you've written quite a bit about your experiences during that time period in working with John Hughes and also just reflecting back on the time period as we move forward in time, especially during the Me Too movement. In this clip that I'm about to play, this is from Pretty in Pink. You played a high school senior, Andy Walsh, who lives with her working class father in a Chicago suburb.

One of the rich, popular kids, Blaine, played by Andrew McCarthy, falls for you and eventually asks you out to the prom before pulling away at the last minute after being pressured not to date you by one of his friends, played by James Spader. So in this scene, your character Andy confronts Blaine about why he's ignoring her.

Let's listen. I called you three times and I left messages. Yeah? Well, I didn't get them. My family, they're very responsible about that stuff, you know? I waited for you this morning. Yeah? Where? Parking lot.

I saw you and I thought that you saw me. No. What about prom, Blaine? Andy, I'm having a bad day. Can we talk later? No. What about prom? Come on, why don't we just meet after school? No! What about prom? Andy, come on.

Just say it. What? Just say it. I want to hear you say it andy please all right i want to hear you say it a month ago i asked somebody else and i forgot you're a liar you're a filthy don't go lie you didn't have the guts to tell me the truth just say it i'm not lying tell me what tell me what do you want to hear just tell me the truth. Just say it. I'm not lying. Tell me. What? Tell me. What do you want to hear? Just tell me. What?

You're ashamed to be seen with me. No, I am not. You're ashamed to go out with me. You're afraid. You're terrified that your great friends want to prove. Just say it. That was a scene from the 1986 cult classic

Pretty in Pink. I was very young when I saw this film, Molly, and I still, I still, at that scene, it takes me back to high school and rejection in that same way. I know. It actually makes me emotional. It does, huh? It does, because I feel for her, and I also can't help but hear my kids in it. That's what I really love about. I mean, I have written extensively about the issues that I have with certain elements of the films and what I don't agree with and the elements that don't age well. But the fact that he would write

a movie that John would write, that John John would write a whole film about a girl getting uninvited to prom, and how huge that is. In the life of a teenager, that is huge. And of course, hearing myself, I hear my younger voice, and it takes me back. You actually watched, it was The Breakfast Club with your daughter several years ago. Yeah, I did. Yeah. What have been your kids' reaction to seeing this younger version and also playing what you say John Hughes really captured, the realities of a young person? Well, I played it for my now 20-year-old daughter when she was 10, which was really, I think, too young to watch The Breakfast Club. But all of her friends had seen it, and she didn't want to watch it at a slumber party.

She didn't want to watch it with someone else. She wanted to watch it with me. So we did watch it, and I ended up doing a piece on that, that experience for This American Life. This American Life, yeah. And it was really interesting to watch it with her and what she got out of it because, you know, at the age of 10, she, of course, there was a lot of stuff that went over her head,

mercifully, because, you know, we didn't have to have that conversation. But what we did get out of it was that it had to do with her feelings with us, you know, that I was putting pressure on her, you know, because at the time, you know, we were having a hard time with, you know, I was having a hard time with, you know, making her do her homework and feeling like, you know, oh, come on, do that, you know, I was having a hard time with, you know, making her do her homework and feeling like, you know, oh, come on, do that, you know, I wanted her to be a certain kind of student. So it was really an incredible experience to be able to have that conversation and actually feel like it changed my relationship with her. And it changed my way of parenting, basically. It changed your way of parenting. You were able to have language based on that.

Yeah. That movie gave you language. Yeah. And, you know, also when I watch the movies now, of course, I'm very curious about the parents because the parents are really, they're not seen. You only hear about the parents from what the kids feel. But you don't know what the situation is at home. I mean, all of them feel like they're being either neglected or misunderstood or outright abused. You know, as John Bender's character played by Judd Nelson is physically abused by his father. So yeah, that was a really interesting experience and also

pretty surreal. But it took a lot out of me. And I knew I was going to have to watch the movies again with my now 14-year-old twins. And it took me a long time to feel like I could do it again. And we just watched the movies about, I don't know, a long time to feel like I could do it again. And we just watched the movies about, I don't know, three weeks ago. Did you have similar insights? They loved the movie. They didn't take out their phones once, which was incredible. It's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was looking. I mean, the phones were there and I was like, how long is it going to take for them to pick up their phones? And they didn't.

But it was also interesting because they are older, you know, the, you know, sexual harassment that my character Claire experiences, you know, which she is. She's harassed by John Bender the whole time. You know, that really did not resonate with them. They could not figure out why I went with him in the end. It was really sort of confusing. Like, they were just bewildered. And it didn't seem strange to me that she goes with Bender in the end, which is interesting that that doesn't seem strange. I mean, I had a great relationship with my father, you know, who passed away a couple years ago. So there's really no reason why that should have been normalized for me. But it was.

This idea that, oh, if somebody treats you badly or isn't complimentary or whatever, that that should be the person that you go for. But strangely, it was. And that's just not the case anymore. I thought it was just really interesting, these questions that you posed to yourself and to the audience in your New Yorker piece in 2018, where you wrote, how are we meant to feel about art that we both love and oppose?

What if we are in the unusual position of having helped create it? What answers or thoughts have you actually come to about where those movies sit in our culture, especially now having these experiences with your children? Yeah, I do love the movies, and I'm really glad that I made them. It's not black or white, you know, those movies are not perfect, but there is so much good in them. And there are also things that are not good, or there's things that have changed. The lack of diversity bothers me in those movies. Certainly the, you know, the sexual politics bother me, but they were movies of a time. To me, that is one of the dangers of this desire to erase the past. I don't personally believe that you can erase the past,

but you can look at it and you can debate and you can talk about it. And I believe that talking about it and understanding it is what sets us free, not trying to erase it. Molly, I'd love to talk with you a little bit more about how you choose what roles to play, because they're so varied when I look at your career beyond the 80s. You appeared most recently in episode three of season one of The Bear as a meeting coordinator for Al-Anon. And to refresh people's memory who's seen The Bear, The Bear is about a chef named Carmen in the fine dining world who returns home to run a family sandwich shop after his brother dies by suicide. And Carmen goes to an Al-Anon meeting to try and understand his brother's struggles with addiction and suicide. And in this scene I'm going to play, we hear Molly's character sharing her story. Let's listen.

It's hard to hear it. So I just keep saying it. I didn't cause it. I can't control it. I didn't cause it. I can't control it. I can't cure it. A lot of my life, I thought I was just a victim. And because my husband drank so much, this would happen or that would happen. The short term was always so awful.

I thought if I just could throw out his liquor, you know, hide whatever he was on, that would fix it. You can't curb that kind of chaos until the thinking changes, until the foundations change, until the chemistry changes. And it's difficult. I know I played a part in his abuse.

And I'm really mad at myself for that. But, but, if there's anything good that came out of it, it's that it made me realize that the best thing for me to do is just to try to keep my side of the street clean. Instead of trying to fix everything, just remove myself from any situation that is or could become toxic. That was a scene from the FX Hulu series, The Bear.

And Molly, it's a very small scene, but it's so powerful. You're only in this series for a short period of time, but how did you come to this and choosing this role? I was offered that, which, you know, I knew that it was going to be a cameo. I knew that it wasn't a character that, you know, that came back. I mean, she could come back. In fact, I hope she comes back. But I was sent the script. I was sent a couple of scripts and I watched the first episode, I think, but it hadn't aired yet. But I was so taken with it. I was so taken with the writing and everything about it. And I just said I wanted to do it. And I did. And I'm so taken with the writing and everything about it. And I just said I wanted to do it.

And I did. And I'm so happy that I did. And I'm so happy that the series, you know, has done well. But I just knew that it was going to be great. And also it's really interesting that that monologue that I have is one of the only monologues that I've ever had that I didn't change one word, not one word. It was so well written. I mean, even that one line where I say, but, and then I say, but, you know, that it sounds so natural, but it was written that way. And it was such a pleasure to do because it was so well written. And, you know, and those kind of

opportunities don't come along or they haven't come along a lot for me, you know, where something is so well written that it makes the acting so easy. When you say that you don't often get roles like this or the scripts that you're given don't have this kind of depth and meat. What is it? What are the types of roles that are passed across your desk in years past that you just say no? I've been in mom purgatory for years. You went from being a teenager to a mom. Yes, yes. And I always like to say that I sort of skipped being the sexy aunt or, you know, like, I don't know. I really do feel like I went from a teenager to mom. And it was like, all they wanted me to play was a teenager for years. And I felt like there were a lot of parts that I missed out on because I was sort of too young. Like there were a couple of movies that I had gotten close on and that I didn't get. And it was heartbreaking to me. But a lot of what I heard was, well, she's really too young. Yeah. And then all of a sudden it was the mom. And, you know, and I am.

Yeah. And there was nothing in between. And I am a mom, and, you know, there's nothing wrong with being a mom. I love being a mom, but I want to play somebody who pushes the story along, you know, where I'm not just sort of patting my kid on the head and saying, you'll figure it out, honey. You know, and I have played a lot of those because I'm a working actress, and it's also how I earn my living and help pay for my family. So, you know, I take what is offered, but I can't say that the opportunities have just been, you know, and then sort of taking what I could as an actor. But I feel like that's changing. So I'm really grateful for that. Molly Ringwald, I really enjoyed this conversation. Me too. Thank you so much. Thank you. Molly Ringwald is in the new FX series Feud, Capote vs. the Swans. Perfect Days is the latest film by the German director Wim Wenders, who's best known for such films like the 1980s hits Paris, Texas, and Wings of Desire. The movie, which tells the story of a sanitation worker in Tokyo,

is one of the five Oscar nominees for Best International Feature Film. Our critic-at-large John Power says, Perfect Days fills you with a good feeling about life. One of the most famous scenes in Japanese cinema comes in Yasujiro Ozu's classic Tokyo Story. A young woman named Kyoko is grumbling to her radiantly noble sister-in-law Noriko about how badly her siblings have been acting. Isn't life disappointing? Kyoko asks, to which Noriko replies calmly, yes, it is. Dealing with life's limitations is the theme of Perfect Days, the latest movie by Wim Wenders, the venerable German director for whom Ozu has

long been an idol. Shot entirely in Tokyo, in Japanese, this elegant sentimental fable is Wenders' best fiction feature in decades. Although it flirts with glibness, Perfect Days asks questions about how to live in the face of need, loneliness, and disappointment. It centers on a 50s-ish looking bachelor, Hirayama, played by the great Japanese screen actor Koji Yakusho, whom you will know from Tempopo, Shall We Dance?, and Memoirs of a Geisha. Hirayama's life may sound unbearably grim. He works cleaning public toilets in Tokyo. But before we go any farther, it's necessary to say that these toilets, all of them real, are spectacular. Some look like spaceships, others like country cottages.

The most amazing ones have see-through walls that magically go dark when someone steps inside. You'll wish your town had toilets like these. Anyway, we quickly grasp that Hirayama is not unhappy. He lives a highly ritualized existence whose routine we soon come to know. He wakes up, spritzes his plants, looks with pleasure at the morning sky, buys canned coffee from a nearby vending machine, and then drives his van off to work playing old music cassettes by the likes of the Kinks, Patti Smith, and Otis Redding, who's still sitting on the dock

of the bay. Once he arrives at the toilets, he silently cleans them with the efficiency and care of an artisan, unlike his amiably feckless young colleague, Takashi. Even as those around him seem lonely or lost, Hirayama takes time to savor life's small beauties, sunlight tickling the trees, children laughing in a park, the invariably friendly greeting at the small luncheonette where he's a regular. He uses an old digital camera to photograph things that move or delight him.

All of this is beautifully put across by vendors, with no small help from cinematographer Franz Lustig's crisp images of Tokyo, and the tautly seductive editing of Tony Froshhammer, which draws you into the rhythms of a monkish man who appears to know how to live, as they say, in the moment. As he says, now is now. To be honest, Hirayama's days are a bit too perfect, starting with the fact that this handsome actor looks so good in his blue cleaner's uniform, and that the toilets he scrubs are

suspiciously unsoiled. By the time we inevitably hear Lou Reed singing A Perfect Day, you may well wonder if Vendors has sold himself on a Disneyfied vision of zenned-out simplicity, one fed by Western clichés about Japanese-ness as a path to spiritual grace. I mean, try to imagine believing a story about a beatific toilet cleaner in Berlin. Or New York City. Against this naively sweetened portrait of menial work, Vendors places shadowy images that suggest life's evanescence.

And eventually someone does come along to shake up Hirayama's perfect routine, forcing both him and us to reconsider the life he's been leading. I won't give anything away, the movie's too delicate for that, but I will say that it builds to a scene in Hirayama's van that, to the strains of Nina Simone, thrilled me with its rush of shifting emotions and interweaving of light and dark. This scene is brilliantly performed by Yakusho.

Although Hirayama rarely speaks, you see why he won Best Actor at Cannes. Open-faced and watchful, Yakusho couldn't be more touching as a man who's learned not merely to hold himself together amidst imperfect circumstances, but to find joy within them. We twice hear the song House of the Rising Sun, the old folk tune lamenting a life ruined by time spent in a house of ill repute. Yet the movie itself is no lament. Vendors once dreamed of being a priest, and here he nudges us toward transcendence. Constantly showing us Daybreak Over Tokyo,

he reminds us that the true House of the Rising Sun is the world. But rather than bemoan the ways that the world is dark and disappointing, the film suggests that we find and appreciate the transient beauty around us. This may not make our days perfect, but it will make them better. John Powers reviewed the new film Perfect Days. Coming up, Busy Phillips. She got her start in the 1999 critically acclaimed but canceled show Freaks and Geeks. She's now starring in the new Mean Girls movie. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Our next guest, actor Busy Phillips, co-stars in the new movie musical version of the 2004 film Mean Girls.

It's just one of the Tina Fey projects Phillips has premiered in this year. Next month, the third season of the comedy Girls 5 Eva premieres on Netflix. Busy Phillips recently spoke with Fresh Air's Anne Marie Baldonado. Busy Phillips has been involved in projects lousy with teenagers, dating back to her breakout role on the critically acclaimed but canceled show Freaks and Geeks. She was 19, playing tough girl Kim Kelly. Since then, she starred in Dawson's Creek, Cougar Town, and Vice Principals. She wins people over with her comedic work on TV shows and movies, but she also does it with her honest, straightforward approach to talking directly to her fans. She does it through her honest, straightforward approach to talking directly to

her fans. She does it through social media, her podcasts, and her writing. In her best-selling memoir, This Will Only Hurt a Little, she writes about her childhood and her career, including candid, hilarious, and also heartbreaking stories about the rejection and misogyny she's dealt with in Hollywood and in the rest of her life. She writes about having an abortion when she was 15 and the death of many of her close friends, including fellow actor Heath Ledger. Before we talk about all of that, let's hear her in her latest film, Mean Girls, which is the movie version of the musical based on the 2004 movie written by and starring Tina Fey. All versions of Mean Girls are based on the nonfiction book Queen Bees and Wannabes about the complicated and cruel power dynamics

teen girls live with. Busy Phillips plays the mother of the Queen Bee, Regina George. In this scene, the group of popular girls, which includes Regina, her friends, and the new girl, Katie, are in Regina's room. Mrs. George comes in and tries to make nice with the girls. Oh, Regina! You're never going to believe what I found in your closet this morning.

What are you in my closet? Because I'm doing that Japanese organizing thing where you take a little nap in the closet. I found your burn book. Katie, this is just like the funniest thing that the girls used to do. Please leave. You got it, baby. But girls, I'm gonna be right downstairs. If you need to talk to me about anything,

I mean at Deep Stuff or boy troubles or blackheads or alcohol poisoning, you know I have been through it all. Honey, I am not a regular mom. I'm at coolmom with six O's. Hashtag aging hotly. Hashtag get out. Okay, girls, just have so much fun. Remember, these are the best days of your life. It does not get better. Busy Phillips, welcome to Fresh Air. Oh, thanks so much for having me. What a dream.

What did the original movie Mean Girls mean to you when it came out in 2004? Oh, God, just that I was jealous that I wasn't in it. To be honest, just another job I didn't get. Oh, gosh. No, I loved the original, but I was salty that I wasn't, that I couldn't even audition for it because we were filming, I was filming White Chicks and, or I'd already gotten the part for White Chicks. The filming was overlapping and no shade to White Chicks, although all shade to White

Chicks, because at the time when it, when White Chicks came out, it was like universally panned. People hated it. It was like, honestly embarrassing that I was in it in the industry and the world at large. Now, perspective is everything. And I am very happy to say that over the years I realized what an actual cult classic White Chicks has become. And I'm so proud that I was in that ridiculous movie in 2004. I think what's so funny and sad about the Mrs. George character in the original movie is that she's trying so hard to be one of the girls and sort of relive her high school through her daughters and her daughter hates it. Also, her daughter is terrible to her and to the

other girls. And maybe that has to do with Mrs. George. But I wonder what you think about that original character and the way you see her, you know, in the new movie, like that, that, like, being so thirsty, I guess. You know, it's really interesting, because when Tina wrote the original Mean Girls and Amy was starring as Mrs. George in it, neither one of them, I don't even know if Tina had her eldest daughter yet. That's right. I don't know. I mean, I know for a fact Amy wasn't a mom yet. But what was so interesting to me was just how much I related to Mrs. George in this moment. As, you know, I'm like, I'm a young mom.

I am cool. And people think I'm cool. By the way, I am famous. People think I'm cool. But you are just never cool to your kids. Ever. As much as you want it you know in the musical in the original musical um mrs george just has one little snippet of a song and it's a reprise from the song that

gretchen sings what's wrong with me and to me watching that on the stage in the theater with my own kids next to me was when I just cried. And I feel like I tried to, I tried the best I could to sort of imbue the character with that thing of like, she's been waiting her whole life to have girlfriends who love her and she has these girls around her and she's still on the outside looking in and she's like even as a mom what's wrong with me I just think it's so deeply relatable and sad and like it just kind of breaks your heart. I know Tina Fey asked you to do this part in Mean Girls. And this is now a few projects that you've worked on with Tina, including your talk show Busy Tonight and the comedy Girls 5 Eva. What's it like working with her on projects? And what does her career mean to you?

Because she definitely came up on SNL, you know, very male-dominated comedy structure. But she also famously works with a lot of her female comedian friends. Well, look, I don't know how I got so lucky. Except that I'll take it. And I'm so glad. I'm so grateful for it. Because I did spend so much of my early career wanting to be in the boys club of comedy and always feeling like, I don't understand why I'm not. I don't understand why I don't get. I don't know. I just don't get it. Why am I not in this club? You know, and even to the, you know, the point of like Judd and working with those guys again and again for a while. When I was in my early 20s, I do remember feeling like, well, wait, why can't, why am I not the girl in Knocked Up? Or what, you know, like what's

happening here? And then to have Tina come in and, and I was such a huge, huge fan of hers. Of course, like her career meant everything to me. Like there was nothing better than 30 Rock to me. I just it made me laugh so hard and I didn't understand how there were so many jokes. Like, it's so dense. It's so dense. I mean, that's what sometimes on Girls5eva, I'm like, I don't even know what this is, but I'm going to say it because I assume it's a joke. You know, like, I don't know what it is.

But anyway, so Tina, you know, to get to work with her, because I've gotten to work with her in so many different capacities, both as a producer who's pitching me jokes for my show, helping us break it and figure out what it is, and then giving me, giving me, handing me these amazing roles. Well, I want to ask you about Girls 5 Baba, which comes back for its third season in March, this time on Netflix. Let's hear a scene from it, from the pilot. The group hasn't seen each other in years, and they're living their lives separately. But a hip hop artist has used an old song of theirs, their main hit, as a sample. And so their music is being heard again and they get a little bit of money for it. This scene begins with a clip from the past where your character Summer introduced herself. And then the scene cuts to where they are now. And Sara Bareilles' character is visiting your character Summer

for the first time in years. Let's listen. I am Summer, and the media trainer said to repeat the question in my answer. So why don't you introduce yourself, Summer? Thanks, Carson. I am Summer. Oh my god! Stop! Shut up! I thought that was you on my Nest Cam!

Summer, you're home! Always! Oh, I just heard us during Peloton! We are back! What are we gonna do? You know, Carnival has a 90s themed cruise that goes around the Pacific Garbage Patch. No, no, no. I just have your licensing check. It expires on Friday, so... And I brought you this baby gift that I've had for you for

like five ever. That is so sweet. Thank you. Oh, come. You have to meet Stevia, but don't touch her. She's not vaccinated. Oh my God. You have to meet Stevia, but don't touch her. She's not vaccinated. Oh, my God. That's a scene from the first episode of Girls 5, Baba. And I think what's great about the show is how it pokes fun at the music industry or entertainment and how the industry treats both women in the past as well as in the current day. Can you share any of these crazy things that were said to you or things that were asked of you?

God, so many things were asked of me. I mean, I've been asked to lose weight like a billion times. When have I not been asked to lose weight? Well, Tina didn't ask me to lose weight and Paul didn't ask me to lose weight. But after that, forget it. It was just a constant stream of losing weight. Minus white chicks. But in the script, it legitimately says they're a fat friend.

That's how my character is described. I was a size eight at the time. OK, they're fat friends. That's OK. Anyway, but yeah, like I was asked I I was told at one point to consider removing, having all of my moles removed on my neck and my face and my body. And I was like, I don't understand that. I think it'll just be really horrific looking scars. My dad's had some moles removed for biopsies.

It doesn't look great, guys. I'm not going to lie. Um, I was told by a head of casting at a studio that I wasn't going to have any kind of film career unless I did a Maxim FHM stuff magazine, one of the girls, like at the time it was these, you know, these magazines. And the casting, the head of casting was like, I get a call from the executive when it comes, when the Maxim Hot 100 comes out. And they have, they've circled the girls that they want to put in movies. And you're not going to be circled, you're not going to be on that list unless you do it. Now, I want to ask you about Freaks and Geeks, which was your first big TV show.

It was on TV from 1999 to 2000. It was a show by Judd Apatow and Paul Feig, and it launched a lot of actors' careers. I wanted to play a scene from the pilot. And I believe this might have been the scene that you did when you were auditioning for the role. You play Kim Kelly, a tough girl who has no trouble making fun of people at school and is skeptical of the main character, Lindsay, and she's mean to her too. In this scene, though, you're in the hallway at school

and you're making fun of Sam Weir, who's the younger brother played by John Francis Daly. Hey, geek. Got a problem? Uh, no. I was just looking at a friend of mine.

Are you telling me that I look like a friend of yours? Hey, Kim. I think he likes you. Is that true? Do you like me? Do you love me? I like you like a friend Do you love me? I like you like a friend. I don't think so.

I think you like me like me. I think you want to kiss me. Do you want to kiss me? I don't know. Come on. Just one little kiss. I'll be your girlfriend. Your dreams, geek.

Is that my voice? That's a scene from the first episode of the show, Freaks and Geeks. Now, you've said, you know, the character Kim, she's had a difficult family life and she was tough and aggressive. And maybe that was because that's what she had experienced herself growing up. And I'm just wondering what you related to most about Kim Kelly, because you really capture her. You do such a good job with her. I think that so much of what I was doing was just very intuitive. And yeah, there was a girl in my high school that when I read the character reminded me a little bit of Kim and she scared me so much. And also like the anger, I related so deeply to anger and I had so much of it at 19. I had so much of it. I mean, I still have so much of it.

I like still I'm like meditating and do my therapy and like taking my shoes off and trying to ground myself. I do all the things, you know what I mean? Like, but I do have that thing and it comes from a lot of different places. But I think that, yeah, for Kim, it really comes out of just feeling misunderstood and not having, you know, parents at home who trusted her. But I also like really related to Kim in terms of being a person who was smart, but that didn't necessarily translate to the subjects that were being taught in school, in the ways that they were teaching it in school, in a, you know, just very basic public school system. So, you know, just very basic public school system. So, you know, I related to that a lot. Well, you had been telling your mom that you

wanted to get an agent ever since you were in third grade. What made you so sure? Like, what did you love about saying that you wanted to be an actor? Well, you know, I had a lisp when I was little. I was like Cindy Brady, which is a reference. I don't know. People, you never know. When I say that now, people are like, huh? Our listeners are older. I know.

That's true. That is true. But in case you're not, I couldn't say my R's or my T-H's or my S's in first grade and second grade. And then I got a speech therapist and I would get like a penny every time I would say, you know, like it wasn't a lot of money, guys, that I was getting for saying my words correctly. It didn't motivate me. But there was a talent show and my mom thought, I was like always performing, you know, my whole life. And so my mom kind of convinced me to do this poem in the talent show, which had a lot of the aforementioned letters that were hard for me. But I worked so hard on it because I

wanted to, I wanted to do really well and I wanted to make people laugh. It was like a silly poem. And I did it. And it felt so good. And then I was like, oh, this is the thing. Everybody has to look at me. And if I do it right, they're going to laugh and they're going to clap. And everybody's going to be looking at me. And if I do it right, they're going to laugh and they're going to clap. And everybody's going to be looking at me. So that kind of started it.

Busy Phillips, it's been so great to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I'm sorry I talk so much. Busy Phillips spoke with Anne-Marie Baldonado. She's now starring in Mean Girls, a musical based on the 2004 film. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. For Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Moseley.