Fresh Air - Best Of: Questlove's Hip-Hop History / 'Always Sunny' Actor Rob McElhenney

Episode Date: June 22, 2024

Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson still remembers the first time he heard The Sugarhill Gang's 1980 hit "Rapper's Delight." It felt like a paradigm shift: "Suddenly they start talking in rhythmic poetry and we didn't know what to make of it," The Roots bandleader says. Questlove's new book is Hip-Hop is History. The Always Sunny in Philadelphia co-creator and co-star Rob McElhenney bought a Welsh football club during the pandemic. McElhenney says he and actor Ryan Reynolds bought the team to "bring hope to a town that had fallen on hard times." The FX series Welcome to Wrexham, now in its third season on Hulu, chronicles the team, its owners and fans.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Sam Brigger. Today, Questlove returns. His new book, Hip Hop is History, is a personal history told from his perspective as performer and DJ, who's also become a historian of the music.

Questlove is the co-founder of the hip hop band The Roots, the house band of The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. He's won several Grammys, as well as an Oscar for his concert documentary, Summer of Soul. Also actor, writer, and soccer team owner Rob McElhenney. In 2020, he and Ryan Reynolds bought Wrexham AFC, a soccer team in Wales. The attempt to bring the team into higher levels of professional soccer is the subject of the FX documentary series Welcome to Wrexham. McElhenney also co-created and co-stars in the TV comedies It's Always Sunny

in Philadelphia and Mythic Quest. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Sam Brigger in for Terry Gross. In 2020, Rob McElhenney and Ryan Reynolds bought a Welsh soccer team, or as it's called in Wales, a football club, that was struggling in the lowest tiers of professional British football. The club is in the town of Wrexham, a city that itself had been struggling. Their idea was to turn the team around, with its own troubles and a fierce loyalty to its athletic teams, also the home of fresh air.

The co-owners and the town and the soccer team's trials and tribulations are the subject of the Emmy-winning FX documentary series Welcome to Wrexham, now in its third season and streaming on Hulu. McElhaney is also an executive producer of the show. At the beginning of season three, Wrexham has successfully moved up a level, which is called being promoted, only to find themselves facing off against better teams and more problems, like their amazing striker Paul Mullen suffering a punctured lung and having to sit out the start of the season.

While not stressing over the soccer team, McElhenney continues to star in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the longest-running live-action sitcom in TV history. Dethroning the adventures of Ozzie and Harriet, the 50s family show that Sunny in Philadelphia couldn't have less in common with. It follows five amoral friends and the destruction and havoc they leave in the wake of their misadventures. McElhenney co-created It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia,

as well as the Apple TV comedy Mythic Quest about the office culture of a video game company. Now, I have to admit that some people have trouble pronouncing Rob's last name. Fortunately, his co-owner, Ryan Reynolds, has a song to help us out with that. Sure, he's got a pretty face that people know they know. They think they recognize him from his big time TV show. But despite the accolades, despite the load of fame, one thing that they do not know is how to say his name. Pronouncing all those N's and E's and H's can perplex them.

So here's a little birthday gift from all your mates in Wrexham. It's McElhenney. McElhenney. While ways to massacre and mispronounce it there are many. McElhenney. It's McElhenney. McElhenney. McElhenney. That's Ryan Reynolds from Welcome to Wrexham, singing about his friend, soccer team co-owner, and our guest, Rob McElhenney. Rob McElhenney, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. It is an honor to be here. I have been waiting for this call for almost 20 years. It's such an honor to be here. Thank you. Well, we're really happy to have you here. Let's start with how you came to have the idea to buy

a soccer team in Wales. In the show, it comes across as a pretty casually made decision. I'm imagining it wasn't. It came at a time in the middle of the pandemic, and I was sitting with my wife on the couch, and we were watching documentaries of anything I could find sports-related. And I was not, and I can call it soccer right now because we're talking to mostly an American audience. I was not, and I can call it soccer right now because we're talking to mostly an American audience. I was not a big soccer fan.

Of course, when the World Cup would come around every four years, I would watch that. I would get into that. But I didn't have a great love for soccer, as it were. But I watched a few documentaries and learned about this system of promotion and relegation, which is a system that is anathema to American sports, meaning if you lose, if you come in the lower two or three places in any given league, you are literally kicked out of the league and pushed down and out. And then on the other side of that, if a team is in a league below and they finish in the top two or three,

they are promoted to the league above. And then I found out how many leagues there are in British football. And it was somewhere in the vicinity of 18 to 25. And I just couldn't believe it. And there's an analogy made. Someone tries to describe how this works. Like the Yankees, if they just lost and lost and lost and lost, Yeah. And in theory, you could take one of those teams, invest enough capital and build enough

infrastructure to take that team all the way from that league, maybe it's League 9, maybe it's League 20, all the way up to the Premier League. So you were just intrigued with the idea of trying to do that? Yes, it was in combination with us being in the idea of trying to do that? When I saw this town who were so in love with the football club, now I have to call it football because that's what they call it. It was actually an English town and they were so in love with their club that it was clear that their identity was wrapped up in it. And that resonated with me because of my love for the Eagles, the Phillies, the Sixers, and the Flyers. And I know what it feels like in the city when those teams are doing well. You can feel it throughout the city. The entire city is energized.

And not only that, there are tangible results that come along with that. There are new markets created. There is a direct impact on the economy. Like I said, I love sports and we do pretty well economically, but I could never it and that we could get them promoted through the ranks. But most importantly, what we could do is bring hope to a town that had fallen on hard times, just simply through energizing the football club that was at the center of that town. So that's how it started. How did you come to choose Wrexham itself? Was someone scouting out potential teams for you? So I had this idea in a moment, and I turned to Caitlin, who was on the couch with me,

and I said, I would like to buy one of these football teams, and I think we could do it. And she said, okay, that sounds good. Do some research. So I just took out a computer, and I Googled, how do I buy a sports team? And people laugh at that and think I'm not serious, and I'm serious. And what came up was a few articles, one from the New York Times. And it was about this man named Steve Horowitz, who works at Inner Circle Sports in New York City. And I called him. We spoke and he said, I want to do this regardless of how, quote unquote, small the deal might be. I believe

that there's real value to this. I tasked him with going on a search for clubs. And the criteria was, find me, please, a working class town, a working class club that has fallen on hard times and help me find people who love their team as much as I love the Philadelphia Eagles and the Philadelphia Phillies. And the truth is there were a few clubs that fit that bill. And the rich history part is the most fascinating. This club was originally incorporated in 1864. Right. Isn't that, it's the third oldest soccer club? Is that football? It's the third oldest football club in the world.

Right. And we play at a stadium called the Kairos, and it is the oldest international football stadium in the world. And it was originally built as a race course in 1802. I mean, you're talking about a stadium being built during the Thomas Jefferson administration. I mean, it's wild. Yeah, it's pretty wild.

Now, the documentary does a really good job sort of setting the soccer team, the football club, like within the context of the town, the people, and its history. And we meet a lot of great Wrexhamites, I guess you would say. How did the documentary choose the people to have on the show?

That's a testament to the producers of the show in the field. They just did a fantastic job of going around, going into pubs, going into restaurants, and asking, hey, who should I talk to? Who would be interesting? Who's got a great story to tell? And as we all know, as storytellers, the answer to that question is, everybody's got a great story to tell, you know how to ask the right questions. Whether or not they're willing to open up is obviously a very personal decision and then is up to the interviewer or the journalist, which field producers, to go in with a sense of curiosity and to be asking more questions than giving answers.

For a good long period of time, all we did was listen. And it was also quite revealing to me about how marginalized the town has been. Dating back to Thatcherism, I mean, really, they've had a rough go for a good 40 years. It's a coal mining town. And as we know, in this country, coal mining towns are going through a very difficult time. And you feel it. In the past, there's been some real sadness associated with that. There's a tragic mining disaster that happened, killing hundreds of people. Isn't it the worst mining disaster in Great Britain? Yes.

And the tragic part of that story, we do a whole episode about it where I go and visit the memorial and the site with my father. And the vast majority of the men and sometimes boys that were in that mine had tickets to the game the next day in their pockets. um when you asked your wife caitlin olsen like whether she thought it was a good idea to partner with ryan reynolds she asked you if you thought your ego could handle sharing the space with him uh yes what did she mean even worse i i think i've said this publicly but i don't know if if i have if not i I feel like public radio is the proper place to divulge this information. I had this conversation as I was getting out of the shower because I was thinking about it in the shower. And I came out and I said, hey, what do you think about this? So I happened to be naked with my wife when I said it and she was getting ready for work. So I said, what do you think about me asking Ryan if he wants to be a part of this? And she said, well, I guess that just depends on whether or not your ego can handle sharing a screen with Ryan Reynolds. And I said, you know, it's not lost on me that I'm naked as you're saying that. But she was right. Really, the question she was asking was,

hey, this is something that's really important to you, and you recognize that by bringing Ryan in, it could very easily become the Ryan Reynolds show with that other guy. And it's something I thought not long about, because if I was actually doing what I said I wanted to do, which was to bring the most amount of opportunity for this club to be successful, then I knew having somebody like Ryan would raise the profile exponentially. In the show, you sing the Welsh national anthem. And I was just wondering,

maybe a stunning rendition of a few lines from the anthem? I'm definitely not going to sing. However, that was the first thing that I learned because, first of all, it's one of the most beautiful anthems in the world. It's a beautiful song. Something that's really fascinating about the Welsh is that they all sing, men and women, everybody sings. Not necessarily well, but they

sing. And I just love that idea that everybody is an artist. They can express themselves through singing, whether they have the talent or not. And the anthem is just something that galvanizes the entire nation. And I thought I'd have to learn that. But how about this? I'll do a party trick. I learned how to say the longest town name in Europe. It's all one word. Llanbaer Puskwingis Gogere Gwintrobo Santasilio Gogogoch.

That's great. That's the town. Does that translate into something? No, that's exactly what it is. That's just. That's the town. Does that translate into something? No, that's exactly what it is. That's just a name. It's just a town name. It's like Philadelphia, which, of course, has roots, has Greek roots, but still is what it is. Well, we need to take a short break.

If you're just joining us, we're speaking with actor, writer, and soccer team owner Rob McElhenney. He stars in the FX documentary series Welcome to Wrexham, now in its third season, as well as It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Mythic Quest. We'll be back after a break. This is Fresh Air Weekend. Rob, you grew up in South Philadelphia. Can you tell us a little bit about what the neighborhood was like when you were a kid? Yes, I grew up 1404 East Moy-Mensing Avenue, which is on the corner of Moy-Mensing and Dickinson, and was around the corner from the house that my mother grew up in.

And my grandparents were three houses down. Right next door to us was my great aunt, Josephine and uncle Joe, uh, up the avenue. Uh, all of my, my mother's brothers and sisters lived with their families. She had nine. Um, and, uh, my father was one of 10 and, uh, they started also in South Philadelphia, but then, uh, slowly matriculated out into Delaware County. So I spent the first 10 years, 11 years of my life in South Philadelphia. Your parents got divorced when you were around eight or nine. Your mom came out of the closet. This would have been maybe around 1985, I think. And I think it's fair to say that that wasn't the easiest time to be gay in America.

And perhaps even more the case in maybe a heavily Catholic neighborhood like South Philadelphia. It must have been tremendously difficult. And we've talked about it quite a bit. And I can try intellectually and emotionally to understand what that must have been like for her, but it's impossible. And the grace and dignity and respect and love that they both handled that situation with is mind-boggling to me.

Because when you do the math, they were in their 20s and I can't imagine and I've talked to my father about this so many times and I still can't really quite wrap my head around how he was able to navigate it. I was even wondering if you know at the age of 8 or 9 did you even understood what it meant for your mom to be gay?

No I didn't I just knew that she was leaving at least that's what it felt like um and she was leaving for a while um and i don't think that she had identified exactly um what was not working for her um she had three kids very quickly and then a very late term, uh, miscarriage. And I think that was a, was a catalyst, um, for, uh, a real reckoning of the position that, um, that, that she was in, in, in her life and needed time and space to go figure out, um, who she was and, and how she wanted to live her life. And of course, without abandoning her children. And I just remember, and again, I've talked to my dad about this quite a bit, and my mom, that my dad said, take the time that you need and come back when you're ready to come back and let's figure it out.

I just, I can't for the life of me understand how a person in their 20s with three children could have that response. Was it hard for you to be a kid with a gay mom? Like, were you bullied at school for that? Interestingly enough, no. So what wound up happening was my mother came back with a partner, Mary Taylor. Who she's still with today.

She's still with today. I have so many mothers. Mother's Day is a fascinating day. It costs a lot for flowers. Yeah. Wow. I have so many mothers. I was, I'm very, very fortunate in that regard. So she came back with, with Mary and said, this is,

this is the person that I love. My mother is really interesting too, because I haven't asked her in forever, but I don't even know that she identifies as gay. I would say, mom, you know, cause you're a kid and I'm trying to like put people into categories so I can rationalize it and understand it.

Are you not straight? No. Are you gay? No. Oh, okay. Are you bisexual? No. What are you?

And she said to me, I'm an American. I thought, I was like 15. I was like, that is the coolest answer ever. Basically, like what I took from it was I identify as an American. And in this country, we have the freedom to be whoever we want. And that's what I'm doing. And I thought, man, that's badass. Like at 15 to have your mother say something like that is really empowering. So from that point forward, she was with Mary and they still are together to this day.

But your experience at school is really just a function of how your friends react. And I was able to navigate making friends. And I happened to make friends with some of the larger members of any school I went to. And so that was always helpful because I, if someone was, you know, giving me a hard time, they would take care of it. And I'm still, they're still my best friends. Well, it seems like maybe you picked the right friends too at that point. Yes. Or, or they picked me either, either way. We, I have a text a text chain with them and I speak with them. And I'm not exaggerating when I say I speak with them every single day. There's about 12 guys. I went to aable and probably speaks to your character, but like you work with the same people and you carry people from like one project to the next.

What do you attribute that to? Good parents and a great community of people. I was really well educated in the way that I needed to be educated by the various schools that I went to. Interestingly enough, I was just diagnosed. I did a full neuropsych exam because a family member asked me to. And the information that came back was fascinating, but I was diagnosed with a series of neurodivergencies that I did not expect. And a host of learning differences that we used to call learning disabilities, which actually explains a lot. It explains a lot. Um, it explains a lot of why, um, certain testing I, I would do really well in, and then, um, other, uh, and then I would, I would be a poor student, um, and, and people would call me, um, lazy or, or dumb or, um, not living up to my potential. Um, and I was fortunate enough to have a school in St. Joe's Prep that was able to identify, without diagnosing it, was able to identify what I was good at and what I wasn't,

and helped me through not even a robust LD program, but just accepting me for who I was. I've just been fortunate and surrounded by the best people on earth. So why wouldn't you hold on to them desperately? That's what I do. I find the best people I can and I hitch my wagon to their stars and I hold on for dear life.

Well, Rob McElhenney, thank you so much for being on Fresh Air today. It's been a true honor. Thank you for having me. Actor, writer, and soccer team owner Rob McElhenney. The finale of the third season of Welcome to Wrexham is available for streaming on FX. Our next guest is Questlove. He's always involved in multiple projects, which is good for our show because it keeps providing opportunities to interview him. Today's occasion is the publication of his new book, Hip Hop is History.

It's written from his personal perspective as a band leader, obsessive fan and historian of the music. He's the co-founder of the hip hop band The Roots, which is the house band for The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. Questlove spoke with Terry recently. Questlove, welcome back to Fresh Air. It is always so much fun to have you on our show. So since this is the new book is Hip Hop is History, I thought we should start with the first rap record that you ever heard, which is the first rap record a lot of people, including me, ever heard.

And the song is Rapper's Delight by the Sugar Hill Gang. And I know you hate to be Captain Obvious, but this seems to be the place that we should start because it starts you off on your career in hip hop. So set the scene for us. Where did you first hear this? You know, I first heard Rapper's Delight at my grandmother's house doing the dishes with my sister. We thought it was the disco song Good Times by Chic. So, okay, we've heard that before. It's the number one song in the country, no big deal. And then suddenly they start talking in rhythmic poetry, and we didn't know what to make of it and there was a point maybe three

minutes into it where it didn't seem like the song was ever going to end and then i had a decision to make should i run upstairs in my bedroom to get my tape recorder so i can record the rest of it so i can perform it tomorrow at lunch in school or should of just stay here frozen looking at the radio because you know the whole thing is about like what am i going to tell my friends that i heard this song that changed my life but you can't explain what it is so basically i decided to run upstairs get my tape recorder and i didn't know that the song was 15 minutes long. So, you know, at the three-minute mark, I'm recording this 15-minute song. And pretty much I think I spent at least the next hour committing it to memory, writing it down, rehearsing it on the way to school. And when I got to lunch, three friends of mine heard it.

And we were trying to explain to the rest of our friends what it was. And I performed it. And I immediately saw the immediate effect of what it is to be popular. And so, yeah, Rapper's Delight. I mean, paradigm shift is probably understating what that moment meant for a lot of us. But you didn't become a rapper. You were a drummer. Well, I didn't see,

I think everyone starts off their passion as a spectator and then suddenly they get drawn into it. You know, and the thing is, is that with hip hop culture, I don't know it yet. You know, now if there's a version of life that allows like my current adult version to kind of travel back in time to, you know, visit eight year old me without that eight year old getting freaked out, like, hi, I'm you in the future.

Um, I don't know yet, but I'm already being trained and groomed for hip-hop because, number one, I'm living in a 3,000-album household. And a lot of those songs that I'm attracted to already will be part of my musical diet as I start to create music myself. And become a DJ. And become a DJ and a producer and all those things. They're helping me. As a drummer, I'm attracted to the part of the song that just lets the drums go for four bars, eight bars. So automatically a Bill Withers song. I'm attracted to those things. So

I will say that I was spectator for, you know, the first 10 years. And then once Public Enemy's second album comes out, it takes a nation of millions to hold us back. That's when I'm realizing the air quote, boring part of my parents' record collection has suddenly come to life. All right. So let's get back to eight-year-old Questlove when you heard hip hop for the first time. And we'll listen to the Sugarhill Gang's Rapper's Delight, the first commercially successful hiphop recording. Ha! The hibbit, the hibbit of a hip, hip hopper, you don't stop. Rock it out, baby, boppa to the boogity, bang, bang the boogie to the boogity beat. Now what you hear is not a test, I'm rapping to the beat. And me, the groove, and my friends are gonna try to move your feet. You see, I am Wonder Mike and I like to say hello. Up to the black, to the white, the red and the brown, to the purple and yellow. But first, I gotta bang, bang the boogie to the boogie.

Say up, jump the boogie to the bang, bang boogie. Let's rock. You don't stop. Rock the rhythm and I'll make your body rock. Well, so far you've heard my voice, but I brought two friends along. And next on the mic is my man Hank. Come on, Hank, sing that song. Check it out.

Well, I'm imp the dimp, the ladies pimp. The women fight for my delight. So that was the first commercially successful hip-hop record, Rapper's Delight by the Sugar Hill Gang. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded with Questlove. His new book is called Hip Hop is History. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Sam Brigger, and rhymed like I never did before. She's a damn fly guy. I'm in love with you.

Casting over legend. When you say hip-hop is history, the title of your book, hip-hop is literally history in the sense that it's always referring back to the past by sampling things. So hip-hop includes history. I'd like you to choose one of your favorite records for what it samples and how that adds to the recording. And I'm going to suggest that you choose something other than Public Enemy only because you've talked about them. We've heard you talk about them on the show before, so I want to hear something else. All right. I'll give you probably a better example because oftentimes people ask me, you know, what makes a record hip-hop?

I saw the Rolling Stones recently, and I was trying to explain to people that, you know, when hip-hop generation here is honky-tonk women, like we go crazy over it because there's a drum break in there. You know what I mean? And so I was trying to explain to somebody younger that, yes, this is a classic Rolling Stones song, but to the hip-hop generation, this is a hip-hop song because of that drum break at the beginning. And they were kind of head-scratching, but sometimes non-hip-hop songs can become hip-hop classics.

So for me, one of the groups that did the most creative level of sampling to me was De La Soul and they were the first to really go outside the lines like you know in the first 10 years or whatnot you would choose danceable funk records as your musical backdrop but what happens when you go outside of that and you start sampling things that aren't perceived as hip-hop or even black music creations, but yet and still, it can be reframed as hip-hop. So here's a great example. De La Soul's second album, De La Soul is Dead.

Their opening song is a song called Oodles of O's, which is like one of my favorite tracks of theirs. And the musical backdrop of it is a very non-hip-hop song there's a song called diamonds on my windshield by uh tom waits now isolated on its own if i were to play that in the club everybody will look at me like i'm crazy like are you playing this post-Jack Kerouac poetry thing? And yeah, it sounds weird. But now that hip-hop heads know that De La Soul used that sample, it's almost like you have a different relationship with it. are the songs that are created from musical sources that are absolutely the left of what hip-hop is known to be.

Okay, well, let's hear De La Soul. Yeah. Yeah. And once an embryo, am I solid gold? I don't cast a glow. Yes, I guess it's true, like some have no control. I'd rather let a laugh to it tally up my dough. Canoeing up the river or out into the hole. You just know me not, so not me to roll. Some are lovey-dovey, I hear things you know. Some shake your hand, but this is called show.

I was John Donar, Mr. Dollico. Piss with the witness of our idol. O's got the world, but O's was on tour. Girls gave the O's and guys owned for sure. Where they arose from, nobody knows. What do they mean? Well, here's how it goes. No shit's got the O's when you hold a dough. You know who you are, but they didn't know.

And now with respect, they flex like a pro. You're first another n***a, but now an afro. Oodles and oodles and O's and oodles and oodles and oodles of O's. There was DLSO sampling Tom Waits, a track chosen by my guest, Questlove, whose new book is called Hip Hop is History. So I want to play a song that I know you like a lot. And this is Mac Miller and his song 2009 from a 2018 album called Swimming. And can you talk about the importance of this song in the history of hip hop and in your music listening history? Well, first of all, you know, I chose this song because as a musician, I listen to inflection. I listen to delivery. I listen to a melodic approach. And of course, it's also like the words that you're saying are important as well. of hip-hop says, or at least older hip-hop says, that Rakim is God, because Rakim's delivery was

that of, like, John Coltrane's delivery and how John Coltrane changed jazz music. Rakim had the same pattern as John Coltrane, like, would do these rhythmic patterns never heard before. Mac Miller, what I really love the most about him is I love honesty. And you can't get honest unless you're vulnerable. And it's very tempting in this culture, in this art form, to put your shield on and to really not let people inside of your soul to see what you're really going through. Because, again, we're taught to just chase the hit and nothing else and mac miller kind of used his platform to talk about his life and what he's going through and i think that's why he resonated with so much of his generation before

he passed away uh before his unfortunate passing but um yeah man mac miller is even the work he left i mean i almost see mac miller almost in the same way as people see jeff buckley's work you know like an artist whose work even though they're not here anymore it still resonates with a particular audience and that's what mac miller that's how I feel his music. That's how it feels to me. I'm really glad you mentioned his inflection because it's really good. So one of the lines in the song is, It ain't 2009 no more, I know it's behind that door.

So talk about what happened, the significance of 2009. You know, I mean, he had a lot of struggles. Depression. Yeah, with depression. Addiction. Yes, and addiction. And he was very kind of forthcoming with his life struggles. And as you see how I divide these chapters up in this book, each chapter is divided by hip-hop is determined by the kind of drug of choice,

the way that we choose to self-medicate when we don't know how to deal with those dark emotions. And look, it's an everyday struggle for me depression like um yeah just every day i gotta wake up and i think i said it before like you know i gotta do my affirmations i gotta i gotta coach myself in the mirror every morning even before i spoke to you like every day for 15 minutes. I have to say my morning mantras and to set my 24 hours. This is how I'm going to get through these 24 hours and psych myself into seizing the moment to not self-sabotage myself and get through the day because I know the world is dependent on me to lead. And, you know, I'm going from a reluctant leader to slow leader. You know, I'm kind of comfortable with it now. But I want to be to the point where I just own it without question.

But, yeah, every day I wake up scared of my shadow and I have to get myself out of that. Do you feel like you have to get into the zone of being Questlove, you know what I mean, as opposed to being Amir? Well, I have to get in the zone to not lose Amir Thompson. Oh. Like to be Questlove is to be Superman.

To be Amir Thompson is to be Clark Kent. So let's get back to the next recording we're going to play, the Mac Miller. Yes. 2009. So just tell us again, like what 2009 means in the context of that song. He had broken up with the woman he was dating. It was the beginning of social media and that sort of thing. And he got in a car accident.

That was a near-death moment for him, in which he really had a reflective moment. He was DUI. Yeah. Driving under the influence of. Exactly. So to me, this would have been a confessional moment for him, a really confessional, vulnerable moment, which is rarely not seen in hip hop to this level. Yeah.

And the song, the way I hear it, if I'm hearing it correctly, is about giving up drugs. Yeah. Like a turnaround. And feeling more alive as a result. But, I mean, he died of an accidental overdose soon after the album was released. It's an everyday struggle. It's an everyday struggle. My version of falling off the wagon is nowhere close to, you know,

this level of falling off the wagon. But, you know, again, if I don't do my morning routine, everything's out of whack. And there's some moments where you just want to hide under the sheets and not face the world. And, you know, and I totally understand that where you turn a new leaf and then there's some moments where you don't feel like

putting the weight on your shoulders. And I understand that. And that's why I chose this song. Yeah. Well, let's hear it. All right. Nowadays all I do is shine, take a breath and ease my mind And she don't cry no more She tell me that I get her high cause I ain't just supposed to fly And I ain't ask her why no more

Oh no, I take it if it's mine, I don't stay inside the lines It ain't 2009 no more Yeah, I know what's behind that door Yeah, okay, you gotta jump in to swim. Well, the light was dim and it's light for sin. Now every day I wake up and breathe. I don't have it all, but that's all right with me. Take it nice and easy, took a flight to see me.

Send you back home with a light that's beaming. The whole team about to figure it out. We ice cold, that's beaming the whole team about to figure it out we ice cold that's what winter about and sometimes sometimes i wish i took a simpler route instead of having demons that's as big as my house have a ball with a dribble and bounce because the party ain't over till they kicking me out yeah isn't it funny we can make a lot of money buy a lot of things just to feel a That was Mac Miller, the track 2009 from his album Swimming. And, you know, you were talking about vulnerability and how a lot of like hip-hop records don't show vulnerability. I think a lot of hip-hop artists come from an environment where showing vulnerability means people are going to

try to take advantage of those vulnerabilities. Exactly. And so you can't show them. It's unsafe to show them. Emotions are seen as weakness. Emotions are seen as humanity, which really wasn't allowed for African-Americans for the first 400 years of our existence here. For a lot of us, this is the most I've ever heard. I would never tell anyone I was in therapy maybe before 20 I mean if I'm dating someone I'll tell her like yeah you know I've been there therapy for like 23 years and da da da da but I wouldn't if you were bringing that up in an interview or I'd I've been interviewing with you since what the 90s and yeah i i would never allow you know like my purpose for this is hey let's sell my book let's talk about this album let's talk about this song but um now that i have i lost

i lost the shield of not having fear um and really just explaining that that's what's going to save us. Because the thing is, is that what people, the kind of pandemic crisis that we're facing that no one's really acknowledging is our early exit, especially in hip-hop culture i mean right now as i speak to you i'm just finding out that uh brother marquise of the two live crew just passed away today so that's like my whole thing is like wow or who's will we have senior citizens in hip-hop who's going to be 65 and still with us like this is why like ice tea still being here with us amazing flavor flave chuck d like the fact that they're inching to 65 like is a miracle and you know who who of us is going to get to their 90s as quincy jones is doing right now you know? And oftentimes the not being allowed to express emotions. And again, it's generational since, since our days on the plantation, you weren't allowed to

express anger, sadness, happiness, joy, like any, any of those emotions. And now, like, most of humanity doesn't know how to deal with dark emotions. I would love to talk more, but I'm being told we have to give up the studio. But I want to end with some more music. And I know you love to shine a light on people who you think are underappreciated but are really terrific. Would you like to choose a track to end with? I would love to. In celebration of Lauryn Hill making Apple Music's number one album,

probably one of the last songs that she performed on that's really notable that shows you that she still has a lot of magic to give. There's a song called Nobody that's on Nas' King's Disease 2 album. It's with Nas and Miss Lauryn Hill. And to me, I get goosebumps listening to it simply because she's still magical. And I know that term gets thrown around a lot. But, yes, she's magical. And her voice is so needed right now in ways you can't imagine. Like the way that she inspired people. Like her success enabled my success to happen.

That's how magical the Lauryn Hill effect was. And so, yeah, Nobody by Nas and Miss Lauryn Hill is one of my favorites, one of those unsung favorites from his King Disease album. Questlove, it's so great to talk with you. Thank you. And I want to just thank you, too, for talking about vulnerability.

I think it's really important. That's going to be the theme for every project I do henceforth. You know, I'm just wrapping up my Sly and the Family Stone documentary right now, and that's going to play a major part in the narrative. I look forward to seeing it when it's done. Thank you again, and congratulations on your new book. Thank you. time I spend focused on my freedom now. Why would I join them when I know that I can beat them now? They put their words on me and they can eat them now. That's probably why they keep on telling me I'm needed now. They tried to box me out while taking what they want from me. I spent too many

years living too uncomfortably, making room for people who didn't like the labor, but wanted the spoils, greedy, selfish behavior. Now let me give it to you balanced and with clarity. I don't need to turn myself into a parody. I don't need to turn myself into a parody. I don't do what you do for popularity. They clearly didn't understand when I said I get out apparently. My awareness like Keanu in the Matrix. I'm saving souls and y'all complaining about my lateness. Now it's illegal for someone to walk in greatness. They want the same, they want the same, but they don't take risks. Now the world will get to see its own reflections and the anointed can pursue their own

direction. And if you're wrong and you're too proud to hear correction, walk into the hole you dug yourself a projection. See me in my freedom, taking all my land back. They said a lot against me thinking I just stand back. That's Nobody by Nas featuring Lauryn Hill.

The track Questlove chose to end our interview. Questlove spoke to end our interview. Questlove spoke with Terry Gross. His new book is called Hip Hop is History. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm Sam Brigger. Thank you.