Fresh Air - Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?

Episode Date: March 22, 2025

Seth Rogen created a new AppleTV+ series, The Studio, which is a satirical look at how executives in Hollywood make decisions on what movies get made. He stars as the head of a fictional Hollywood studio who is trying to save the struggling company. Also, New Yorker staff writer Andrew Marantz talks about how Right-wing podcasts and YouTube channels have become the platforms where men who feel disillusioned and alienated go to feel seen and heard—and the battle on the Left to win them back. Plus, rock critic Ken Tucker reviews new songs by Teddy Swims, Benjamin Booker, and Neil Young.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from David Tennant Does a Podcast With, back for season three. David Tennant returns to sit down with superstar guests like Russell T. Davies, Jamila Jamil, and Stanley Tucci. New season streaming now wherever you get your podcasts. From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tonya Mosley. Today my guest is Seth Rogen. He created a new Apple TV Plus series, The Studio, which is a satirical look at how executives in Hollywood make decisions on what movies get made.

Seth stars as the head of a fictional Hollywood studio who is trying to save the struggling company. And he says the job of a studio executive in real life is the funniest in all of Hollywood. Yeah, it's a very tragic job. I think tragedy is comedy in a lot of ways. Also, New Yorker staff writer Andrew Morantz joins us to discuss his latest investigation into how right-wing podcasts, streams, and YouTube channels have become the platforms where men who feel disillusioned and alienated go to feel seen and heard and the battle on the left to win them back. Plus, rock critic Ken Tucker reviews new songs by Teddy Swims, Benjamin Booker

and Neil Young. This message comes from Wise, the app for doing things in other currencies. Sending or spending money abroad, hidden fees may be taking a cut. With Wyze, you can convert between up to 40 currencies at the mid-market exchange rate. Visit Wyze.com. TNCs apply. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tonya Mosley. Let's go back to the year 2000. A young Seth Rogen and his writing partner, Evan Goldberg, have arrived from Canada, and they're meeting a studio executive to go over a screenplay they've written together.

During the meeting, the executive makes a cynical confession. "'I got into this job because I love movies,' he says, and now I feel like my job is to ruin them.'" Rogen and Goldberg never forgot what that executive said, and 25 years later, they've made it the basis of a new satirical comedy series on Apple TV Plus called The Studio. Rogan plays Matt Remick, a Hollywood executive who gets an unexpected promotion as the head of the fictional Continental Studios after his boss is fired. In this scene, the studio CEO, played by Bryan Cranston, offers Matt the job, but asks if he has what it takes

to do it the Continental way. Patty's time has come and gone, and I'm seriously considering you to replace her. Oh my god, yes, yes. I'm the guy, I'm the guy for the job! Why are you...tell me that, why are you the guy? Well, um... I've worked at Continental for 22 years. I bought the original spec script for MK Ultra which, as I'm sure you know, spawned a franchise

that's made us over 3 billion dollars for the... Hey, Renee! Where the f*** is my green juice? You want a green juice? Uh, yeah, I'd love one. Two green juices. Now! Yes, sir. Sorry. Continue. Film is my life.

Ever since I came to the studio as a kid and went on the tour, being the head of Continental is the only job I've ever wanted. That is adorable. All right, well, listen, I honestly just have one strong reservation about you. Oh. I've heard you are really into artsy, fartsy filmmaking bullsh-t. You're obsessed with actors and directors liking you, rather than being obsessed with making this studio as much money as possible.

Me? Yeah. That could not be further from the truth. I am as bottom line oriented as anyone in this town. I believe you. Great. Good. Good.

Because at Continental we don't make films, we make movies. Movies that people want to pay to see. Yes. From there, the audience is taken on a funny but also absurd and often cringeworthy adventure as Matt, always flustered and desperately needing to be liked, has to find ways to keep the studio afloat. Seth Rogen has produced, directed, written, and starred in many films, including

Superbad, Knocked Up, This Is the End, Sausage Party, and the limited series Pam and Tommy. He founded the production company Point Grey Pictures, along with his writing and directing partner Evan Goldberg. And the two have founded the cannabis products and home goods company Houseplant. And Seth Rogen, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thank you. What an intro. Well, I really want to go back to this time, 2000, you and Evan are in this executive's office. Yeah. And he says this thing to you, like, I now ruin movies. Like, what was your reaction? I was shocked by the honesty. Honestly, like, I really could tell that he was in a

position in that point in his career. And that person still works in Hollywood is one of the heads of one of the major studios in Hollywood. Um, so he, he stuck around and it was, it was an ancient Roman teen sex comedy. Oh, really? Okay, so this wasn't super bad or something. This was like... What's funny is we had written super bad and no one was making it and that's how we got the job for this movie. And honestly, we were like, let's just put all of our ideas from super bad into the movie basically. And so that's how desperate we were to make something. And so we sort of became like an ancient Roman version of Superbad, which as I say, it is insane.

But, um, and it was very dirty. It was very dirty. And what I recall, I think at the point in this process, yeah, we had handed in a draft that he really thought was funny and we thought was funny and was ridiculous and crazy. And he was telling us in this notes meeting that like it couldn't be so dirty and it was clearly the notes he had been given from on high and so in a very honest moment he said that and I don't know if the executives I've worked with over the years would agree but I've always had a sympathy for I think

because of that I've always felt like it really humanized the job in a lot of ways and made me understand you know from a pretty young age yeah that like a lot of a lot of these not all of them but a lot of ways and made me understand, you know, from a pretty young age, yeah, that like a lot of, a lot of these, not all of them, but a lot of them are people who love movies but who are constantly put in positions where they have to either, you know, maybe be fired or do something kind of risky. And I think more of them should do something risky and, and that will actually lead to better things. But you know, I understand why they don't. I don't agree with it necessarily, but I understand it. And it's a very comedic situation to be in. Right. I mean, that's the thing. You have a lot of sympathy for them because of this

very formative experience for you. But also, you say it's like the funniest job in all of Hollywood. Yeah, it's a very tragic job. I think tragedy is comedy in a lot of ways, you know? And a lot of them, yeah, like, because they love movies and they grow up, now I'm at the age even where like some of the people I work with grew up watching our movies and stuff like that, you know what I mean? And for the first time in my life, like I'm older than the execs I'm working with at some of these companies. And so they, I'm one of the people they probably grew up watching and they are constantly put in a position where they have to say things that make me really mad at them. And I would imagine that's a huge bummer. And I've seen it over and over.

I remember an exec like hiding from a movie star, like literally in his office because he was avoiding because the movie wasn't tracking well. And he was avoiding he didn't want to be the one to tell him. He knew he was mad. He knew the movie star was there for meeting and was mad. And he didn't want to get yelled at basically. And he's like, I remember him being like, I love that this guy's one of my favorite actors of all time. And he wants to scream at me. And like, that to us was, it was just funny. It just always struck us as very funny. Is it true that you interviewed almost every Hollywood executive for this?

Yeah, we interviewed a lot of them, whether they knew it or not. Some of them, it was just like us milking information from them without them. And some were very formal interviews where they came in. But a lot of the stuff from those interviews worked their way directly into episodes of the show. Yeah, okay. Let's get into the series because I think you said something like 85% of what is in it is actually true to some extent. For sure. And talking about interviewing these executives, if this stuff is true, oh my gosh, because it's like the cringiest scenarios ever. I think we're actually, and like, if anything, I think we paint like a pretty sympathetic picture

of the situation that, you know, I think to a lot of people's experiences is probably, you know, an optimistic view of what Hollywood is. Yeah. Okay. The characters are phenomenal. I mentioned Catherine O'Hara, who is, she was your boss. She was fired and you take over her job. Ike Barinholtz, who plays this powerful lower level executive, desperate for power. He is hilarious. Yeah, he's great. Catherine Hahn, who plays this aggressive marketing chief with lots

of opinions. Chase Sui Wonders who plays an ambitious young executive and she does a couple of shady things to like it over. As an ambitious young executive yeah we'll do. And then there's the host of actors and filmmakers with very very fragile egos and then how would you describe your character, Matt Remick? I would describe my character as someone who grew up loving movies and who worked very hard to be someone who got to make movies. And I think he's someone who wishes he was very creative

but is not and who kind of views himself as creative but simply isn't. And so his avenue to filmmaking, quote unquote, I guess, became being a studio executive. And he's very ambitious and very self-preservational and someone who will do the thing that allows him to keep going rather than to perhaps lose it all. And he's someone who's constantly put in a position to really disappoint both himself and the people that he idolizes and the medium that he idolizes. He's also walking around all the time terrified. Yes, he's very panicked and stressed out and wears it on his sleeve and does not.

And that's based on some specific people I know is that they wear their panic, like clearly, like they have a bad poker face, and that is very much something my character has. That's the great tension of the series. So it's set in present day, and all of these executives, like they're up against the real challenges of the moment. AI plays a big role, racial sensitivity. There's all these different things.

But your character, he wants to make art. He really does. Yeah. And it's really making fun of me in a lot of ways, you know, and, and, and I don't have like delusions of grandeur, I think my character in the show has, but I think it's inspired by the same belief that like one movie can change the entire course of Hollywood. And I don't think I'm going to be the person to make that movie necessarily. But did you want to at one time? Yeah, and for sure. And I think if you're an ambitious executive who's obsessed with

Robert Evans, then you could then you really think you could do that, you know? And so I think it's a silly goal to have, and my character has specifically that goal, I think. He wants to be viewed as like the savior of this town, you know? And that is not an ambition I specifically have, but it's something that I understand where that idea comes from. Okay, I want to play a clip. In this scene, Matt, your character, goes over to his old boss's house, played by Catherine O'Hara, a paddy, and to seek some guidance.

And the two talk about how he's handling being the new head of the studio. And O'Hara speaks first. So how do you feel in all this? You know, I've worked, obviously, a long time to get here. My you know, my parents are very thrilled very proud. I think Griffin is You know optimistic with with the plan Maddie not one of those words is about how you feel Yeah, I

Feel miserable. Honestly, I'm anxious stressed out Panicking pretty much all the time. I was so much happier two weeks ago when I was just angry and resentful that I didn't have this job. I would give anything to be angry and resentful compared to how I feel right now. You know, I walk past the tour guide every morning

and they say that the office was built as a temple to cinema, but it feels much more like a tomb. Heavy as the head, Maddie. Yeah, I'm honored, obviously, to be one of the people that gets to choose, you know, which movies get made and which ones don't. That's huge. And I got into all this because, you know, I love movies, but now I have this fear that...

my job is to ruin them. The job is a meat grinder. It makes you stressed and panicked and miserable. One week you're looking your idol in the eye and breaking his heart. And the next week you're writing a blank check for some, entitled Nipple Baby and a Beanie. But when it all comes together, and you make a good movie, it's good forever. That was Catherine O'Hara playing the role of Patty in the studio and also my guest today,

Seth Rogen. And that's the basis for this whole series. But you know, I wanted to, this particular scene was really powerful because we understand like his motivations. And then she as a wisdom, you know, person with wisdom gives kind of the larger context there. But it's also so beautiful. It's so interesting. Like you guys are standing on an overlook, overlooking LA. And the show in the character's wardrobe is all very much old Hollywood. It's just interesting the juxtaposition between the visual and then the current day struggles

that they're dealing with. Yeah, exactly. Like the characters, especially mine, like longs for days of yore. And that was sort of a big part of the idea, was to like also anchor the show in like a real feeling history for this studio and sort of like a real culture that this studio

and like an identity that this studio has kind of. And so yeah, we really used color palettes that were very 70s inspired. And you can tell that the characters kind of long for like there's a nostalgia for a time that isn't there anymore. They're not trying to be on the cutting edge of things. They're actually trying to kind of go back to how things used to be, you know? And yeah, we shot a lot of old homes from the 50s and 60s and 70s. That house is a John Lautner house. It's a very beautiful, beautiful house and, and in the show, it's as though we kind of have a storyline as though Frank Lloyd Wright designed the studio that we are in because he was in California making, you

know, my revival buildings like at the time that these studios were made and, and that it sort of has this like grandeur to it, you know, and this like kind of thing that you're trying to live up to. And, you know, I remember it's a name drop, but I was at 30 Rock Once with Lorne Michaels and I was saying what an amazing building it was. And he was like, in his way, like, well, you know, when any industry is new, they build cathedrals for it. And I always remember that.

And it was so true. And like, the studios feel that way. A lot of them, like they're these beautiful places and they were built at a time when they were kind of like unabashedly like lauding and trying to like bolster the importance of the industry, you know? And so that to us was something very important. And we got really lucky with that shot

because we shot the show where basically every scene is one take, which was very hard to do. But what it allowed us to do is a scene like that, for example, it's all one shot and we shot it maybe 15 times. And the first like 10 times it was like rainy and gray and cloudy. And we kept having to go inside because it was raining on us and just looked miserable. But we had a very specific shot we wanted to do. And so we literally just sat inside and waited for it to stop raining as the sun was going down. And then it's like this magical thing happened. We're like, right as the sun was going down, the rain stopped and rainbows appeared. Yeah, I'm like, is that a rainbow over there?

You couldn't see the whole city. And we were just like, let's go shoot now. And to me, it was like a real magical Hollywood moment kind of it feels like a love letter to Los Angeles, which feels especially just watching it for me a tinge of like sadness a bit just with all that has happened for sure. You know, definitely. And I think that it always was a love letter to Los Angeles. And I think if anything, it is like we like I love living in Los Angeles. And I think that it always was a love letter to Los Angeles. And I think if anything, it is like, like I love living in Los Angeles. And I've lived here for a very long time.

And I love the architecture. I love the landscape. Like I love that there's Franklin Wright buildings and John Lauder houses. And I think that's one of the things that Hollywood kind of has afforded me over the years is just like access to like these very beautiful spaces, you know, and so, and as we were pitching the show, has afforded me over the years is just like access to like these very beautiful spaces,

you know, and so, and as we were pitching the show, that was always something that we would say the pitch is like a lot of our experience in Hollywood is like being in very beautiful places having very stupid arguments with one another. And like that was something that we really was a funny juxtaposition as well is like, we would be at a movie premiere at the ACE theatre that was the United Artists Theatre that Charlie Chaplin opened in some back room that was like literally the dressing room that Charlie Chaplin would use before coming out the theatre and just like screaming at each other over like the dumbest like like a fart joke or something like that.

And to us that was always just very funny. My guest is Seth Rogen. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. So there's this particular episode, and there's a scene in the episode where your character is dating a doctor. And she takes him to, I think it's like a cancer fundraiser. And he, while medical cancer gala. Yeah, gala. And he, while talking to fellow doctors and researchers who are like looking for cures for cancer and stuff, he gets into an argument and he says to a group of them, something like, you all save lives. But we make life worth living.

You all save lives, but we make life worth living. You all say lies, but we make life worth living. That is like the most absurd, non-self-aware statement ever. But Seth, it also is kind of true. I mean, that episode's probably threading a needle more than any of them as far as, as far as rooting for my character or at least even understanding where my character is coming from in any way shape or form. That to me is actually I think like in many ways I personally find it to be the funniest episode because it's sort of based on it. It's kind of based on me because and I understand

obviously I understand it's comedic and ridiculous, but I have a charity with my wife, Hilarity for Charity, and it's an Alzheimer's charity. And so we find ourselves at a lot of medical gallops, and I find myself at a lot of tables with doctors who save lives. And what's funny is often they have like a blatant disrespect for the film industry. As maybe as they should, but I don't think so necessarily. And they... So there's no deference for you.

No, and they think it's funny. And I think they think it's funny. I think and they're obviously smart enough to know that I exist in a world where there is deference and they have and they're showing no deference and they seem to revel in being in a position where they they're they can like sort of maybe subtly at times diminish the career of another person who clearly views what they do as important even though maybe it is. How does that feel for you? Well it was both I mean I can I personally understand that it's not a thing I should be upset about, but I comedically understand the motive, the feeling that you wish you could fight back

against that and assert that what you do is as important. And I, it's not something I would ever do in real life, but it's something that I, it's obviously an instinct I had somewhere in my brain because that's where the idea for the episode came from, you know, but I know it's ridiculous and I know my character's wrong generally, but I think that the inspiration for that episode was definitely based on like feelings that I've had sitting at tables with doctors. There's also like this storyline about being scared about whether something is racist. And that's hilarious because like,

it just goes through all these different iterations. Is that a situation that you've had to deal with in real life? For sure. I'd say that episode has more actual conversations that we've had to sit in rooms and watch than most of the episodes. And what's funny about it is, it's like all people care about of the episodes. And what's funny about it is it's like all people care

about is the perception. They themselves have no ideological like thing that they are trying to get across and they don't care at all. They just don't want to look bad. And that is the thing that we would notice the most when these types of things came up was that like, Oh, no, none of these people care. They just don't want to look bad. Is there a story that comes to mind that happened in real life? It's not a thing we got made, but it was like we were making a comic book and there was like an alien character. The alien had been like traditionally voiced by someone of a certain race.

And so all of a sudden, like that became a big topic of conversation was like, what race is this alien? And, and, and we kept being like, well, it's an alien, but like, but it didn't matter because like, in people's heads, there was a certain like race ascribed to the alien due to the voice that people associated with the alien. And then we were like, well, is that racist? Like, and so that was something in the last few years where, again, I found just a lot of people having, at the end of the day, no one involved cared. No one could be like, you know what, I strongly believe that it should be this. It was just like, what maybe will people yell at us for? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's also the funny scene where to make sure, so in the case like the alien, like the voice, you go to like the one person of color in the place.

Oh, yes. Is this okay? Yes, that happens a lot. I've been there as well. I've had people call me and ask me Jewish things before. It's happened to me. I've been that person. Because so much of your material comes from a personal place, have you ever gotten a note

from an executive that felt like an insult? Oh yeah, many, many, many times. We've gotten notes that are just like, this scene isn't funny, which is insulting. You know, I think I actually understand notes about likeability because I think that's an easy note for an executive to give. Often there'll be a character based on me and they'll be like, this character's not likeable. Well, wasn't there that note from that executive or something about Jonah Hill's character super bad? Yeah, that was the thing. Yeah, that Sony, what was Sony, the corporate Sony, Sony made

the movie, you know, Sony owns Columbia Pictures. And so Sony made super bad. And there's a scene in super bad where it was supposed to be Michael Cera and Jonah's character Seth and Evan based on us playing PlayStation together and then we got a note from Sony corporate yeah that Jonah's character couldn't interact with a Sony product basically. It was even worse on Pineapple Express where they wouldn't even let us put a PlayStation in the movie all together and we had a scene where a kid was playing a video game and we had to like invent a console that didn't exist. Oh my god. Yeah, like Sony won that one.

It was like, we really want to be in this movie. But the thing about the super bad one, I mean, Jonah's character is based on you. It is based on me. And they were like, yes, this character is too reprehensible to be touching a PlayStation. And I was like, that hurts. Seth Rogen, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you, and thank you for the studio. Thank you. Seth Rogen's new satirical comedy series, The Studio,

premieres on Apple TV Plus on Wednesday, March 26. Rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening to new music releases, including new songs by Teddy Swims, nominated as Best New Artist at this year's Grammy Awards, and Benjamin Booker, who Tucker says is doing interesting things with volume and distortion. There's also an old pro in the mix here, Neil Young, who has a new band and a new song that Tucker says heralds some big changes. Here's his review. Feels like the walls are all closing in and the devil's knocking at my door. Whoa, out of my mind.

Teddy Swims had a big hit last year with the song, Lose Control, which showcased his gruff but supple ballad singing. The Georgia-born singer has clearly been influenced by Southern soul men like Al Green and Bobby Blue Bland. On his new album titled I've Tried Everything But Therapy Part 2, Swims offers a new set of love songs that demonstrate the depth of his romanticism. On Are You Even Real, he's so swept away, he wonders whether he's dreaming the object of his adoration. Where Teddy Swims offers up his vocals with glowing clarity, Benjamin Booker opts to reduce his singing to just another instrument in the mix of songs and styles found on his new album called Lower.

On his previous albums, Booker grappled with then-current events such as the Black Lives Matter protests. The lyrics on his new album are more obscure, hinting at deep emotions whose rawness is either matched by or buried beneath layers of distorted guitars and keyboards. There's a beauty in the kind of musical chaos Booker creates. Like you want me to Dream like this, me and you Alright, alright Now, now Love while we have a chance

Love without more of it Alright, alright If I can make it out tomorrow If I can start again A few years ago, Benjamin Booker opened for Neil Young on a few of Young's tour dates. Young himself is now showcasing a new band called the Chrome Hearts that includes Willie Nelson's son Micah on guitar and the great organist Spooner Oldham, who was part of the legendary Muscle Shoals rhythm section and co-writer of hits like the box tops Cry Like a Baby.

To judge from the band's booming first single, Big Change, however, Neil Young isn't seeking out pop or country sounds. He aims to have the Chrome Hearts sound at least as grungy as his usual backup, Crazy Horse, and the noise they make is powerful. Big change is coming. Coming right home to you Big changes coming, you know what you gotta do

Big changes coming, could be bad and it could be good Big changes coming, coming right home to where you stood Where are you, Spurge? Big change is comin' Big change is comin' Big drums are drummin' Headin' up the long parade Big change is comin' Comin' right to your gate Big guitars strummin' Big change is coming, young chants, over and over. Given the timing of the release and the image of Young waving an American flag in the video,

there's an inescapable feeling that he's talking about the recent presidential election, though it's impossible to tell whether he thinks the changes are welcome or ominous. Like Teddy Swims and Benjamin Booker, Neil Young is letting loose with some big emotions, but letting you judge how to interpret them. Ken Tucker reviewed new songs by Teddy Swims, Benjamin Booker, and Neil Young. Coming up, we'll talk with the New Yorker writer Andrew Marantz about his latest article, The Battle for the Bros, which is a look at why many young men in America have gone MAGA and the battle on the left to bring them back. I'm

Tanya Mosely, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. California Governor Gavin Newsom recently joined the Manosphere, the world of political podcasts, streams, and YouTube channels where young men have become the new MAGA Vanguard. This is Gavin Newsom. And this is Steve Bannon. And this is Michael Savage. And this is Charlie Kirk. The Democratic governor says the purpose of his new podcast is to have unfiltered conversations with people he doesn't always agree with. And so far he's had on far right media stars, many of whom were instrumental in Donald Trump

winning the election. Well, my guest today, the New Yorker staff writer, Andrew Marantz, looks at how Democrats are attempting to win back the support of young men in America, those they lost during the 2024 election. And for his piece, Marantz spent time with several high profile podcasters and streamers, like Hassan Piker, a leftist star on the live stream platform Twitch

with more than 3 million followers, who's known for modeling modern masculinity with progressive politics. Morance's article, The Battle for the Bros, Young Men Have Gone MAGA, Can the Left Win Them Back, appears in the current copy of The New Yorker. And Andrew Morance, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much Tanya, so good to be back. Democrats lost support with nearly every kind of voter, but the defection that alarm strategists the most was this significant jump in young men who voted for Trump or no candidate. And this comes at a time when men are in crisis.

As you write, relative to their forefathers and their women counterparts, men are more likely to fall behind in school, they're more likely to drop out of college, languish in the workforce, or die by overdose or suicide. How did the right not only tap into that grim reality, but also offer a space for male grievance? Yeah, so just to start from defining terms. So, Manosphere is, like a lot of internet terms, pretty ill-defined, and it keeps changing. So, often, originally, when people used the term, it was for really, really extreme, hateful stuff, right? So, it was for Andrew Tate, who is a proud misogynist, defines himself that way, has been accused of human trafficking, Really really really bad dude.

And so often when people talked about the Manosphere they would talk about that. But then it kind of migrated into people who are conservatives on gender roles or who don't even have like gender content that they often bring up but maybe are just into things that are commonly coded as dude stuff, you know, video games or hunting or, you know, lifting weights or whatever. So all of that is kind of, depending on who you're listening to, contained within that category. And there's no reason that The Right has a monopoly inherently on being down to earth or being relatable.

You know, it's been mentioned many times that people like Bernie Sanders have no problem going onto these shows and, in fact, have been criticized for going onto these shows. So it's a bit of a caricature, but it's definitely one that's stuck. And I think we can now see in the data is definitely one that hurt Kamala Harris

in the last election. Well, relatable is a word that just keeps coming up in your piece. And you write about several notable personalities, influencers, streamers, podcasters. One of them is comedian and podcaster Theo Vaughn, who I personally have known since he was on MTV's Real World Rules back in the 2000s.

So for most of his career though, he has been apolitical. Can you talk about the power in that built in trust through familiarity? Theo has been around for like 25 years. I mean, Donald Trump is a perfect example of this. He built a relationship with Americans as an entertaining figure for decades. Absolutely. And Joe Rogan has been around since he was telling people to eat worms on Fear Factor. And I think you nailed it with the word trust and authenticity. I mean, a lot of times, and I think this is true for everyone, but I think it's especially true of listeners who don't think of themselves as political

people, people who I think are sometimes pejoratively called low information voters, but people who just don't think it's their job to study up on the ins and outs of politics. Often what it comes down to is who do you trust? And so you hear a lot of conflicting, competing information. You hear one source telling you, Doge is just a scam and it's just a way for Elon Musk to enrich himself. And then you hear Joe Rogan or Elon Musk or Theo Vaughn saying,

I don't know, it seems cool to me, we're cutting waste from the government. And if you don't want to embark on the really difficult project of sifting through the conflicting evidence, you can just trust one source and not the other. So you mentioned Theo Vaughn. To my mind, he is a funny, really affable, kind of goofy guy. He presents himself as basically so curious that he almost seems to see it as his job

to go in with no prior information into any conversation. And you can hear him from one week to the next. I mean, he, within the span of a week last summer, interviewed Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. And with each of these interviews, his stance is to kind of just sit back and go, oh, well, that's interesting. I never heard of that before.

He kind of copied this format from Rogan where when something new comes up that they don't know about, they have a production assistant or an intern or someone kind of sitting in the studio and they'll go, oh, could you pull that up? Could you Google that? I mean, I was listening when someone in a Theo von interview mentioned FDR and the New Deal.

And Theo von went, oh, that's interesting. What is that again? Can we pull that up? And they Googled, you know, New Deal and started reading the Wikipedia article. So the vibe is very much not, you know, we've done our research, we've studied up, we've pre-fact-checked everything. It's really the opposite. It's like a...

They're the proxy for the audience. Yes, very much. It's a dorm room kind of sitting around at a diner kind of conversation. They are a proxy for the audience who may or may not know all the proper nouns. And so they'll just Google it for you in real time. And often that's why it takes two or three or four hours, because they're really not in a hurry. I want to play a clip from Theo Vonn's show.

It's when he had on social scientist Richard Reeves, who you also spoke with. Reeves is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and president of the American Institute for Boys and Men. And he talked to Vonn about how men are struggling to find purpose in today's world and how during the pandemic, there was lots of research being reported about how the isolation would impact women and girls,

but not necessarily men and boys. And here's Theo's response. I don't know if ever in my life there's been a lot of organizations where it's like, hey, men need help, you know? It's like everything is that women need help with this, children, you know, and it's certainly that makes sense. I always think back to like women and children first,

like when the Titanic was sinking or something, you know, when something like that, it's like women and children first, right? And that's probably what most men would want as well. But at a certain point you're like, hey, we exist. What are we doing here? That was podcasting comedian Theo Vaughn and social scientist Richard Reeves on Theo's podcast.

Andrew, you write about how at one point during this particular conversation, Theo said, I'm not speaking against any other group. I'm just saying you can't make white males feel like they don't exist. He's saying basically that mainstream media primarily focuses their attention on the plight of people of other identities, and no one is really telling the stories of the disaffected male.

Is that something that you heard during your reporting often? Definitely. There was a really interesting moment on Theo von that I spoke to Stavros Halkias about. He's another comedian who's actually a much more leftist comedian. A lot of these guys are professional comedians for, I think, interesting reasons. And when Stavros went on Theo's show, Theo started to say a lot of stuff that I think is frankly pretty offensive about, you know, why we need to close the border and, you know, stuff that sounded pretty xenophobic.

And because Stavros is his friend, he didn't say, how dare you, sir, and get up and leave and storm out. He kind of laughed along and yes-anded the joke in a way that kind of steered him away from the xenophobia parts and toward a kind of more common understanding to the point that by the end of that interview, Stavros was offering a kind of more common understanding, to the point that by the end of that interview, Stavros was offering a kind of very concise explanation of why he thought Trump and the Republicans were terrible, and delivering this to Theovon,

who had kind of just been at Trump's inauguration and almost seemed to be in his corner, and it wasn't contentious, it wasn't heated. It was real disagreement, but it was in a kind of amiable, bro-y way. So I don't know. I mean, if that's the Manosphere, then it's not as scary as all that. But it's not always possible to model that kind of agreement. It takes prior relationship often, it takes trust. So it's not like this is a kind of cure-all for, you know, all the cultural ills of America,

but I do think it's worth it for at least democratic politicians to take note. The kind of pearl-clutching aesthetic is just very, very off-putting to people. I mean, I heard that more times than I could count. You said you had a theory or you found it interesting that many of these guys are comedians. Why is that? Have they just found their lane within the podcasting space or? Well, I think there's something about

when your job is to talk for a living and to kind of push boundaries for a living, you, I think, kind of overindex for that. I mean, a lot of the comedian's craft is to look at something you've seen a thousand times. The line to get into the airplane or the room you know, room service at a hotel and find something quirky and new and maybe a little bit taboo

to say about it. And so it kind of makes sense that if you're on one of these long form podcasts, it's not going to sound like, okay, here's a very tidy, efficient summary of the negotiations yesterday over the budget shutdown. It's going to sound like, man, like what even is a budget? Like, why do we even give money to each other? Have you ever thought about that? You know, it's like sort of radically open.

And I think a lot of Democrats underestimated how powerfully affecting that is for people. I mean, in the piece, I kind of refer to this as parasocial media. This, it's not social media in the sense of an algorithmic feed. It's parasocial in the sense that, I mean, that word means basically a kind of imagined one-way friendship that the listener has with the host. So if you're listening to Theo Vaughn or Joe Rogan for tens or dozens or hundreds of hours

while you're at the gym or while you're folding laundry or whatever, you'd feel like you know them. I mean, I feel like I know them. And so then when they tell you something or they start a line of questioning, you have a certain amount of trust and a certain amount of generosity, like, oh, let's see where he's going with this. And that's a very, very, very powerful tool in culture and

in politics. And I think for a long time, there's been this assumption that, oh, politics is one thing and Spotify is another. And they're just not separate things at all. And I feel like it took way too long for political consultants to learn that about social media. I feel like they've now learned it about social media, but they're a little behind the ball on parasocial media.

I wanna follow the money just for a minute. Are a lot of wealthy donors funding these podcasters and influencers on the right? Yeah, there's definitely money going into the right-wing podcast sphere, some of it from political donors and some of it just, you know, Joe Rogan got a massive deal from Spotify just because he was very popular. And part of what, you know, when Hassan Piker says, you know, the Democrats can't podcast their way out of this, I think part of what he means is you can't just have a kind of AstroTurf solution where you throw a bunch of money at sort of randomly selected people

whose views you like and that'll do it, right? So to kind of play out that argument, the way that argument would go is, okay, let's say some left of center donor decided to give hundreds of millions of dollars to whichever TikTok star was kind of supporting the Democrats. Would that boost awareness of the Democrats? Probably. But what it wouldn't do is have the authentic feeling of an organic, trusted, authentic, weird voice, right? So you were saying before, people who've known parasocially,

someone like Theo Vaughn or Joe Rogan for years, they have a kind of trust in them. And a lot of what that trust comes from is not just putting in the parasocial hours, although that's important, but also, frankly, how weird and idiosyncratic these people's interests are. You can't grow Joe Rogan of the right in a lab because Joe Rogan wasn't the Joe Rogan of the right until a few months ago. In 2020, Joe Rogan was the Joe Rogan of the left. He supported Bernie Sanders for president. And then between 2020 and 2024, he was lost. But the point I'm making

with that is if you had decided to astroturf your way to Joe Rogan, you wouldn't have been looking in the right place because you wouldn't have been funding Joe Rogan. So a lot of where the trust and authenticity comes from is, you know, this is someone whose interests I actually just vibe with at a totally apolitical level and then when they start talking about politics maybe I'll take some advice from them. That's a very hard thing to kind of recreate from the top down. Have you been listening to these podcasters since Trump took office? And how are they approaching it? Yeah, I mean, Elon Musk was on Rogan a week or two ago

talking about all this stuff and it was after the Doge stuff had started, after they had made these massive cuts to USAID and Rogan asked him, what's going on with this man? People say that babies are dying and all this terrible stuff is happening. And Musk just said, no, that's not really true. And then they kind of moved on. Again, this is not a journalistic standard of pushback. This is not a, I'm coming in with the receipts and I'm going to make you answer. I think that could be really illuminating actually

if someone could get someone like Elon Musk to sit down for four hours unedited with receipts and say, here you said you cut a billion dollars but it was actually a million dollars. Your explanation please. But I just don't think that is what someone like Joe Rogan sees his job as. I think he sees it as a hang, that we're just hanging.

And it would be weird if you were hanging with your friend and you kept badgering them with receipts. So that's not what he's going to do. There's so much more to your article. We scratched the surface. But really, I just want to know from you. The title is The Battle for the Bros. Young men have gone MAGA.

Can the left win them back? What did you come to after all of your reporting? Is it possible for the left to win them back? I think it is. Luckily, I'm not a political strategist, so I have no idea how to do it. But one thing we haven't mentioned, which I think I should just explicitly say,

is what do we mean by the left is actually a very live question. to do it. But one thing we haven't mentioned, which I think I should just explicitly say, is what do we mean by the left is actually a very live question. So when people talk about the, you know, can there be a Joe Rogan of the left or can the left win back, you know, young people, are the left and the Democrats the same thing or are they actually at odds in many ways? A lot of what Hassan Piker does is criticize the Democrats from the left and often what he says is, I'm a leftist, not a liberal. So one thing that has to be sort of resolved or at least the tension has to be, I think, recognized is what do we mean when we say the left? And then I think to the second part of the question, can the center-left Democrat anti-Republican coalition

win young men back? I think yes. And I think it, you know, based on the conversations I've had with various people, you know, it's a combination of material factors and kind of cultural factors. So I think it's, you know, trying to deliver a coherent policy agenda that will actually benefit people and make their lives better and more meaningful.

And then also showing up in these spaces, both, you know, online and IRL, to tell them how you're going to do that. So easier said than done. And as I say, luckily, it's not my job to do it, but it's possible for sure. Andrew Morantz, as always, thank you so much. Thank you, Tanya. This was great. Andrew Morantz is a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is The Battle for the Bros.

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