Fresh Air - Best Of: Stories From A Hollywood Insider / Eugene Levy

Episode Date: March 30, 2024

If you've ever wondered how directors convince stars to appear in their films, or what they do when an actor committed to a lead role suddenly starts throwing up roadblocks, you can ask Ed Zwick. He's a writer, director and producer who's been making TV and movies for decades. His new memoir is Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions: My Fortysomething Years in Hollywood. Also, we'll hear from Eugene Levy. He's appeared in dozens of films, including four satirical movies by Christopher Guest, which he co-wrote. He also starred in the hit comedy series Schitt's Creek. Levy currently stars in The Reluctant Traveler, a series in which he visits distant lands and tastes exotic foods that aren't exactly in his comfort zone.David Bianculli will review the new documentary about Paul Simon.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Dave Davies. If you've ever wondered how directors convince stars to appear in their films, or what they do when an actor committed to a lead role suddenly starts throwing up roadblocks, you can ask our guest Ed Zwick. He's a writer, director, and producer who's been making TV and movies for decades. His new memoir is Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions. Also, we hear from Eugene Levy. He's appeared in dozens of films, including four satirical movies by Christopher Guest, which he co-wrote.

He also starred in the hit comedy series Schitt's Creek. That's S-C-H-I-T-T-S, Creek. Levy currently stars in The Reluctant Traveler, a series in which he visits distant lands and tastes exotic foods that aren't exactly in his comfort zone. And David Bianculli will review the new documentary about Paul Simon. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Dave Davies. My first guest today, Ed Zwick, would probably be the best dinner guest you ever had, if you could get him.

He's been making television and movies in Hollywood for decades, and he has countless stories about how movies get made. From getting studio backing, to casting, scouting locations, staying on schedule, keeping the studio happy, and especially dealing with actors, including some of the biggest stars in the business. Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts, Denzel Washington, Anne Hathaway, Tom Cruise, and Leonardo DiCaprio, to name a few. And since we can't all have him to dinner, Zwick has compiled some of his best stories in a book. There are stories of actors showing their brilliance and dedication and sometimes being extraordinarily difficult to deal with. Zwick is a writer, director, and producer who's made dozens of films, including About Last Night, Glory, Shakespeare in Love, The Last Samurai, and Blood Diamond, and TV series, including 30-Something

and My So-Called Life. His book also shares plenty of tips he's learned and insights into moviemaking, like why crying scenes pose such a challenge to shoot, and why actors, directors, and crew all dread sex scenes. His book is Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions, My 40-something Years in Hollywood. Ed Zwick, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thanks for having me. I thought we'd begin with a reading. And this is when you have been working with Brad Pitt on the film Legends of the Fall. You want to just set this up for us and read?

Yeah. Well, I mean, look, making movies is something that takes place between very passionate people in very intense circumstances. You're away from home, a lot rides on it. And among people like that, things often get very intense. And we had a times contentious and at times very passionate relationship, but it was always for the good. Nonetheless, it sometimes got a little bit out of hand. And this, I think, describes a moment after such a thing has taken place. Were chairs actually thrown here? Oh, I think they did. And I'm afraid I might have been the first to throw it, but I hasten to say they were not at each other. They were thrown away from each other.

All right. So read from the book. After each blow up, we'd make up and mean it. It was never personal. Brad is a forthright, straightforward person, fun to be with and capable of joy. He was never anything less than fully committed to doing his best. I, on the other hand, am a movie director masquerading as a rational human being. I present myself as a mensch, a thoughtful, collegial guy who wants everybody's opinion, while in fact I am Ahab in a baseball cap. I want it done exactly as I asked, and I want it now. Now meaning before we lose the light, or the storm hits, or another plane passes over, or the studio shuts us down for getting into overtime, because I'm only going to get to shoot this movie once. Because

this shot will likely be in the movie, and I'm going to have to look at it a thousand times in the cutting room, and in the previews, and in the premiere, and live with it for the rest of my life. Because in the insanity of this moment, it feels like my entire career depends on it, that I will have another flop and might never work again unless I get this take right. And that's our guest Ed Zwick reading from his new book, Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions, My 40-Something Years in Hollywood. It really captures the pressure that you feel, and of course the actor feels it. And so much of this book is about you dealing with actors and trying to get the performance that you want. Has your approach changed over the career?

Is it more direction, less direction, indirection? It has changed radically. I think that in the beginning of my career, I was so anxious and therefore trying to over-determine things. And I think the legacy of that was sometimes to only get back what I was putting in rather than allowing these really gifted people to express what they had inside that surprised me. That, in fact, I could never have anticipated and that only made me better. But that came with some experience and some hard times. You grew up in Chicago, went to Harvard, and you were always a theater kid, writing, directing plays since you were 12, you say. And then in Europe after college, you scored a job as a production assistant in Paris for Woody Allen of all people.

He was shooting Love and Death. Tell us a little about that experience and its impact on you. Well, you know, these things happen in ways that you don't expect. And I was lucky enough to be one of the few people there who actually spoke English. I was hired because I spoke some French, but I was given this privileged view of an artist who in fact was a writer and he was able to surround himself with extraordinary people to help interpret that vision. And I'd always been intimidated by the idea of filmmaking because I hadn't been that kid who could thread a bolex and carried that around with me, the Hi8 camera, when I was too busy working in the theater. And yet the penny

dropped when I realized that there was somebody who was a storyteller and was undaunted, in fact, willing to allow that collaboration, which you realize, of course, is the most essential part of moviemaking, to actually tell that story. And he was so generous. I think of the ridiculous, the temerity and the presumptuousness of a 21 kid asking these questions. And he suffered them and was exceedingly gracious in answering my stupid questions. You know, I think that the story of Shakespeare in Love is maybe the quintessential Hollywood story about how things can happen and then get undone. You helped develop the script about seeing Shakespeare as this young guy kind of in a world of his own,

trying to – with writer's block trying to make this story and becomes involved in a woman who becomes Juliet. And then you managed to get Tom Stoppard, the terrific playwright, to rework it and it was great. And then the studio had gotten Julia Roberts who was just the hottest property around then. How did it go dealing with her? ship toward the top. And I think when things happen that quickly, I think there's a certain reality principle that gets distorted. And as we were getting closer to cast the movie, Julia decided that that lead should be played by Daniel Day-Lewis. We arrived in England and Julia sent Daniel Day-Lewis a dozen roses saying, be my Romeo.

And despite whatever I tried to do to tell her that that was not going to be possible because I had met Dan and he was already committed to his friend Jim Sheridan to make a movie. Jim Sheridan was the director of My Left Foot and they were best friends. She was convinced that she could make him change his mind. She couldn't. Right. And we should know that this is – at this point, work was underway on a set. Six million dollars had been spent to recreate the streets of 16th century London and the

Globe Theater and you had a bunch of terrific English actors lined up to read with her as a, you know, trying to find the co-star of the movie. I mean, Ralph Fiennes and Hugh Grant and a whole bunch of them. She was at a hotel. She said what? Well, I mean, look, it's was unable to see the quality of these other actors because they, in fact, were not Daniel Day-Lewis. And I could belabor the story except to finally say that she behaved badly and just left. And that was unforgivable and yet unenforceable because the studio was unwilling to hold her feet to the flame. And the movie went down in flames. Right.

And the project kind of lay involves Harvey Weinstein, who had gotten, if I have this right, gotten the rights for Miramax to continue the film. Well, I mean, it's even worse because I had made a movie called Legends of the Fall that Harvey had seen and told me that he wanted to make anything I wanted to make. And I showed him the script to Shakespeare in Love after having had turned down by everyone in town for four years. And he said, yes, I'll do it. And then he tried to buy those rights from Universal, who refused to sell them to him. And then two years passed after that, only for me to hear that Harvey had managed to buy those rights now, or rather trade the rights to King Kong for these rights, and that he wanted to exclude me from the project. Right. And you had a – you were the contractual producer, right?

So you had a well-known and formidable Hollywood lawyer write him a letter saying, sorry, there are legal obligations here. And he responded how? He called me often in the middle of the night threatening to kill my children. Literally. Literally. I mean, just in, but of course he was a creature of hyperbole

and he would, you'll never work again, kid, and I'll make sure that I'll destroy you and all of that. And I somehow make sure that I'll destroy you and all of that. And I somehow had a different idea of how you deal with bullies. And that was to hire a man named Burt Fields and take him to court. And then there's this fascinating meeting where he meets you and it's okay again. Well, I mean, you know, his quality of manipulation was rivaled only by his aggression.

And he cried crocodile tears. It was the most pathetic performance of contrition you'd ever seen. But what could we all do but believe him, except that that anticipated yet another betrayal down the road. You didn't get to direct the film. It was John Madden. But you did get a producer's credit, are you right? And an Oscar, because it was Best Picture of the Year. He finally did everything he could to minimize your role even then, didn't he? Yeah. It's funny. I mean, obviously, you can look back on that with great chagrin. On the other hand, it was very important for me to understand that this did not end my life, that I was able to get up the next morning and work on whatever came next, and I did. And what I came to understand is that these things in this business happen, that it's not about if you're going to get knocked down, but when, and what do you do

when that happens? And do you dig deep and discover the you know, the resources, the inner resources that you have to then go on. And that's, you know, the flops in the title of the book. It was, there was something that I had read that Preston Sturgis had once said, that hit is the thing you do between flops. And that suggests, and that suggests that... More misses than hits. Yep. And think of it in terms of baseball, right? If you hit one out of three, you're going to be in the Hall of Fame,

but that means that you grounded out, struck out, flied out, sacrificed two out of three times. And I think that that kind of understanding, that it's not a sprint, that it's a distance event, became very, very helpful to me down the road. We are speaking with Ed Zwick. He's a veteran writer, director, and producer. His new memoir is Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions,

My 40-Something Years in Hollywood. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. You know, a lot of directors began as actors. I'm Dave Davies and this is Fresh Air Weekend. It seemed like a pretty straightforward thing. You're on a couch. You ask a couple questions. You listen. What was the experience like? It was horrendous. I mean, it just put the lie to every assumption that I had ever made about understanding what it takes to do real work as an actor. And I was lost. I was incapable of remembering the lines

that I myself had written. I was unable to stand and go to a door and turn a handle and open it in the correct way so as the light would come in. Anything technical was far beyond my ability and I was covered in flop sweat within seconds. It was literally Richard Nixon at the debates. And I was undone by it.

And Evan was lovely and right there with me. And I had Marshall come down to the set and sort of talked me through it when indeed I didn't understand a word he was saying to me because I was in such terror. And it was really helpful to come to understand the vulnerability and the fragility of being an actor in that moment of production with the cyclops eye of the camera only feet away and 50 people staring at you. And you're intended to, in fact, be internally experiencing an emotion or a moment.

And I was only trying to get lines out. And I then reflect back on something like Denzel and the moment of the whipping. Or you look at Leonardo DiCaprio at the end of Blood Diamond, and you see what these actors are able to do. And it's this remarkable duality, because it's experiencing something real in the midst of an utterly technical circumstance. And it's a kind of magic. You worked with Leonardo DiCaprio in Blood Diamond. And you write in the book about how terrific he was at being prepared and learning Rhodesian dialect, which was really, really difficult and being committed to the process. When it was done, you say Alan Horn, our Warner

Brothers executive, said that he was really proud of the film because it dealt with this really important issue of the exploitation of Africa for its natural resources and how that has led to such trauma and bloodshed and carnage there. And this executive said he was proud of it, but he said, it's the last of its kind we'll ever make. What did he mean? Well, I mean, these film companies have been taken over by and large by multinational corporations who place on them the need to make profit and loss projections every quarter. And they have to contrive ways to do that. And the purpose of that is to be able to

move the needle on the stock price. So what does that mean? Superhero films? It means that you have to come up with films that appeal broadly. Well, inevitably, it's going to have to be a very popularized, a very homogenized and easily digestible and simpler, less complex fare. It's not going to be a movie about child soldiers and the exploitation of Africa, because that obliges you to have a more sophisticated, a more grown-up audience. And a grown-up audience is the least predictable, the most demanding, and the hardest to get for movies. And so therefore, that's not what you're going to make at that scale. You'll make smaller movies that might try to get that audience, but something that has a canvas, something that has a set of ideas that are challenging, that's not going to be the work of film studios then. There's just all kinds of consolidation going on in the industry and in the streaming world.

I'm wondering how you see your future, you know, as a producer or director. Well, apparently now I'm an author. So maybe that'll add to the mix. But no, obviously I still have that fire in my belly about doing work. And we are working on several things even as we speak. I mean, I do look at the business and understanding that the role of movies in the culture is different. When I was growing up, movies were ephemeral. You only thought you could see them once, and they dug so deeply into you.

You talked about them all night night and they stayed with you. You never thought you'd ever be able to see them again. And now that they can be stopped and paused to check your cell phone and you can see them at home again and again, they've taken on a different intensity. And I can feel that. And I can feel that, and I can feel that in some of the choices

that I'm trying to make and how difficult it is even more to make that happen. On the other hand, I'm not about to try to concede that space, that experience of what I think movies can be in the life as they've been in mine.

So how does it affect what you do? Do you have more cliffhangers? Keep them engaged? Yeah, well, I mean, look, there are show has to lead toward a cliffhanger every week so as to make you want to gorge and stand by for the next look. That happened in The Perils of Pauline and the serials of the 1920s. But I think that that is a commercial decision rather than an artistic decision. I think it limits at times what the effects of storytelling can be. Because instead of having some of the classical unities of conclusion and catharsis and denouement,

instead you have this thing that makes you anxious at the end. And that is a different effect and a different ambition than something that I've often had and I've accomplished in some of my movies, which is a very emotional engagement and a very personal kind of catharsis where that's what you walk away with. It has moved you. It has taken you someplace you've never been before. And it's reached a place that you never thought you might reach inside. And I think some of that is diminished. It's not only diminished at times by being at home where there are distractions as opposed to being in an audience, but it's also diminished by its very nature, by its structure. Ed Zwick, thank you so much for speaking with us. It's been my pleasure. Ed Zwick is a veteran writer, director, and producer. His new memoir is Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions, My 40-Something Years in Hollywood. The new two-part documentary In Restless Dreams, The Music of Paul Simon, is now streaming on MGM+. It's directed by Alex Gibney, whose credits include Going Clear, Scientology, and The Prison of Belief. This new film looks back at Paul Simon's lengthy career,

while also capturing his process as he recorded his latest album. David Bianculli has a review. Paul Simon already has been given the career-spanning biographical documentary treatment, and it was a great one, Susan Lacey's Paul Simon Born at the Right Time for the PBS series American Masters. But that was more than 30 years ago. And even though Gibney covers much of the same territory, he does it from a different perspective, with lots of formerly unseen footage, and with a slightly different mission. In his film, Gibney wants to tell the story from the inside out, revealing how Paul Simon feels about everything from Simon and Garfunkel to the controversy sparked by his Graceland solo album.

And Gibney also wants to know, as much as possible, what it feels like for Simon to perform his songs and to compose and record them. So at the same time Gibney is retracing Simon's past, he's also capturing his present. Filming and listening as Simon works on his 2023 album Seven Psalms. At the outset, Simon reveals to Gibney the original inspiration for the new project. On January 15, 2019, I had a dream that said, you're working on a piece called Seven Psalms. And I hadn't been writing anything for a couple of years, nor did I feel like writing anything for a couple of years.

The dream was so strong that I got up and I wrote it down. Seven Psalms, January 15, 2019. But I had no idea what that meant. In these parts of the film, Gibney shows how Simon works to record the sounds he hears in his head, while, at the same time, struggling to hear it all, because of a sudden, serious auditory loss in one ear. It's quite a contrast when juxtaposed, as Gibney does, with the easy start of Simon's

musical career. He and his childhood friend Art Garfunkel recorded, under the name of Tom and Jerry, a song that got radio airplay and eventually got them on the TV show American Bandstand as teenagers. At that time, I worked in a shoe store. But after we went on American Bandstand, I came in and the boss, who I couldn't stand, said, You're late. I said, No, no, I quit. When the duo signed to Columbia Records under their real names, Simon & Garfunkel, their first album stiffed. Until their engineer at the time, Tom Wilson, added drums and electric guitar to their acoustic version of Sounds of Silence, re-released it as a single, and turned it into a number one hit. And it was another engineer, Roy Halle,

whom Simon credits with coming up with the group's distinctive vocal sound by multitracking, which Gibney uses surviving audio tracks to demonstrate. Cecilia, you're breaking my heart. The vocal sound of Simon and Garfunkel. Roy invented that, you know. Oh, Cecilia, I'm down on my knees. We both sing into one microphone, close enough to each other that we could really blend. Second note. Play me a little of it back and I'll take the tempo again.

He'd capture that blend a couple of times. You're shaking my confidence daily. Whoa, Cecilia. To have multiple tracks that he'd combine in the mix. I'm begging you please to come home. Oh, Celia, you're breaking my heart. You're shaking my confidence daily. As soon as you heard that, it was like, there it is. Perhaps not surprisingly, given the history and acrimony of Simon and Garfunkel,

Art Garfunkel is not interviewed specifically for In Restless Dreams. But Saturday Night Live producer Lorne Michaels is, and so is Simon's current wife, singer Edie Brickell. And Wynton Marsalis, whose friendship with Simon he explains in a litany that sounds like rapid-fire rhythmic poetry. And what's so wonderful about that is Marsalis only says it because Gibney asks him a two-word follow-up question. Two words, but they strike gold.

We have so much to talk about. Like what? Man, like being divorced, having children, not being married, race relations in the United States, New Orleans and New York, Elvis Presley and rock and roll, white and black folks, politics, ayahuasca, South American music, integrating with other cultures in their music, being left-handed, being at your father's rehearsal that you don't want to be at, how to pay respect to a generation before you, the direction our country is gonna go in, What level of participation should artists have

with political issues? What is it like to travel? What do you learn from musicians and other cultures? What does it take to write a song? What do you think about Baroque music? What is Bach's position versus Beethoven's position in European music? How much music Duke Ellington wrote in 1962?

What was it like when Goodman got killed in Mississippi? Afro-American music and Anglo-Celtic music, where do they meet? It goes on and on, man. And not all agreement. That's what makes it so good. Through these new interviews, and vintage ones from the Dick Cavett Show and elsewhere, In Restless Dreams reveals Simon's opinions about standing on stage while Art got all the applause for performing Simon's composition of Bridge Over Troubled Water,

and about their various reunion concerts. The second part of the documentary covers Simon's solo years, the highlights of which are the recording sessions and concerts revolving around the albums Graceland and The Rhythm of the Saints. The only things I wish he could have found room for were Simon's astounding performance with Lady Smith Black Mambazo on Saturday Night Live, and more of the Paul Simon special from the 70s, with Charles Grodin irritatingly pushing for Simon and Garfunkel to reunite. But what is in Gibney's documentary is absolutely beautiful and unexpectedly thought-provoking. David Bianculli is professor of television studies at Rowan University.

He reviewed In Restless Dreams, the music of Paul Simon, now streaming on MGM+. Coming up, Eugene Levy talks about getting out of his comfort zone for his series The Reluctant Traveler. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. My next guest, Eugene Levy, has appeared in more than 60 films and a host of television shows. He's known for his deadpan humor, thick eyebrows, and countless characters he's developed over the years, many doing sketch comedy and improv for SCTV. Levy and both his children starred in the hit comedy series Schitt's Creek, that's S-C-H-I-T-T-S Creek, it's a name, about a wealthy family who lose their fortune and have to live in a rundown motel in a small town. Levy appeared in

and co-wrote the Christopher Guest satirical film's best-in-show, Waiting for Guffman, A Mighty Wind, and For Your Consideration. His latest project is a travel show on Apple TV Plus titled The Reluctant Traveler. Like other travel shows, it has beautiful shots of exotic places, delicious food, and exhilarating experiences. But it's a little different from programs hosted by seasoned travelers who always relish their adventures. Here's some of the introduction to Levy's shows from season one. I don't look forward to traveling for a number of reasons. When it's too cold, I'm not comfortable. Ice swimming naked. Yes. Well, that's a terrific invitation. Whoa. When it's too warm, guess what?

I'm not comfortable. I can't move that fast. But I'm 75. You need some help? No, I got it. And maybe it's time to expand my horizons. Expanding his horizons. The second season of The Reluctant Traveler premiered last Friday, March 8th, on Apple TV+. Eugene Levy, welcome back to Fresh Air.

Fun to be here. How are you, Dave? Good, good. Thank you. You know, as I understand it, when you were first approached about doing this travel show, you said, I'm really not your guy, but they still wanted to talk. Is this right? What happened? Yeah, well, they approached me about a travel show. It wasn't this travel show. It was a travel show about luxury hotels around the world, and it was called Room with a View, and they were coming to me to host it, and I couldn't understand why, because I'd never really done anything like this before. I'd never really

performed on cameras myself, and I wasn't really crazy about traveling. So I said, I think they have the wrong person. And, you know, then one phone call led to another. They wanted to keep talking. And then I explained to them exactly why I was not the person for the show and everything I was saying, they've kind of found very funny. And then they called back again saying, you know what? We figured out what this show is. It's about a guy traveling who doesn't love to travel. That should be the show. And I said, well, that kind of makes sense to me. You know, I can see myself being myself on camera for this. You know, I mean, the show, it has all these beauty shots of these

amazing places you visit, but the narrative, I guess you could call it, kind of rests on you working without a script and reacting to people and the experience. It's kind of like an endless improv. And it's pretty funny. I mean, was it exhausting to do that? Well, it was initially, it was kind of taxing for me because I'd never done anything like that before. I'd never been on camera as myself. And, you know, I'm not a, I don't have a gregarious personality. So I don't really initiate a lot of conversation with people in my real life. So I was a little nervous about these encounters with people, and I kind of, you know, really kind of grew into it a lot quicker than I thought I would. Were there any things they asked you to do that you just took a pass on or any food that you got that you either didn't eat or regretted when you did? Well, I've got a thing with heights, of course. And when we were in Utah last year, I had my first helicopter ride. I did it. I was really nervous about it because, you know, it was a height thing. It was a motion sickness thing. I wasn't quite sure what that experience was going to be, but I did it.

I did say no to a hot air balloon ride because, you know, with my fear of heights, which is quite legitimate, the idea of standing in a basket a thousand feet above the ground was, there was no way around that. I mean, if I'm on a suspension bridge, which I've done reluctantly, but I did it, you know, and I could set my sight, I could set my vision on a target kind of like dead ahead where I'm not necessarily looking down and I'm not looking over. I'm just looking straight ahead or I'm looking at my feet. Whatever it was, I could actually get by and do it. But standing in a basket, I knew that was not going to be for me. So I said no to that. Food-wise, again, my taste is pretty basic when it comes down to it.

Basic kind of meat and potatoes. I'm not Michelin. If you're telling me we're going to a Michelin restaurant, you know what I mean? The only foam I want to see is on the ocean. I don't necessarily want to see it on my food. Just give me a plate of good food and make sure it's cooked. So I don't have an adventurous palate. I tasted haggis in Scotland this past year, that is really a nasty dish. Haggis. I went to Scotland once and noticed that none of the natives were ordering it. Well, I don't really, I mean, there are people who actually love it. I'm sitting not too far

from me right now, but I think that when you're using parts of an animal that you really would never, ever want to see in a dish, it's not a good sign right off the top. I tasted it. I really didn't like it. I wanted to talk about Schitt's Creek, the series that you did that people have seen on Netflix. And again, Schitt is actually a name of a family in this case. It's S-C-H-I-T-T. It's awkward to say, but that is the name. Yeah.

So legitimate name. Right. You know, most of us know it as a series on Netflix. It was originally done for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I mean you are a native Canadian yourself. Yeah. It was originally done for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I mean, you are a native Canadian yourself. It's filmed up there. You want to just explain the premise of the show? Well as a joke because the name of the town was Schitt's Creek. So they end up living in a motel because it just doesn't cost them any money. That's really what the premise of the show was. Rich's two rag stories and and I'll play I want

to play a clip here from very early in the series I mean you're Johnny Rose you had this it was a chain of video stores I guess and then you're you were you were defrauded by your financial manager with you is your wife Moira who is played by Catherine O'Hara, who you've known for decades and done many roles with. Your son, Dan, plays your son in the series, David. And your daughter is played by Annie Murphy, who is just terrific in this. And what you see is that all four of you have lived very pampered and self-absorbed lives. So self-absorbed, in fact, that you as parents haven't paid that much attention to the kids who've had plenty to play with being so rich. This comes up in the scene we're going to hear where you've all moved

into this rundown motel. Your circumstances are drastically changed and you call a family meeting. Let's listen. Your mother and I have been talking and we've come to the realization that we've not been very good parents. Sadly, and most of the time, we have no interest in what's going on with you. We have no idea what's, because she means no idea.

We have lost touch as a family. And if we're going to get through this ordeal together, we have got to get reacquainted. Now, back at Rose Video, we had management retreats where we would play fun team-building exercise. We also had company-wide spa days. Why don't we try that? And one of the icebreakers at these retreats

was a game that was always a hit. And it was a game where somebody would tell a lie about themselves and then a truth and then another lie and everybody would have to guess which one was the lie. No, Johnny, they had to guess

which one was the truth. Which one was the lie? It's just one lie. What did I say? You said two lies. Well, it is two lies. No, the game is two truths and a lie. It's true.

So you've heard of it. Yeah, because babies play that at their birthday parties. Okay, whatever. It's a good game. Okay? Now, here's how it goes. I'll give you an example. Why don't I start?

I'm miserable, drunk, and hate this game. So here's a hint. Sadly, I'm not drunk. Okay. Wrong attitude. And that is our guest Eugene Levy and Catherine O'Hara and Dan Levy. I haven't heard that one in a long time. The writing is really crisp.

You and your son Dan did a lot of it. As I understand, he originally came to you with the idea for this. Was it the series then that we came to know or was it something different? The idea he came to me was a wealthy family loses its money, and what's it like to be a fly on the wall? So, you know, it was based on, you know, at the time there were the, you know, shows like the Kardashians or the Osbournes, and we were seeing incredible wealth on camera. And we were right inside the house dealing with the family. But what if the families we're dealing with lost it all? What would it be like to still be a fly on the wall with these families? And that really was the premise that we started with. And we worked on developing the show. Yeah. I just want to tell the audience, if you've heard of the show but

haven't gotten around to it or maybe tried it and didn't quite catch on, stay with it. It is just hilarious, in part because there's just such a terrific supporting cast. Did your son Dan have experience in writing a show like this? I know he'd worked for MTV in Canada for a long time. He worked for MTV in Canada, and he was a host for about seven years and started to get involved writing kind of sketches as the years went on. And his stuff was actually kind of quite funny. didn't know at that time whether he had, whether he was able to, in his writing ability, even though we were coming up with a show together, to come up with a show, a weekly show, where a character-driven show, where you really want the audience to have an emotional involvement with your characters, that's a kind of writing that is really tough.

And I mean, it's really tough. And he, right out of the gate, showed an amazing talent for it. And once I saw him kind of just going at it, I knew I could, you know, kind of step back and just say, okay, boy, he doesn't need any mentoring on this. I think he's, you know, he's way ahead of the old man on this. I read that you thought that your character in this, Johnny Rose, was closer to you, Eugene Levy, than other characters you played. Is that true? Yeah.

You know, I've spent my life as a character actor and I, you know, I would give me something to put on, give me some glasses, give me a mustache, give me a beard, give me a hat. You know, it really helped. If I could totally be somebody else and feel like somebody else, I could do the job. The closer a character came to who I was, I just didn't think there was anything that interesting there. So, you know, I kind of shied away from it. So I knew that Johnny Rose had to be, this is not a sketch character, it had to be a three-dimensional character like everybody else in the show and there was more of me in that character but nevertheless, it was a character. You know, in the series, the four of you, the parents and the two adult children, live in pretty close quarters.

I mean you and Moira are in one room and then the kids are in an adjoining hotel room, both of them with their own single bed. And you did – was it six seasons? Six seasons. Six seasons. I'm old enough to have kids in their 30s. And I have to say it is just so nice to have an adult relationship with people that you share this family history with but who are now adults that I actually like. And I really enjoy getting together with them. I was just thinking it must have been a really gratifying experience for you to work with

your son, Dan, and your daughter, Sarah, who plays the waitress, Twyla. Yeah. Well, it's pretty amazing that both Daniel and Sarah kind of ended up in this business. The experience on the show was totally surreal for me because I don't think I ever got over the fact when I was in a scene with them or watching them work with somebody else, Catherine or, or, you know, uh, Chris Elliott, uh, how, how good they were in the show and how proud I was, um, you know, watching them. And I would be on camera in a scene with them. And in my mind, I'm thinking, wow, I can't believe I'm actually working with my kids on camera. This is what's going through my head as I'm in the middle of a scene. So it was an unbelievable experience. You know, not a lot of dads get a chance to do that. Well, you're lucky, you know, because there's another kind of piece of advice that people give, which is never go into business with your relatives because you don't know what's going to happen. And, you know, sometimes when you're making TV and film, you know, it can be intense.

There are budgets and schedules and studio executives. And, you know, it can be difficult. Well, you know, that was the initial – my initial nightmare when I started working on this thing with Daniel was, you know, thinking what if he doesn't have it? You know, we're starting to write and put together this show, and I'm thinking, what if he just can't do it? What am I going to do? Do I tell him? Do I, at some point, do I sit him down saying, son, you know what, this is not really going to work? Or do I not say anything and just spend time working on this thing that I know probably will never get off the ground? You know, it was a real kind of Sophie's Choice thing for me.

So I – but fortunately, he came through with Flying Colors. Last question. Might there be a Schitt's Creek movie? Well, you know, we've never said, the first thing is coming up with an idea that's as good or better than where we left the show off. And if that, and when that, you know, happens, there's a possibility that, you know, anything could happen in terms of a reunion. But I can't say we're terribly close to that right now, but we would never rule it out. Well, good luck. Eugene Levy, it's been fun.

Thanks so much for speaking with us. Thank you, Dave. Eugene Levy stars in the Apple TV Plus series The Reluctant Traveler. Season two premiered last week and new episodes drop on Fridays. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Sallet, Phyllis Myers,

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