Fresh Air - Best Of: Ta-Nehisi Coates / John Leguizamo

Episode Date: October 5, 2024

Ta-Nehisi Coates talks about his trip to Senegal and reflects on his ancestors taken from that side of the ocean and sent to their enslavement in America. Coates is best known for his Atlantic magazine cover story "The Case for Reparations" and for his book Between the World and Me, which he wrote as a letter to his son about what he'll face as a Black man.We'll also hear from actor, comedian, and activist John Leguizamo. His latest project is a docuseries on PBS about the history of Latinos in the Americas, covering thousands of years, from pre-Columbian Inca, Maya, and Aztec civilizations to the fight for Latino civil rights.Plus, Ken Tucker reviews Bob Dylan's new collection, The 1974 Live Recordings.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Tanya Mosley with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, Ta-Nehisi Coates talks about his trip to Senegal and reflects on his ancestors taken from that side of the ocean and sent to their enslavement in America. Coates is best known for his Atlantic magazine cover story, The Case for Reparations, and for his book Between the World and Me, which he wrote as a letter to his son about what he'll face as a black man.

We'll also hear from actor, comedian, and activist John Liquizamo. His latest project is a docuseries on PBS about the history of Latinos in the Americas, covering thousands of years from pre-Columbian Inca, Maya, and Aztec civilizations to the fight for Latino civil rights. And also, Ken Tucker reviews Bob Dylan's new collection, The 1974 Live Recordings. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies.

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weekday on the NPR Politics Podcast, our political reporters break down important stories and backstories from the campaign trail so you understand why it matters to you. Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. This election season, you can expect to hear a lot of news, some of it meaningful, much of it not. Give the Up First podcast 15 minutes, sometimes a little less, and we'll help you sort it out, what's going on around the world and at home. Three stories, 15 minutes, Up First every day. Listen every morning, wherever you get your podcasts. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry has our first interview.

I'll let her introduce it. My guest, Ta-Nehisi Coates, is best known for his book, Between the World and Me, which was written in the form of a letter to his 15-year-old son about what it means to be a black teenager and a black man in America. It won a 2015 National Book Award. His Atlantic magazine cover story, The Case for Reparations, sparked a national conversation about the historical ways in which black people were denied opportunities to create generational wealth that have led to continuing financial and educational inequality. His new book, The Message, is about what he learned about race and identity

visiting three different places. In Senegal, he thought about his ancestors and visited the fort on the island of Gorée, the final stop for some captured people before being forced onto a ship, taking them to enslavement in America. In South Carolina, he met with a high school teacher who was prevented from teaching his book Between the World and Me

because it made some students feel uncomfortable and ashamed to be white. In Israel and the occupied territories, he reflected on how victims can become victimizers. The message is written in the form of a letter to his students at his alma mater, Howard University, where he is now the Sterling Brown Endowed Chair in the English Department. Ta-Nehisi Coates, welcome back to Fresh Air. I want to start with your trip to Africa, to Senegal. It sounds like you've been wanting to go for a long time, but you kept putting it off. What was holding you back?

Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Terri, and that really is a great question. I think the first thing to say is that I became an international traveler relatively late in life. I got my adult passport when I was 37 years old. And so my experience with travel was not particularly diverse to begin with. And what travel I did, I think up until the writing of this book, what international travel I did for the most part, I think I thought of as leisurely for the most part. Going to Senegal was not that. And I think on some level I always knew that. Like, it was a trip that I knew I had to take.

But I think I, in the back of my mind, knew that I would have to confront some things. That it would not be a vacation. That it would not necessarily be relaxing, that it would be more akin to a pilgrimage of sorts. And that's kind of what it turned into. So what made you decide the time had come? I couldn't keep putting it off. I mean, that's the fact of the matter. I was putting it off.

I don't know that I had the words at that point in time to tell you why I was putting it off, but I was. I was. And I had a reaction that I cannot repeat on radio as the plane descended out of the clouds. And I looked down and I saw the buildings of Dakar shooting up. And it is not a reaction I've ever had in anywhere else that I've been. Describe the reaction more. I uttered a profanity. And I didn't mean to, and it came out of nowhere. And I was shocked myself to hear me utter that profanity. But I think it was evidence of some things that I really had been burying that had to be confronted. Like what? There is, when you're black in this country,

Africa, or a story that's told about Africa, is a weight, and in many ways it's a cudgel that is used to beat on us, and it's historically been used to beat on us. And I emphasize the story of Africa, not necessarily Africa itself, but the story of it. And the story of it goes something like this. It is a dark continent filled with jungle and uncivilized people.

And by uncivilized, I mean people that have never done anything, people who are barbaric and violent and are at a lower order of humanity. And that story of Africa is as at least old as enslavement. You know, it hasn't always been the story of it, but it is, you know, one that is, you know, pretty, has its origins in enslavement. And thus, it's the story that most African Americans are raised under the weight of. But what happened with my parents' generation was that a counter story was told. And that counter story sought to take the narrative, the racist narrative of Africa, and go to the other end and say, in fact, this was a place of great kingdoms, of great people who had done great things. And we were descendants of those great people. And you see that in the adoption, for instance, of people in my generation where I think it really, you know, began to be popularized of African names, for instance, African traditions, the creation of ostensibly holidays that, you know, claim to have African roots, although, you know, they really are African American, but just an attempt to reclaim your roots and recreate a connection with the

place. But your name is an example of that. My name is very much an example of that, which, this is very difficult to say. I mean, I write it obviously, has always been a point of contention for me, I think, in my head, it calls attention to itself. It's unusual even being born into a community where many people have names that are unusual by American standards. My name was still very, very much unusual. But I think what my parents sought to do from the moment I was born was inure me against the racism of culture that pervades American life and really takes, you know, Africa and the story of Africa as its root. And what they sought to do was throw it back. And what they picked for me was an ancient Egyptian name that refers to the ancient kingdom

of Nubia in the south, the place of ostensibly black kings and black kingdoms and black queens and great deeds that were done by black people. And to root me in that as a counter to the racist narrative that I would undoubtedly hear as I went through my life. So of all the places in Africa you could go to, you chose Dakar, Senegal. Have you traced your ancestors to that place? I have not. I have not. I mean, I have kind of, I do have some ancestry there, but that wasn't what I had particularly in mind. I chose Dakar because I had already had an interest in French. It was a language that I studied, that I continue

to study. And this is not in the book, but when I was a much younger man, boy, in fact, I was a drummer and I played the djembe drum and I played in a style that came out of Senegal. And so I had this kind of connection to it in my mind already. And so it just seemed like the place to go. So even though you didn't have ancestors that you know of that could be traced to Senegal, you did feel like you were in some kind of communication with ghosts there, with the ghosts there. I did. I did very, very much, very, very much. And, you know, it's like, I guess what I would say about that is, like, I've done those ancestry DNA tests that, you know, trace you to Senegal.

And there is something there, like, there is some percentage of me that comes from Senegal, right, or comes from the area that, you know, became Senegal, but it just, that didn't really matter. You know what I mean? Like that, that wasn't really significant. And I think I was so dismissive in some respects. I took so much of an empirical approach to this that I was shocked to get there and have this intense emotional reaction. Now, all the black people listening to this are saying, duh. And maybe you would say, duh, given that I had put it off. Maybe that says that I should have known that on some level, I did know that there would be some sort of intense emotional reaction. But I'm telling

you, Terry, I've never felt anything like that in my life. Was there a particular moment that sparked that feeling for the first time? There were a few. But the one that I think about most is I stayed in a very, very nice hotel that was on the beach. It's hard for me to even call it a beach, but it was on the beach of Senegal, and I got there that morning, took a nap, I think, woke up for dinner, got dressed for dinner, walked outside. And on this beach, there were people very clearly vacationing, people with their kids and frolicking in the water. And there was one of those really fancy pools that was kind of level with the ground and people serving drinks and there was a dj and i went and i sat down and the restaurant i sat down in which was attached to the hotel was outside

and um i sat down and where i was seated i could look out onto the atlantic ocean and i knew that what i was feeling at that moment was not what everybody else there was feeling. And it was like I was at a funeral and everybody else was at a wedding. That's what it felt like. Because the people who were enslaved in America who left from that part of Africa crossed the Atlantic Ocean. Yes. In the Middle Passage. And like, I'm looking out and my family, as I say in the book, is from a small town called Berlin, Maryland, on the eastern shore.

And when I was a child, we would go to Berlin and Ocean City, Maryland is not that far from there. And Ocean City is right on the tip of the edge of Maryland. You literally can swim out into the ocean. And I would do that every summer with my mother. And I would see my family that had been in that region, you know, for as long as we can, you know, trace back. And then there I was on the other side of the ocean, you know, at this place where this epic, this story that is my life, that was my parents' life, began. And there was an overwhelming feeling that came from that. island of Gorée and visited the fort where some captured people were sent to American enslavement? Yes. And once again, I emphasize how unprepared I was because there was a large body of scholarship on Gorée that points out that, you know, originally Gorée was sold largely to African

Americans and people in the Black D diaspora at large as this point of no return where some, you know, untold numbers, you know, millions of enslaved Black people had passed through this one specific door. And it was a grand story, the story, you know, the kind of story that we had hungered for. And, you know, of course, scholars got a hold of the story. It turned out not exactly to be true. And so I was aware of that scholarship. And so I said, okay, I got to go to Goree because, you know, can't be black American and come to Senegal and not go to Goree. So I'm going to go to Goree.

You know what I mean? And as casually as I'm speaking right now is as casually as I guess I was thinking about it. And man, I got on that ship, that shuttle that takes you from Dakar out to Goree, which maybe takes about 20 minutes or so. And that shuttle pulled off. And it was early in the morning, about 7 a.m. I had went at that time because I wanted to avoid the tourists. And I was up on the second level looking out. And when that shuttle pulled off, you know, I had all of the feelings in the world. They all converged on me.

And they converged on me, you know, with even more strength. Once I got, you know, to the world, they all converged on me. And they converged on me, you know, with even more strength once I got, you know, to the island as I walked around. And this is what I mean about the power of imagination. Did you imagine yourself being one of the people who was about to be enslaved if they survived the trip? I didn't picture it like that. What I imagined is my many, many, many, many, many grandmothers who were taken in that way. That was what I saw. That was what it, and that just, that hit hard. We're listening to Terry's conversation with Ta-Nehisi Coates about his new book, The Message. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break.

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This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates. He's best known for his book Between the World and Me, which won a National Book Award, and his Atlantic Magazine cover story, The Case for Reparations. His new book, The Message, is about his reflections on race, slavery, colonialism, and identity on trips to South Carolina, Senegal, Israel, and the West Bank. I want to talk with you a little bit about language because part of the book is about being, you know, teaching writing and literature at Howard University, and about how you fell in love with language when you were really young, how your mother taught you to read before you were even in school. And one of the examples you give is like falling in love with Shakespeare.

Yeah, I am on my leech. Yeah, in my leech. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So I want to read the passage that you quote in here that you fell in love with. So this is from Macbeth, and I'm just going to read this. Second Murderer speaks. I am one, my liege, whom the vile blows and buffets of the world hath so incensed that I am reckless what I listen to that. I'm not exactly sure. I have a sense of what that means, but I'm not exactly sure. And I don't know how old you were when you fell in love with that passage.

But, you know, the problem that everybody runs up against when reading Shakespeare is all these, like, now archaic words and, like... Oh, but they're beautiful words. They are, but... And they're words we shouldn't have lost. Like, actually, you know, do you really want me to break this down? Yeah, yeah, yeah, do it. So, obviously, I am one of my lost. Like, actually, you know, do you really want me to break this down?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, do it. So, obviously, I am one of my legions talking to, you know, somebody who is, you know, of high royal status, whom the vile blows and buffets of the world. I mean, that was just, once I got it, like, that was incredible. What he's saying is, like, these, like, the cruel, you know, blows and buffets, these attacks that I've endured that are vile, that I didn't deserve, have so incensed, they've so angered me, that I am reckless what I do to spite the world. I don't, you know, there's language that I can't use here, that I don't care, you know,

what happens. I'm so upset by how cruelly this world has treated me, that I really, that I really don't care. You know, and in the says you know and I another um me so weary with this me too yeah he says me too you know I'm weary with disaster like the hyperbole I'm weary with disaster tugged with fortune not misfortune tugged with fortune you know what I mean I would set my life I would give my life. I put my life on the table, you know, to mend it or be rid on it, to mend it, to fix this or I'm out. You know what I mean? And I heard that and I said. Man, I know people like that. I know what that is. I know what that is to feel that you are so that you've been so cruelly mistreated by the world, that you don't really care about the world. You would do anything. And on top of that, that you feel that you would do anything to mend it or to be rid on it.

Like, either this gets fixed or I'm out. You know what I mean? Like, that is in, you know, all the gangster rap. That's in hip hop. That's in, you know, all our movies and, you know, Minutes to Society. I think about Old Dog. I mean, that is an ethic that is really, really strong. And anybody who's come up close to the street would recognize and to think that the realization that hit me was that it was some 500 years old.

That here I was in the 1990s and in Baltimore City public schools seeing this. And some dude 500 years before who knew nothing about the street, who knew nothing about me as a black person, but knew humanity could see this. Now, that's powerful. That is powerful. I love this. You're probably a great teacher. And I had a great teacher who read all of Hamlet out loud to us. Oh, I would have loved that. It was great. And she explained all of the like, I never heard that word before. She explained all those words. She explained the meaning. It just became beautiful. So I don't want anyone to think I'm opposed to Shakespeare because he's not relatable.

No, I mean, I like conferring then on younger strengths. I mean, like younger side, that's Hamlet. But like all of that language is incredible. It's beautiful, beautiful language. And you see, we as writers, what we should be doing and what I try to teach my kids to do is like your job is to use all of these tools that you have, even in ways that people, you know, may not think are correct or would not automatically occur to them to clarify as much as you possibly can. You lived in Paris for a year. I don't know how good your French is, but it's probably not quite as good as your English. No, no, pas du tout.

So what was it like for you to spend a year in a place where you couldn't use your greatest gift, which is language? I mean, you could use it, but not to its fullest extent. It was thrilling. Why was that thrilling? Well, there's a part in the book where I talk about where I'm in Dakar, and it's like either the second day I'm there, I believe, and I'm in Dakar. And it's like either the second day I'm there, I believe. And I'm trying to figure out how to eat, you know, how to get lunch. And all I have is, you know, my mangled French.

And they're speaking, you know, a mix of French and Wolof. And I've been recommended to this restaurant. And I walk in and I just sort of stand there and nobody says anything or does anything. And I have to figure out how to get to the table. And it's really not that big of a deal, but it stressed me out. And I am not somebody who likes horror movies or roller coasters. But what I discovered was I am a thrill seeker. And like that moment of having to figure out how to navigate, ultimately getting to my table and then sitting there with this bowl of heaping rice and fish. I felt so incredible at that moment. And Paris and France, and I think to some extent anywhere in the world you are where you don't speak the language, and English is not the

predominant thing. It's like that. You go outside and you feel like you're on roller skates the whole time and everybody else is just walking normally. That is beautiful. That discomfort is, like, that's the stuff of life for me. You know, like, that's where I should be. I shouldn't be somewhere where people are, you know, telling me, you know, how honored a writer I am and how great I am and how much they love my books. No, no, no, no. I need to be somewhere where people don't care,

where I'm falling over myself, where I'm not conjugating correctly, where I'm tripping, because that's the place where I'm actually getting stronger. You know, I loved it. I still do love it. Ta-Nehisi Coates, thank you so much for coming back to our show. Thanks for having me, Terry. Ta-Nehisi Coates' new book is called The Message. He spoke with Terry Gross. Bob Dylan and the band toured together in January and February of 1974 in a series of 40 concerts in 21 cities that resulted in a live double album called Before the Flood, which was released later that same year. But the amount of

music available from that heralded now 50-year-old tour has just increased dramatically with the release of a massive 27-CD set called the 1974 Live Recordings. It captures some of the most raucous rock and roll Dylan has ever made. Rock critic Ken Tucker listened to all 431 songs in this collection and has this review. You say you love me and you are thinking of me, but you know you could be wrong. You say you told me that you want to hold me, but you know you're not that strong. I just can't do What I've done before I just can't

Break you anymore I'm gonna let you pass Yes, now go last And then time will tell Who has failed And who's been left behind. Oh, you go your way and I go mine. That locomotive power and rhythm, the headlong, careening pace,

the way the vocals are shouted into a gale-force wind created by the guitars, the drums, and the yelling of the audience. That's the way Bob Dylan and the band commenced many dates on their 1974 tour, with a steamrolling version of Most Likely You'll Go Your Way and I'll Go Mine. The version I played to start this review is from the January 30th show at Madison Square Garden. Here's how they grappled with Tough Mama, a rollicking barroom brawl of a song from Dylan's then-current album Planet Waves, in a Philadelphia afternoon show. I'm gonna go down to the river and get some stones I was in the house, here I've been through Sisters in their big house, their working days are through

Talk my love, can I blow the smoke on you? When Bob Dylan first toured with the band, then called the Hawks, in 1966, it was soon after he'd gone electric and his folky fan base came out to boo him. Guitarist Robbie Robertson wrote about how depressing it was to go from town to town and face such hostile disapproval night after night. One way to hear the beginning of the 1974 tour, therefore, is as Bob's revenge. He and Robbie and drummer Levon Helm, bassist Rick Danko, keyboardists Garth Hudson and Richard Manuel greet the now adoring fans with shocking aggressiveness, their instruments

blazing every night, a high noon showdown. Girl, I swear she's a screamin' hit And that girl, I swear she's a screamin' hit She don't need to be a hero So she can tell her lover a friend That's the song that kicked off the entire tour in Chicago, a deep-cut obscurity called Hero Blues, which was never played again. The standard set list for this tour included such Dylan touchstones as Like a Rolling Stone, Lay, Lady, Lay, and Forever Young. But there's not a trace of nostalgia in these performances. You have to understand, Big Star acts just did not play their hits live

in this manner 50 years ago. The idea had always been to reproduce, to the best of one's ability, the sound of the studio recordings, and then toss in some well-rehearsed spontaneity to make the crowd feel it was getting a unique experience. But Dylan and the band gave new meaning to the term bang for your buck. They detonated, exploded these songs. You might have known what tune you were about to get from the opening chords, but you sure as heck couldn't imagine the frenzy of what was to follow. People call me baby, where are you? You're bound to fall You thought that was all kidding you

You used to laugh about Everybody that was hanging out Now you don't talk so loud Now you don't talk so loud Now you don't seem so proud About having to be scrounging around To make your next meal How does that feel? How does that feel?

To be without a home With no direction home Like a complete unknown Like a rolling stone There was a fair amount of revisionist thinking about this tour in the years following it, with some commentators saying the music was too loud, rushed, and messy, that Dylan was willfully mangling his own songs. Dylan himself contributed to this revisionism by giving interviews putting down the tour. He told Cameron Crowe,

it was all sort of mindless. The only thing people talked about was energy this, energy that. The highest compliments were things like, wow, a lot of energy, man. On stage, Dylan sounds at various times impatient, cranky, contemptuous, not of the audience but of his own performance. There are moments when he lures the band into matching his own foul mood. Listen to the way Garth Hudson mimics on his keyboard the prissy phrasing Dylan uses to begin a pretty terrible version of Ballad of a Thin Man. You walk into the room With your pencil in your hand See somebody naked

You say, who is that man? You try so hard But you don't understand What you're gonna say when you get home You know something's happening here But you don't know what it is Tell you, Mr. Jones That was from a Philadelphia afternoon show.

Now listen to the far better, more animated, more committed version of the same song he performed the next night in the same city. You walk into the room With your pencil in your hand See somebody naked Say, who is that man He tries so hard But you don't understand

What you're gonna say When you get home Because something is happening But you don't know what it is Oh, you, Mr. Jones Bob Dylan and Garth Hudson are now the only ones alive from the six men on stage here. I had a great time listening to these 27 discs over a number of days, and I never felt I was dwelling in the past.

Dylan and the band's sometimes exhilarated, sometimes exhausted, always craving a change music suits the era we're living in. It's 50 years old, but it's also right on time. But lately I see her ribbons and her bows Ken Tucker reviewed Bob Dylan's 1974 live recordings. Coming up, we hear from actor, comedian, and activist John Liquizamo. His latest project is a docuseries on PBS about the history of Latinos in the Americas. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. This message comes from the Open Book with Jenna podcast. Join the Today Show's Jenna Bush Hager

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wherever you listen. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Our next guest is John Lakewazamo. For the last four decades, we've watched him go from a one-man show and stand-up comedian to television and TV actor,

activist, and now educator. His latest project, an ambitious docuseries on the history of Latinos, feels like an inflection point for a man who has spent his career asserting himself as a Latino American while also discovering his place in this country. The new docuseries, now airing on PBS, is called Voces, American Historia, The Untold History of Latinos, which he co-created with director Ben DeJesus. It's like a textbook on screen, with Leguizamo at the head of the class, exploring Latino contributions to the Americas over thousands of years. If this sounds familiar, that's because this series is an evolution of Lake Wazamo's 2018 one-man show called Latin History for Morons,

which aired on Netflix. John Lake Wazamo is an Emmy and Tony Award-winning performer who began doing stand-up in the 80s and gained critical acclaim for his one-man semi-autobiographical shows about growing up in Queens, including Mambo Mouth and Freak, where Leguizamo portrayed dozens of characters from his life growing up in Queens, including friends, relatives, and neighbors. He's performed in over a hundred films and television shows, including his breakthrough roles in 93 as Luigi in Super Mario Brothers, and Brian De Palma's Carlito's Way as Carlito's nemesis, Benny Blanco from the Bronx. He also starred in Moulin Rouge!, and he currently hosts the MSNBC travel show, Lake Wazamo Does America.

John Lake Wazamo, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thank you, Tanya. What a pleasure to be here with you. John, I absolutely loved Latin history for morons. And for those who don't know it, in 2018, you did this one-man show on Broadway where you essentially got on stage and traced 3,000 years of Latin history. And the idea was actually spawned from this discovery that your son was being bullied. And it almost feels like you were working out this idea for what is now this new docuseries. Is that what was happening? How did you come to this idea for American Historia? Oh, Tanya, that's so true. I mean, the Genesis was basically my son was in eighth grade

and he was doing a history project and he was being bullied at the same time. And I wanted to help him with his project to be a good dad, get some brownie points for my wife. And I realized that there was no Latino contributions to the making of American history in his textbook. And so as super sleuth dad, I got all these books on Latin history on Amazon and went to all the sites, and it was I that was changed. My molecules, when I found all this information, incredible countless facts and data

about our contributions to the making of the U.S. and the world, I became a different person from feeling small to feeling like a giant. Well, John, your entire career, as I said in the introduction, you've kind of been asserting your Latinoness. You've been the person who has been speaking about, like, this is who we are and these are our contributions. For this documentary, though, you will choose three different time periods. And I'm really curious how you decided to choose them because, as I think I've heard you say, there is no Ken Burns doc or Discovery Channel show or even textbooks. I mean, you went to Amazon to find some of these books, but a lot of the history that is in this documentary, many of us have never heard before.

Tanya, you're so right. I mean, John Hopkins University and Unidos US did a study and found that 87% of Latino contributions to the making of the US are not in history textbooks. So that's what's in this show, that 87% that's missing. When I did the show, I wanted to be like Latino culture was on trial. And I wanted to have evidence. I wanted to have facts. I wanted to have testimonies. I wanted to have quotes. I wanted to have evidence to support this because there's a lot of deniers uh and and they're going to be deniers about our contribution so i wanted to be fact check proof and and so i got these historians these experts these archaeologists to be on camera with me i got all these allies from my my 40 years in the business as allies to come and make these quotes come to life because there's

not a lot of footage at the conquest. There's not a lot of footage of the 15 and 1600s. So I had to get quotes as many and I pulled as many as I could. And I got Bryan Cranston and Liev Schreiber and Benjamin Brad and Ethan Hawke and Lawrence Fishburne and Rosario Dawson to make them come to life. Incredible allyship. And it warmed my heart. I mean, the facts are astounding. Right. You're like a walking textbook now. And what I also feel from you is kind of this phenomenon that always happens is once you see it, you can't unsee it. So true, true. Like you're you really sound like a man on a mission. Yeah, I'm like the rain man of Latin data and facts. And I'm okay with that.

I'm nerding out on you, I know, and on your public. But these facts, they change your chromosomes. They change your DNA. You know, you're a young Latin man or young Latin woman in America, and you're growing up here, and there's nothing in literature that reflects you or history textbooks or math. And you feel very small. And then when I start reading these facts about our contributions and our empires, that our empires were bigger than European empires, that they were more advanced than European empires. It blows your mind that the Aztecs had toilets with running water that they bathed three times a day, that the Incas had superior brain surgery that the modern world hadn't achieved till after the Civil War.

They had anesthesia that we gave the world. We had suspension bridges. Incas had binary code back then before computers today. These are some of the findings you get, and you're like, wait a minute, what? How is this kept from me? Why is this kept from me? And then you start to understand that he who writes the history textbooks controls society. Plato said he who tells the stories controls society. And, you know, it's been true and it's intuitive truth as well. us to note, you share the distinction between Latino and Hispanic, especially as it pertains to how you approached this history in the docu-series. You do this at the top of every episode. Can you very quickly share that distinction? There's a huge distinction.

And we Latinos are grappling with our identity, you know, on a daily basis and trying to do the best we can because we haven't done as well as we should have, like including our Afro-Latinos and giving tribute to our indigenous Latino side, which is a huge part of our DNA. Hispanic means you speak Spanish. And for the most part, Hispanics are from Spain. But we are all Hispanics because we all speak Spanish. But Latino means you're not from Spain, means you're from Latin America, means you were colonized, means you're from the Caribbean, Mexico, the stealing of our incredible wealth and land wealth and exploitation for 500 years. That's what Latino means to me. And Latino is African,

indigenous, and Spanish by blood. I'm a snap to that because that's exactly what I feel Latino is. The majority of us are mestizo, indigenous, and Afro-Latino. We have a mixture of all that, and that's Latino. There are white Latinos, but they're a very small percentage, but they do run things in Latin America. And that's where the colorism happens and racism in our own countries exists. You know, another topic that you take on in this doc is to chart how language, in particular Spanish, was weaponized. I mean, you actually go as far back as when the Europeans interacted with Native Americans who spoke their own language. Over time, we saw this enter the school system where children were separated from their Spanish language. And Professor Valiz-Abenez talked about a memory growing up in the Southwest that was especially painful for him. I want to

take a moment to listen to what he had to say. Let's listen. Segregation has many implications and many consequences. In our particular case, Spanish language has been used as a racist trope. And for those of us who were in school, we were forbidden to speak Spanish. And for every word of Spanish that you spoke, we were hit with a bat that had been shaved with holes at the end. So you went home and your mother might bathe you when you were five years old. She asked, well, you know, what are those marks on your rear end? And I told her, I said, I got spanked. Well, did you misbehave? I said, I don end? And I told her, I said, I got spanked.

Well, did you misbehave? I said, I don't know, but I didn't know why I was being spanked. What occurs is that the child then learns to associate pain with the language that the child is speaking. Now, that language is internalized very early on. The language that's spoken by a mother to her child when she's cooing her child, ay mijito lindo, o le está cantando en español, has a deep implication because you learn then that you've got to hate this language that your mother raised you upon. That was Carlos Velez Ibanez, of trans-border studies at Arizona State University, from the new documentary produced and hosted by my guest today, John Lake Guzamo.

And John, he is touching on the mental health toll of being separated from your language. You're a Columbia-born and Queens-raised, and we're going to talk about that. But what was your relationship with the Spanish language growing up? Well, what he said was so touching and so painful to reveal that I learned in this documentary series. And what he's talking about happened all over the Southwest and the West because, you know, it was all Mexico, Texas, Arizona. They have our names, you know, New Mexico, Arizona's dry land, Nevada's snowy land, California's beautiful temperate zone. Jim Crow laws were for Latinos as well. They called them Juan Crow laws. And you would see

these signs that said no Negroes, no dogs, and no Mexicans. We were at the bottom of the harbor. Underneath the dogs. Yes, underneath the dogs. Because we were the majority of the population all over the West and the Southwest. It had all just been Mexico from 1830s. It stopped being Mexico when we were invaded. So I had a different sort of understanding of Spanish because I didn't grow up in the Southwest. I grew up in the Northeast and in the East Coast. And we Latinos are a little younger population here. And my parents immigrated here, so they had a huge pride of Spanish. They would force us to speak Spanish at home, you know, and I was very

reluctant because all I saw on the media and in my classes was English, so I did not want to speak Spanish. And they would force me to speak Spanish. And now I regret being such an obstinate child because now I want to recoup my Spanish. John, earlier this month at the 76 Primetime Emmy Awards, you spoke about the importance of representation in Hollywood. And you mentioned how you grew up seeing white actors playing characters of Latin descent and how when Latinos were in movies and shows, they were often playing a stereotype. I want us to listen to a little bit of it. Let's listen. I'm John Leguizamo and I'm one of Hollywood's DEI hires.

That's right, DEI. The D is for diligence. The E is for excellence. The I is for imagination. And everyone in this room tonight has dedicated their lives to diligence, excellence, and imagination. And everyone in this room tonight has dedicated their lives to diligence, excellence, and imagination. So we are all DEI hires. And man, what a beautiful and diverse room this is tonight. Because when I was growing up in Jackson Heights, Queens, a scorned little wannabe gangster, you're not from Queens, don't lie.

I didn't know that people like me could be actors. At 15, I didn't know the word representation. Actually, there were a lot of words I didn't know back then. But I saw a lot of brown face. I saw Marlon Brando play a Mexican in Viva Zapata, and Al Pacino play Cuban gangster Tony Montana, and Natalie Wood play a Puerto Rican beauty named Maria. Everybody played us, except us.

I didn't see a lot of people on TV who looked like me. Of course, there was always Ricky Ricardo. Lucy, you got a lot of explaining to do. Eh, eh, eh. And I know some of you remember the Looney Tunes cartoon mouse, Speedy Gonzales. The fastest mouse in all of Mexico. Arriba, arriba, andale. And his lethargic, useless sidekick, Slowpoke Rodriguez.

Sorry, señor Pussycat. I can't play with you no more. It's time for my siesta. And that's how we saw ourselves. Because that's all we saw of ourselves. That was my guest, John Leguizamo, at this year's Primetime Emmy Awards, talking about representation in Hollywood. John, what was the reception to that speech? Wow, it was electric and seismic.

I was a little nervous, you know, because I was saying a lot of edgy things. And luckily, the Emmy committee relented and allowed me because Chris Abrego, the new chairman of the Emmys, is Latino, and he fought for me to be able to say these things. Did you have to show them what you were going to say before you said it? Yes. I had to and it had to be approved and there had to be a lot of conversations because they wanted to keep it light. They didn't want people to feel bad. So I made it as funny and light as possible but I still got my points across which was powerful and I saw people in the audience nodding, hooting, hollering, snapping back and I was like, oh, my God, I got him. And it was quiet sometimes. You could hear a pin drop and then the laughter. And it was wild.

It was such a beautiful experience. You know, there are so many movies that we grew up with that they're just iconic. You know, thinking about when I was a kid, like Scarface, all of the guys I grew up with loved that. It was playing all the time. And I wonder, like, what is your relationship with some of those movies today that really did like sit in those stereotypes? You know, Mexican bandits and Westerns or the West Side Story that cast all white actors to play Puerto Ricans and Scarface. Yeah, you know, at the time I was like, you know, I was, I didn't feel, you know, they made me feel like I didn't deserve to be the leads in our own stories.

I was made to feel that. Now that I'm a grown man, it's not okay. I'm enraged by it. You took an opportunity of a Latin person. Antonio Banderas playing Latinos, he's not Latino. He's a white European colonizer. It's not his fault. I'm not saying that.

It's because we don't have Latino executives who say, look, you're not Latino. Why are you taking Latino roles? Pacino, you're a white Italian. Why are you playing a Puerto Rican in Carlitos way and playing a Cuban in Scarface? Those should be Latino roles, and it should be Latinos playing them. And I'm going to say something controversial. This Menendez story being done right now. On Netflix. There's only one real Latino.

There's only one real Latino in that cast. It's a Latino story, a horrible Latino story, but there's plenty of Latino actors to play the dad. I love Javier Bardem. I think he's an incredible actor but he's not Latino he's a white Spaniard and a little bit of brown face going on

and that's not cool I'm going to do like Kendrick Lamar going after Drake I'm sorry but those roles should be to David Zayas Benjamin Bratt there's tons of Latino actors and talent out there. Put Latinos in Latino roles.

Let's not do a disservice. I see so much Latin talent being laid to waste. Dreams allowed to desiccate. Use our Latin talent. John Leguizamo, it was such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Oh,izamo, it was such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, Tanya, it was a blast. John Leguizamo's new PBS series is called Voces, American Historia, the Untold History of Latinos.

Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley. Who's claiming power this election? What's happening in battleground states? And why do we still have the Electoral College? All this month, the ThruLine podcast is asking big questions about our democracy and going back in time to answer them. Listen now to the relationship between anxiety and horror movies.

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