Fresh Air - Bradley Cooper & Conductor Yannick Nézet-Séguin

Episode Date: February 23, 2024

In his Oscar-nominated biopic Maestro, Bradley Cooper was determined not to imitate the legendary Leonard Bernstein. Instead, the actor worked with conductor Yannick Nézet-Séguin to find his own rhythm. They spoke with Terry Gross about conducting, Bernstein's legacy, and playing with batons when they were kids. Also, Justin Chang reviews Italy's submission for best foreign film, Io Capitano.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. We're counting down to the Oscars, and today we feature our interview about the film Maestro. It's been nominated for seven Academy Awards, including Best Picture, Actor and Actress, and Original Screenplay. Let's listen to Terry's interview from last month. My guest Bradley Cooper directed, co-wrote, and stars in the new film Maestro. He plays the internationally famous composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein. Also with us is the internationally famous conductor, who served as Cooper's conducting consultant, Yannick Nézet-Séguin. He's the music and artistic director of the Philadelphia Orchestra, music director of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra,

and principal conductor of the Orchestra Métropolitaine de Montréal. Bernstein is considered the first great American conductor. He led the New York Philharmonic from 1957 to 69. He wrote classical music. His most popular music was the music he wrote for Broadway musicals, including On the Town, Wonderful Town, West Side Story, and Candide, and the score for the film On the Waterfront. Maestro is about his music life and his personal life. He was a very public figure, appearing often on TV and leading the Philharmonic in his young people's concerts. A major part of his life was kept hidden from the public. Although he was married to the actress Felicia Cohn-Montalegre,

and they had three children together, he was bisexual or gay and had flirtations and boyfriends during the years he was married. Felicia is played by Carey Mulligan. Bradley Cooper also wrote, directed, and starred in the 2018 adaptation of A Star is Born and starred in Nightmare Alley, American Sniper, American Hustle, Silver Linings Playbook, and The Hangover Films. Bradley Cooper, Yannick Nézet again. Welcome back to both of you. I really enjoyed this movie and I'm grateful to have the chance to talk with you both. The pleasure is ours. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for having us. Oh, thank you, Yannick. Bradley, you wanted to conduct since you were a child.

And you asked for a baton as a birthday gift when you were a kid. And you conducted records in your bedroom. Brother, before learning how to conduct for real when you were conducting as a kid, did you just like basically wave your arms around a lot passionately when you were air conducting? I mean, I won't take offense to that, Terry. No, no offense intended. But I think there was more musicality involved. But yes, one can make the argument. But no, I felt, I mean, obviously, I love music rhythm. And there was something magical about being able to physically move to a rhythm and the changing of rhythms always, and then having a baton and then in my imagination,

be able to perceive that I was actually harnessing and commanding that music. I mean, it was really like a magic trick every time. all I needed was music and that baton, and I felt like I could be a wizard. You know, Bradley, I did the same, exactly at the same age. And I do believe that, you know, maybe we, Terry, we were waving arms passionately because in a way, the first immediate draw

that we have with conducting, and I know if I speak for myself, of course I was learning piano, But when I got interested to say, how can it be magical that someone waves their arm and just having this magic wand and music happens, and it's a group. And Yannick, what is your relationship musically to Bernstein? Was he an important figure in your musical education? Bernstein was hands down always my greatest conducting model. I unfortunately can't call him a mentor because he passed away when I was 15. Well, we were both 15, Bradley and I. But still, from the recordings,

the videos, because he's, of course, a very documented conductor, I always felt, even when I was a teenager, that this is the way I wanted to express music on the podium, just express with all my body and not being shy of showing my emotions on the podium. So I'm really not the only one to say this, but clearly Bernstein was a great role model. So there's a piece, it's kind of like the musical centerpiece of the film is when Bradley, you as Bernstein are conducting Mahler's second, the final movement, and this is also known as the Resurrection Symphony. And you're conducting with enormous passion.

And I want to talk with you about conducting that. I want to talk with both of you about that. And then I want to play an excerpt of that piece. So let's get to Yannick. Let's start with you. This is a very complicated piece to conduct. There's, I think, 100 people in the chorus and 100 musicians, and they're kind of on opposite sides of you. So like the conductor has to keep like turning. He's conducting like two separate groups at the same time. So let's start there. Like how, Yannick, how do you do that?

And two soloists, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and two vocal soloists. The more the merrier we say, but the more people, the more complex it is to conduct. That's for sure. And the magnitude of this piece in terms of the requirements of, like you just said, the number of people doing so many things at the same time and add to this an organ. So, I mean, this, just from a logistics point of view, for a conductor, it's the most complex.

Now, this specific moment also adds to this that it comes at the very end of a very long symphony that's about 90 minutes long. So you're almost one hour and a half into blood and sweat and tears of some of the most soulful and profound music that's ever been written. And as a conductor, you're there, you have to keep your mind cool because you need to still direct the traffic, for lack of a better explanation, well, but also being completely emotionally involved in the meaning of this music.

And so, you know, personally, that piece has always been so important to me that when I got the chance in my early 20s to conduct a Mahler symphony, I jumped on the opportunity to start with the second symphony. Now, I don't recommend this as the start because I think it was almost suicidal, but I survived and it happened that my first performance ever of this was right after 9-11. It was actually in 2001 and that's really unforgettable for me, of course, because of the circumstances. So back to the movie, I believe that it is because it's difficult and because it's challenging, not so much for the logistics, but really emotionally, I think this is why it's so important that it's in the movie. And that's really the scene that we see. And that's why, Bradley, you chose this really, really almost

at the beginning, that this is the music you wanted to be part of the movie. And isn't it true, too, that Bernstein championed Mahler? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that Bernstein kind of brought Mahler into the canon. Before Bernstein, Mahler was completely snubbed, overlooked. Everybody was saying, oh, Mahler is overblown, Mahler is exaggerated, Mahler. He was completely misunderstood. And if you think about it, Bernstein himself past. And this is, I believe, where we understand him more. And same happened with Mahler, but it needed someone. And that someone was Leonard Bernstein, who really put Mahler into the core repertoire because he was such an advocate, but also such a great interpreter of him. So Bradley, what did you do to get as accurately as you could what Bernstein did to conduct this piece?

I mean, it's a very tricky endeavor because I had no desire to imitate what he was doing because that would have been a soulless, in my experience, endeavor. And I learned that early on when I did American Sniper. It was the best way to create a human being would be to take all of myself and the research of Chris Kyle was the human and then the character in American Sniper. And it wasn't doing an imitation of Chris Kyle, but immersing myself enough in the world and letting that sort of alchemy occur. Now, there's this incredible video of Lenny conducting this piece in 1973 in Ely Cathedral with the London Symphony Orchestra, which is exactly what we replicated. But I always knew that I wasn't going to just imitate what he

was doing. It was actually finding that middle ground. And Yannick was in particular so supportive of me as Lenny finding whatever that mode of conducting is, which was of course infused entirely by not only the interpretation of the score, which is what we did in terms of tempo, but also in terms of his gesticulating and all of that, but having it be original because the goal was to conduct in real time this piece and record it. So the part I want to start with at the end of Resurrection is where there's a slight pause in the music. It's like one beat and then the music

begins again. And when the music begins again, right after a choral part, um, or I should say a soloist part, um, you as Bernstein jump and, you know, jump in the air and continue conducting. Was jumping a kind of Bernstein thing? Oh yeah yeah. And in particular, he jumps in that moment, in that piece. But yeah, there's wonderful photographs of him, you know, levitating above the podium. And many recordings of one being able to hear his feet stomping on the podium after having been, you know, a foot in the air. So yeah, that was one of his trademark sonic gifts to his conducting. Yannick, do you ever jump? I do.

I unfortunately do a lot. But I say unfortunately. I don't think I should be ashamed of it. You know, sometimes we're taught in school, it's still taught that conducting should be this and that and in a box and not too much of this and not too much of that. And I don't want to hear to insult any great conducting teachers, you know, around the world. You know, they're doing amazing work. But sometimes we forget that conducting is about just living the music. And at that moment, that's what Lenny taught all of us in a way.

At that moment, the music is jumping. There is this big, it's almost like the whole world is waking up. So one needs to illustrate that. And why not jump, you know, as long as it's organic? One more thing I want to ask before we hear the music, and that is, there are passages in this in which, Bradley, you have your mouth wide open, as if just, you know, like singing along or just expressing this sense of awe with your mouth, like wide open. And Yannick, I think I've seen you do that at the podium. Am I right?

I cannot imagine conducting mouth closed, especially not when there's a chorus. I mean, conductors, we don't sing. We might moan a bit or whatever happens through our mouth. Oh, I feel like I'm quoting one line from the movie now, but no spoilers. But what I'm saying is that, yeah, Lenny did that a lot. And I think we all do it because it's, yeah, it's kind of breathing. It's letting even more the sound feeling open when we let our mouth open. There's something that, you know, the arms are open, the heart is open, and therefore the mouth is just opening up all that's possible for one of the greatest climactic moments in the music. And Bradley, do you want to talk about conducting with your mouth open like that? What was going through your mind? It's very funny you say that. So I did notice that I opened my

mouth a lot just conducting to a recording of anything. And thank goodness Lenny did that. In the video from 1973, as I recall, he's only opening his mouth when he's actually saying the words of Mahler's Resurrection that the chorus is saying. And what's in the movie is the last take. The way it went down is I really messed up the whole first day. And also, because I had entered into it with fear and 99% of the movie I went into fearlessly, but I'd set up all of these cameras really thinking that deep down I wasn't going to be able to conduct it and I'd have to cut, edit, create a scene out of, in the editing room. And so I went into it already fearful. And obviously when you do that, you can be struck by fear and then not be able to succeed.

And so I was behind tempo. I forgot to cue people and I messed up. And the second day, which we weren't even supposed to shoot that scene, I brought in the techno crane, which is a manner of filming from outside into the hall. And I created one single shot, which is what it always should have been. So, because I really let loose that last take, and I did an audible prayer in front of everybody to Lenny, thanking him and thanking them, and we did it one more time, and I really allowed myself true abandon, and that's why my mouth was open open and that's sort of more than I would have liked but it was so pure and real that I thought no this is it this is it and it's and it's off it is 100 authentic so I can't there there was no reasoning behind it Terry other than that's kind

of what um happened organically but I was um aware that maybe that would be weird, but it's real. It's important, Terry, to know that, you know, it was a crafted interpretation, not on click, not on anything. People were playing on Bradley's conducting and I was there guiding and I had been rehearsing, but we crafted an interpretation, which would be to explain to the listeners, you know, you can play the smaller symphony a million ways, and you can be a little bit more straightforward and just get and not pull so much before the big chords that are climactic. But actually, you know, Lenny, that's not how he did. He was always holding and holding more and then drawing every little ounce or every little drop of life out of this music. And this is what we crafted. And therefore, this is the way you conducted, Bradley, this last take. And this is why it's so powerful. And I cannot imagine how

Lenny would have done this with his mouth closed. All right, so time to actually hear the piece of music we've been talking about. This is Mahler's Second Symphony, and what we're hearing is the finale, and this is also called the Resurrection Symphony. So here's the end, and again, it starts with Bradley Cooper as Bernstein jumping in the air. This is partly through the finale. Here we go. CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS ¶¶ ¶¶ © BF-WATCH TV 2021 That's the finale of Mahler's Second Symphony from the film Maestro, a piece that Bernstein conducted and felt passionately about.

And that was Bradley Cooper conducting the London Symphony Orchestra. Cooper wrote, directed, and stars in Maestro. The film's conducting consultant, Yannick Nézet-Ségan, is the music director for the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and principal conductor of the Philadelphia Orchestra. They spoke with Terry last month. Maestro is nominated for seven Academy Awards. We'll hear more after the break.

And later, Justin Chang reviews Io Capitano, an Oscar nominee for Best International Feature. This is Fresh Air. Hi there, it's Tanya Mosley, here to share more about my new series of Fresh Air Plus bonus episodes. I love when he casts his mom in movies. It feels so authentic. I know, you know, she was also in the film Goodfellas, which I also love. I need to get that screenplay, by the way. I don't have that one. For the next few weeks leading up to the Academy Awards,

I'll be talking about all of my favorite movies with my colleague Anne-Marie Baldonado. If you want to hear what movies I love and which screenplays I actually own and use as creative direction, sign up for Fresh Air Plus at plus.npr.org. We're counting down to the Oscars today. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last month with Bradley Cooper and Yannick Nézet-Séguin about the film Maestro. The film has been nominated for seven Academy Awards, including Best Picture, Actor and Actress, Screenplay, and Cinematography. Here's Terry. Bradley Cooper stars as composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein in the new film Maestro, which Cooper also directed and co-wrote. Yannick Nézet-Séguin served as the film's conducting

consultant. He conducts the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, and the Orchestre Métropolitain de Montreal. Maestro focuses on Bernstein's music life and on his private life. He was famous as the conductor of the New York Philharmonic for his Young People's Concerts, his many TV appearances, and for the music he wrote for the Broadway shows On the Town, Wonderful Town, West Side Story, and Candide. Although he was married to the actress Felicia Cohn Montalegre Bernstein, and they had three children together, he was queer and had flirtations and boyfriends during the years he was married. Felicia is played by Carey Mulligan. There's a scene that recreates

a scene from real life in which Felicia and Leonard Bernstein were interviewed on the Edward R. Murrow program, Person to Person, in which people would be interviewed in their homes. And Edward R. Murrow, who was a famous news reporter, especially during World War II, when he recorded from England during the bombing of London, he was the interviewer. So I want to play this scene where Leonard Bernstein and Felicia are being interviewed by him, and it starts with Moreau's first question. Benny, it's always, for me, rather difficult to classify you professionally since you do so many things at the same time. What do you consider your primary occupation?

I guess I'd have to say that my primary occupation is musician. Anything that has to do with music is my province, wouldn't you say? Whether it's composing it or conducting it or teaching it or studying it or playing it. As long as it's music, I like it and I do it. Felicia, do you have any trouble keeping up with Lenny's activities? Well, it gets pretty hard, Ed. He's taken on a great many activities. This season promises to be a very hectic one. Among them, he's writing two musical shows. One of them is an adaptation of Romeo and Juliet, that's

West Side Story, with Jerry Robbins and Arthur Lawrence and wonderfully talented young lyricist Stevie Sondheim. And then he's doing four feature presentations in Omnibus, the CBS television program. And, um... You know my schedule better than I do.

Felicia, what about you? Are you engaged in other things besides acting? Well, it gets pretty hard to do much more than take care of this household. My husband and the children and acting takes the rest of the time that's left over. And memorizing my projects. Well, I can't help that. Lenny, what's the big difference in the life of composer Bernstein and conductor Bernstein?

Well, I suppose it's a difference. It's a personality difference which occurs between any composer versus any, or any creator versus any performer. Any performer, whether it's Toscanini or Tallulah Bankend or whoever it is... leads a kind of public life, an extrovert life, if you will. It's an oversimplified word, but something like that. Whereas a creative person sits alone in this great studio that you see here and writes all by himself and communicates with the world in a very private way and and lives a rather grand inner life rather than a grand outer life and if you carry

around both personalities I suppose that means you become a schizophrenic and that's the end of it. So that's a kind of reproduction, almost word for word, of the actual Edward R. Murrow interview with Leonard Bernstein and his wife Felicia. And what we heard was Bradley Cooper and Carey Mulligan. So I want to get to something that Bernstein says at the end of this, and this is also almost word for word what he said to Edward R. Murrow in the actual interview. You know, in describing his life as a conductor and composer, he talks about how as a conductor it's a very kind of public life, meeting people, having a public face, performing in front of audiences.

But when he's writing, it's a very like introverted life, alone in a room, not being social. And it's hard for him to do that because, you know, he doesn't like being alone very much. I'm wondering if either of you feel similarly, because, you know, Yannick, when you're studying a score, you're not in front of an orchestra. I mean, you're home alone or in your office alone. And Bradley, when you're writing, ditto for you, or even when you're rehearsing alone, when you're just like looking at your lines, you're going through a process that's a very private, you know, alone kind of process. Do you feel the same kind of split in your lives that Bernstein is talking about in that interview?

I remember when I was a very young conductor, coming to this realization that even, you know, I'm not a composer. I mean, not for the moment, at least, you know, maybe one day if I slow down conducting, but, you know, in a way that's not a dissimilar tension between, you know, being the music director as it's illustrated in the film for Bernstein. But, you know, me, even just as a conductor, as you just said, Terry, I realized very young that I should make sure that this is maybe those two very different polar opposites about being always surrounded with people when you conduct. A rehearsal is by definition a lot of people around and you have to entertain these people in some ways in rehearsal. Like I have to keep the energy up.

I have to, you know, be in charge, basically. And then you get back and you don't even have an instrument for you when you study a score to conduct. It's complete silence. You know, a pianist will have his piano, a vocalist will have their voice, and the flute will practice their flute. But, you know, the conductor, it's really in silence. So that scene in the movie resonated very much with me, indeed, about the public and private aspect of this, you know, let alone, I can't imagine what it is, you know, also if you have to compose on top of this. And, you know, as Bernstein says, if, you know, you might become a schizophrenic if you're not careful. Let's take a short break here. I have two guests. Bradley Cooper stars as composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein in the new film Maestro, which Cooper also directed and

co-wrote. Yannick Nézet-Sagin served as the film's conducting consultant. He conducts the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, and the Orchestre Metropolitan de Montreal. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. So the movie is not only about Leonard Bernstein and music, it's about Bernstein's personal life and his relationship with his wife, Felicia Cohn Montalegre Bernstein. So she was born in Costa Rica to an American father and a Costa Rican mother with European ancestry. She moved to Chile when she was eight and then to New York in her 20s. She was an actress. Was she a good actress? What was her acting life like? I would say she was a great actress. You could still see some of her television films

on YouTube. And when she met Lenny, when they were both in their mid-20s, one could argue that she was more famous than he was. And she moved to America under the guise of taking piano lessons from Claudia Rao, because she didn't want her father to know that her real goal was to be an actress. But that was always the case. So you imagine this woman coming from Chile to New York City in her mid-20s, not really knowing many people, and pursuing acting. That's a very powerful statement for a young person from anywhere, let alone that time period.

She knew that he was gay or bisexual before they married. And I keep wondering, like, why did she marry him knowing that his sexual orientation was at least partly not heterosexual? Hopefully the movie is exploring that very question potentially from a viewer and answering it hopefully as well. To me, I certainly understand why she would still do it. Their connection was so solid and it was so integral to both of their DNA when they met and the quality of time that they spend together and what they're able to explore together in every way, in every facet, that when she wrote him that letter, and then we turned that into her proposing to him in the topiary maze of the Tanglewood,

I'm understanding her. I think, why not give it a whirl as she wrote? So that's a quote from a letter? Yes. Let's give it a whirl, as she wrote? So that's a quote from a letter. Yes. Let's give it a whirl. Okay, so the Russian conductor and composer Serge Kuzovitsky, who emigrated to the U.S., recommended to Bernstein that he keep his life and work clean, meaning, I think, like, keep that you're gay or bisexual hidden, knowing it could ruin Bernstein's career.

And he also suggested to Bernstein that he change his name to Burns because Zavitsky was Jewish. He knew all about anti-Semitism and he didn't want Bernstein to be a victim of that. And Bernstein didn't take either part of that advice. What was the extent to which he was out? I think that it was clear within his circle who he was. But more importantly, in terms of the movie, which is really what I could speak to, it was about a character who didn't quite understand why he would ever have to lie about anything. And that's why when Felicia tells him, please lie to our daughter,

it really paralyzes him. A man who's extremely verbose and never fails to be articulate about something finds himself speechless at the end of that scene when he lies to his daughter. Yeah, the daughter has heard rumors that he's gay

and she wants to know if it's true and Felicia tries to tell Bernstein, no, no, it was our choice to be married and live this way. And she says, well, don't you dare tell her. And that kind of kills him because he does believe that there is a way to understand it. And I think that's part of potentially his blinders in his inability to see the pain that he's causing around him. Yannick, how would you describe Bernstein's place in queer history, in queer-like arts history? I feel like we all know in classical music that Leonard Bernstein was gay or bisexual, as you put it, and of course you're absolutely right in saying this, but it took many years to be able to be more open

in a field especially that is traditionally associated with history, things that are really traditional indeed. And therefore, it's a field that it took more time maybe than other fields for people to really feel they could be openly what they wanted to be. And I have to maybe even credit Lenny for, not because he was really out in his life, but actually the fact that he lived this and didn't hide it completely. Well, it allowed people like Michael Tilson Thomas or like me to now live it fully, have husbands. And this is why also one of the many reasons why this film is so important.

It's not so much that it's about a bisexual or gay character, but more about how complex it is. And it's about love. It's about love of a very strong relationship with Felicia. And yet that could also have something else around, not without its pain, of course. And that's also the other layer of the movie. But it's clearly Lenny, to get back to really your question, Terry,

I mean, clearly Lenny is an immensely inspiring figure for pioneering still some of what we see today, including about sexual orientation. There's a scene where Felicia and Leonard Bernstein have a big fight, and she accuses him of being egotistical and showing off on stage and making it seem like only he can appreciate the music so fully, so deeply. And she says by doing that, he diminishes everyone in the audience. And I understand where she's coming from on that. And I wonder how, if at all, you relate to what

she's saying. And Yannick, I want to start with you because you are the conductor on stage who is feeling so deeply, but I'm sure you're not trying to say, I'm feeling this more deeply than you are. But do you think about that kind of response that the audience might be feeling? Maybe it's something that Lenny had been accused of in his lifetime. Because, of course, he was a completely larger-than-life person and therefore larger-than-life conductor. And some of, well, a lot of what happened, and I remember even as a kid reading about him, there was always this sense that, oh, yes, bernstein he's conducting brahms and beethoven but you know he's he's he's a broadway composer

really and then he would compose broadway and film music and people would say oh yeah but actually he's a classical musician you know so it almost felt like he was super famous and appreciated, but also misunderstood. Yeah, misunderstood because of all this. And I believe that perhaps by experiencing the music on the podium in a very intense and non-censored way. You know, there was no boundaries for Bernstein living in the podium. So maybe this could have been something that he had been attacked. I believe that sometimes we can be, as conductors, misunderstood, and especially Lenny, because he was so ahead of his time

by wanting to bridge all this Bradley what's your response to what Felicia says to Lenny? Well just in terms of what he had to go through Bernstein himself you know he was often asked about his antics as you know on the

podium and he would always talk about how it was all about his relationship to the orchestra and to the musicians that he was making music with, and not about him performing for the audience. And I think that's what he was accused of throughout his career. And that instead, it was he didn't even have memory of what he was doing that it wasn't a affected uh gesture at any moment it was always just completely in the music yeah some people thought he was just too performative that it was just like showing off for the audience that's right that it was

somehow peacocking yeah and instead and he even talked about how he blacked out at his debut he has no memory of it. He remembers the applause, and that's where he came to, that he was so inside the music. Well, I can say, really like Bradley just said, that no orchestra in the world would respond to a conductor who would be theatrical in the way of performative for an audience. This is something that many people forget. They think that the conductor is so aware of the audience that they do something for them. But then orchestras smell that miles away, and they stop looking at the

conductor. And then therefore, the conductor cannot have a, or at least not a career in the scope that Bernstein did. I want to thank you both so much for the film and for being with us today to talk about it. Thank you, Bradley Cooper and Yannick Nézet-Séguin. Thank you. Thank you, a pleasure. Bradley Cooper, who co-wrote, directed, and stars in Maestro, and Yannick Nézet-Séguin, the film's

conducting consultant. He conducts the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and the Philadelphia Orchestra. Maestro is up for seven Academy Awards. Let's close with a Bernstein composition from the film, the prologue to West Side Story. side story. Thank you. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 Coming up, Justin Chang reviews another Oscar nominee from Italy for Best International Feature. This is Fresh Air. The Italian director Matteo Garone is best known for his 2008 Naples-set crime drama Gamora, which inspired the TV series of the same title. His latest movie, Io Capitano, is up for an Oscar for Best International Feature. It tells the migrant story of a Sanghalese teenager making his way toward Italy.

The movie opens in theaters this week, and our film critic Justin Chang has this review. One of the interesting things about this year's Academy Awards race for Best International Feature is that in three of the five nominated movies, the filmmakers are working in cultures and languages different from their own. In Perfect Days, the German director Wim Wenders tells a gently whimsical story of a man cleaning public toilets in present-day Tokyo. In the zone of interest, Jonathan Glazer, who's English, immerses us in the chilling day-to-day reality of a Nazi household in 1940s German-occupied Poland. The captivating new drama Io Capitano has the most restless and adventurous spirit of all. Directed by the Italian filmmaker Matteo Garone, it tells the story of Seydou, a 16-year-old who leaves his home in Senegal in search of a better life in

Europe. It begins in the city of Dakar, where Seydou, played by a terrific Senegalese discovery named Seydou Sarr, lives with his mother and younger siblings. Life isn't easy, and money is tight, but there's still a joyful and sustaining sense of community, as we see from a vibrant early scene in which Seydou plays the drums while his mother dances before a crowd. But Seydou has been dreaming of a new life for a while. Despite his mom's protests and warnings about the dangers that lie ahead, he yearns to see the world and earn more money to support his family. And so Seydoux sets out with his cousin, Musa, played by Mustafa Fall, on a trek that will take them through Mali and Niger to Libya, where they hope to catch a boat to Italy. The two cousins have been patiently saving

up money for months, but their expenses mount quickly as they purchase false passports, bribe cops to avoid getting arrested, and pay for an extremely bumpy ride through the Sahara desert. At one point, the cousins must complete the desert journey on foot with several travelers, not all of whom survive, and Seydoux realizes, for the first time, that he himself may not live to see his destination. Many more horrors await, including a terrifying stint in a Libyan prison, and a stretch of forced labor at a private home. But while the movie is harrowing, it also has an enchanted, fable-like quality that I resisted at first, before finally surrendering to. Garone is an erratic but gifted filmmaker, with a superb eye

and an ability to straddle both gritty realism and surreal fantasy. He came to international prominence in 2008 with Gomorrah, a brutally unsentimental panorama of organized crime in present-day Italy. But then in 2015, he made Tale of Tales, a fantastical compendium of stories about ogres, witches, and sea monsters. In a strange way, Io Capitano splits the difference between these two modes. This is a grueling portrait of a migrant's journey, but it also unfolds with the epic classicism of a hero's odyssey. In one audacious, dreamlike sequence, Seydoux, trying to help an older woman who's collapsed from exhaustion in the desert, imagines her magically levitating alongside him. The scene works not just because of its shimmering

visual beauty, juxtaposing the woman's green dress against the golden sands, but also because of what it reveals about Seydoux's deeply compassionate spirit. Saar, a musician making his acting debut, gives a wonderfully open-hearted performance, and it rises to a new pitch of emotional intensity in the movie's closing stretch when the meaning of the title, which translates as Me, Captain, becomes clear. There's something poignant about the way

Garone chooses to approach his home country, Italy, through an outsider's eyes. Seydoux's journey may be long and difficult, but cinema, Io Capitano reminds us, is a medium of thrillingly open borders. Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. Do you ever write an important email and are later alarmed to find that although you were sure you sent it, it's still in drafts? Do you ever walk into your kitchen only to find that you've forgotten why you're there? On Monday's Fresh Air, we talk about how the brain forgets and remembers with neuroscientist Charan Ranganath, author of Why We Remember. I hope you can join us.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld, and Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are conducted and edited by Amy Sallet, Phyllis Myers, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Teresa Madden, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelly, and Susan Nakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. For Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.