Fresh Air - Broadway legend André De Shields doesn't walk, he floats

Episode Date: July 21, 2026

At the age of 80, Broadway legend André De Shields now starring in "CATS: The Jellicle Ball." He won a Tony in 2019 for his performance in "Hadestown," and co-stars in the new film of last year’s London revival. He made his Broadway debut in the title role of the 1975 original production of "The Wiz." De Shields describes himself as Afro Queer, a longtime HIV survivor, and unreformed hippie, who grew up in inner city Baltimore. He’s always gone his own way in how he thinks, speaks, dresses and moves. "I don’t rush anywhere. I walk slowly. My reputation is that Andre DeShields doesn’t walk, he floats." He spoke with Terry Gross. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

This is fresh air. I'm Terry Gross. When Andre DeShield's name is mentioned, it's often preceded by the words Broadway legend or The Great. He won a Tony for his performance in the musical Hades Town in 2019, and the show won seven other Tonys, including Best Musical. Stars of the original Broadway cast, including DeShields, reunited for a revival of the show last year in London. That production was filmed and will be released in theaters on Friday. Right now, Deschields is one of the stars of Cats the Jellicle Ball, which won three Tonys last month. It uses the same songs as Cats, but with different beats, and is set in the queer underground ballroom culture of the 80s. That show is closing August 8th. De Shields is especially remarkable, considering he's 80 and has been HIV positive since 1991. He grew up in Baltimore in what he describes as the innermost part of Baltimore's inner city, and figured getting an education would be key to getting out. He earned his BA in English literature at the University of Wisconsin in Madison and an MBA in African American Studies from NYU. He started his career in experimental

theater in Chicago. When his theater group performed in New York, he decided to stay. He soon got cast as The Wizard in the 1975 original Broadway cast of The Wiz, which was produced a few years before the movie. He was nominated for a Tony for his performance in the show, Ain't Misbehavin, which was built around music associated with Fats Waller, and he won an Emmy when it was produced for a 1982 NBC broadcast. He was nominated for another Tony for his performance in the Fulmante. He's performed in a wide range of dramas, including King Lear, waiting for Godot and death of his salesmen. Let's start with Andre DeShields singing the opening number of Hades town, in which he sets up the story and introduces the characters. The show tells a version of

the Greek myths about Hades, Hermes, Orpheus, and Eurydice. DeShields plays Hermes, the god who escorts the souls of the dead to the underworld, which is ruled by Hades. Here's DeShields from the original Broadway cast recording. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm Mm-hmm Chuka-chika-chika-chika Checka checka checka checka

Checka checka Once upon the time there was a railroad line Don't I swear, brother, don't I swear It was the road to hell It was hard time It was a world of God And man It's an old sound

It's a bad way It's an old sound Andre DeShields Welcome to Fresh Air Congratulations on all the things that you're doing now I just think it's great Did you ever believe that Despite having being diagnosed with HIV in 1991

and believing that you had it considerably before that, but you just didn't have the diagnosis, that you'd not only live to see age 80, but that you'd be in a new film version of a musical you'd won a Tony for, and at the same time you'd be on Broadway as one of the stars of cats, the Jellicle Ball. The answer to that question is yes. And my answer to that is no.

I believed from my very first conscious, thought that my destiny would rise up and meet me. So when my mother shared with me that her lifelong dream had been to be a chorus girl, and that was the term she used, she didn't say dancer, she said chorus girl. And my father shared with me that he had always wanted to be a singer. He had a beautiful ten of voice, but the closest he got to that dream coming true was to sing in the church choir. Those two bits of knowledge only reaffirmed

what I had been dreaming about since the day I was born. I wanted to sing. I wanted to dance. Now I can look at it and understand, Oh, wow, it's been bequeathed to me by those X and Y chromosomes that was responsible for my conception. HIV when you had it in 91, it was a death sentence. You had two partners who died of AIDS and friends as well, cast members who you work with. So you really thought you were going to be on Broadway at the age of 80?

I didn't think I was going to be on Broadway at the age of 80, but I did know that I would be alive. And I did know that I would continue on my path. And I had already, in 1980, before there was an acronym, HIV, that I had had an infection of my lymph nodes and not, Any one of three doctors on two continents could answer the question, what is this? Now, in 1979, when I had gone to London for the first time to perform in Ain't Misbehavin, there was already a friend of mine who caught a cold, and three days later, he was a dead. So the mystery was already in the air. How can someone die from a cold? There's something going on that nobody understands. So when my lymph nodes blew up in 1980 in Los Angeles,

on the tour of Ain't Misbehavin, I clocked it immediately. Whatever that mystery is, I'm beginning to decode it. I'm beginning to understand it. So you were symptomatic for 11 years before you were diagnosed? Yes. It's a long time. And when I finally got the clinical diagnosis, I had 16 T cells. So I was near death, but I knew I wasn't going to die.

Wow. You know, Hades Town is... is about the souls of the dead. So seeing Hades Town made me think about the stories that human beings have told themselves over the centuries about why we are living and why we die. And the Greek myths are, you know, early examples of that. When you did Hades Town, when you were performing in it,

and when you went back, which I imagine you did, to read the myths that Hades Town draws on. Didn't it make you think about that, that the stories we've told ourselves about what happens after we die, how they've changed over time? I did exactly that. And I also, there's an African proverb

which is based on a bird, and the bird is called asan kofa. It's a flightless bird, and it is known to walk deliberately forward, but every once in a while it looks over its shoulder. The lesson there is, if you do not know where you're coming from, where you've been, you can't possibly know where you're headed, where you're going.

And when I was asked to embody the role of Hermes, not only did that proverb come to mind, but all of the close calls that I had experienced in my life came to mind, and I felt prepared to take on this role. Hermes is the creature that accompanies humans when they have to cross the river Styx to visit in Hades. You can't get there if Hermes does not accompany you. How have you changed how you can perform on stage at the age of 80?

No one is as limber, but you still move with such grace. You're absolutely correct about what we think about the human body and the human spirit. Let's talk about the physical part of that. Yes, Mr. Arthur has visited me. I've got arthritis. My knees are compromised. My joints ache. But I've got a doctor.

His name is Dr. Footlights. Her name is Dr. Footlights. And when I stand on that stage, and when those lights come up, and when the audience greets me, the pain disappears. So I want to ask you about cats, the jellicle ball. It's set in the queer ballroom culture,

where there are drag competitions in different categories relating to, like, singing, dance, costumes. Were you a part of that at all, either as a participant or an observer? I was not a part of the bald culture, as we know it here in New York, and we give it a birth decade of the 80s. But I did know a phenomenon called the Jewel Box Review, and it toured the Chitland Circuit. I'm talking about the middle to late 50s in the last century. And the Chitland Circuit was like a circuit of like black theaters.

It started like in the vaudeville era, I think. Exactly. And in Baltimore, the theater was called the Royal. And of course, in the 60s, urban renewal raised it. And the cultural spine of the city died. However, I was able to see entertainment like my first Motown review at the Royal. I was able to see Moms Mabley at the Royal. I was able to see Flip Wilson at the Royal.

I was also able to see the Jewel Box Review, which was a company of men who dressed as women, and they were gorgeous. At that time, they were called transvestites, which comes from, I think, the French word, Le Travesty, but it's all about the idea that life is never what you think it is. Nothing is what it seems to be.

And seeing the jewel box review was part of my education as an entertainer. What did it mean to you? Seeing people who drag performers. It meant that fantasy had to be in my toolbox. It meant that what we do in our... our actual lives is what I as a performer must do on the stage. I must fool people. I must pretend. The ancient Greek word for actor means hypocrite. We must tell a lie in order to get through the 24-hour drudgery of each day. Did sing drag performers add to your desire and ability to

dress in very non-conforming ways with like bright colors and like short shorts walking the streets of Manhattan. You talked about how people would like kind of like walk in the opposite direction. You look, you were so outstanding looking that it was kind of almost scary to some people. Yes, yes. Like so eccentric looking. Did that contribute to you feeling that you wanted to and were able to wear whatever you wanted to and call attention to yourself in a very colorful and fashionable way, original way. Exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. But now, Tara, you and I have only spoken for a few minutes, and we don't really know one another. But I'll bet you already know that I'd like to wax poetic. and wearing bright colors and saying pay attention to me, even to the point of deliberately slowing my gates, I don't rush anywhere.

I walk slowly. My reputation is that Andre DeShield doesn't walk. He floats. Now, but this is because each of us, if we want to do something as commonplace as be happy and if we want to do something as exceptional as being called a legend, then one really must commit to being his best self.

What are some of the things you've seen change on Broadway over the years? Because you started on Broadway in the 70s, And also as a black actor, there aren't necessarily a whole lot of opportunities now either for black actors, but there's more than there were. Yet you managed to be in two of the shows with Black cast, Ait Misfiven and The Wiz. Well, you've explained it in a nutshell. In the early 70s, Broadway was an inhospitable terrain for black actors and black audience. and with the advent of the whiz that all changed. Part of the change had to do with the decision by the producer Ken Harper to take some of the money and invested in live action TV commercials

so that we could lean into the living room and speak to our brethren who is sitting on the living. the couch and say to them, don't sit there and become a couch potato. There's something that represents you playing on Broadway. You no longer have any reason to avoid it. You have a reason to come and become part of it. So the whiz opened that door for the growth of a black audience on Broadway and an invitation to black artists to perform on Broadway. And we took that lesson from the brilliant film that starred Judy Garland, The Wizard of Oz. But I certainly identified with her huge vulnerability,

which made her a tremendous lesson in how to get an order. of people to pay attention. Now, that storyline was the exclusive world of white actors and white audiences. But the magic that Ken Harper brought to the production was to take that line of truth out of Dorothy's mouth, which is there's no place like home

and put it in the mouth of a little colored girl who sang in her church's choir. And once you do that, then it becomes universal. And that is what the whiz should be remembered for. Your father, who wanted to be a singer, sang in church, how churchy was your family? and was that your first stage? The family wasn't very churchy,

but they were pious people. They read their Bibles on a daily basis, and everyone prayed for me, and I didn't have to wonder why. I knew that I was the blackest of the black sheep in the family, and my mother particularly would, take me to revival meetings, and when the preacher would ask for people to come down to the makeshift pulpit, people who wanted to know Jesus, my mother would always look at me, and that was encouragement enough.

And I would go down and I would get on my knees, and I would, in quotes, accept. Christ as my Savior. Not only did he please the preacher, but it pleased my mother. But it wasn't real? Oh, of course not. And I'm not making fun of it. I'm just saying I was being a good child. I was pleasing my mother. But I knew I wanted to sing the devil's music. I wanted to go rip-roaring through life, not cast caution to the win, but have a great time being myself. Well, we need to take a break here. So let's continue this very soon.

If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre DeShields, and he won a Tony for his performance in the musical Hades Town. He plays the role again in the new movie of the show, which opens Friday. He's currently on Broadway and Cats the Jellicle Ball. We'll continue our interview after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross.

Let's get back to my interview with Andre De Shields. He wanted Tony for his performance in the musical Hades Town. He plays the role again in a new movie of the show, which opens Friday. He's currently on Broadway and Cats the Jellicle Ball, which closes August 8th. He played The Wizard in the original Broadway, Broadway cast of The Whiz. He was nominated for Tonys for his performances in the Fat Swalowler musical Ain't Misbehavin and the musical adaptation of the film, The Full Monty. Your parents both wanted to be in showbiz,

your mother, a chorus girl, your father, a singer, and you felt that you kind of inherited their dreams that they couldn't fulfill, and you fulfilled them. But what was their reaction when they learned that you were really serious about being a performer. Did they encourage you? Ultimately, I was encouraged.

In the beginning, when people would ask me, Andre, what are you going to do when you grow up? And my response was, I'm going to be a star. And they looked at me as if I had two heads. And then I managed to leave the neighborhood and be the first of that community to attend college, and they started to believe

that I was a miracle maker. And while I was a junior in college, the head of the drama department came to me and said, are you in the drama department? I said, no, I'm studying English. Why? Do you want to know? He said, well, I think this campus

would benefit from a production of Lorraine Hansberry's Raisin in the Sun. But there aren't enough black students, let alone in the drama department for me to do this. But I can do it by inviting people from the town to join us. I just can't find the boy to play Walter Lee younger, and I would like you to do that. Now, all my young life I kept close to.

to my vest that I wanted to be an actor. And here was the blessing being offered to me. So members of my family took the bus all the way out to Wilmington, Ohio. Not the entire family, but enough of the family to see me at the age of 19, perform as Waltfully younger in the Raisin in the Sun. and that's when it happened. Wow, Andre, you really have talent. And then the support began to grow.

What do you think the drama teacher saw in you that made him or her realize that you belonged on stage? First of all, he saw a black male student. Second of all, he saw a young man who carried himself as if he were a king, which I still do. My mission, my journey is to discover the throne to which I know I am heir. So that's what I carry in my mind, in my heart, and in my viscera. As I walked on the quad when I was 19 years old at Wilmington College in Ohio,

and that drama teacher, he witnessed the drama. And he knew this young man has it in him to play Walter Lee Younger, who had the hugest chip on his shoulder, Walter Lee Young as the character in Brazen in the Sun. And at 19, by playing that character, I was able to dissolve the chip that was on my shoulder. What was the chip that was on your shoulder? I'm a black man

and I'm tired of being taken advantage of you did this to me I can't get anywhere and it's your fault that's the chip I can get anywhere I want and it's my doing and what dissolved that chip was embodying a character

who couldn't get rid of exactly couldn't get rid of it and seeing how that hurt him exactly That's essential to Raisin and the Son. Walter Lee Younger, who's supposed to be the man of the family, blames everything on Mr. Whitey.

And the mother says to him, oh, stop. One of the people who inspired you to become a performer made you think maybe you could really do it was John Bubbles when you saw him in the 1943 musical film cabin in the sky, which has such an incredible cast. It's like Ethel Waters, Lina Horn, Louis Armstrong, the Duke Ellington Orchestra and John Bubbles. Eddie Rochester Anderson, whom we all know from the Jack Benny Show.

Yeah. Yeah. So let me play a little bit of John Bubbles from that film, and then we'll talk about what this meant to you. And in this film, he's in a nightclub, and the Duke Ellington Orchestra is backing him up. He walks in like really dapper, like elegant suit. He has a cane kind of like Fred Astaire when he was dancing, and everybody's like admiring him, and then he breaks out into song. I got my shirt from a silver lining. I got my cane from an old old tree.

And that is just the reason why the folks all nicknamed me, just me. my hair's curly And because My teeth are pearly And just because I always well smile And suits to dress up In the latest style

Gee, I'm glad I'm living Why take troubles All with a smile Just because my color is safe So listening back to that's why they call me Shah. So listening back to that, Andre DeShield, what memories does it bring back and how did it inspire you? Now, Terry Gross, this is why among radio journalists,

you are the goddess. Oh, thank you. Because that song, Shine, which is a race song, was my audition song when I came to New York. It's how I got The Whiz, it's how I got A. M. Behavon. Really? This is what you say? Yes.

And only recently have I... I didn't stop using it, but I don't need it any longer because now people know who André Deschield's is. Why did you choose it? And what do you think of the lyric? I chose it because of... the lyrics. Now, you played from like the middle of the song. Yes, because I want to some of the

slower part and some of the faster part where the tempo opens up. But the song opens with a note that John Bubbles sings, and it's as if he's never going to stop hitting that note. and you are amazed by this man singing this long tenor note. And just at the moment when you think he's going to stop, he goes into what is essentially his biography. And I thought, wow, that's exactly what I need. Another tool in my toolbox. There's a song I'm trying to think of which one it is where you hold a note excessively long.

Well, have you seen Cats the Jelical Ball? When I make my entrance as Old Deuteronomy, I sustain a note, and I know this because people have timed it for 44 seconds. Whoa, that's a long time. That's a long time. But I learned that from John Bubbles, from watching Cabin in the Sky, in the darkened atmosphere of the Royal Theater, where the Chitland Circuit would visit. Every performance in Cabin in the Sky was superlative,

and Vincent Manelli knew that, which is why these folks were cast, because they were the best that's a good one. Manelli, yes. Judy Garland's husband, the father of Liza Manelli. Do you see the connection? The great vulnerability from Judy Garland, which she gave to Liza Manelli, who is the daughter of Vincent Manelli, who directed the film that circumcised my heart? Yeah, nice connection. I mean, it's an interesting connection. I've never heard somebody say circumcise my heart. I'm just thinking about that for a minute. But you know what I mean, don't you?

I do. Yeah. Take away that which is unnecessary and leave you with the gold. Do you still sing that song? And would you maybe want to sing it for us now? Oh, yes. Yes. You're making a black man blush right now.

I know you can't see it. Whenever you're ready. What is there about me that? What is there about you what? Makes me feel well dress. Whatever that is, that's what you is. The same old clothes, shoes and hat. The same old thing.

rearrange Oh It's very plain to see Just how this happened To be I put some polish On my sky piece I turned my shoe string into a tie

I cut the corners off the edge of my coat So they wouldn't fly. I got my smile from a silver lining. I got my cane from an old old tree. I is just the reason why they call shine. You have a powerful voice. and you sang the part that we didn't play at the beginning

that you were talking about, so I'm really glad you did that. My guest is Andre De Shields. He's currently on Broadway in Cats, the Jellicle Ball, and in the film version of the musical Hades Town, which will be in movie theaters this Friday. More after a break, this is fresh air. This is fresh air. Let's get back to my interview with Andre De Shields.

He wanted Tony for his performance in the musical Hades Town. He plays the role again. in a new movie of the show, which opens Friday. And he's currently on Broadway in Cats, the Jellicle Ball. So when you started in theater, it was experimental theater. The theater company performed in New York. You decided to stay. And then you got the role in The Wiz as the Wizard of Oz.

That's incredible. You got such an important part so quickly. And the timing was perfect because it was like a black cast. And there weren't many black actors on stage. So like what an incredible door to open for you at exactly the right time. Exactly. And you literally begged for the chance to audition for the whiz. You've done your research, huh?

And your costume that you wore on stage is in the Smithsonian Museum of African American History. Why don't you describe it? Because obviously it's worthy of the Smithsonian, so describe it for us? Now, remember, the whiz opened on Broadway on January 5, 1975. It was the peak of the decade of permissiveness, particularly for men who thought of themselves as beautiful. So we were wearing tight, bell-bottomed jeans. We were wearing short sleeve shirts. We were wearing these huge Jimmy Hendricks, afros. We were wearing jewelry, bracelets, big rings, and wearing platform shoes.

So that's exactly what I invested in the character of The Wiz. He wears a white jumps. suit that looks as if it were painted on him as if he were out of a Marvel comic book. He has a long creptachine cape. He's wearing five-inch white platform boots, and he is wearing character makeup that makes him unidentifiable so that when he's wearing, And he is finally revealed as just another loser. Another fraud, another comment. Yes, yes.

There's a great impact on not only Dorothy and her three friends, but the entire audience. So you're in The Whiz, which is pretty incredible. And then just like three years after being in The Whiz, your cast in A Ain't Misbehaving, a musical review built around songs identified with Fats Waller. So let's hear a little bit of you singing from that. And most of the songs are sung by, you know, one or two other characters.

It's a five-person cast, and some songs have all five of you. So I'm going to play part of the title song, It Misbehavin. And this is a part where you solo. We'll pick it up right before that. Like Jack Horner in the corner Don't go nowhere What do I care Your kiss says I were the waiting for

Belba-ba-ba-ba-bele-le-me I'm home about age just me and my neighbor's radio I can't afford one I'm saving my love for you Saved my life just for you Oh shucks daddy I love it when you move Did you already love Fats Waller's music when you were cast in the show? No, I wasn't a lover of Fats Waller's music, but I love the period.

The period that he performed in? Yes, the Haths, 40s. Harlem Renaissance. Yeah. The literature to you? Yes. And curiously, it is still that part of American. history that is identified with black excellence.

When indeed, when February comes around the shortest and coldest month of the year, and we celebrate black heritage, we have to remind people that black history is American history. And the Harlem Renaissance was just one of its peaks. of its peaks. Well, I'm going to take a pause and reintroduce you here because I need to take a break. So let me do that. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre De Shields.

He's currently on Broadway and Cats, The Jellicle Ball. He won a 2019 Tony for his performance in the musical Hades Town as Hermes. He's in the new film of last year's London Revival that reunited stars from the original Broadway show. It opens on Friday. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air.

Let's get back to my interview with Andre De Shields. He wanted Tony for his performance in the musical Hades Town. He plays the role again in a new movie of the show, which opens Friday. And he's currently on Broadway in Cats, The Jellicle Ball. I want to change the subject and go back to the 90s when you were diagnosed with HIV in 91, and your partner, 17 years, died of AIDS. And then three years after that, a partner of two years died of AIDS. Did you take care of them when they were really sick?

I did. I became the nurse. What was that like for you? I'll share this with you. My first partner had been told by his doctor that if you ever run a fever of 104 or higher, you must immediately check yourself into the ER, the emergency room.

Not too long after that. It happened. And I said to him, Chico, you have a fever of 104. You recall what the doctor said. Do you want me to take you to the ER? And he said no. And I said, well, what do you want to do?

And he said, I want to die in your arms. simple as that. Did that happen? Yes. Was it that night? No, it was sometime later. And it was in the hospital.

What was your reaction when he said that? Was it to try to convince him no go to the ER? I'll be with you? No, no, no, no, no. He was compasementous. I asked him a question. He responded. And I acted accordingly until it was impossible to do so when I had to make decisions for him.

How did it change you to be surrounded by the death of people who you loved, the death of people who were very close friends and who were colleagues on stage? I became a missionary, and I became an advocate. and now AIDS, or at least HIV, is a condition that one can live with. I have for 45 years. Which is remarkable. But what had to happen in this process,

which is why I said I became a missionary, is that not everyone is infected with HIV, but everyone is affected by HIV. And that's because we have criminalized it. And what we have to do is remove that stigma. So we're recording this on a Thursday, July 16th, and Catch Jellicle Ball, and you're one of the stars, that closes on August 8th.

So there are not many performances left. What do you do during intermissions when you're doing a Broadway show? First things first, go to the bathroom. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I was touring with The Me Nobody Knows, one of the performances was done at the civic stage of the Chicago Opera House. And Catherine Hepburn was there doing. doing Coco.

And she allowed us to meet her at one point because we had been asking our stage manager, why is it so cold in the theater? We shared space. And he thought, oh, well, this is the time for you to meet Catherine Hepburn. And two things we learned. Don't perform in a temperature

higher than 45 degrees. And even if you don't have to go, go. So during intermission, go to the bathroom, whether you have the urge or not. You have a performance tonight, so I'm going to let you go in a couple of minutes. How are you feeling about these final performances? Are you savoring like every minute?

Well, it didn't take the announcement of its closing, to savor every minute. That happens eight times a week because the people who are coming to see cats, the jellical ball, are coming to celebrate, not their own liberation, because we've arrived there some time ago.

But that, finally, there's this intersection of history and evolution that allows it to be above ground. Andre de Chilis, it's been wonderful talking with you. Thank you so much. It's the highlight of my day. I'm going to share it with everyone at the theater.

They love for me to bring these kinds of rare opportunities into their lives. Well, I wish you all the best. Thank you so much. It was my pleasure. Thank you. Andre De Shields plays Hermes in a new film version of the stage musical Hades Town. It's the same role who won a Tony for seven years ago in the original Broadway production. The film opens in theaters this Friday. Tomorrow on fresh air, our guest will be New Yorker staff writer Gia Tolentino. She coined the term Instagram face. Now she's back with a warning.

Plastic surgery has become so pervasive and undetectable, it's quietly changing what we think a real human face looks like. Her article are a plastic surgery night. nightmare delves into what happens when we can no longer trust our own eyes. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanishefsky. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Henry Boldinato, Lauren Crenzel, Teresa Madeline. Madhann, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Sizh Yacundi, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper.

Roberta Shorak directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.