Fresh Air - Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

When Ronny Chieng got a job as a correspondent and then anchor at The Daily Show, he kept the news to himself. "I didn't want to brag," the Malaysia-born comic says. "I just wanted to do the work." Chieng now costars in the series Interior Chinatown, and has a new Netflix comedy special, Love to Hate It.Also, Ken Tucker reflects on the best pop music of 2024.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey, it's Peter Sagal, the host of Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. Now, if you like Wait, Wait and you're looking for another podcast where the hosts take self-deprecating jabs at themselves and invite important guests on who have no business being there, then you should check out NPR's How to Do Everything. It's hosted by two of the minds behind Wait, Wait, who literally sometimes put words in my mouth. Find the How to Do Everything podcast wherever you are currently

listening to me go on about it. This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is comic actor and political satirist Ronnie Chang. He became a correspondent for the satirical new show The Daily Show in 2015 after Trevor Noah asked him to audition. Now Chang is one of the rotating correspondents who anchor the show. He also co-stars in the new Hulu series in, Interior Chinatown. He had a memorable funny scene in Crazy Rich Asians as a wealthy investment banker in Singapore. Ronnie Chang has a new Netflix comedy special called Love to Hate It, which starts streaming tomorrow. He brings an international perspective to his comedy. He was born in Malaysia, where his grandparents emigrated from China.

From age three to seven, he lived in Manchester, New Hampshire, where his parents attended college. Then the family returned to Malaysia, which is basically across the bridge from Singapore, so he spent a lot of time there. He attended college in Australia, where he got his BA in finance and his law degree,

while also doing stand-up comedy. Let's start with a clip from his new comedy special. This is from a section about how he and his wife aren't ready for children, but his wife had her eggs harvested for possible future use. He's imagining what his child, if he ever has one, might say to him. Daddy, daddy, when I grow up, I want to be a stand-up comedian. Just like you.

You just feel the Chinese coming, all right? Stand-up comedy? Are you out of your mind? That's not even a real job. Like what do you think is going to happen? You're just going to run around America and tell jokes to strangers who don't give a f*** about your mental health? And even if you do, somehow manage to overcome the odds and make it to even a semi-professional level. Don't give a f*** about your mental health! And even if you do, somehow manage to overcome the odds and make it to even a semi-professional level as a stand-up comedian.

Do you think there's any chance in hell you'd be funnier than me? Daddy's a borderline arena acting some markets. Have you seen my IMDB page? I'm in everything. I will crush your career. Fugari, your mother and I just spent a fortune to make an A grade blastocyst for them to become a B grade comedian. I will never watch anything you do.

Go to law school! Is what my father said to me. Renny Cheng, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. And I'd like to note the contrast between the yelling of that clip and how calm the rest of the interview will be.

What else did your father say to you when you found out you wanted to be a comedian? He said no white person will ever buy a ticket to go watch it. Wow. Did you think that that might be true? No, I didn't think that was true. But I didn't tell him I was going to go do it. I went to go do it. And then he found out like after I was, I've been doing stand-up comedy for about two years

and then he found out and then, you know, and he was trying to protect me, you know. He was worried. He was worried about what was going to happen, you know, what my future was going to be. And then later on, he got behind it. Nevertheless, nevertheless, when you were on The Daily Show and you started on The Daily Show, you didn't tell your mother. No, I didn't tell them I got hired on the show. What were you afraid of?

Um, no, it wasn't so much afraid, it was that I didn't want to brag about small achievements. I just wanted to do the work. I didn't want to tell them that I joined this institution which quite frankly they didn't really know about anyway and make it sound as though I made it quote-unquote, you know I mean? So I genuinely... Well you kind of had it, it's a big achievement, that's not a small achievement. Sure, but I don't know, I think the work comes first, you know, getting the job is one thing but then can you do the job? And so it honestly just came out of kind of humility of like,

oh yeah, I'm on The Daily Show, but it doesn't mean I've done anything yet. So why tell them, you know, like it, my philosophy was like, like just do the job and then maybe they'll hear good things about you. And then that will be the, you know what I mean? Like I didn't need the flowers from them at that point. You deprive them of bragging rights. Quite frankly, if you want to talk about bragging rights for them, once I started doing decent work and people started liking what I was doing,

then they would go up to them and be like, hey, your son is on The Daily Show. So, you know, which I think is better than you coming out and trying to brag about something that, you know, at that point I hadn't even been on screen yet, know I'm not sure how how popular The Daily Show is in Singapore Malaysia so right so I'd rather just do the work and then you know hopefully people like it. A line that really stands out to me in the bit that we just heard is you know why why would you do that why would you become

on Comet? Why would you become? Why would you make jokes to people who don't care about your mental? Yeah, did your father say that or did you could just come up with that? No, no to be clear to be clear that that's a bit My dad never but why but why did that occur to you to write that like to people who don't care about your mental? Health, I thought that was very funny Anybody put it that way. So the premise of the bit is that if I have a kid what's gonna happen you know if they want to do stand-up comedy and I realize like I'm just like my parents.

Like even me who has done stand-up comedy professionally if my kid wants to do it I'd be like my dad too. I'd be like, why are you doing this? This is crazy Especially me knowing what in what's involved in stand-up comedy all the more that I'm like Are you sure you want to do this and one of the one of the things I know about comedy that is I think quite a difficult thing to overcome is overcoming people's apathy and And their lack of concern for your mental health. Which, by the way, is the reason, is part of the reason why I never told anyone I was doing comedy, not my friends or my parents or my family, because I wanted to test it

in that environment. I wanted to test my comedy in an environment where nobody cared about you, because I felt like if I could make these people who didn't care about me at all laugh, maybe this could be a job for me. So you grew up mostly in Malaysia, which is one bridge away from Singapore. You compared it to me to how New York is to New Jersey. Yes, yeah. Or how Philadelphia is to New Jersey on the opposite side. Sure. I'll let you guess which one's New York, which one's New Jersey in this analogy.

But yes, it's just a bridge across that is called the Causeway. People cross the bridge from Johor Bahru, Malaysia to Singapore every day. Every morning people wake up in Malaysia, go to work in Singapore and come back braving the traffic and the fumes and the immigration. So were you exposed to much stand-up in Malaysia or Singapore? No, I was not. The stand-up I was exposed to was in New Hampshire when my parents would play Seinfeld, the sitcom. And so you would see Seinfeld do stand-up in his interstitials, right? In between the narrative, he'd do stand-up. And I remember asking my mom, like, hey, and

that was the first time I saw, I even knew that that could be an art form, just standing there and telling jokes with no other props and you know, it's just you and a microphone. And I told my mom like, hey, I want to try that someday. And my mom was like, oh, okay, cool. And I was like four years old. You said you were introduced to Jewish people from Seinfeld. Yes.

Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld. So what did it make you think Jewish people were like? To be honest, when we watched it in, when we were watching in Malaysia and Singapore, we think that they're white people. At least for me anyway, I didn't realize like they were like a special type of ethnicity. I thought they were just a type of white person. And so when you're watching it, you're like, you get little samples of Jewishness in it, right? They'll drop a Yiddish word, they'll have a Hanukkah, they'll have little things here and there where you slowly start to be like, oh, these, I think they're

different to white American people. And we didn't have any stereotypes. So I just thought they were New Yorkers. You know what I mean? I didn't think like, oh, this is Jewish behavior or this is a Jewish joke. Or I just thought, oh, these are New Yorkers. That's how New Yorkers talk. Until I came here, I realized, oh, it's its own thing.

Your new comedy special was filmed in Honolulu. Yes. Where Doogie- Kameloha. Yes, thank you. This is like a Doogie Howser adjacent series. Yes. It was a reboot, yeah. Yeah, a reboot that you were in and you're very popular there. Well, I... Or so you say.

Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. And you say you have a lot of MAGA friends there. Yes. And on The Daily Show, you spent a lot of time satirizing Trump. Yes. So how do you get around arguing about politics with your mega friends? That's a great question. I think, first of all, one, we might be in media silos. So the stuff I say on The Daily Show might not actually ever reach my mega friends because we're all so siloed in our media consumption. That's one. And then two, I think that decent people have a sense of humor about things, you know? So I wouldn't take the comment section as reality in terms of what the reaction is to a clip in the comment section from MAGA people about political clip.

I don't necessarily think they would do react that way in real life face to face. And third of all, Hawaii is a very different vibe. Like Hawaii people know how to get along for the most part. I think in Hawaii, they know how to put community before themselves, which is very un-American by the way. This idea that in Hawaii, everyone's very generous and you get more than you give in Hawaii if you come with the right energy.

And so I like to think that in Hawaii, I always try to come with the right energy. I won't be so presumptuous to say that I always manage to nail it, but I think I come with the right energy and I think the locals and the Hawaiians they respond to that so I you know they can be you know hardcore mega people but they you know what they're totally cool with me as far as I know. You say you love America this is the country that puts showbiz above everything. Oh you're quoting my special Yeah. And then you get paid for saying F the president. And then money comes in and you say, if you did this in Malaysia, jail. Yeah.

But now Trump has an enemies list. He's threatening retribution and he's trying to revoke TV network broadcast licenses. Yes. So how do you feel about insulting Trump now? Those are all very concerning. Don't get me wrong. I think if he does any of that, it is upsetting and subverts the legal process in many ways,

in some ways more blatant than others. My answer to that is we had four years of him and The Daily Show was making fun of him every day during those four years. And essentially nothing happened. So just going off of history and past evidence, which is all I kind of have to go by right now, is that kind of, you know, for me that's kind of a sign of how it's going to be, you know? His bluster versus his actual actions. I reserve the right to change my opinion if we all end up in jail. If we all end up in jail, then I will probably be wrong.

But maybe I'm just, this is just wishful thinking on my part. But yeah, he said a lot of concerning things about the law. But I think ultimately I believe in American institutions. I believe in checks and balances. You know, I believe that the institutions. I believe in checks and balances, you know, I believe that the whole entire founding of America was geared around having a weak Federal executive who is unable to kind of use the government to go after citizens individually I think that's the whole premise of America. And so because of that, I'm a bit more hopeful

Well, I hope I hope you're right. Yeah, I'm a bit more hopeful. Well, I hope you're right. Yeah, I hope I'm right too. By the way, what do I know? I'm just a comic, just making dick jokes. But that's what I hope and that's what I believe. And that's why I'm still here. Let's hear a clip from The Daily Show. And this is from the day after Kamala Harris conceded.

So it's two days after election day. And you say Trump's promised a peaceful transfer of power. And then you say, let's hear it for the bare minimum of democracy. And here's the rest of the clip. So I guess American democracy still works as long as the guy who likes overthrowing the government wins the election because then he won't overthrow the government. So with the transfer happening, we're gonna be talking about Trump again

every day for another four years, I guess. And I, for one, did not think that when I came out of the jungles of Malaysia to do comedy, that I would be making jokes about Donald Trump every day for 13 years straight. 13 years. I don't talk about anybody as much as that. I don't talk about my mom as much as I talk about this guy. I don't talk about my wife as much as I talk about this guy.

My wife thinks I'm having an emotional affair with him. I'm going to be talking about this guy on my f***ing deathbed, okay, which I assume will be in three years when he somehow brings back the bubonic plague. And you might be sitting at home saying, well Ronnie, why don't you just shut the f**k up about Trump? Well for the same reason CNN doesn't shut the f**k up about him. Money! Lots and lots of money!

So let's get these dollars right now and get back to Donald Trump. That's not really true about the money, I'm sure. Partially. There's some truth to that. Okay, so you got on The Daily Show after Trevor Noah became the anchor and you knew him from performing at the same comedy festival in Melbourne, Australia,

which is where you went to college. How surprised were you to get the call? Extremely surprised, because we weren't necessarily friends. He was obviously much more successful than me in the festival circuit, so we rarely crossed paths. And I ended up performing with him for the first time in Canada at Just For Laughs in Montreal. And that's when he was very friendly to me at the show.

He was very complimentary. He said, it's great. What you're doing is great. And I said, oh, thanks so much. I didn't think too much about it, right? And then maybe two years later, I get this email to audition for The Daily Show, and I was like, it was like a dream come true. I couldn't believe it.

You know, and so I still remember doing the audition in my apartment in Melbourne and Sending it in and then getting the call back to come to New York City and audition For the Daily Show in New York City, which was obviously, you know a huge deal if you're coming from Australia And so I know I did not expect to get it at all It was very much him who put the spotlight on me, as in the Daily Show would never have found me, if not for Trevor insisting that I get on. And again, I'm not his closest friend, you know?

I don't even think I'm his funniest friend. He just really was adamant that he wanted an Asian person on the show because he felt that Asian people are like half of the world's population, but there's no presence on the Daily Show. And I guess at that time he was thinking of a more international show, right? So he wanted someone who could talk to these issues. So I'm just lucky that I was the recipient of his search. It could have been anybody.

How familiar were you with the show? Oh very familiar. I've been following US politics since The West Wing came out was watching it religiously and then Started, you know always reading about US presidential history I'm a US president nerd and the Daily Show were watching it as soon as we were able to illegally download it in Australia. We would torrent the Daily Show and the Colbert Report and watch it. So I was a huge fan. I was watching all the time. What I read about when Trevor Noah resigned is that you had just done a bit.

And then without you knowing that Trevor Noah wass is that you had just done a bit. And then without you knowing that Trevor Noah was resigning, he resigns on the air right after you're on, were you on camera? Yes. You were on camera. Yes, there's a photo of me standing there not knowing what to do. I was in the studio right next to him,

but obviously off his camera, but there was a camera on me because I was doing a segment with him, as said and then we finished the segment and then usually he says okay everybody Roy Chang everybody and then everyone applauds and I leave leave the studio but he didn't do that this time he yeah he just he explained why he was leaving the show on air and no sign of it there was no sign I didn't know he was doing that why did he do it that way I don't know he's a very smart guy and I trust his judgment on everything and I'm sure he had his reasons you know and I can't speak to them but I'm sure he had his reasons to

do it because it seems like a pretty extreme thing to do maybe he didn't want anybody to leak it maybe he didn't want anyone to talk him out of it. I don't know. That's a possibility. Yeah, but yeah maybe you don't want anyone to leak it. That's also a possibility. What was the expression on your face like as you heard him resigning? I was like is this a bit? And then in my head I was also like well we're not live, you know I mean? Like he could say that and then we could just edit it if he changes his mind. So I was like, this sounds serious, I don't know what's going on.

I'm a person who, I think I do a decent job at minding my own business. So I wasn't like, what's going on? I wasn't trying to like insert myself into this situation, you know what I mean? I was like, oh man, what's going on? You know, it sounds like he is going through some stuff and so I hope he's okay, You know, that was my primary thought.

You might have also been thinking, oh, what happens to The Daily Show? What happens to my job? You know, honestly, I wasn't thinking that because I was here because of Trevor. If I lose the job because of Trevor, I was OK with that. You know what I mean? I wasn't supposed to have this job anyway. Hahaha. So I've always adopted this very nihilistic view about the job and doing it. Not nihilistic, like I care about the job a lot.

I love it. It's the best job in comedy. But I adopted this very like, live in the present. I guess Buddhist, you know, don't worry about the future kind of mentality with the job. And the second thing is also, I believe that America will always have a daily satirical news show. You know, I think of all the countries in the world, if America can't do a daily satirical news show, like which country can? We have the most freedom of speech, we have the most resources for show business.

We have infrastructure for comedic talent, where people can write and get better as performers and writers and can aspire to be hired on shows like this. And we have the craziest political news. Like, if all those factors combine, if America cannot have a daily news satirical show, no one can. My guest is Ronnie Chang, a field correspondent on The Daily Show and one of the anchors. He co-stars in the new Hulu series, Interior Chinatown. His new comedy special, Love to Hate It, starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow, December 17th. We'll be back after a short break.

I'm Terry Gross and this is Fresh Air. You care about what's happening in the world. Let State of the World from NPR keep you informed. Each day we transport you to a different point on the globe and introduce you to the people living world events. We don't just tell you world news, we take you there. And you can make this journey while you're doing the dishes or driving your car.

State of the World podcast from NPR. Vital international stories every day. You care about what's happening in the world. Let State of the World from NPR keep you informed. Each day we transport you to a different point on the globe and introduce you to the people living world events. We don't just tell you world news, we take you there. And you can make this journey while you're doing the dishes or driving your car. State of the World podcast from NPR, vital international stories every day. Hi, it's Tonya Mosley. Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up and our Fresh Air team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support.

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the world and respect for hearing out different perspectives. Join us on the plus side today at plus.npr.org. Thanks. After Trevor Noah left, there was a roster of celebrity comics who anchored the show. And then there was a hiatus, I guess, over the summer. Which we have all the time, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, exactly. And then the correspondents started rotating who anchored the show.

And I wasn't sure, like, is this a temporary thing? Have they decided against having one host or one celebrity comic hosting. And it's turned out so far to be the real thing with the correspondence hosting, you know, anchoring. Are you at liberty to say why the decision was made to have alternating correspondence anchor as opposed to one person or one famous comic? I can talk about it, but to be honest, I don't know the reasoning. Maybe it's just hard to find someone to do it.

It's a tough job. I mean, I guess what I can say is, I think the way it is right now, it makes sense because John wants to be on. John Stewart, who's back on the show once a week. The legendary John Stewart is on once a week. And the way he described it was, we as a satirical news organization,

we should be trying to cover the climate instead of just chasing the weather, right? That's how we get an elevated show, is if we can describe the climate, the political climate of America, versus just chasing these individual news stories. And so what the current arrangement does is that it allows Jon Stewart to come in

and talk about the climate once a week and give us the big ideas in America and it allows the rest of us correspondents to do a bit more weather chasing, which as much as we're trying to avoid that, unfortunately it's necessary weather chasing sometimes because ultimately our job is to make fun of the news and the news happens every single day.

Not that we have to avoid discussing the climate, but we can also, it freezes up to kind of chase the weather a bit, and nobody gets burnt out. So as long as the quality doesn't drop, I mean, you know, this might be the way to do it. You've been in film, so you're now the co-star of the series, Interior Chinatown, and it's a cliché that the Asian guy is the best friend.

Yes. But in a film where the main character is Asian, and much of the story is set in Chinatown, you're the best friend of the other Asian guy is the best friend. Yes. But in a film where the main character is Asian, and much of the story is set in Chinatown, you're the best friend of the other Asian guy. Yes, yes. But that's the beauty of the show, is that we're actually making fun of these stereotypes. Yeah.

Sorry, of these tropes. It's kind of a theme of the series, that the main character feels just kind of invisible. Yes. And he wants to be the star of his own life so I want to play a clip from interior Chinatown and you and Jimmy Oh Yang the main character in the series you're both working at a restaurant in Chinatown and don't really like the job.

You just do it. Maybe I should set up also that we are working in a restaurant in Chinatown, but we are also characters in a TV show who don't realize that we're in a TV show. So we are on the surface working at this restaurant, but we are working at a restaurant in the context of being on a law and order type show. So that's the meta aspect of it.

It's very meta. Yes, yes. So in this scene from the first episode, you're both in the alleyway where the dumpster is. Yeah. And you're both talking and the Jimmy Oh Yang character is talking about how he's like a minor character in his own life and invisible in the world. And he wants to be the main character. He wants to be the star of something. He wants to be, he wants to solve a murder mystery like they do on TV. So this is the conversation between Yim and Jimmy O Yang, he speaks first.

I'm not saying I want someone to die. So what are you saying? Well, I'm saying if someone's already dead, I would like to be the first to find the body. That's weird, man. Okay, you know how in cop shows there's usually a cold open? Cold open. The first scene before the main title. Right.

Okay, so for a couple of minutes, you fall in this random character who you've never met, who's not one of the leads. And part of you is thinking, why am I even watching this guy? Why are you watching this guy? You're watching because either he's about to get killed, or... Or? You seriously never seen a cop show? How is that even possible?

Video games and weed. Okay. What was I saying? Somebody's about to find a dead body? Yes! That's the rule. The person in the first scene of a procedural is either a victim or a witness. Holy sh**! Somebody threw away an entire Peking duck

with the sauce and everything! You're a d***, man. I'm the d***. You were the one who was hoping it was a dead person. Okay. That was my guest Ronnie Chang with Jimmy O-Yang in a scene from Interior Chinatown. In the film Crazy Rich Asians, you have a real standout scene. You're kind of a minor character in it.

I was very complimentary, yeah. But it's a great scene. Does it feel qualitatively different to be in a film with an Asian-themed story and largely Asian cast? Yeah, that's a good question. Creature is Asians was my first movie, so I had nothing to compare it with. But I will say on set, you could feel this really cool camaraderie and chemistry.

We all had this shorthand. We were all Asian actors in our 30s, and we were all in this movie for the first time, this underdog movie, which when we were making, there was no indication it would have been as successful as it was. I think that's fair to say, as in it was still yet to be seen, was not a sure thing.

Lots of risks were taken by the directors and producers, which we're all eternally grateful for that it paid off. But we were all in this thing in Malaysia and Singapore. And so we were just hanging out. We would go for karaoke, we would go for Korean barbecue. We didn't need to explain why we were going for Korean barbecue. It wasn't ethnic eating. It was just food. And then when we get to Korean barbecue, we don't have to explain what was being served. We all got it.

So stuff like that, you know, there was like a shorthand and camaraderie, which exists till today. So correct me if I'm wrong, you're third generation Malaysian? Yeah, Chinese Malaysian. Chinese Malaysian. Yeah. So what I read is that your parents moved to the US when you were three, you stayed with family in Malaysia or Singapore, and then you moved a year later when you were four. So they came when I was one. So then Malaysia for like a year and a half or something.

And then when I was around three years old, then they brought me over. So they were with my sister without me. So they were probably here for like two years, I guess. Did you recognize your parents? You know, I think they tell me that when I saw them at the airport, I walked away because I was so pissed. But I don't remember being, you know, holding it against them. First of all, they were putting themselves through college. So, you know, imagine having to support two kids

and themselves and college. So they were working and going to college at the same time. And then second of all, it was like, yeah, I was too young, you know, it was like a baby. Like we don't, like that is before the internet, who knows what's happening in Manchester, New Hampshire, they just didn't want to risk it. So it was easier. Just take my sister So what was it like when they decided to move back to Malaysia? Oh great question So when they moved back, they didn't tell me we're moving back. They said we're just going for a vacation

So I was like, okay So we'll go and see Malaysia and we'll come back. And then we went back to Malaysia and we never went back to America. And I was like, what happened? Like, why did you guys lie to me? And so I had a chip on my shoulder for like years of being in Singapore and Malaysia. And you know what, maybe they changed... Nah, I was going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I was going to say maybe they went there and changed their mind. But I'm pretty sure they went there knowing I was going to give them the benefit of the doubt. I was going to say maybe they went there and changed their mind, but I'm pretty sure they went there knowing they were going to go back. But no, in hindsight, I think they made the right decision for them. Because when they went back to Malaysia, they had more social capital because they had US education and they were culturally more suited to Malaysia and Singapore. So when they went back I think they made the right choice for them. You know. Oh they became like corporate executives. My mom became like a financial

controller, my dad became like a general manager of factories in China and he would you know he would commute between China and Singapore and Malaysia. But my point is that I don't know if they would have been happy in America because in America we were in, I was very happy, but I was like a four-year-old kid and they were working on a gas station. So I don't begrudge them at all. I wish they had told the truth that we were moving back for good but I think they made the right choice ultimately. So yeah, yeah, and I was lucky. I got to... I appreciate being from Malaysia and seeing Singapore

and seeing Australia and then coming to America and having a bit more perspective on things, you know? I truly think it feels like a superpower sometimes. My guest is comic and actor Ronnie Chang. His new comedy special, Love to Hate It, starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow. We'll be back after a short break. This is Fresh Air. What was it like for you getting started in comedy in the U.S., being an immigrant and

being of Chinese-Malaysian descent? I mean, I didn't start comedy here. I started doing stand-up comedy in Australia. So when I came here, I was already six years into comedy. If you're asking me what it's like to start again in America, it was like a dream because I always wanted to do comedy in New York City. It's the best city in the world to do comedy. You can do five, six, eight shows a night here. The best comics are here, so you're competing against them. So if you have to

follow them, you have to be good. But, I mean, I've told this story many times, but one of the best advice I got was from Mr. John Oliver, who when I first joined The Daily Show, I met up with him because The Daily Show has a very strong alumni, truly the Harvard Business School of Comedy. And I asked him for advice on how to be a correspondent

in America. Being a non-American correspondent on The Daily Show which is something that he's uniquely placed to give me advice on and he told me that it took him two years to relearn how to do comedy in America and he was spot-on. He was spot-on and he was you know he was saying like well mean, this is my interpretation of what he was saying, is that when you come to America as a foreign headliner comic, you can do comedy for five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, you can kill for, you could maybe even kill for 30 minutes, but you're always doing comedy as like the outsider.

You know, meaning like you're coming in, you're making fun of America on a very surface level. And that works for about nine months. But after nine months or like 11 months, I think the audience and you yourself subconsciously can feel the inauthenticity of that in the sense of like, you've been here long enough. You should know that this isn't that weird. Why are you still making fun of five flavors of Coca-Cola? You know, like you should know better now. You've been here long enough. And so the point was that it took two years to really kind of get a little bit more understanding of America

where you could joke about it in a way that, one, Americans haven't heard before, and two, in a way that they agree with you in the authenticity. So earlier, you said that you didn't tell your parents when you were on The Daily Show. And they didn't know what The Daily Show was, because they'd never seen it. It's not big in Malaysia. Did they start watching it after you felt like you were doing a decent job and they could watch it? Yes. Like, literally the day after, I spoke to him and I told him I was on The Daily Show. He, you know, he Googled everything about it

and he was like, hey, you know, Jon Stewart is a big deal in America. I'm like, yeah, Dad, I know. That's what I was trying to tell you. And he was like, yeah, he know, John Stewart is a big deal in America. I'm like, yeah, dad, I know he was. That's what I was trying to tell you. And he was like, yeah, he makes a lot of money, man. These guys making a lot of this guy's multimillion dollar contracts. I'm like, yeah, yeah.

Comedy is a big business in America. And then he, yeah, then he started following it more. But they've always been into American politics, you know, from afar. Apparently, your father was very funny and prided himself on that. Yes. What kind of sense of humor did he have? Did he tell jokes or stories? Yeah, he would.

Only in hindsight. Now, you know, he passed away in 2018 and I talk about this in the special. It's actually the last story I tell in the special. And only in hindsight do I realize like, oh yeah, he would hold court at family gatherings and he would joke about politics and he would like roast the decisions by leaders or people around him family members who will make fun of family members So he was a very um I would say a very modern style of comedy that he was doing But obviously he didn't know he was doing comedy. He was just being the life of the party And he was you know, usually the most

Educated guy in the room usually, you know, so he would be making fun of current affairs current events people Family members you would you know, you just roast them Yeah, that's how he would do it You seem to have such an interesting perspective on the world and on comedy Because you've lived and grown up in so many different countries and traveled the world doing comedy too. How helpful is that to you as

a person and as a comic? I can't deny that having perspective helps a little bit because I have something to compare America to. So I know what's an extreme idea or what's not, you know, compared to other countries. I also know what America does better than other countries. So I guess that lets me talk about it a little bit more in depth. I don't know, I think a lot of what I learned about comedy, I'm very lucky that I moved to New York City when I was 30 years old, nine years ago. Because I think being here in this environment made me a better comic. I don't think comedy is the greatest art form on the planet and whatever,

but I think it's a good art form, and one of the good things about it is that we talk to live human beings every day. So you get a sense of where the cultural zeitgeist is, I think a lot better than anyone else, you know. So, my not just being able to live in different countries, I went to law school, you know, I have a degree in finance as well. So, I think I've gotten to see a lot of different worlds. I've seen the corporate world, I've seen the crazy comedian live-performing world, I've seen the left-wing world.

In Singapore I see the conservative world, the Chinese world, and Australian. So I've seen enough different kinds of subcultures to, I guess, be able to compare stuff. Ronny Chang, thank you so much for coming on our show. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This is a real honor to be on the show and to speak to you. Thank you so much for coming on our show. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This is a real honor to be on the show and to speak to you. Thank you so much. Ronny Chang's new Netflix comedy special, Love to Hate It, starts streaming tomorrow, December 17th.

This is Fresh Air. Rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening back to the pop music made in 2024 and sees a pattern of women hint makers who prize both aggression and vulnerability in various proportions. In songs by Charlie XCX, Sabrina Carpenter, Chapel Roan, and others, Ken has found the soundtrack to the past years to multuous times. I guess the apple don't fall far from the tree Cause I've been looking at you so long now I only see me I wanna throw the apple into the sky Feels like you never understand me

So I just wanna try to be apple Be apple Be apple Be apple The year in Pop Music 2024 pivoted around a trio of women, hitmakers whose various successes hinged upon assertions of creative ambition and admissions of romantic weakness. Foremost among them is the British songwriter, Charlie XCX. Her album, Brat, sought to redefine brattiness, less as irritating behavior than as an insistence that petulance can be justified frustration and anger,

that you don't get to define her feelings. Charlie's collaborations with other women on the remix version of the album, including Billie Eilish and Ariana Grande, suggested a growing army of artists ready to take up her cause. keeping things light while also serving as an example of ferocious willfulness was Sabrina Carpenter, whose album title, Short and Sweet, referred both to Carpenter herself and the concise, clever hits she makes. Listening to her cooing vocals and seeing her wiggly videos, I had to reach way back to Mae West to come up with a comparable example of a

woman who wraps her steely command in such a deceptively saucy tone. Some fresh air but the ceiling fan is so nice and we could live so happily If no one knows that you're with me, I'm just kidding. But really Really, really Please, please, please don't prove all right Please, please, please don't bring me to tears when I just did my makeup so lightly That's Please Please Please, Carpenter's pleading not pleading warning to a boyfriend that he's got to treat her right. The third member of my 2024 power grouping is Chappell Rhone. Her mixture of singer-songwriter details, dance pop grooves, and lovely ballads really caught

on as the admiration of her peers increased. She was an opening act on Olivia Rodrigo's tour and is a guest on Sabrina Carpenter's Netflix Christmas special. No wonder she proclaimed, I'm your favorite artist's favorite artist. One of her catchiest songs is the emotionally complex Good Luck Babe, in which Roan encourages a straight woman who seems to have a crush on her to feel free to express her desires more openly. It's fine, it's cool, you can say that we are nothing but you know the truth, and guess I'm the fool with their arms out like an angel through the

glass unreal I don't want to call it love but you don't want to call it love you only want to be the one that I call baby you can catch on being poison must shoot another shot to stop the feeling If you're thinking I've forgotten a certain woman, one around whom so much of not just the music industry but the culture industry revolves, well, I did enjoy a lot of Taylor Swift's album The Tortured Poets Department. But I'd be lying if I didn't say I enjoyed a book about her even more. Rob Sheffield's Heartbreak is the national anthem, How Taylor Swift Reinvented pop music. It's the year's best critical appraisal of pop stardom disguised as a fan's ecstatic notes.

Finally, I want to remind you of a woman who is not a hit maker, whose 2024 work was among the year's finest. Arriving in an election year, Carsey Blanton's glowingly political collection after the revolution, tried to imagine a better world after a period of upheaval and chaos. Walking through the war, to the corner store Everyone's poor and sad

So I picked a fight, later on that night I was sick of fear and shame And I know it all could be a fault But I need someone to blame After the revolution We'll have a better life. You'll be a better estate. I'll be a better wife. We'll have a dream relation.

We'll take it home today. We'll always be the same. Where the other artists I played locate their feminism in dance pop, For love is the easiest way Where the other artists I played locate their feminism in dance pop, Carsey Blanton mixes folk and rock distinctively. And her version of sexual politics is broad enough to encompass a class critique as well. While Blanton is singing from the sidelines of superstardom, some stars might do well to listen to her for an example of how to make good music

that also refers to subjects other than self-care. Nothing wrong with expanding your already huge base by being even more ambitious in the new year. Ken Tucker is Fresh Air's rock critic. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, my guests will be Billy Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, the internationally famous brother and sister songwriting and music-making duo. We'll talk about what it was like to be home-schooled, become famous in their teens, and how their

lives and music have changed as adults. They have a new album. I hope you'll join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldenado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challener, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley.

I'm Terry Gross.