Fresh Air - Ebon Moss-Bachrach Takes Us Inside 'The Bear' Kitchen

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

Ebon Moss-Bachrach has won two Emmys for his portrayal of Cousin Richie, the abrasive and ornery cook/maître d' on the FX series The Bear. The show is known for kitchen chaos, but he says the set is calm. He spoke with Fresh Air contributor Ann Marie Baldonado about the show, his character on GIRLS, and his venture into the Marvel Universe. TV critic David Bianculli reviews the documentary, My Mom Jayne, produced and edited by Law & Order actor Mariska Hargitay. It's about her mom, the actress Jayne Mansfield, who died young in a car accident.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

You know those things you shout at the radio or maybe even at this very NPR podcast? On NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, we actually say those things on the radio and on the podcast. We're rude across all media. We think the news can take it. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me wherever you get your podcasts. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tonya Mosley. And our guest today is Eben Moss-Bakrak.

He's won two consecutive Emmy Awards for playing the role of Richie in the FX series The Bear. The show, which has won 21 Emmys altogether, returns this week for its fourth season. Moss-Bakrak spoke to Fresh Airs Annemarie Baldonado. When we first meet the character Richie in The Bear, he's loud, abrasive, and ornery. We get the sense that he's like this all the time, but he's also dealing with the recent death of his best friend and business partner Michael and the return of Michael's younger brother, Carmy.

Carmy left Chicago to work at the world's best restaurants, and now he wants to transform the neighborhood sandwich shop Richie used to run with Michael. Here's Eben Moss' back rack as Richie, with Jeremy Allen White as Carmi, and Iowa Debris as Sydney. She's helping us out today. Cousin, you're ordering different mayonnaise, bro? You're ordering these bananas? No, all you, Chef.

Yeah, all you, Chef. This Biff, he was using them to make a giant nut muffin. It was a play on a panettone. It would have been beautiful if you let me finish it, alright? Richie Jeremovich. Pleasure to meet you, sweetheart. Don't say sweetheart. You'll be in a... Sorry, Carm. You're so woke. I made nothing by it. Sydney, saying sweetheart is just part of our Italian heritage. That's beautiful. Thank you. Wonderful. Okay, listen, I'm trying to talk to you, okay?

Don't be rude and start doing a million things like I'm smart. I don't have time for that. I don't have time for this right now. I don't have time to take your mom for six. I got all kinds of receipts from my divorce lawyer backing up because all the time I've been trying to put your family back together because you're too much of a c***er to come home. The guys are texting me.

You're telling them to do all sorts of weird **** backwards. Don't do that, Carmen. Don't go messing with their heads and ordering different mayonnaise and hiring new bras without talking to me first. This is your brother's house, OK? Yeah, remember? I was running it fine without you. Why didn't he leave it to you then?

As the show goes on, the viewers grow to love Richie, learning all the ways that he's hurting, which include the end of his marriage and his worry about losing a relationship with his young daughter. Moss Backrack has won two Emmy Awards for Best Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series for playing Richie. He played Desi on the TV series Girls and starred in shows including Andor and The Punisher. He's also appeared in many plays and films over the decades and next month he co-stars in the next big Marvel film, The Fantastic Four, First Steps.

Eben Moss-Bakrak, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks, thank you. I know that you're very protective of the characters that you play, so I want you to know, I mean this in the best possible way, I think that Richie is the character I've done the most dramatic one-adeon, maybe ever.

We just heard Richie from the beginning of the series, but as the show goes on, I know I'm not alone when I say that we're rooting for Richie. I feel that in many ways, he's the heart of the show, which is a testament to the writing and to your performance. What did you know early on about the journey that Richie was going to take? I knew that this was a man who was suffering, who was finding himself in a world that he didn't really recognize anymore, who

felt under threat, back against the wall, kind of, you know, trying to grab anything that was, could keep him afloat. And somebody in that position, I think that kind of a part can hold a lot of volatile, dangerous, spontaneous behavior. A lot can be justified by somebody who's fighting for their survival. And then as somebody who's at a certain point in my life, I also related to this guy of just seeing so many things that I loved in my neighborhood, in my city, changing and seeing things, everything become in a bank. I really related to them in that way.

I will say that The Bear can be a pretty stressful watch. There's yelling often, adrenaline always, and there's this anxiety that pulses throughout a lot of the time. What is it like to film? Does it feel that pitched as you're doing it? Does it feel that, like, high octane? Uh, it's funny for me to think about, uh,

like, a set that would be, like, how the scenes are. Like, they call cut, and then everyone's screaming at each other and putting out the cigarettes that were in the scene and then lighting up cigarettes that they're gonna smoke in between takes. No, I mean, to make something that alive feeling in a way, I think it takes an enormous amount of rehearsal between the actors, between the actors in the camera department,

in the props department. We have such a deep and wonderful crew that it really requires a lot of sensitivity and listening. I think the people involved in Making the Bear listen a lot more than Richie, Sidney, and Carmy. So it's a very loving, fun, calm, well-run set. I wanna play a scene from season three of the show. The restaurant is getting off the ground,

but both Richie and Carmi are still battling. They've just had a huge fight on the first day of service for friends and family, and they really yelled hateful things at each other. The character Richie even calls Carmi Dee Dee, which is Carmi's mom's name, and calling that maybe one of the biggest insults Richie could give because, you know, that mom is pretty, you know, troubled. Anyway,

they're trying to get back on track and have the restaurant be successful, but they have different ideas about how to do that. So here's the scene. Hey, Chef Cyd, have you seen my iron? Also, when you have a sec, would you ask Chef Carmen what the f*** I did with my tables out front? Uh, Chef Sid, would you please tell Richard that I thought I would set him up for success and arrange his tables in a more efficient pattern? Is that what you did? Yes. That's what I did. It was really funny.

I, uh, I walked in, and it was so strange. It looked like the person who had done it previously had never left the city of Chicago. You couldn't leave the city of Chicago out of it? Zero flow, uh, no efficiency, so I thought I'd give you a hand. Ha ha ha ha! Chef Sid, would you tell Chef Carmen that I can give him a f***ing hand if he wants? He wants to give me a f***ing hand and give me a hand.

I just might suggest that the both of you stop, because I don't like this at all. Sid, it's fine. Chef Carmen uses power phrases because he's a baby replicant who's not self-actualized, which is maybe why he repeatedly referred to me as a loser. Richie, I apologize. No, no, no, it's all good. I don't need your apology. I know how you feel now. Also, I respect your honesty and bravery

from inside a locked vault. You know what, matter of fact, Chef Sydney, I don't remember Richard apologizing for all the s*** he was literally screaming at me while I was in the free area. You think I love you? What? You know what? Out there, that's my dojo. Shit gets rearranged without my approval or consent. It creates an environment of fear,

and fear does not exist in that dojo. Richard, I added more two tops because all those four tops were nonsense, okay? You added the four tops in the fridge, dog. I moved the flowers because, Jesus Christ, that was a lot of flowers. Those flowers are elegant as shit. I'm apologizing, and you're screaming.

Am I? Yeah, yeah, you are. Oh, yeah, that's right. Is it fucking rich, Richard? You wanna get. And you're screaming. Am I? Yeah, yeah, you are. Oh yeah, that's right. Is it rich, Richard? You want to get the f*** out of my face, Carmen? Can you both shut up, please? Sorry, Sid.

It's just textbook sublimation. You've seen it once, you've seen it a thousand times. I actually don't know what to do right now. That's a scene from season three of The Bear with I.O. Debris, Jeremy Allen White, and Eben Moss' back rack. When a scene is like that with that much screaming, is it written that way or are you sort of improvising how you approach the arguing? That scene. To quote Walter in The Big Lebowski, eight year olds dude.

That scene was as written. I mean, you know, at this point in Richie's life, you know, he's trying to do some work. He's reading some self-help books. And I, you know, I don't really have that kind of vernacular at my disposal, like, you know, all the self-actualization. And I'm sure there were some changes in words from take to take. But, yeah, I wouldn't call it, like, improvising. I want to ask you about a few beloved episodes of the show. One is from season two, called Fishes, which was a flashback episode going back five years

before Michael's death and the changes at the restaurant and we learn about their family the Berzotto family the episode takes place on Christmas it's a Christmas family dinner and for those of us who grew up in families where there's a lot of yelling friction and also alcoholism this episode is so good but it can be triggering and I And I know you say, you know, your favorite episodes of The Bear take place with the family of the restaurant, the staff that works there. But this episode has this impressive group

of guest actors like Jamie Lee Curtis as the matriarch of the family. There's also Bob Odenkirk, Sarah Paulson, John Mulaney, Gillian Jacobs, and some of the rest of the regular cast members. What was it like filming this episode? Was it as frenetic to film as it was to watch? Yeah, we shot this over two days. It was different. All of a sudden, there was SUVs on set,

and the food was a lot better. That was kind of different. I think that... They rolled out the red carpet a little bit. That was kind of different. I think that they rolled out the red carpet a little bit for all of our esteemed guest stars that week. Yeah, I mean, it's funny because, you know, these were actors that, you know, they're so high powered and we all know their work so well, but then they were guests on our set. And one thing I've noticed over the years that I've done this is, like, no matter how experienced you are

and how many sets you've walked onto, it is always a little bit nervous and you feel a little bit shy, or I feel a little bit shy every time I walk onto a new set. And so I was sort of observing these incredibly talented actors go... experience that, and I was, I don't know, I think, at least for my part, I was very empathetic in trying to make everybody

feel at home and welcome. There's an episode that's focused on Richie's character called Forks. And it's great. And it sort of marks a transition for Richie, where he seems to find new purpose. It's season two, they're trying to open the restaurant and Carmée has sent your character Richie to train at another restaurant, one that's called one of the best restaurants in the world. I've read that you

found filming this episode to be lonely. It's a quieter episode and you're really the only member of the regular cast in it. What was it like filming this one? Yeah, I mean, I found it lonely in a way. I thought the lighting was cold. It had a very different color to it than the rest of our episodes. There's usually a real warmth.

And the bear in this one felt kind of blue and austere. Almost like an operating room. I mean, I really love the people I work with. My favorite scenes to shoot, like we said, are like the group scenes where talking with Liza and Lionel and Edwin, and everyone's talking over each other, and there's this shorthand.

Here I was without any of those kind of hallmarks of the experience that I'd grown to love and was look forward to and I was working with all new actors I remember that the layout of this restaurant was so confusing I could never find what like where the bathroom was or where my little I've carved've carved out some little, like, put my chair in some corner where I could sort of be alone and look at my lines and think about scenes and stuff. And I could never find my way back to it.

I was just confused, I think, most of the time. I think that comes out in the episode, actually. That starkness and that confusion. Yeah, I mean, it's an episode that I don't, I've seen it once kind of through, you know, like squinting eyes behind hands. It's just a lot of me for me to take in, to be honest. One thing that's heartbreaking about Richie is how he mourns the end of his marriage.

And because of flashbacks, we know that it seems like on the timeline, as recently as five years ago, Richie and his wife were together. They were about to have a baby, and they were very much together. But by the time we meet Richie five years later, his marriage is over, and his ex-wife is with someone else. And I want to play a scene from that episode, Forks.

Richie is working at the Michelin Star restaurant for that week. He's taking a break and gets a phone call from his ex-wife played by Gillian Jacobs. Hey. Hey, how are you? I'm great. I'm great. What's going on? Is Eva okay? I know. What's going on? Is Eva okay? No, she's great. She's totally great. Yeah. Oh, yo, Jimmy, I got those Taylor Swift ticks.

You did? Yeah. Oh, she's gonna be so excited. I know, right? It's incredible. Actually, I got three if you wanna come. You don't have to. No, no, no, it's I...

That's so sweet, that's so sweet. I just... I know you're really busy, so I wanted to just tell you something. It's a little bit hard to say. Okay. Are you alright? I'm fine, yeah, I'm fine. I just want you to hear it from me.

What do you mean? Give me one. Frank proposed to me. What'd you say? I said yes. He's like a really good guy. That's great Tiff. Thank you. I don't want you to know that nothing's gonna change between us. That's a scene from season two of The Bear. Will we learn more about what happened to their marriage in that relatively short period of time? Yeah, that scene. Bear. A comedy. Yeah, that scene's brutal.

Gilly and Jacob, such a great actress. I love working with her. Unfortunately, most of her scenes are phone calls because they don't have much relationship anymore. Actually, I do think there's a lot of tenderness there, and she genuinely loves him. Do we learn more about what happened with them? We spend more time with them together as parents,

as exes. In terms of like a literal sense of like a flashback of the two of them, that's not something that we've shot. Do you do work to fill in what might have happened to them? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I spend a lot of time kind of daydreaming and thinking about these things and filling in the blanks. And these are thoughts and fantasies and ideas

that I will never share. Understood. I think one thing that makes viewers love Richie is the way that he is with his daughter. Even though he's divorced, he's so devoted to her and doing the right thing by her and trying to be a good dad. Besides having what seems like a tough upbringing where he sort of, you know, so much so that he becomes part of the family that owned the restaurant.

You have two daughters, and I think that being a parent of girls can be a very specific parenting experience. What did you want to make sure that you brought to Richie as a father? experience, what did you want to make sure that you brought to Richie as a father? I mean, some of the things that are challenging for him and making it difficult for him to navigate his way through the world, like loyalty, honesty in a way, you know, these things I think are sometimes hindrances and sometimes they're really great qualities.

And I wanted to see the kind of converse of some of these things in his relationship with his daughter. Obviously, he's a dad that would do anything for his daughter, like so many parents, like most parents I would say. And then he's really into her world and where he doesn't listen as well on the outside with her.

His time with her is so limited that it's so valuable. And I think each minute is something that he really invests himself and tries to be present in a way that he's not when he's at the restaurant. I also, I don't know, I just enjoy doing scenes with that little actress so much. I think she's so great and I don't know, I just enjoy doing scenes with that little actress so much.

I think she's so great and I don't know, she's so fascinating. She's such an eccentric young girl. There's a scene later in that episode where Richie has completely won everyone over at the fancy restaurant. He's really getting it and getting the value of his work. And he's driving home singing along to the Taylor Swift song Love Story. And it's this great triumphant moment for Richie. How did that moment come about? Like was that always the song? I read you weren't necessarily a Swiftie before you shot this.

It's just such a great moment. Yeah, it is a great moment. I'm not going to comment about my swiftiness or non-swiftiness. That's a minefield. Either way, it's just doesn't look good for me. I'm sorry. Yeah, I can't believe I did that to you. Yeah, please, please.

But I think that scene is a great scene. And it's so nice to spend just a few minutes singing something loudly and celebrating and having exuberance, and driving and singing along with a song that you love loudly. That's such a visceral, great kind of release. Something that we don't see that much, I think, in movies and TV shows, or certainly, certainly stuff that I'm not being asked to do all that much.

So, yeah, I really enjoyed that evening. I loved those speed bumps. I loved the squeaks, the squeak of the suspension in the car. But that was always written with that scene. I'm sure it was a process finding her, tracking her down, getting permission to use the song, but I don't really know about the details of that process.

Well, there's something perfect about that song because it's like a triumphant young love story, which seems like an echo to Richie's story. And then also just that he got her Taylor Swift tickets. That's like, I mean, that's like dad of the year material. So I feel like it just wraps it all together. And then also as you're driving, you're still cursing as you're driving.

The character Richie is still cursing at other drivers which I think is also pretty Richie. Yeah and what you couldn't see is all these these Arby's these empty Arby's cups in the backseat just jumping up with every kind of speed bump the chaos within the car. My guest is Eben Moss-Bakrak. The new season of The Bear premieres this week. More after a break. I'm Anne-Marie Baldonado and this is Fresh Air. On NPR's Thru Line. Schoolhouses are less expensive than rebellions. We've been debating the government's role in education since the Civil War. A tenth of our national debt would have saved us the blood and treasure of the late war.

How the Department of Education tried to fix a divided nation. Listen to Thru Line wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, it's Sarah Gonzalez. At Planet Mani, when we say we want you to understand the economy, sure we mean tariffs and global supply chains and interest rates, cosas así, but also we shot a satellite into space. We made our own vodka, became a record label, made a comic book, all to help you make better sense of the world around you.

Listen to the Planet Money podcast from NPR. This is Fresh Air. I'm Anne-Marie Baldonado, back with actor Eben Moss-Bakrak. He plays Richie on the FX show The Bear. Season 4 starts this week. Moss-Bakrak has won two Emmy Awards for Best Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series for the role. He starred as Desi in the TV series Girls and was in shows including Andor and The Punisher. He started out as a stage actor and next year, he'll make his Broadway debut in a stage production of Dog Day Afternoon.

Next month, he stars as Ben Grimm, AKA The Thing, in the new Marvel film, The Fantastic Four, First Steps. One of the first film roles you had was in the Wes Anderson film, The Royal Tenenbaums. You played a bellboy at the hotel where Royal Tenenbaum played by Gene Hackman, where he lives. Here's a little bit of that scene, or all of that scene. There's a call for you, Mr. Tenenbaum. Who is it, Frederick?

A Mr. Fagota. That's you in the Royal Tenenbaums. What was it like being in this film? Was it one of the first times you were on a set? And if that's true, what do you remember about it? I rewatched that movie the other day with one of my kids and god it's such a good movie. Yes. I'm so happy to be part of it and even in this tiny, tiny little way. And I think finally enough time has gone by where I was like you know what I'm pretty good as Frederick the bellhop.

I'm okay. I'm okay. It was the second time I was on a set, probably my first time in such a fancy hotel. Um, I remember mostly Wes Anderson's attention to detail, him coming down like a tailor and sort of adjusting the hem of my pants, fixing my hair, adjusting my little pillbox hat. I mean, I got that part because I had like quite a good head of hair. Yeah, at the time you had kind of curly hair that comes out of the pillbox sort of at the bottom. Yeah, exactly. It kind of explodes. It's like an upside-down volcano or something. Well, one of your breakout roles was in the TV show Girls. You started out as a guest star who was only

going to be in a few episodes but then became a series regular. When viewers meet you, you're auditioning for a Broadway play and you meet the character Adam who's played by Adam Driver who's also auditioning and just starting out. And by the way Desi is a successful actor, you know He auditioned for a Broadway play and he got the role How did you see Desi? I? Saw him as a little bit of a con man. Hmm Really well put together on the outside, but a lot of crisis and chaos going on internally a bit of a searcher I

Feel like he was not committed necessarily acting. He was a musician. I'm sure he painted. And a lot of maybe like clothing, if I'm being like really not charitable, like maybe pre-distressed jeans. Yeah, a lot of pre-distressed denim. Yeah. Um. Ha ha ha. Um. But also, you know, somebody that felt very deeply, loved deeply, um, a baby. Yeah. A little bit.

I want to play a scene from Girls. Here, Desi is a regular cast member and is now with the character Marnie. They started out as a musical duo with some success. Eventually Marnie and Desi get married, but they're also this musical duo too. In this scene they're arguing about what music to use in their upcoming showcase for a record label, which is important to their future career as musicians. Here's the scene. But this is now one of our top two. What do you like better? Rattlesnake Cowgirl, Heart for Sale,

Whoa, Wow Wonderful, um, Song for Marcus Garvey, Oaxaca Blues, Coco Pelli Shelley. I mean, that's top six right there. Hmm, yeah, I know. I just feel like it's our chance to show some range. Okay. See, what I think about the showcase, we put our best foot forward. Agreed.

And if half of our set is a Siripi love song, that's a total mislead, babe, you know? But we sing love songs. Not really. We sing like modern American folk with an indie edge. I tell people that we're like she and him, but with actual romance. But we're nothing like she and him.

We're not? Whoa. You're blowing my mind right now. Marnie, we are nothing. I hope we're like she and him. My god. We are nothing. Are you kidding me right now? You're freaking? Whoa. You're blowing my mind right now. Marnie, we are nothing. I hope we're like She and Him. My God. We are nothing. Are you kidding me right now?

You're freaking me out. We are nothing like She and Him, okay? We are nothing like that band. How can we have completely different takes on the same band that we were both in? That is bizarre to me. I'm starting to wonder if maybe you don't like Close Up because I wrote it instead of you. No, I like this song. Are you sure?

I loved this song. Okay, what do you mean loved this song? And then you told me that you're writing she and him songs and now like my whole... I gotta do a heavy rethink here. How about we talk about the partnership that I thought we were in, whereas recently... No, recently it's just been me writing while you tinker with your motorcycle. I'm... That's my... That's my mode of transportation, Marnie.

That's my mode of transportation! That doesnie. That's my mode of transportation. That doesn't change anything. That's how I get. That's weak, dude. That's my mode of transportation. That's a scene from girls. Did you watch Girls at the time when it was airing? I didn't know.

I watched a little bit of it the first season, but I also was I was like so jealous that I was I really want to be a part of it. And so it was complicated for me to watch it. It was filming right there. It was filming like right by you. Yeah, exactly. I would say it walked by. And then once I was working on it, I wouldn't watch it much just because I didn't want it

to sort of affect the way I was going to continue to work on it. I didn't want it to make me self-conscious. What do you think of that scene? Oh my god, that scene is... That, um, that list of songs is really, really funny. Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. My guest is Emmy award-winning actor Eben Moss-Backrack. His show, The Bear, begins its new season this week.

More after a break, this is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. I'm Anne-Marie Baldonado, back with actor Eben Moss-Backrack. Next month he stars in the new Marvel film, The Fantastic Four First Steps. He's won two Emmys for his portrayal of Richie on the FX show The Bear. Next month you truly enter your Marvel era. You've been in the Marvel universe before, but you're becoming a main character in the new movie, The Fantastic Four First Steps. You play the character Ben Grimm, who

develops mutant supernatural powers and becomes the Thing. This first movie is coming out and then you'll reprise your role in the two new upcoming Avenger films. So you're definitely, you know, in for more than one movie. What was it like being in this film? Yeah, very different kind of part for me. I guess the biggest departure would be that it's motion capture, performance capture. So I wear these groovy looking pajama kind of tights and top and then I have wires strapped to various points of my body and then I have wires strapped to various points of my body. And then I have a helmet with kind of GoPro looking cameras kind of on a little extended gimbals right in front of my nose

to sort of capture my eyes and my mouth and my facial expressions. And where are you, what space are you in when you're doing this? I'm in on the set, you know, and I haven't seen the movie yet, but one thing I do know is that, you know, the art department and our production design is really spectacular. And so they're really pretty incredible set builds, like things that I had never seen

before. That kind of like reminded me of like old style, like D.W. Griffith kind of like movie making huge, big sprawling sets of New York and Times Square and the Lower East Side, incredible mid-century modern house that the Fantastic Four live in. So I'm just on all these really cool sets and very much involved as I would be,

you know, I'm just in there with the other people in the scene and I'm interacting with them and they're in costumes and I'm just sort of in this other strange techie kind of placeholder for what will then be built around me animated, you know, this much bigger orange rock guy. Can you describe your character Ben Grimm, who is the thing? I'm not sure how much of the original story from the comic book series and from other movies are still part of this character.

You know, people feel so strongly about this. You can't stray too far from the path. You got to keep it pretty canon. Ben is from the Lower East Side. He's from Yancey Street, which is maybe like a little bit like Delancey Street maybe. And he's a school friend of Reed Richards. He's a football player. He's a wrestler. He becomes a comes a star pilot, really amazing pilot, and Reed is this genius scientist that convinces Ben and his wife Sue and her brother to go up and to steal the ship and go into outer space. And there's like a storm, some kind of space storm, and these gamma rays penetrate

the ship and they all return changed forever. Ben is more changed because he has physically been altered. He has this new rock kind of dermis, which is so he looks like a monster and he doesn't change back and forth like the Hulk or anything, that's just how he is for the rest of his life with a couple of exceptions. Oh, that's right.

Yeah, your character stays as a rock. Yeah, that's really key to his psyche, I think. I haven't seen the Fantastic Four yet, but I like that you're playing another character that has this rock exterior. In this case, literally, he's made of rock. You said that this acting compared to your other roles, it's almost like another job.

I was thinking that you show so much emotion through your face and through your physicality. What did you mean that it's almost a different kind of job? What are other ways that it's different? I would think about it a lot in two ways. Over the course of a day, like, my brain would go back and forth. One speed was that I was just trying to imbue this character with as much humanity as I could.

Because I felt like I had to in some ways fight through all of this animation and because I was interested in, I think it was similar to probably Ben's experience on a day where he knows how he seems and he knows he looks like this horrible monster. And so he's making concerted effort to bring his humanity through to make people feel okay, to make people feel less, to make people be less mean towards him, to sort of undercut his external appearance. So I had that, that was going in one way.

While simultaneously I was had all this physical freedom, and that in many ways, this technology and this animation was like a mask. And I had, I wasn't confined to my body and my physical appearance the way that I am for any other part I've ever done. So there was things I could do with movement, with heaviness, and the way he would, his huge hands, huge feet, the way he would interact with things. So that became a much more imaginative fantasy,

sort of almost like how I would play make believe when I was a kid, you know. So you are thinking about movement in a different way. Yeah, well, certainly. I mean, I had to. He can't, couldn't really move the way that I can move. I mean, he's very, very heavy. He weighs thousands of pounds.

At the same time, he's very nimble. But I mean, I'm a kind of uncoordinated, lanky sort of, I don't know, wet rubber band or something. So he's a much heavier, grounded dude. Now it was recently announced that you will be on Broadway next year in a stage play, Dog Day Afternoon. It's based on the same real life robbery that the 1975 movie Dog Day Afternoon was based on. You star with John

Bertholdt, who is someone you co-star with in The Bear. You're also on the show The Punisher with him, and I think you've done plays together. I actually read that you recommended him for the part of Michael on The Bear. Is that true? Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I got you on that job. So he got me this dog day afternoon gig. So now we're even. Well, so what and what was it about him that you thought would be good for Michael, who

is the best friend and the brother who passed away who committed suicide? And we don't really see him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't really see him at all in the first season until maybe just the very end of the season in a flashback. Is that... I think that's true. I'm remembering that correctly. I think something like that.

And in my mind, when I was reading the scripts, I kind of felt like we would never see him. And I thought that that was probably the way to play it because he's so talked about, he's this specter sort of informing everything, and I just thought it would be disappointing or maybe, I just like that idea of let everybody in the audience, let them have their own idea of who this person is who's larger than life.

And so when Chris Storr, our showrunner, was asking me if I thought I've had any ideas for who could be playing Michael Barzato, I was like, I don't think we should ever see him. I just think that will just diminish anything. Then at one point I did, I was like, you know what, actually, John is such a larger than life, magnetic, charismatic person.

I was like, you know, what would you think about John Bernthal? And I suspect that Chris all along was sort of encouraging me to reach out to John. I think I'm pretty sure that he all along, he was just waiting for me to come to this realization. I think John's terrific, really, really great in this part. And also one of the few actors that could fill the shoes of this guy. What is your connection to the story and the film Dog Day Afternoon? Because you'll be playing the role of Sal,

which was originated by the actor John Casale, who appeared in only five movies before passing away too young. But the five movies were The Godfather, The Conversation, Godfather Part II, Dog Day Afternoon, and The Deer Hunter. He was also a theater actor, like an actor's actor. I was wondering if a young Evan Moss back rack

dreamed of having an acting career like John Cazale Oh 100% I mean what a gift what an incredible gift he was Yeah, the conversations like probably my favorite movie. I Mean it's a tragedy that we that he died so young but it is Yeah, and it's in his short time here oh my gosh what a force yeah I do feel you know it's like I'll try to do my best to honor this guy but we're gonna make it a bit a bit different something else yeah so it's based on the same source material which was this true story of a bank robbery

that happened in New York, and that became the movie, but the playwright is going back to that original material too. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on in that robbery and before that robbery that's not in the movie that's really interesting that we're digging into. There's a lot there. When you announce something like that, a Broadway show that you're going to do next year, what is the process of preparing? Because I'm sure you're doing other things too, but is it just that that's sort of when it fits

into your schedule or do you do things in the year lead up or both? My process right now is to pretend that it's not happening for as long as possible and to delay, delay, delay. But yeah, I don't know. I'm very, very, very excited to do this thing and to spend a few months with my dear friend, John, and I'm sure it'll be a wonderful cast.

And I like nothing more than, like, working on new American plays. It's kind of my favorite thing to do, to be in that rehearsal room when the writer's there. The writer's alive. They're there. It's a work in progress. It's a deep, deep collaboration between writer-director, dramaturg, and the whole cast. It's like deep deep collaboration between writer director,

dramaturg, and the whole cast. It's like everyone's getting their hands dirty. It feels very alive and exciting and it's been a long time since I've done that. Eben Moss-Bakrak, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Eben Moss-Bakrak speaking with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Baldonado. His film, The Fantastic Four, First Steps, comes out next month, and season four of The Bear premieres tonight. After a short break, TV critic David Bianculli reviews a new documentary about Jane Mansfield by her daughter Mariska Hargitay.

This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. On Friday, HBO premieres a documentary film called My Mom Jane. It marks the directorial debut of Law and Order SVU star Mariska Hargitay, who sets out in the film to learn about her mother, who died in a car accident when Mariska was three. Her mother was Jane Mansfield, the famous movie star of the 1950s and 60s. Our TV critic David Bianculli says that My Mom Jane turns out to be much more intimate and full of genuine surprises than he expected. At the very start of My Mom Jane, producer and director

Mariska Hargitay lays out the basic facts as she knows them about her parents, siblings, and early childhood. She has only the vaguest memories of her mother, Jane Mansfield, the sex symbol star of such films as The Girl Can't Help It and Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter. Jane Mansfield died in 1967 in a car crash at age 34 when Mariska, one of her mother's five children, was only three. She was raised by her father, who also was a celebrity of the 1950s. He was Mickey Hargitay, a former Mr. Universe.

And to young Mariska, he was the only parent she ever really knew. My dad, who was my rock, died in 2006. And there were so many questions that I never asked them. I've also never really talked to my siblings much about their experiences. But I want to understand her now. Because it's a part of my life and a part of me that's always felt locked away.

One method Mariska Hargitay uses to unlock her family secrets is to do the research she had previously avoided. She reads celebrity tell-all biographies and magazine articles, and collects as many of the existing TV and movie appearances and recorded interviews as she could. Mariska's mother was raised in Texas, played classical piano and violin, and spoke several languages. She married young and persuaded her then-husband to move with her to Los Angeles to pursue her dream of a career in show business. He didn't last long and neither did their marriage.

But Jane Mansfield persisted and explained in an early interview how her plans for being a serious actress were affected by the way some people responded to her looks and especially to her very curvy figure. I did a soliloquy from Joan of Arc for Milton Lewis, who was the head of casting at Paramount Studios, in order to audition. And he just seemed to think that I was wasting my, as he said, obvious talent.

And he lightened my hair and heightened my dresses, and this is the result. In 1955, when she was only 22 years old, Jane Mansfield became a Broadway sensation as the scene-stealing co-star of the comedy Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter. Movie roles followed quickly. First as the sexy star of the early rock and roll film The Girl Can't Help It, which also featured Little Richard and Fats Domino, then in the movie version of Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter. Also in that film was Groucho Marx, who later welcomed Jane Mansfield to his TV show Tell

It to Groucho. By that time, she was trying to shake her sex symbol image, but as a clip from Groucho's show illustrates, even her strongest supporters couldn't resist perpetuating it. You actually are. Oh, that's sweet of you. Thank you so much. I think you're aware of that, Jane. This is a kind of an act you do, isn't it? Oh, it's, you know. Most people don't know that, though. I think that it's like this. The public pays money to the box office to see me a certain way.

And they get their money's way, too. I think it's just all part of the role I'm playing as an actress. My mom Jane is equally thorough about looking into Mickey Hargitay's past and how he and Jane Mansfield met and fell in love. But after delving deeply into the public record of films, TV clips and vintage interviews, Mariska takes an even deeper dive into the private record. She interviews her brothers and sisters, who share detailed memories with her for the first time, and who are invaluable contributors as both sources and on-camera supporting characters. Mariska also examines the vast contents of a family storage locker that had remained unopened since 1969. And like the determined detective

she's played on Law and Order SVU since 1999, Mariska follows the clues wherever they lead. Those clues include faces cut out of family photographs and stories about that fatal car crash, which it turns out was survived by the children in the car, including young Mariska. By the end of this documentary, the information she's uncovered upends and rewrites much of what Mariska Hargitay knew about her parents and herself. The first half of My Mom Jane is a somewhat standard well-done biography, but the second half shifts into a wild,

emotional mystery story. Eventually, there's a lot of hugging and a lot of closure, and every bit of it is arrived at honestly. As a first-time documentary filmmaker, Mariska Hargitay has done something special here. But as a daughter telling the unvarnished truth about her parents, she's done something even more impressive.

David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed the documentary My Mom Jane, which premieres on HBO this Friday. Our president said, and I agree, that we must balance our economy. There are problems that we all must face, and luxuries are out of place. JFK, you're right, I'm joining in the fight. I don't want expensive treasures. I prefer the simple pleasures like a Longfellow poem, a Cadillac poem, a villa in Rome or in Spain. I'm just plain Jane. Oh Jane, you you just do marvelous. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Pulitzer Prize-winning fashion critic Robin Gavon joins us to discuss her new book, Make It Ours, Crashing the Gates of Culture with Virgil Abloh.

He traces the late designer's unconventional path to luxury fashion, how he challenged tradition and opened once closed doors, and why she believes he may be one of the last of his kind. I hope you can join us. With Cherry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.