Fresh Air - Film Icons: Elia Kazan / Eva Marie Saint

Episode Date: August 24, 2024

We begin our series celebrating classic movies with Terry Gross' 1988 interview with On the Waterfront director Elia Kazan, as well as a 2020 interview with his granddaughter, actor Zoe Kazan. Plus, we'll hear from the film's romantic lead, actor Eva Marie Saint, who told Fresh Air in 2000 that she got the part after improvising with Marlon Brando.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Sam Bricker. Today, we begin our series celebrating classic movies with a look back at Elia Kazan's 1954 drama On the Waterfront. I could have been a contender. I could have been somebody instead of a bum. The landmark film is an early masterpiece of the post-World War II era of filmmaking. We'll listen back to Terry's interview with the film's director, Elia Kazan, as well as an interview with his granddaughter, actor Zoe Kazan.

Plus, we'll hear how the film's romantic lead, actor Eva Marie Saint, got the part after improvising with Marlon Brando. We were dancing. We were laughing. I was crying. He was taking my skirt and whipping it around. And the sparks flew. And Kazan saw that. And suddenly I was on the waterfront. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. NPR brings you the updates you need on the day's biggest headlines. The Senate narrowly passed the debt ceiling bill that will prevent the country from defaulting on its loans. Stories from across the world.

Knowing how to forage and to live with the land is integral to Amis culture. And down your block. From CPR News, this is Colorado Matters. And you can find all of that and more in your pocket. Download the NPR app today. Hey, it's Aisha Roscoe from NPR's Up First podcast. I'm one of thousands of NPR Network voices coming to you from over 200 local newsrooms across the country. We bring all Americans closer together through free and independent journalism, music, politics, culture, and so much more. The NPR Network. What you hear changes everything. Learn more at npr.org slash network. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Sam Brigger.

Today we begin our summer film series with a tribute to the 1954 drama On the Waterfront. To start today's show, we have Terry Gross's 1988 interview with Ilya Kazan. He directed Marlon Brando in A Street Car Named Desire and On the Waterfront, and directed East of Eden, Splendor in the Grass, Baby Doll, A Face in the Crowd, and The Last Tycoon. Kazan had an equally important career in the theater. In the 1930s, he worked with the Group Theater, where he followed the vision of Lee Strasberg and learned the style of acting that became known as The Method. He later co-founded the Actor's Studio with Strasberg. Many of Kazan's friends and colleagues never forgave him for naming names when he was called before the House Un-American Activities Committee in 1952, in the era when

people accused of being communists lost their jobs. For many years, Kazan refused to publicly address the subject, but he broke his silence in his autobiography, Iliad Kazan, A Life. Terry spoke with Kazan in 1988 when the book was published. Iliad Kazan, welcome to Fresh Air. John Ford advised you when you switched from theater to movies to direct films as if they were silent films, to really use pictures to tell the story. Yet, you have directed some of the most memorable scenes of dialogue in film history, and I find that a kind of interesting irony. That's true. It's just my background, Terry. I mean, I do come from the theater, and I

have always directed dialogue scenes, and Jack came out of our movies. He directed two reelers and westerns and so on. And it was natural for him to say what he did. But it was a lesson to me. And I tried to make a film that would stand, would be clear and stand on its own despite not having the dialogue, without the dialogue, put it that way.

And I used to watch Jack shoot and talk to him sometimes on weekends. And I got a lot out of him, how swift you can be and that the audience doesn't need to know quite as much as it had to know in the theater. I want to talk with you specifically about some of the movies you've directed and some of the scenes within those films. Let's start with A Streetcar Named Desire. Now, you actually really discovered Marlon Brando for the stage version of that, which you directed before directing the film. What did you want him to audition for the role in the stage version? Well, there was no audition. I had produced a play with Harold Klerman where he played a part, and he played like a five-, six-minute scene,

and he was stupendous, and he was marvelous in it. That was his audition. He didn't know it. But then when we lost John Garfield, and I began to think who really would be good as Stanley Kowalski, I thought of Marlon and gave him 20 bucks to go up and see Tennessee Williams up at the Cape. I learned later he hadn't showed up, but he'd hitchhiked and used the $20 to eat with.

But anyway, Williams took to him immediately. He called me up. He was ecstatic. He was overwhelmed, and that's all the audition there was. When I think of all the actors and all the people in general who have imitated Brando doing Stella, I mean, untold numbers of people. What went on when you were directing him in that scene? In that scene? Yeah. I just told him

to get on his knees at the bottom of the staircase, but I didn't tell him what to do with his voice or how he should shout it. He just knew. Many, many things with him, many, many times with him, he was ahead of me. That is, he understood what I said and understood it better than I said it. And I hardly had to tell him anything. Once I said, you fall on your knees, and he did.

And that's all there was to it. How many takes did you do of that scene? How many takes did I do? I think two. And you knew you had it? Yeah. Well, you couldn't mistake it, could you, really? That tone of voice.

I mean, people have imitated it and shouted it and, you know, spin on comedy shows and everything. It's just once in a decade a voice like that comes out. Now, you directed Brando again three years later in On the Waterfront. I found out in your book that it was initially supposed to be Frank Sinatra in the role. Yeah, he would have been damn good, too, but not as good as Brando. I don't think anybody's as good as Brando, but Frank would have been very good. Frank comes from Hoboken, and he's a street kid too, and he's tough, and he would have been good, and he's tough the way Brando's tough. He's got a tough exterior

and knows what to do with his fists and so on, but he also has a very poetic and romantic side that comes out in his songs, of course. Anyway, I was ready to do it with Frank, but one thing led to another in the contracting, and also in Frank's schedule. He had to be somewhere at a certain time. I've forgotten the details of it, and we switched to Brando. Brando in that movie really has this combination

of strength and vulnerability right Terry you hit it what did you talk with him about when he took on the role about what characteristics you wanted him to get in there just that I said he keeps a tough front towards everybody

but he feels his guilt about Eva Marie Saint's brother terribly that it kills him he can't get rid of it. And he really would like to be out of the gangster hoodlum world and didn't like what they did to him because they humiliate him. And the part Lee Carr played constantly humiliated him, made him appear like a cheap kid.

And I told him that he would resent that and not show it for a while and then release it as the film went on. I want to play another one of the most famous scenes in movie history. And this is the I Could Have Been a Contender scene. Now, in your book, you're very self-effacing about it you say that you've been highly praised for the direction of the scene but the truth is you didn't really direct it it kind of directed itself

I don't truly believe that so let's hear the scene I'll say one thing about it for you the scene is good for several reasons but one reason is because it was beautifully written by Bud Schulberg it's a perfectly written scene and in a kind of a tough language that is poetic in itself. That's all.

And the scene is played by Marlon Brando and Rod Steiger. Right. That skunk we got you for the manager, he brought you along too fast. It wasn't him, Charlie. It was you. You remember that night in the garden, you down my dressing room and said kid this ain't your night we're going for the price on wilson you remember that this ain't your night my night i could have taken wilson apart so what happens he gets the title shot outdoors in a ballpark,

and what do I get? A one-way ticket to Palookaville. You was my brother, Charlie. You should have looked out for me a little bit. You should have taken care of me just a little bit so I wouldn't have to take them dives for the short-end money. I had some bets down for you. You saw some money.

You don't understand. I could have had class. I could have been a contender. I could have had class. I could have been a contender. I could have been somebody instead of a bum, which is what I am. Let's face it. It was you, Charlie.

There's a musicality in the way those two actors read their lines that is really something. Did you work with them on that? No. I didn't direct that scene much. I didn't direct that scene really. By that time in the shooting schedule, both Rod and Marlon knew what they had.

And then the lines themselves are so beautifully written. Instead of a bum, which is what I am, that's the way those people talk. They're perfectly written lines, and Marlon naturally took to them. You know, it's great. It's your classic talking head scene.

It's two guys in a cab. In the rear-view window, there's actually a Venetian blind, so you can't even see the traffic coming through. There isn't any. Yeah, so it's just two guys talking. If we had traffic, Terry, it would have been a distraction, wouldn't it? Don't you think so? Yeah, no, I think you're right, because you're just totally focused on their faces and on what they're saying. Right. You have really taken pride in directing actors who are encouraged to ask questions about what they're doing.

Yes. What kind of questions did Brando ask you about this role? Any questions? Very, very little. I think we had an instinctive fraternity. I think we understood each other almost from the word go very well. And we would talk a lot about other things, but not a hell of a lot about the role. This role is written thoroughly when he says

taking dives, Palookaville, all that. It's written very thoroughly and beautifully. He didn't need much instruction. I wasn't kidding in the book. I wasn't being falsely modest. I think I'm a damn good director and have been a damn good director, but in this scene, I didn't direct in the book. I wasn't being falsely modest. I think I'm a damn good director and have been a damn good director. But in this scene, I didn't direct that scene much.

Very little. I just put them there and so on. A lot of the extras in On the Waterfront were actually longshoremen. Right, and hoodlums. And hoodlums, yeah. So you had a bodyguard in the making of the movie? I had a bodyguard six feet behind me at all times. Well, there were some rough characters all around me, and they were taking offense that we showed Hoboken, for example, for a bad place.

And they were offended. I laughed at that. But anyway, they had civic pride. That's what made me laugh. I thought they had civic pride. But nobody threatened me. Once a fellow came and slammed me against the wall and was going to beat me up,

but then the bodyguard and another friend named Brownie came up, and that was the end of that threat. We're listening to Terry's 1988 interview with director Ilya Kazan. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Sam Brigger, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Truth, independence, fairness, transparency, respect, excellence. This is NPR. Hey there, this is Felix Contreras, one of the co-hosts of Alt Latino, the podcast from NPR Music where we discuss Latinx culture, music, and heritage with the artists that create it.

Listen now to the Alt Latino podcast from NPR. Let's talk more about acting and your style of directing. Now, you were a member of the group theater in the mid-30s and a co-founder of the Actor's Studio. These are the two places where what's been called The Method was born. How would you describe The Method, and do you think of yourself as subscribing to it? The Method has to do with a retreat from artificial emotionalism, where emotion is conveyed by signs and gestures

and voice patterns and so forth, but where, on the other hand, it's actually felt by the actor. He actually feels it, the emotion that he's portraying. It's there in him, and there are techniques which are obvious. They're not so complicated and not so mysterious for arousing emotion by remembering certain things in yourself so that the scene becomes, in a sense, a part of your life. Do you think of yourself as directing with the method?

I think I do, yes. I think I try to get the real thing out of actors, and I try to stop them from what we call indicating or gesturing, suggesting a scene by the way they are. In England, they do it differently. The voice is very important there. Well, they have different kinds of plays there, and I don't think that I'm any good to direct Shakespeare

or George Bernard Shaw or any play that depends on the way lines are read, I think I'm only good when somehow or other the play relates to my own experience. And to the experience of the actor who's playing it. That's correct. Right, Terry. Let me quote something you say about Strasberg style. You say that in life people conceal their feelings, but with Strasberg's pupils they brandished their emotions as if that were the only true measure of talent.

He encouraged that so that whoever would feel, Strasberg, their teacher would feel, and I would feel as the person directing many of them, that they had great intensity and that they were noteworthy for their violence. So that you felt, God, I've got to see that. But the plays that we did at that time were also plays of that type. They were plays where intense emotion rather than coolness and charm and wit and the rest of it were important. I wish the people in the studio had more wit and charm, but you can't have everything in life, and they contributed markedly and importantly to the kind of play that we did. Is there a danger in that kind of acting

where you're really experiencing the emotions of going over the top? Yes, there is, Terry. That's right. So how do you draw the line in that? How do you measure? The director draws the line, Terry. The director says, I've got it. That's enough. Don't go on with it.

So how do you bring someone back down if they're going over the top? Just look at them. That's enough. Don't go on with it. So how do you bring someone back down if they're going over the top? Just look at them. Tell them less. They understand right away. You stop the scene and you go back and you do things that will anchor them. In other words, by suggesting certain realistic things. For example, if people start yelling, you say,

the house next door can hear you. Try to do it so the house next door doesn't hear you. Do you understand? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me quote something and get your reaction to what you've said. When I hear the term master class, I want to vomit. Well, that's because so much of teaching has become a, well, in a sense, a racket. In other words, so much money is made teaching 40, 50 people how to act, and that's all right.

That can be valuable. There are some wonderful teachers. Sanford Meisner was one. Bobby Lewis, a fine teacher. And Stella Adler was a fine teacher. But then there's a whole lot of other people that teach hundreds of people and it's just one one thing that happens is that say it's a distinction to be in their in their class or in their what they call in their group and when I that's when you hear master class. Nobody's a master.

Acting is, like all art, a variant. It's a mysterious thing. Sometimes this method is good for the play you're working on. Sometimes it's not. You always have to allow for human variance and ambivalences. Ilya Kazan is my guest, and he's written an autobiography titled A Life. Now, your autobiography is really the first time you've publicly addressed why you named names during the HUAC hearings in the 1950s. And I was wondering why you were ready

to talk about it now. For years, when you were interviewed, people would ask you about it, and you just wouldn't want to talk about it. People have written in their autobiographies how they felt about you naming names, but you've never publicly addressed it until now. The reason I felt okay about it now was that I always hesitated to do it because I wanted to make it part of my whole life. In other words, so that everything that happened before had some way or other, not for others, but for me, led up to it.

And, for example, I put in the scene where the man from Detroit came and attacked me in front of my group. I put in the scene where we're trying to do a picture in Mexico, and the communists there prevented us from doing it for their reasons. I put in other references so that by the time I got to it, you felt I'd been through certain experiences that would at least motivate me, if no one else, into doing that. Well, my understanding is that you decided to talk for two reasons. One was that you felt that when you were a member of a communist group that the actors were really exploited by the party. And also that you didn't want to give up your career, that you'd really thought about it,

and you decided that writers could write while they were in prison, but directors couldn't do anything in prison, and directors couldn't do anything if they were shut out of the industry. Yeah, something like that, but not exactly. I thought, you know, I love my work, and it means everything to me. It's my whole life, really, except my family, my family, and my work. Those are the two things I have. And I thought, why should I give up my career for something I don't believe in? I don't believe in. I don't believe in it.

And if people who are communists are still going to attack me and still feel that they don't want to talk about it, I also feel that they're in the hell with them. I also feel that any country, for example, England and France, any country has the right to investigate something like what's going on in this country. And the only trouble with our committee was that two of the fellows lied to me. They told me that I was in an executive session where I'd be talking privately. And it turned out they were running with the news to Hollywood gossip columnists and everything else.

So I lost my respect for them, too. There are many people who have been in your life who have never forgiven you for naming names and have certainly never forgotten it. Did you expect this decision to stay with you throughout your life in the way that it has? No, you have to believe me, Terry, I don't give a darn about that. Uh-huh.

I only am concerned, really, whether I respect myself. I thought a very long time about it. I thought very hard about it. And I made a difficult choice. Both ways would have been difficult for me. Have you had second thoughts about the choice you made? Not really, no. I wish they'd done it.

I wish they'd named me. I think if the whole bunch of us had come out and said, we did have a communist cell, so what? I don't think they would have been worse off. I think it would have been clear the air. But, of course, except for the three I did talk to, none of them, they didn't do it. Ilya Kazan is my guest.

I want to get to something you say at the very, very end of your book. You say that when you die, you don't want a big memorial shindig with lots of speeches. You want a big party, but no speeches, and you want everyone that you've ever known invited, including even your enemies if they're still alive. Why do you want that?

Well, because I really am an old-fashioned family type Mediterranean man. I do like my family enormously. I have a great big family. I have five grandchildren, one more on the way. I have five children. I have step enormously. I have a great big family. I have five grandchildren, one more on the way. I have five children. I have stepchildren.

I have all kinds of friends that I've had through the years. Not alienated, the opposite. They've come closer and closer. And I just want to say to them, thank you very much for what you've given me in the way of experience and happiness. And here, have a party. And there are all my sweaters and books and things.

Help yourself. You've left money in your will for this party. Yep. Why do you want all your enemies to come? Why not? I don't feel about them. Things heal, don't they, after a while? I think so.

Anyway, I don't have any bad feeling about anybody. I'm very happy at the moment. I'm very proud of this book. It's called A Life. I'm very proud of this book. It's called A Life. I'm very proud of it. I think it's a marvelous book, and I think in time when anybody wants to look back in the 50s and 60s and 70s in American public culture,

they will have to read this book. And I think it's a landmark kind of book. So I'm proud I did it. I also did it before I got too old landmark kind of book so I'm proud I did it. I also did it before I got too old to remember anything so I'm glad I did that too. Okay. I bet you wish you could be around to watch this party when it happens. I would. I would. I hope there's good liquor there. That's all. I hope nobody gets a hangover. Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you, Terry. You've been very nice. Oh, I enjoyed feel you really read the book, which I haven't felt about everybody.

Oh, well, thank you. I enjoyed it very much. Terry Gross speaking with filmmaker Ilya Kazan in 1988. He died in 2003 at the age of 94. Kazan's granddaughter is Zoe Kazan. Now we're going to listen to an excerpt of Terry's interview with her from 2020. At the time, she was starring in the HBO miniseries The Plot Against America, based on the novel by Philip Roth. The story rewrites a turning point in American history. It's set in the early 1940s. FDR has lost the election to Charles Lindbergh, who is considered an American hero because he was the first pilot to fly across the Atlantic. But he's also anti-Semitic. He admires Hitler and won't enter World War II to fight the Nazis. The story focuses on a Jewish family in Newark,

New Jersey. Zoe Kazan plays Bess, a wife and mother. The family is targeted for a Lindbergh administration program to relocate Jews to the so-called heartland under the pretense of helping Jews assimilate and integrate into America. Terry asked Zoe Kazan if she had looked back to her grandfather's controversial testimony as a reference point for this role. Are there ways in which the story of the plot against America connects with your family? And I'm thinking here, like your grandfather, Elia Kazan, who was a great director, Streetcar Named Desire, on the waterfront. He was called to testify in 1952 before the House on American Activities Committee during the communist witch hunting era, the Joe McCarthy era. And he named some names of Hollywood actors. He gave up names.

And, you know, he was a Greek immigrant and he was accused of possibly being un-American. It was the House Un-American Activities Committee. And of course, in Plot Against America, the Jews are basically considered by President Lindbergh to be un-American because if they weren't un-American, why would they have to be relocated in order to better assimilate into America? That's right. So I'm wondering if you were thinking about connections between the story and your family, specifically your immigrant grandfather or grandparents.

Yeah, grandfather. My grandmother was like a Mayflower American. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, of course I was. I think it's a really apt question. And I want to say that I don't normally like answering questions about my grandfather, particularly about his experiences with the HUAC hearings, partially because it happened so long before I was born. And I by no means feel like an expert, partially because it's such a terrible chapter in our country's history. And I feel a morbid fear of getting something wrong or hurting further the victims of those hearings or their families. And also because my family, the large majority of my family,

are incredibly private people who have chosen very private lives. And I never want to feel like a spokesperson for them or that I'm betraying their trust or anything of that nature. And that's why it makes me emotional sometimes to talk about it. I think that the parallels are right there, and I couldn't help but think of my own family history. I mean, frankly, I think I wouldn't be much of an actor if I didn't think about it. You know, it's a strong personal connection to the material.

I thought very deeply about my grandparents and their choices and what it must have meant to them to be in that position and and frankly it helped me uh i think take one step in my like personal maturation and actually playing this role and working on this material sort of helped me take steps into a I think a more adult viewpoint how did playing the role make you take steps to a more adult viewpoint of your grandfather and what what what is that viewpoint well I think what I'm trying to talk about is being able to have love for him and also think critically about his actions. I don't just mean to criticize his actions. I mean to think critically about them. And to let a more complicated reality exist in my mind.

You know, I was on set playing scenes with Winona Ryder, who's playing my sister, who my character best loves very much and also really believes that her sister is not just betraying their people, but also endangering her family. And, you know, it just allowed me space to explore critical thought and draw those parallels that I think are there to be drawn. And I think probably a more adult viewpoint is one that allows contradiction and allows contradiction to exist without being resolved. So you're not seeing your grandfather now in terms of like, he was just your loving grandfather, or he was a bad guy because he named names to the House Un-American Activities Committee, you see his position as being more complicated, more ambiguous, and you're trying to kind of embrace the full 360 degrees of his actions as opposed to just seeing one view or another? I guess so. I mean, I think it's more

complicated than that. But yes, I think that's one way of putting it. Put it better for me. I mean, Terry, when I was a little girl, I didn't understand sort of that he was a famous director and watching his movies for the first time with my parents at 10 or 11 or whatever. Like that, that wasn't a lot to take in right there. And then, you know, when I was 15, he received his honorary Oscar. And there was a lot of protest over that. And it was very visible. And classmates were asking me about it at school. And at that point, I had never studied the HUAC trials in school. I knew very little about them. This is really pre-internet in a lot of ways. So, you know, my father, who is always trying to tell me the truth about things,

was very, I think, factual with me and level with me about what had happened. I appreciate in retrospect how clear he was with me. But when you see protesters, you know, protesting the grandfather you love, that's a complicated thing to take in and understand as a child, right? And I think as a result, it was for a long time very difficult for me to think critically about it. I think I often thought like, oh, one day I'll, like one day I'll be able to think more critically about that, but not now. And I think that over the years, like I came to a more complicated viewpoint. So it's not like this was like a sudden tearing away of the wool from my eyes or anything, but this is the first time

that I allowed myself a lot of time and space to think about it. And like I said, to be going to work every day and working on scenes where using those feelings, those complicated feelings helped feed the scene. But yeah, I think a complicated rumination was something that I probably needed to do. And I was really grateful to have the opportunity on this. When you think of the complications of when your grandfather was called before HUAC and asked to name names, he's been so criticized for having given up names. Do you wonder what would have happened to your father and to your grandmother, had he not named names and had he either been sent to jail or had his career crushed as a result? Like what impact would that have had on the family?

Do you think about that? Of course I think about it. I think about it because I think about what happened to the families of the people whose names were named. And I think about it because I think about the untenable position that he was put in. And I think about it because of what he did. Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably the moral thing to do, to consider what would have happened on the other if a different choice had been made. But I also can't imagine, right? Because it's unknown. Actor Zoe Kazan speaking with Terry Gross in 2020. Coming up, we hear from Eva Marie Saint.

She won an Oscar for her role in On the Waterfront. I'm Sam Brigger, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Today, we're paying tribute to the 1954 film On the Waterfront. Now we're going to listen to Terry's interview with actor Eva Marie Saint. She starred opposite Marlon Brando in On the Waterfront and won an Academy Award for her portrayal of his convent-reared girlfriend. Later, she and Cary Grant teamed up for Alfred Hitchcock's North by Northwest. Terry spoke to Eva Marie Saint in 2000. She asked her how she got the part in On the Waterfront. I had been doing many, many, many, many live shows on television.

And at one point, I did Trip to Bountiful, the Horton Foote play. First, it was a television. Then he rewrote it as a play with Lillian Gish. And Kazan saw me in that part. Martin Juro, my agent, sent Kazan to see me in that, and he saw it and thought of me as the young virginal blonde in On the Waterfront. And I didn't read for it. I improvised with Marlon Brando. And it was an interesting improvisation

because to this day, I don't know what he told Marlon. But he did tell me that I was at home and a young man was coming to visit my sister who was not at home. So my job was to keep him out of that house. Don't let him in the door. Well, I don't know what happened, but he went in the door. He came in the living room. We were dancing. We were laughing. I was crying. He was taking my skirt and whipping it around. And the sparks flew. And Kazan saw that, and suddenly I was on the waterfront.

Were you used to improvising? Oh, yes. I was from the actor studio. I'd been studying there. I was there about seven years, all total, and I'd seen Marlon there, but I'd never worked with him. I actually worked with Lee Strasberg, and of course Kazan was there, too. Had you seen Brando in anything before starring with him? Yes, I'd seen his movies, and I'm never in awe of another actor because it's all the same business.

Some actors are fine actors, some not quite fine actors, good actors. I'm never in awe of anyone in our profession. I'm in awe of musicians or painters, but I was impressed. And he was adorable. And he was a prince. And he knew it was my first film.

It was very cold in Hoboken. That's where you shot it? Yeah, excuse me, on the waterfront. Yeah, in Hoboken on the waterfront right there. And it was very cold. And he was always giving me a jacket to put over my shoulders. And I was skiing at the time. So underneath my virginal navy blue dress, I had red long johns on. So when the morale was low, I threw up my dress and started doing the

can-can draw on the long shore. That'd be very out of character for your character in the movie. True. I'm glad. I don't think Kazan saw me because he liked everyone to stay in character. Well, that's funny. But that got a few laughs. But he was very, very kind, Marlon. We rehearsed constantly, which is what you do on a Kazan film.

Right. Now, in the movie, you have this radiant, pure beauty, but in most of the scenes, you're wearing real schmattes. You're wearing this big drab woolen coat and a kerchief around your head. I still have that kerchief. Do you really? I always say one, I should put it on eBay, right? No, sorry. I usually have one thing from each film, and I have it in a little cellophane bag with a photo of me and Marla, and there I have the kerchief. I'm holding the kerchief. And actually, it was my kerchief, and you know what it was?

It's little squares of Amish carriage, little dark print of an Amish carriage, and it's repeated through the whole little scarf. You know, often in movies, the beautiful young leading lady is quite glamorous, and you're so unglamorously dressed in this. Did it affect how you felt in the role to be wearing this, like, drab coat and the schmata on your head? No. When I was making rounds in New York and the things that I played on live television

were not very glamorous. I think you're thinking of North by Northwest. I wasn't really glamorous until Hitch saw me as a sexy spy lady. And I remember saying to my husband, my God, he sees me as a sexy spy lady. And my husband said, well, so do I. So that made two of them. But I didn't know.

The only thing is it was navy blue. And for some reason, I never, ever wear navy blue. I think I was tired of that dress only thing is it was navy blue, and for some reason I never, ever wear navy blue. I think I was tired of that dress by the time it was over. Everything was navy. The dress was navy. The coat was navy. And in those days, we did wear those kerchiefs over our head. On windy days, cold windy days in New York,

in the 50s, we wore them. They were very practical, actually. So I didn't feel that I wasn't smartly dressed at all. That navy blue with the little collar was a pretty cute dress. I did feel embarrassed in the slip, I must say. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. Now, in this scene, in this scene from On the Waterfront,

you've decided not to see the Brando character anymore. But he's knocking on your door, and you're telling him to stay away. Then you lock the door and chain the door. He breaks into your apartment and finds you in bed wearing this white slip. Let's hear that scene. B. C.

D. See? Stay away from me! Come on, please, open the door, please. Stop it! I want you to stay away from me. I know what you want me to do, but I ain't gonna do it, so forget it. I don't want you to do anything. You let your conscience tell you what to do. Shut up about that conscience. That's all I've been hearing.

I never mentioned the word before. You just stay away from me. Edie, you love me i didn't say i didn't love you i said stay away from me i want you to stay away from me And that silence and then the little squeaking is them kissing passionately after she's attempted in vain to fight him off and then gives in. It's really quite a moment in the film. I mean, you look like you're almost about to faint with being totally overcome by this physical feeling that's very new to you, being in his arms. Let's talk about that scene. How is that kiss staged? How is the kiss staged? Well, we were struggling. We were struggling, and I was hitting his back. And I'm sure it was Kazan who said, just drop that arm at that point. To show that you were giving in, that you were succumbing to your feelings. almost like two animals, isn't it? He was very, Marlon, very, very strong in that.

And she dropped her conscience, didn't she? He overcame her, and yet she had these strong feelings, and he broke through for both of them. And she really did love him. I had trouble, actually, with that scene, because I was in a slip. And in those days, I was very modest. And I felt exposed.

I'd never been in a slip on screen and on television. And the kiss and all of that, it was pretty physical. And I remember just having trouble when Kazan came up to me and he just whispered the name of my husband. He just said, Jeffrey. Well, I'm still married to Jeffrey. It's almost 50 years. And you know, it worked. I mean, that was it. I mean, another director might have struggled with whatever, but he just one word and no one heard it. Marlon didn't hear it. No one heard it. And that's how he worked. And somehow, I just knew that he knew I would relax because he had met my husband if I thought of Jeffrey. And somehow, when he whispered that,

I just relaxed and enjoyed it. There's a scene in this where he's been called downstairs by some of the guys who are out to kill him. And you've chased after him calling his name. And you find him in this narrow alley. And just as you find him and you're running down this alley to meet up with him, a big truck that's as wide as the alley is coming after him and therefore coming after you too. And there's no way you can be in the street without getting hit by this truck. So he breaks into a building and you both rush in, narrowly averting this truck. It's such a beautifully lit scene. You're kind of like in the headlights of the truck, illuminated by it, running for your lives.

Were you aware of the lighting when that shot was being made? You're never aware of the lighting, but it's interesting because when I did see it, it's almost like the hair has a halo, as I remember. It was a very scary scene because it was wet. I had no idea that truck was going to be as close as it was in the scene. There was a place where we had to get out of the way, and Marlon was supposed to open the door. The door wouldn't open. He actually broke that glass, and he actually cut his hand a little bit.

The designated door was not unlocked or was jammed or something. So Marlon Brando is that kind of actor. He broke the glass glass and we got inside just in time. I guess you didn't have to do that scene again. No, no. You won an Oscar for your role in On the Waterfront. And I think four days after winning the Oscar, you gave birth to a son. Two days. Two days. Better story, right? Two days. So those are two big changes in your life happening just about simultaneously. I think for most people, when they get the Academy Award, they want to be at their most glamorous. And you were at your absolute most pregnant.

I'm not sure if you were even able to go to the awards ceremony. Oh, yes. I was sitting there with Jeffrey, and it was in New York. Now it's all in California, but at that time, the New York contingency and the Hollywood contingency, and there was a little jealousy between Hollywood and New York, so we really didn't think there was much of a chance for Waterfront, black and white, made in New York. But we went, and we were all there, and some of the people started winning Oscars. And my dear husband said, now, honey, if they call your name, I want you to sit here and count to 10

and then go up. Well, I heard my name, and I felt this hand on my thigh, pressing my thigh, and I'm smiling and smiling, and I'm really counting to ten, and then I walked up. I didn't rush up. I walked up and accepted the Oscar and said something like, I'm so excited I may have the baby right here, and of course I had two days later. Let's talk about a movie that you made five years after On the Waterfront, North by Northwest, which starred you and Cary Grant. And you play the opposite kind of woman in this, from what you played in On the Waterfront. In this, you're a very glamorous, beautiful spy working undercover, and it's your job both to seduce Cary Grant and

to seduce his nemesis. Why don't we start with a scene from the movie Cary Grant is on the run he's been mistakenly accused of being a murderer he's hiding out on a train he's seated next to you in the dining car and he doesn't know that you're a spy and he doesn't know that you know that he isn't who he pretends to be it's complicated isn't it here's the scene

think how lucky I am to have been seated here It's complicated, isn't it? Here's the scene. I think how lucky I am to have been seated here. Well, luck had nothing to do with it. Fate? I tipped the steward five dollars to seat you here if you should come in. Is that a proposition? I never discuss love on an empty stomach. You've already eaten.

But you haven't. Don't you think it's time we were introduced? I'm Eve Kendall. I'm 26 and unmarried. Now you know everything. Tell me, what do you do besides lure men to their doom on the 20th Century Limited? I'm an industrial designer. Jack Phillips, Western sales manager for Kingby Electronics.

No, you're not. You're Roger Thornhill of Madison Avenue, and you're wanted for murder on every front page in America. Don't be so modest. Oops. Oh, don't worry. I won't say a word. How come? I told you. It's a nice face. Is that the only reason? It's going to be a long night. True. And I don't particularly like the book I've started. Ah. You know what I mean? Oh, let me think. Yes, I know exactly what you mean.

Eva Marie Saint, how did Hitchcock think of you for this very seductive role when you were best known for playing a woman who was very chaste and plain, well, chaste and beautiful, but shy, you know, and on the waterfront? I don't know. I'm glad that he did. I felt very comfortable playing the role. His set was such that everyone who was on the set, you just had the feeling of such confidence because he saw you and he didn't see anyone else. And right, right, you can do this. Sure, you're right. You're the sexiest spy lady.

He didn't give much direction, very different from Kazan. He gave external direction, things like lower your voice, don't use your hands, because I sort of use my hands a lot when I talk, and look directly into Cary Grant's eyes at all times, which was not difficult. But those were the things, and the clothes. He didn't like the clothes that were designed for me, so he took me to New York, and we went to Berghoff Goodman, and he said, anything you want. I used to tease him.

I said, you were the only sugar daddy I ever had in my life. I had none before or none after. That afternoon, I felt like I had a sugar daddy. Whatever you want, Eva Marie. And so I took the black dress with the red roses. Remember that? I love that and some other things. Let's talk about the Mount Rushmore scene where you and Cary Grant are

escaping from the people who are out to get you. And you're scaling Mount Rushmore or what I imagine was a sculpture version, a miniature version of Mount Rushmore. What were you actually climbing on? We were climbing at, by the way, two weeks after I gave birth. Oh, you're kidding. No, no, no. Well, at that time, people didn't gain, the doctors didn't want women to gain more than 21 pounds. So once you have your nine-pound baby, there's not much left. But that was at MGM in the studio. And it was very, very high, and it was made of

artificial material to make it look like Mount Rushmore. And it was high. I know, listen, an actor who had trouble with heights would have had a difficult time, but I was pretty athletic in high school and college, and I ski and all that, so I was in good shape, even though I'd had a baby, to climb that darn mountain. And I didn't have any fears, but once we started climbing and I happened to look down and I saw that the prop man was putting all these mattresses around the perimeter of Mount Rushmore, and I thought, oh, my God, that's right. We could actually fall, couldn't we?

And I remember at one point taking off my heels. As prepared as Hitchcock was, he didn't say, now, even once you get started, you take off those heels. Well, sure enough, I finally took off those heels after I broke a heel on one of the shoes. But you're climbing in your heels for part of it, aren't you? I know, for a lot of it, yeah. And Cary Grant was older, and I thought, well, if he can do it, I can do it. But someone pointed out at one point I was really ahead of him.

I was pulling him, or at least I was ahead. Eva Marie Saint, speaking to Terry Gross in 2000. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Joel Wolfram, and Monique Nazareth.

Our digital media producers are Molly C.V. Nesper and Sabrina Seward. Our archives producer is Nick Anderson. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm Sam Brigger. Who's claiming power this election? What's happening in battleground states? And why do we still have the Electoral College? All this month, the ThruLine podcast is asking big questions about our democracy and going back in time to answer them. Listen now to the ThruLine podcast from NPR. Here at NPR, independence means journalism that's never influenced by politics,

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