Fresh Air - 'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

The Emmy and Peabody Award-winning comedy series returns for a fourth season this week. It's about two women — a successful comic/TV personality in her 70s, and her 20-something comedy writer — and the generational clashes that ensue. We're revisiting interviews with stars Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder, and Paul W. Downs who co-created the series and plays their manager. Also, film critic Justin Chang reviews Warfare, a movie about U.S. Navy SEALs.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

You have your job, but you also have a life. And you're not just one thing. Neither is the Here and Now Anytime podcast. Every weekday, we break down the biggest story of the day and something else, like a new trend everyone's talking about. It's Here and Now Anytime, a daily podcast from NPR and WBUR. This is Fresh Air. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. Hacks, the very funny TV series about an older Vegas-style stand-up comic

and the generational differences between her and her younger comedy writer, returned to HBO Max last night for its fourth season. Today we feature our interviews with Gene Smart, who stars as Deborah Vance, the older comic, with Hannah Einbinder, who plays her young comedy writer, Ava, and with Paul W. Downs, who co-created, co-writes, and co-stars as their talent manager, Jimmy. As the new season begins, Deborah and Ava are embarking on new jobs. Deborah, as the first female host of a Big Three Network late-night show, and Ava are embarking on new jobs. Deborah as the first female host of a Big Three network late night show and Ava as her head writer. It's a job she got by defying Deborah, which

changes their dynamic dramatically. Deborah makes that clear on day one when she walks unannounced into Ava's new office. Well, aren't you a big brave girl? I guess I am. It's for the best. We'll see. That's what's happening now on Hacks, but let's go back to the beginning

and start with Gene Smart, who spoke with Terry Gross when the show premiered on Max in 2021. Smart's comedic timing was obvious in the 1980s sitcom Designing Women, and again in the early 2000s, when she won two Emmys for her guest starring role on Frasier. More recently, she's played some pretty tough women in the TV series Fargo and Legion,

and in the HBO crime drama Mayor of Easttown. When Hacks begins, the career of Deborah Vance is in decline. In an attempt to save her career, Jimmy pairs her with a young woman comedy writer, Ava, whom he also manages. Neither wants to meet with the other, but they do, and Ava reluctantly flies to Vegas to meet with Deborah. At one of their first meetings, they do, and Ava reluctantly flies to Vegas to meet with Deborah. At one of their first meetings, Deborah tells Ava the jokes she's written for her aren't

funny. Then, Deborah asks if Ava is a lesbian. Ava responds that Deborah is her employer, which makes it inappropriate for her to ask. And then Ava goes on to describe, in graphic detail, her sexual experiences with women and men, and concludes by telling Deborah this. So, anyway, I'm bi. Jesus Christ, I was just wondering why you were dressed like Rachel Maddow's mechanic.

Great. So, the jokes? You didn't like any? They're not jokes. I mean, they're like thought poems. I had a horrible nightmare that I got a voicemail. What? It's funny because voicemails are annoying.

It's like, just text. First of all, if you start a sentence with it's funny because, it is probably not. And second, jokes need a punchline. Well, in my opinion, traditional joke structure is very male. It's so focused on the ending. It's all about the climax. Oh, look who's talking. I just got a TED talk about yours. Jean Smart, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. You're terrific in

this as you've been. Thank you. Yeah, for so long. So, you know, you've done a lot of comedy, but this is the first time you've played a comic. Do you have any favorite jokes of the bad jokes that your character tells? Um... Because they're both funny and bad at the same time.

Uh, oh, sure. I mean, I don't think her jokes is bad necessarily. It's just that she's sort of got her stock style of jokes. She knows her audience really well. And she knows what they expect and what they don't want to hear from her. And she gives them what they pay for you know I mean as risque as she gets that is probably the first joke we hear out of her mouth at the very beginning of the show

where you can just kind of hear her before we even see her face where she talks about being in bed with a guy who keeps saying you know are you close are you close and she says yeah I'm close I'm close I'm close to getting a buzz cut, a flannel shirt, and finally accepting Melissa Etheridge's dinner invite. I love that joke. Are there things you related to about the generational conflict in this? You know, because the young comic who starts writing for your character thinks of herself as so cutting edge and a little transgressive. And she really has some kind of contempt for your character because it represents everything that the younger comic doesn't want to be.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you know, she she thinks I'm a dinosaur, which I am in a way. But Deborah's attitude, I think, is a little bit that Ava's generation has thrown the baby out with the bath water and that all they want to do is shock people into laughing. And that's much easier to do than to come up with something kind of clever that actually makes people laugh, not just out of shock. And so, you know, she, it's just sort of funny to watch them, you know, navigate this, they come from completely different worlds, or at least seemingly at first. And Hannah actually is the stand-up comic.

So I was a little bit intimidated at first. I'm thinking, because she's playing the writer, I'm playing the comic, and she's an actual stand-up comic. Yeah, that's been the fun part is just their conflict. That's just, and the fact that I just get to abuse her horribly. You've played like brassy, cynical, sarcastic women in comedies and in dramas.

In Entertainment Weekly, you were described as the reigning Meryl Streep of tough broad types. So I want to play an example of that and this is from your role in Fargo when you played the matriarch of a crime family that controls Fargo and you've taken over from your husband after he had a debilitating stroke. Meanwhile, the Kansas City Mafia made an offer to take over your operation. And in this scene, you meet the gangster representing the Kansas City family, and you make a counteroffer, an offer for a partnership between their family and your crime family. So in this scene, you're laying out the terms of your deal and then warn him not to underestimate you.

And the mobster from Kansas City is played by Brad Garrett. You speak first. Now, I don't know. Maybe when you look at me, you see an old woman. And I am 61. I've born six children, had three miscarriages. Two of my sons are here today, two were stillborn. My firstborn, Eloran, killed in Korea. Sniper took off at his head.

The point is... Don't assume, just because I'm an old woman, that my back is weak and my stomach's not strong. I make this counter because the deal is always better than war. But no mistake, we'll fight to keep what's ours to the last man. You're a good woman. I wish I'd known your husband. No. My husband would have killed you where you stood the first time you met. So I'll be glad you're talking to his wife.

You must have loved that speech when you read it. Oh, I did. That was the speech they gave me to audition with for Noah. And I said that tells me so much about this person. So I read that initially, when you got the part and wardrobe came out and the hairdresser came out that you looked at yourself in the mirror and you actually burst into tears. What was the problem? What were you seeing in the mirror? Well, I mean, I was very much, it was very much a collaboration. The costume designer

and I had great fun coming up with the sort of less than attractive but very practical wardrobe. And then I suggested with the hair that they give me one of those kind of poodle perms that women of a certain age wore, especially back then, I know my mother did for a while, because they're just less maintenance. So I said, let's just get the blonde out of my hair and cut it shorter and give it a little, give it a perm. And the first time I looked at it, my eyes started welling up.

I thought, oh my God. But I said, it's perfect. There she is. There's Floyd. There she is. There's Floyd. There she is. Kate Winslet plays Mayor Sheehan, who's a police detective trying to solve a murder. But there's a lot going on in her personal life.

Her son died by suicide, leaving behind his young son, who Mayor is raising because the boy's mother has been in rehab. You're Mayor's mother, and you've moved in with Mayor to help her raise the grandson. You're a-grandson, but you and Mare are afraid that you're about to lose custody because the boy's mother is getting out of rehab, you've been trying to prepare him for the likelihood he'll be returning to his mother, and that's made Mare very angry with you because she wants to keep custody. And let's hear

a clip in which she's showing how angry she is that you're trying to prepare him to go back to his mother. Why are you telling him he might have to go live with his mom? Because he might have to go live with his mom. He's four years old, Mom. We don't know what's going to happen, all right? Don't be telling him stuff like that. He's lived in this house his entire life, Mom. That's why we need to prepare him. Otherwise he'll feel like the ground has just fallen out beneath him. I called Kathy Dreier's today.

You did what? She works over the Child and Youth Services. I know where Kathy Dreier's works. Why the hell are you calling her? Because I want to find out how this whole custody thing works. That is not your place, Mom. She told me. Everyone has a place to stay.

It's so out of line for you to be telling him stuff like that, Mom. She's clean and takes her meds. She is his mother! place as a mother! She's the mother. She'll get custody. And there's not a damn thing you or I can do about it. I'll figure something out. What's there to figure out?

Hello? You're not his guardian. I know that! Mom! You're just saying that! Stay out of it, okay? Understand me? Hello? You're not his guardian. I know that! Mom! You're just saying that! Stay out of it, okay? Understand me?

Wow, that's really good in this. How did you get the part? They offered it to me. It was lovely. And I said, HBO, Kate Winslet, unless I really hate the part, I'll say yes right now. But I love their relationship because even though it's a bit dysfunctional, I hope that there is, that it comes across to the audiences that there is still love and respect there between them. They've been through so much.

So, Merrivistown is set in Delora County, Pennsylvania, just outside of Philadelphia. And Delora County has some pretty wealthy neighborhoods and some working class suburbs. You probably saw this or at least heard about it, that Saturday Night Live did a parody of the accents. Did you see it, of the accents on the Arab East town? Kate said it to me.

Yeah, and she's the one who got the brunt of the, It was hilarious. Of the satire in this. And the premise of the show is that instead of saying murder and daughter because of the, the perhaps overly exaggerated Philadelphia accents, it's like, I can't even do it right,

mortar and thworder. Yeah, you do it, you do it. Well, I don't know quite where they were going with some of it, but yes, they called it murder-dur-dur, murder-daughter. But yes, they called it murder-der-der, murder-daughter. But yes, like one of the examples of that accent is the way they say water. It's water, like almost like W-O-O-D-E-R, you know, give me a glass of water. So did you have like an accent coach?

Oh yes. No, we had a couple wonderful dialect coaches. Mine was a native from the area and she was extremely helpful. Extremely helpful and I would put my lines on a loop tape and just on my phone and just fall asleep listening to it. I'd sometimes I'd use my right ear so it would get in the left side of my phone and just fall asleep listening to it. I'd sometimes I'd use my right ear so it would get in the left side of my brain and sometimes I'd listen with my left ear so it would get in the right side of my brain and I'd listen to it on the way to work and because you want it to be as automatic as possible

because if you're thinking about it while you're doing your lines and you're not thinking about the right things which you're supposed to be thinking about, what your character's supposed to be thinking about. That's the hard part of doing accents, but it's always fun to do accents. So I'm going to squeeze in one more clip. This is from Frasier. This is the role that you won two Emmys for, and you're hilarious in this.

So for people who don't know, this is from Frasier. Frasier is a psychiatrist who has a radio advice call and show. And you played Lana Lindley, who was one of the most popular and pretty girls in high school. And Frasier had a crush on you. And now years later, you run into each other at a cafe. And you're a fan of his radio show.

You hit it off. And you end up spending the night together. And this is like Frasier's high school dream come true. And in the morning, you wake it off, and you end up spending the night together. And this is like Frazier's high school dream come true. And in the morning, you wake up in his bed, you still have a glass of wine on the night table next to you, which you used in the scene I'm about to play to swallow some pills later in the scene. You'll hear a reference to that, but you won't be able to see it. And so you wake up in the morning together, things are still dreamy between the two of

you until, okay, here is the scene, you speak first. Um, I had a wonderful time last night. Me too. It was like being back in high school. But with sex. I don't want this to end. Must warn you, now that I've learned to finally ask you out, I'll be doing a lot more of it. Are you free this evening? You see, there I go already.

How about tomorrow night? Somebody stop me. Not me. I wonder what time it is. Oh. Ten o'clock. Oh, crap! I'm late! Is there something I can do?

Oh yeah, make this lousy hangover go away. What the hell are those aspirin? Oh. You know, perhaps I should get you a glass of water for those. Would you prefer sparkling or still? Or not. I see you're fine.

Oh, I'm sorry, Did you want to finish this? No, no. You're the guest. Yeah, it's me. I'm running late. Move my 10-30 to 11-30. Just move it to 11-30! I didn't realize you smoked. Oh, yeah, I'm always trying to quit, but my weight just balloons up. I mean, trust me, you don't want to see my ass when I'm off these things. You know, I hate to be a fos-pot, but I'd prefer...

Yeah. Well, who let the dog in? Put your brother on. Put your brother on! Put your brother on! Oh, will you be a sweetie and make me some coffee? Okay. You know, that mess better be cleaned up by the time I get home.

Both of you! Put your brother on. Put your brother on! Put your brother on. Put your brother on. Put your brother on the phone! Oh, this is nice. Oh, you're so good in that. What do you think about when you hear that back? Oh, it was so much fun.

That was the first episode I did as that character and it was my favorite one. Did it say in the script, get louder every time you say put your brother on or was that something you just figured out you should do? I think I just assumed that that's what it would be. Women coming up to me in supermarkets saying, oh my God, that's me, that's me, oh my God. What, oh dear, okay. People still come up and say, put your brother on the phone.

You were so good in that scene, they brought you back for another season, and that was the second season that you won an Emmy for that role. You grew up in Seattle, right? Where Frasier was set. How did you get up in Seattle, right? Where Frasier was set. How did you get interested in acting? I had a terrific drama teacher my last year in high school.

His name was Earl Kelly. He was kind of locally famous because he put on particularly good shows and musicals and things at our high school. And so then I took the class my senior year and he was great. He was tough. I mean, he taught us, he treated us like we were a professional acting troupe. He expected a lot from us. He hated the fact that I was a cheerleader. He thought that was just appalling. But he liked me. And so I really got bitten by the bug. So I told my parents that I wanted to major in theater in college,

and my mother was not too happy with me. But after I started doing some plays at the University of Washington, she became my biggest fan, my biggest supporter. When you were getting started, what were some of your day jobs? You mean after I got out of college? Mm-hmm. I'm embarrassed to say I never had another day job. You were able to make a living acting right from the start?

Yeah, it wasn't much of a living, but yeah. How did you do that? Well, there's a lot of professional theater in Seattle, and between Seattle and the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in Asheville, Oregon, where I would do summers, I managed to just get by, you know? You'd always think, oh geez, I don't know if I have next month's rent, but something would come along. Did you go through any fallow periods where you thought,

I'm never going to get a role again? The only time that springs to mind that that happened, ironically, was after Fargo. I got great reviews, the show was a big hit. I think I won the Critics' Choice Award for that role and Crickets. Why? I shouldn't say this, but I think it was because of the way I looked. And all of a sudden it was sort of like, oh dear, now she's an older woman, and now what do we do with her? And, uh, I don't know.

I mean, literally not a meeting, not an audition, not an offer for a long time. But once it started again, it's just been, you know, a steady climb towards, you know, wonderful roles. I mean, I just can't... I'm extremely grateful. Gene Smart, speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. Season four of Hacks has begun streaming this week on HBO Max. After a break, we'll hear from two other stars of Hacks,

Hannah Einbinder and series co-creator Paul W. Downs. And Justin Chang reviews Warfare, a new film based on actual exploits of U.S Paul W. Downs. And Justin Chang reviews Warfare, a new film based on actual exploits of U.S. Navy SEALs. I'm David Bianculli and this is Fresh Air. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things and other currencies. With WISE, you can send, spend, or receive money across borders all at a fair exchange rate. No markups or hidden fees. Join millions of customers and visit wise.com. T's and C's apply.

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Let's continue our show about Hacks, the award-winning HBO Max comedy series, which began its fourth season this week. Hannah Einbinder plays Ava, the young writer teamed reluctantly with veteran female comic Deborah, played by Jean Smart. In real life, Einbinder is a stand-up comic who had her own comedy special on HBO Max last year. She's the daughter of Lorraine Newman,

an original cast member of Saturday Night Live. Terry Gross spoke with Hannah Einbinder last year. Let's listen to a clip from season three of Hacks. With Ava's help, Jean Smart's character of Deborah is making a comeback, and is in line to be offered the job she always wanted, hosting a popular late night TV show. She's about to be given an honorary degree and is at a party on the college campus when she finds out a video has gone viral, stringing together some of her jokes from years ago. Jokes that now are considered insensitive

and problematic. Ava, played by Hannah Einbinder, is by her side. Gene Smart's character, Deborah, speaks first. I can't believe this is happening now! I know. It's really bad timing. I finally get an ounce of relevance. I'm this close. They just want to take it away from me again. I'm sorry to say this, but I mean,

you're not the only victim here. Oh? Oh, really? Who's the other victim? Someone who was offended by a joke? Many jokes. I'm sorry. People are too easily offended now. If you don't like a joke, don't laugh!

They're not. This is insane! Me! I am being taken down by a liberal mob! Me, who is the first person to be fined by the FCC for saying that we're an abortion on TV! Why come after me? Hey!

Hey, this is not a value judgment on your entire being. Oh, really? They're just upset about some mistakes you made. Jokes I made. Jokes that everybody was doing at the time. Yes, and the jokes were hurtful. Both things can be true.

You get to be rich and famous from making jokes, and people are allowed to have their reactions to them. I mean, why not use your comedian brain to fight through your defensiveness and think outside of yourself? Isn't that what good comics do? Why don't you just apologize? Okay, that scene was set at a fraternity party on the campus. Hannah Einbinder, welcome to Fresh Air. How did you get the part on Hacks with no previous acting experience? You've done sketch comedy. You did a great set on the Stephen Colbert show

right before the pandemic lockdown. So how did you pull that off? Well, yeah, I went in with the rest of the, with all the eligible ladies in the land. I went into a casting office, like first round, early days on it. And I, you know, what ultimately did it in the end was I added jokes in my audition. Every step of the way, I would add my own jokes.

So you punched up the script you were given? Yeah. A perfect script that needed no punch-up, might I add. But I did just, you know, because it was so funny. And when something is such a quality piece of work, for me, it's so easy to kind of spitball off of that. So, I just loved the material and I had ideas for it. And so, I just added jokes along the way way and I did about three auditions. My first one was like several days before the initial COVID lockdown and then months went by and I did my callback on Zoom. And again, in that callback I added several jokes and

I also added that Ava would vape after a punchline. I bought a vape and I hit it in the I smoked it in the callback What was the scene that you were given to audition and did they keep the jokes that you wrote in the actual? TV series they did and the audition scenes were The first scene where we meet my character in her manager Jimmy's office. And she's, you know, on the verge talking about wanting to jump out the window. And she's just been, you know, canceled, if you will.

And then the other scene is the interview scene between Ava and Deborah when they first meet. So can you give an example of a joke you wrote that they kept? In the audition scene, the one between Gene and I. And just to set it up, you both have the same agent. It's the son of the person who was originally Gene Smart's agent. Yes. The older agent died.

His son represents your character and Smart's character. And he kind of finagles things to get you to go to Gene Smart's house to audition, but he never tells Gene Smart that. So, things that could get off to a terrible start. Yes. I added just some color to the initial interview scene between Ava and Debra. I added that Ava, the line was that she flew all the way here, and I added on Spirit Airlines.

Right. Okay. That's fine. Yeah. Because you're talking about the effort you went to, to get here and now she's just rejecting you without even talking to you yet. AMT – Yeah. There was also a line I said, who's your decorator, Melania Trump, because she has this sort of very Baroque style going on, sort of Versace Palace vibes.

AMT. HALLEE HARTMANN Did you learn a lot about acting by working with Jean Smart? AMT. SONIA SINHA Oh, yeah. AMT. HALLEE HARTMANN Was it mostly by example or did she give you actual tips? AMT.

SONIA SINHA It was very much by example. She's really so gifted naturally and also technically, you know, when it comes to the very, you know, meticulous blocking work and continuity and, you know, I picked up the pen on this line, just things like that. She's very sharp and she's very on it and I have tried to absorb as much as I can. So, you know, your mother is Lorraine Newman, one of the original cast members of Saturday Night Live. When you were growing up, was being funny

something that was really prized or rewarded by your parents? Certainly. 100%, yeah. I think it was the main currency in our home. And, you know, my parents are both tough laughs, so I had to do a lot to get what I wanted, you know, to do like a lot to get a big response from them. And yeah, it's like a, it is a love language for sure. And that was definitely my experience growing up. Do you feel like you learned how to take something really awful that happened to you and tell

a funny story about it? Like turn like bad things into comedy? Yeah, I mean I think that might just be a product of being Jewish but yeah it's also it's also it's also my specific upbringing for sure, yeah. Hannah Einbinder co-stars in the HBO Max series Hacks. She spoke with Terry Gross last year. Here's Einbinder on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert. He asked her about the possibility of a romantic relationship between her character and Gene Smartz on Hacks.

Apparently something a lot of fans want. I don't think it's gonna happen and that's the truth. And again, like I want you to express yourself in the fan fiction and that is beautiful. We're not gonna get it and we need to focus up because I will post on Instagram like, hey guys we all need to support SB 222 to make polluters pay for climate disasters

and everybody sign the petition right now and I'll get like 16 replies that are like, make them kiss! Girls, we gotta focus. We gotta focus because there's no kissing on a dead planet. You know what I'm saying? Coming up, Paul W. Downs who plays Jimmy. Downs also co-created and co-writes the show. This is Fresh Air.

Paul W. Downs co-created, co-writes, and co-stars in Hacks, playing the talent manager Jimmy. He created Hacks with his comedy partners, his wife Lucia Uniello and their friend and collaborator, Jen Statsky. Downs and Uniello also direct many of the episodes. Before creating Hacks, the trio worked on the Comedy Central show Broad City, in which Downs also co-starred. Paul W. Downs spoke with Anne-Marie Baldonado last year. Let's hear another clip from the very first episode of Hacks.

Jimmy is fielding a call from his big client, Debra, played by Gene Smart. She's in danger of losing part of her Las Vegas residency. By the way, Downs won an Emmy for writing this episode. Deborah, perfect timing. How are you? My favorite client. Marty wants to cut my dates. He blindsided me at lunch with a snake. Oh, he says he needs to appeal to a younger crowd. You've got to do something about this, Jimmy. Okay, I will call Morty.

Marty! Marty, yes, but I have a pitch. What if you hire a writer? I actually represent a very in-demand young woman. She wrote for a hit show, nominated for an Emmy. Almost everybody is talking about her. I write my own material. I do not need a writer.

I need a manager. Your father would have handled this. He promised me you'd take care of me. Don't make your dead father a liar, Jimmy. I wanna go back to the origins of the show, Hacks. Where did the idea for Hacks come from? And I think some of the origin story involves a card trip way back in 2016.

Yeah, actually 2015. Oh, 2015. If you can believe it. Yeah, so we were, Jen Statsky, Lucia and Yellow and myself were driving from Boston to Portland, Maine. They were with me, helping me in writing jokes for the special. And as we drove up, we were talking about

our favorite comedians, most of whom are women, and how so many of those women just never had the same opportunities and just didn't get the same respect that a lot of their male counterparts did. And so we were just talking about that phenomenon. And the three of us also started comedy at the UCB Theater in New York,

which is sort of an alt comedy scene. And we were also talking about this phenomenon of cool comedy versus what young, cool comedians might consider hacky comedy. And so we just started talking about this phenomenon and thought, well, you know what would be a cool show is a show about sort of an icon of comedy who is misunderstood by someone of a younger generation.

And so we just, yeah, emailed each other the idea for the show and kept talking about it for four or five years before we pitched it. I think it's kind of a thing now to ask comedians what their thoughts are about cancel culture, the thought that it's difficult to do comedy now because everyone's too PC. And I think it's a little unfair to ask all comics

about this issue, but you and your co-creators actually take this topic head on, especially this season. Why did you want to do that and not shy away from it? I'll say too that the series even starts with the younger comic, Ava, having a tough time getting a job because this kind of edgy joke she put on Twitter kind of made it so that it was hard for her to get work. Yeah.

I mean, it's funny because we pitched this episode where Deborah goes back to her alma mater for an honorary degree, but then some of her older material comes back to haunt her. We pitched that when we pitched the show. And we didn't have exactly the right moment for it. I think this season, because she's on the precipice of a really big job and sort of the stakes of her career are more heightened than they have been,

it was the perfect moment to do it. But also it's a scary thing because I don't think we've ever wanted the show to be a show about, quote, cancel culture, you know? And also it's such a, it's such a sort of minefield and, you know, to wrap it's such a sort of mind field. And, you know, to wrap your arms around it is tricky. And I think if we ever, you know,

we wanna make a show that first makes people laugh, it's a comedy, but we also wanna make a show that makes people think. Because if we have the, honestly, if we have the opportunity to do that, we have this platform, it's like, why not make something that makes you talk with the people you've watched it with,

or makes you think about something and reframe something you've thought about in the past. So we do wanna do that. It's sort of like, we like to think that if we lead with comedy and lead with funny first, we can get away with sort of tackling issues because these two people would have very different perspectives on,

name any issue, you know, because they're of such different generations. And so, you know, this year we were like, well, let's do this because it feels right, and let's try and represent both of their points of view equally. Well, yeah, at the end of season three, Deborah, played by Jean Smart, gets into trouble because someone has released a super cut of some of her worst jokes from the past.

Racist jokes, jokes about people with disabilities. And Ava, the year her comic, like you were just saying, it encourages her to be honest and maybe come clean and apologize. And I want to play a scene from that second to last episode that addresses this. So little problem. Someone made a super cut of some of your more problematic older material and it's gaining traction.

And apparently some students are planning to protest your ceremony. Oh, okay. Which minority group is upset? Okay, not great that you have to ask that. And also, I don't think minority is the proper term anymore. What are they called? No, don't say they.

Oh, I thought everybody was they now! It's a different thing. Okay, just, oh God, this is just the worst possible timing for you to be held accountable for your actions? Yes! I am inches away from my f***ing dream job job! Hey I think you're getting off pretty easy, okay? You're lucky that Zsa Zsa Go Bore S*** is only available on VHS. I mean it was textbook slut shaming. Well she was a slut! Oh my god, well and that's but that's fine. Oh god, okay look just we gotta squash this. I guess. Or you could just apologize.

No. Deborah, the jokes weren't great. You wouldn't do them today. No, you never apologize for a joke. I'm a comedian. I was just doing my job. Okay, look, it's just some of the students, right? Yeah.

Okay, okay, then all I have to do is, you know, curry favor on campus with the other students, you know, drown out the dissenters, make the minority voices a minority. I could go right in the supercut. I'll tell you what we're going to do. We will go to that fraternity party tonight. I'll buy them supplies. And I will do that student improv show that I was invited to do.

It's the perfect opportunity to make myself look good. Okay. show that was invited to do. It's the perfect opportunity to make myself look good. OK. Deborah, improv has never made anyone look good. OK? I like ending with that, knowing that the co-creators of this show came up in improv. Yeah, I want to just ask you about how you figured out how you wanted Deborah to respond to this. Because it is, this is really one of the most kind of in-depth and sophisticated ways of taking on this topic of cancel culture and how people aren't really canceled, actually.

Or as Deborah says, she was canceled years ago before there was ever a name for it. Right. And it only became, they only gave it a name after it started happening to powerful white men. Yes. Yeah. And I think that's actually like, for us, it was one of the really important things because in the history of the character, she was maligned in the press by an ex-husband

who was jealous and made to seem crazy. And so she was somebody who was wrongfully canceled. But again, just like she says, there wasn't a name for it. It really has only had a name when it started happening to powerful white men. So, you know, in a way, especially for someone like Deborah, who has been on the right side of history and has, you know, again, in the history of the character,

was fined by the FCC for saying abortion on TV. You know, she did things that were progressive, and she did things that were left-leaning, and she did things that she feels should get her a pass, and that the fact that she's getting taken to task now is really not fair. And what Ava says is, yes, and people

can have a reaction to your work because you're a rich and famous comedian. And it's not a judgment on your entire being. It's about certain work that you did. And I think that's like an important thing, because I do understand the defensiveness that comedians have when there is pushback or there is negative reaction.

Because oftentimes as a comedian, your job is to observe the world and to make people laugh. And if you've done that, you know, A, you feel as though you've done your job well. And B, if over time it hasn't aged well, it feels like it's an attack of your actual being because it's your observations. It's the way your mind works.

But the truth is, it's just about jokes. I do think it's not about... I don't think people are like, wow, that person is bad with a capital B forever. I think it usually is way for us to be able to sort of show both sides of the argument. And hopefully, just the fact that Deborah is willing to engage speaks volumes to the fact that she isn't a hack. She's somebody who evolves.

Paul W. Downs speaking with Anne-Marie Baldonado last year. The fourth season of Hacks began streaming this week on HBO Max. After a break, film critic Justin Chang reviews a new movie, Warfare, based on true stories of US Navy SEALs serving overseas. This is Fresh Air. The new movie, Warfare, was inspired by the true story of a squad of US Navy SEALs who found themselves under fire in Iraq in 2006. The film, which opens in theaters this week, was co-directed by Ray Mendoza, a former SEAL who was part of that squad, and Alex Garland, the British filmmaker behind such thrillers as Civil War and Ex Machina.

Our film critic, Justin Chang, has this review. In his 2024 action drama, Civil War, the British director, Alex Garland, imagined a dystopian America torn apart by violence. For all its echoes of the present day, I found the movie politically neutral to the point of vagueness, and I couldn't buy into its world-building. I did, however, buy into its world-destroying, which is to say its viscerally terrifying action sequences.

In staging the battle scenes, Garland worked closely with a military advisor, Ray Mendoza, a former US Navy SEAL who's also lent his expertise to the war drama Lone Survivor and the video game Call of Duty Modern Warfare. Now Garland and Mendoza have reteamed on a new movie, simply titled Warfare. The two co-wrote and co-directed the film, which reconstructs an incident from the Iraq War in November 2006, when a routine mission by Mendoza and his fellow SEALs went dangerously awry. The script was drawn entirely from Mendoza's and his comrades' memories,

with no attempt to fill in the war's broader context. The aim is to embed the audience with the soldiers, and provide as immersive an experience of modern combat as possible. It begins at night, when a squad of SEALs break into a two-story apartment building in the city of Ramadi, known to be a hotbed of Al-Qaeda insurgency. By the next morning, they've set up a surveillance operation, but the details of their mission remain unclear,

which only ratchets up the tension. There's no exposition, only terse, often indecipherable bursts of military jargon. The Seals are played by actors including Will Poulter, Joseph Quinn, Michael Gandolfini, and as the young Mendoza himself, Defero Wunatai, from the series Reservation Dogs. But we barely get to know their characters' names or backgrounds. They don't crack jokes or tell stories from back home. They haven't been given the cliché of one distinguishing personality trait apiece. Most of the time we see and hear them functioning as a unit, and a cohesive, very well-trained one.

The SEALs mostly sit quietly in wait. One sniper, Elliot, played by Cosmo Jarvis, keeps his rifle trained on a house across the street, where he suspects insurgents are hiding. And then all hell breaks loose. An unseen enemy drops a grenade into the building, making it clear that their presence has been discovered. Look at me. How bad is it? Yeah, we're gonna need a Casabat. Alright. This is Frogman 6. Romeo, we are troops in contact at our last known position. More info to follow. Stand by.

Wild Eagle Base, Wild Eagle 2-4. We are troops in contact, requesting immediate air support. Over. Alpha 2, this is 1. We've had grenades thrown in our position. Copy. One word. Contact 2. Elliot is injured. Are we coming to you or are you coming to us? Stand by. Copy. One word. Contact two. Elliot is injured. Are we coming to you or are you coming to us? Standby. Given how many films we've seen about U.S. troops in combat,

from Platoon and Full Metal Jacket to Saving Private Ryan and the Hurt Locker, it's a tall order for a movie to say something new about the experience. But warfare succeeds in part by committing to a level of moment-to-moment realism that those earlier films, even at their most harrowing, didn't strive for. Most of the story plays out in real time, and as the SEALs wait and wait for armored vehicles to bring them to safety, the directors aren't afraid to slow the pace down and draw things out to an agonizing degree. The movie's second half is at once excruciating and mesmerizing.

An IED goes off, casualties are sustained, and wounds are lingered on at graphic length. You're reminded of how quickly some war movies cut away from the carnage, but Warfare doesn't. Some of its soldiers' anguished screams are still echoing in my brain. Some will find Garland and Mendoza's film too narrowly focused, to the exclusion of any deeper insight into the war. Similar critiques were levelled at the Hurt Locker, still perhaps the best American drama ever made about the Iraq War. And they're no more convincing when lobbed at warfare. Those looking for politics will find it, I think, in the

way Garland and Mendoza avoid jingoism and false heroics. There are acts of heroism here, to be sure, but no glorification. And we're never allowed to forget that the American soldiers are a hostile, intrusive presence. From time to time we see Iraqi civilian families huddling in terror in the apartment building where the SEALs have set up their operation. There are also quick glimpses of insurgents firing from rooftops across the street. At times I wondered what kind of movie could be made about the same events from their perspective,

with the same radical absence of cliché. Warfare doesn't just offer a corrective to the war movies we've seen already. It's powerful enough to leave us thinking about all the ones we still have yet to see. Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed the new film, Warfare. On Monday's show, actor Richard Kind. You've seen him on countless TV shows and films in his 40 year career.

Only Murders in the Building, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Spin City, Mad About You, A Serious Man, and as Bing Bong in Inside Out, just to name a few. He's now the announcer and sidekick on Everybody's Live with John Mulaney on Netflix. I hope you can join us. ["Fresh Air"] Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.