Fresh Air - How 'Hacks' Comes Together — Over Email

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

Paul W. Downs co-created the HBO Max show with his wife, Lucia Aniello and their friend and collaborator, Jen Statsky. The three met at the Upright Citizens Brigade. Downs talks with Ann Marie Baldonado about how they came up with the idea for Hacks, tackling cancel culture, and how his wife continued directing the show while she was in labor. Hacks is nominated for 16 Emmy awards this year, including for Downs for his role as Jimmy. Also, David Bianculli reflects on the Turner Classic Movies series Two for One. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Our guest Paul W. Downs just received Emmy nominations for his work acting in and writing for the Max TV series Hacks. He spoke with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Boldenado. You may know Paul W. Downs from his role as the talent manager Jimmy in the Emmy and Peabody Award-winning TV series Hacks. The show follows Debra Vance, a veteran stand-up comic and Vegas headliner. When we meet Debra, her career is waning, and she's in danger of losing part of her Las Vegas

residency. It's her manager, Jimmy, who comes up with the idea of matching Debra with a young Gen Z comic to help her write jokes and be more current. In this scene from the first episode, Paul W. Downs as Jimmy is fielding a call from his big client, Debra, played by Jean Smart. Debra, perfect timing. How are you, my favorite client? Marty wants to cut my dates. He blindsided me at lunch, that snake.

Oh, he says he needs to appeal to a younger crowd. You've got to do something about this, Jimmy. Okay, I will call Morty. Marty! Marty, yes, but I have a pitch. What if you hire a writer? I actually represent a very in-demand young woman. She wrote for a hit show, nominated for an Emmy.

Almost everybody is talking about her. I write my own material. I do not need a writer. I need a manager. Your father would have handled this. He promised me he'd take care of me. Don't make your dead father a liar, Jimmy. Paul W. Downs actually won an Emmy

for writing that episode from 2021. He co-created Hacks with his comedy partners, his wife Lucia Agnello and their friend and collaborator Jen Statsky. Downs and Agnello also direct many of the episodes. Before creating Hacks, the trio worked on the Comedy Central show Broad City, which Downs also co-starred in. His other work includes the film Rough Night and the miniseries Time Traveling Bong. Paul W. Downs, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks for having me. Hi.

Hi. I want to go back to the origins of the show Hacks. Where did the idea for Hacks come from? And I think some of the origin story involves a car trip way back in 2016. Yeah, actually 2015. Oh, 2015. If you can believe it. Yeah. So we were, Jen Statsky, Lucia and Yellow and myself, we're driving from Boston to Portland, Maine. They were with me, helping me and writing jokes for the special.

And as we drove up, we were talking about our favorite comedians, most of whom are women, and how so many of those women just never had the same opportunities and just didn't get the same respect that a lot of their male counterparts did. And so we were just talking about that phenomenon. And, you know, the three of us also started comedy at the UCB Theater in New York, which is, you know, sort of an alt-comedy scene. And we were also talking about this phenomenon of cool comedy versus, you know, what young, cool comedians might consider hacky comedy. And so

we just started talking about this phenomenon and thought, well, you know, it'd be a cool show is a show about sort of an icon of comedy who is misunderstood by someone of a younger generation. And so we just, yeah, emailed each other the idea for the show and kept talking about it for four or five years before we pitched it. Your character, Jimmy, is a manager. And from what I've read, you didn't as a manager, kind of in the shadow of his father who passed away and who was this high-powered entertainment guy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Jimmy is very much kind of a, I guess, a nepo baby. We used to joke, or at least we joked when we were pitching the show, that he would get a call and he'd say, Jimmy Lussac. No, no,

you're thinking of my dad. Yeah, he was a great man. Yeah. Yeah. Prostate cancer. Anyway, I have a web series I'd love you to check out. You know, so he kind of is in the shadow of sort of this Hollywood legend. But also it was a means for us to kind of justify why someone his age would be representing someone like Deborah Vance in the, you know, sort of the lore of the show. When his father passed away, he sort of inherited Deborah as a client. So someone like Ava is much more in his wheelhouse. You know, he's sort of representing emerging comedy writers and sort of younger alt comedy crowd. But Deborah is one of these legends that he also kind of manages just because she decided to stay with him. So for us, it was total fantasy because like you said, I did not grow up anywhere near show business.

I grew up in a really rural part of New Jersey. So rural that there was a livestock auction every week in my town when I was little. So, you know, it was very much a fantasy and a creation. Now, I want to play another scene from the first episode of Hacks. Like I said, you won an Emmy for writing this episode. It's called There Is No Line. In this scene, Ava, the younger comic, has flown out to Las Vegas to meet the older iconic comedian, Debra. And it turns out that Debra didn't really know that Jimmy, your character, who manages both of them, arranged this meeting. Debra, of course, is played by Jean Smart and Ava is played by Hannah Einbinder. And, you know, the meeting does not go well. You know, they did not get along. So Ava storms out and she's muttering under her breath. Excuse me. Did you have something else to say?

Yeah. You've just been pretty rude and I dropped everything to come here. Oh, Christ. Oh, you wanted a gold star just for showing up? Kinda. Yeah, because you're right. I'm not a fan of yours. I mean, the last thing on Earth I want to do is move to the desert to write some lame jokes for an old hack. I think you better leave. Yeah. Can I show you to the door? Would you like to go back up the chimney? Oh, no, I know my way out. By the way, so cool they let you move into a cheesecake factory. Oh, is that where you wait tables? That seems like a better fit. Oh, yeah, I agree, you classist monster.

I'd rather sling bang-bang chicken and shrimp all day than work here. I mean, what is this, 50 tassels on one couch? Even Liberace would think it's a bit much. Oh, no, you're incorrect. He actually loved it. He had poppers on that couch in 85. That's a scene from the pilot of the show Hacks. That episode was written by my guest, Paul W. Downs. And, you know, as that scene goes on, Deborah and Ava really kind of get into it.

And they have, like, disdain for each other. And, you know, going into this, Deborah has so much disdain for Ava in particular, and at first doesn't want to hire her or anyone. And it's not until the younger comic Ava is honest with her, and I should say rude to her. It's only then that Deborah sort of is intrigued and like invigorated and wants to work with her. Can you talk about that idea that she's intrigued by someone who's finally honest with her? Yeah, I think Debra is somebody who may have been called a hack a million times, but nobody was brave enough to say it to her face. So I think she decides, A, this girl's pretty funny, and B, she's not afraid of me. And it really turns Debra on because the fact that they can spar with each other and sort of rib each other. I mean, it's true of so many comics that I know that it's their love language, you know, teasing each other and making fun of each other. And I think Deborah sees in this young woman an actual opponent who might be worthy of her own wit. So I think she's really excited by the prospect of

having somebody that can challenge her. Like I said, she's just creatively turned on by it. But also, Ava calls her a hack. And I think there's a degree to which Debra wants to prove this girl wrong. And she says, you know what, I'm going to hire this girl. And I'm going to haze her. And I'm going to show her what it really takes to make it in this business. And I'm going to prove to her that I'm not a hack. So I think there's a lot of there's a lot going on for Debra in this moment. That makes her say, I'll give this I'll give this kid a chance. Yeah, and it's like proving this kid wrong is like proving a whole generation of younger comics wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

she does represent, again, like cool comedy, right? Like the cool kid alt comedy, which Debra was a part of. And most comedians start out doing things that might be edgier, might be a little more original. And, you know, some of them calcify. And that is the definition of a hack. If you're somebody who does the same thing over and over, that's hacky. But there are some comedians who continue to evolve and stay plugged in and ined to Vegas and in her ivory tower of her big mansion there. You know, I think she she knows she runs the risk of that. But she is like Ava, a true comedian who cares so much about that is addicted to the craft that I think the idea that this girl might be good for her work, I think is very exciting. You know, another theme of the show is, you know, do comics have to be hurt or be cruel in order to be good? Like, you know, like you're just saying that there's this love language of being like

smart and cruel to each other. But I think there is that part of that because like both of these characters are so hurt. You find out even the levels of it as the show goes on. Yeah, I think, yeah, you certainly learn about their, the reason that they turn to comedy. And I think both of them turn to comedy for the same reason that a lot of comedians do, because there was something in their life that was either painful and they needed to laugh through it or, you know, for some people they feel isolated or different or othered and it's a means of connecting with people or it's a means of sometimes self-protection, you know,

to make other people laugh. So I think there's a lot of reasons people come to comedy. But certainly for both of them, they have a similar use of comedy, which is it's a defense for them. It's armor for them. But again, for someone like Ava, who kind of grew up lonely, you learn, it was a means of feeling connected to other people and making sense of the world and the things that she was observing. So it is that it is certainly the tie that binds. It's the thing that makes them very much kindred spirits. Do you think people have to be hurt to be interested in comedy? No.

I think there are some people who are just giddy and funny. Some people are just naturally liquid funny. But I do think that there is certainly truth to the richness of material that comes from a place of pain and hardship. But I don't think you need to be someone who's experienced trauma to do it. I think it's great when people who have can turn that into good work. But, you know, I think it's, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. I think it's kind of a thing now to ask comedians what their thoughts are about cancel culture, the thought that it's difficult to do comedy now because everyone's too PC.

And I think it's a little unfair to ask all comics about this issue. But you and your co-creators actually take this topic head on, especially this season. Why did you want to do that and not shy away from it? I'll say, too, that the series even starts with the younger comic, Ava, having a tough time getting a job because this kind of edgy joke she put on Twitter kind of made it so that it was hard for her to get work. Yeah, I mean, it's funny because we pitched this episode where Deborah goes back to her alma mater for an honorary degree, but then some of her older material comes back to haunt her. We pitched that when we pitched the show and we didn't have exactly the right moment for it. I think this season, because she's on the precipice of a really big job and sort of the stakes of her career are more heightened than they have been. It was the perfect moment to do it. But also it's a scary thing because I don't think we've ever wanted the show to be a show

about quote cancel culture you know and also it's such a it's such a um sort of minefield and you know to wrap your arms around it is tricky and i think if we ever you know we we want to make a show that first makes people laugh it's a comedy but we also want to make a show that makes people think. Because if we have the, honestly, if we have the opportunity to do that, we have this platform, it's like, why not make something that makes you talk with the people you've watched it with, or makes you think about something and reframe something you've thought about in the past. So we do want to do that. It's sort of like, we like to think that if we lead with comedy and lead with funny first, we can get away with sort of, you know, tackling issues because these two people would have very different perspectives on name any issue, you know, because year we were like, well, let's let's do this because it feels right. And let's try and represent both of their points of view equally.

Well, yeah. At the end of season three, Deborah, played by Jean Smart, gets into trouble because someone has released a super cut of some of her worst jokes from the past. Racist jokes, jokes about people with disabilities. And Ava, the younger comic, like you were just saying, encourages her to be honest and maybe come clean and apologize. And I want to play a scene from that second to last episode that addresses this. So little problem, someone made a supercut of some of your more problematic older material, and it's gaining traction and apparently some students are planning to protest your ceremony oh okay which minority group is upset okay not great that you have to ask that and also i don't think minority is the proper term

anymore what are they called no don't say they oh i thought everybody was they now it's a different thing okay just oh god this is just the worst possible timing. For you to be held accountable for your actions? Yes! I am inches away from my dream job! Hey, I think you're getting off pretty easy, okay? You're lucky that Zsa Zsa Go Boresh is only available on VHS. I mean, it was textbook slut shaming. Well, she was a slut!

Oh my, well, and that's, but that's fine. Oh god, okay, look, Well, she was a slut. Oh, my God. Well, and that's, but that's fine. Oh, God. Okay, look, just, we gotta squash this. I guess. Or you could just apologize. No. Deborah, the jokes weren't great. You wouldn't do them today.

No, you never apologize for a joke. I'm a comedian. I was just doing my job. Okay, look, look, it's just, it's just some of the students, right? Yeah. Okay, okay. Then all I have to do is, you know, curry favor on campus with the other students. You know, drown out the dissenters. Make the minority voices a minority. I could go write in the Supercut.

I'll tell you what we're gonna do. We will go to that fraternity party tonight. I'll buy them supplies. And I will do that student improv show that I was invited to do. It's the perfect opportunity to make myself look good. Okay. Deborah, improv has never made anyone look good. Okay?

I like ending with that, knowing that the co-creators of this show came up in improv. Yeah, I want to just ask you about how you figured out how you wanted Debra to respond to this. Because this is really one of the most kind of in-depth and sophisticated ways of taking on this topic of cancel culture and how people aren't really canceled. Or as Deborah says, you know, she was canceled, you know, years ago before there was ever a name for it. And it only became they only gave it a name after it started happening to powerful white men.

Yes. Yeah. And I think that's actually like for us, it was one of the really important things because in the history of the character, she was maligned in the press by an ex-husband who was jealous and, you know, made to seem crazy. And so she was somebody who was wrongfully canceled. But again, like she says, there wasn't a name for it. It really has only had a name when it started happening to powerful white men. So, you know, in a way, especially for someone like Deborah, who has been on the right side of history and has, you know, again, in the history of the character was fined by the FCC for saying abortion on TV. cleaning and she did things that she feels should get her a pass and that the fact that she's getting taken to task now is really not fair and and what ava says is yes and people can have a reaction to your your work because you're a rich and famous comedian um and it's not a judgment on your entire being it's about certain work that you did and I think that's like an important thing because I

do understand the defensiveness that comedians have when there is pushback or there is negative reaction because oftentimes as a comedian, your job is to observe the world and to make people laugh. And if you've done that, you know, A, you feel as though you've done your job well, and b, if over time it hasn't aged well, it feels like it's an attack of your actual being because it's your observations. It's the way your mind works. But the truth is, it's just about jokes. I do think it's not about, I don't think people are like, wow, that person is bad with a capital B forever. You know, I think it usually is more site-specific. And so, yeah, I think it was a way for us to be able to sort of show both sides of the argument.

And hopefully just the fact that Debra is willing to engage speaks volumes to the fact that she isn't a hack. You know, she's somebody who evolves. My guest is actor, writer, director, and producer Paul W. Downs. He's nominated for Acting In and Writing for the series Hacks, which he co-created. He's already won an Emmy for Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series in 2021 for the pilot of Hacks. He's also wrote and starred in the comedy series Broad City. More after a short break. I'm Anne-Marie Baldonado. This is Fresh Air. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive

money internationally and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. At this point in the show, we want to take a moment to tell you about something really cool. NPR Plus now has a bundle option for everyone in the United States. What does that mean? Well, with an upgrade to NPR+, you get more than 20 sponsor-free podcasts with more on the way. And these amazing shows offer bonus episodes, archive access, even for some shows, early access.

The bundle also includes extra perks like exclusive podcasts and discounts from the NPR Shop and the NPR Wine Club. The NPR Plus bundle is a better deal by design. You get all of the perks for one reoccurring donation of $8 a month or $96 a year. Giving this way allows more of your donation to go directly to support public media. Now, this bundle is only available through plus.npr.org. That's important to note because doing it this way avoids app store fees and other stuff that get in the way of your donation being used to support our work. So if you want to make a bigger impact and get more in return,

visit plus.npr.org and select the bundle option today. And if you've already signed up, thank you. Now back to the show. You and your comedy partners, your wife, Lucia Agnello, and your friend and collaborator, Jen Stotsky, you all met in the world of UCB, Upright Citizens Brigade. How did you know that you would be good collaborators or that you'd work well together? I mean, there's two things. One, I found both Jen and Lucia so funny. And two, I found myself being funnier because I wanted to make them laugh. You know, I think when you respect someone's brain and their sense of humor, getting a laugh out of them is sort of like the ultimate, you know, it when you respect someone's brain and their sense of humor getting a laugh out of

them is sort of like the the ultimate you know it feels so good so and there are some people that you know you just have um you just click with that you just have chemistry with and it's true of non-comedians too you know you have friends that you love laughing with and there you have other friends who are a little bit more serious or you're like well that was fun but after you leave dinner you're like it wasn't as fun as when I go out with XYZ because we make each other laugh. You know, I think that's true of anybody. So yeah, I think we just gravitated toward each other because we shared a sense of humor, which often I think is related to a sense of how you see the world and a sense of values too. Can you describe how you all write, like working on Hacks? Do you take

different parts of the story or do you write the same parts and compare notes? No, I can't tell you. I can. I can reveal it. So we basically kind of share the responsibility of everything. We really, we, as I mentioned, when we pitched the show, we pitched the very last episode. So we sort of had at least a framework for where we wanted to go. And then, you know, with our writer's room, we break story and we figure out the ins and outs and the scenes of every episode. And, you know, we all write set up punchline jokes. We all write character dialogue jokes. We all write visual things. I think certainly we gravitate toward one or the other, but you kind of have to wear a lot of hats. You've talked about how when you came up with the idea of Hacks, you had this idea, and then you wrote an email to all three of you describing the show idea so you wouldn't forget.

And I heard you say that you all still write each other's emails with ideas and jokes and like that's your one of your like filing systems I guess well nowadays it's like we don't carry a little notepad around but yeah it's so easy to have subject jokes dash hacks because we have certain jokes other things too but uh and then we you know we'll email it to the three of us then it's so easily searchable which means that when we're working obviously we, we don't have to do that. But it's usually in the moments we're not working that the muse strikes. We have an idea. Something comes to us and we write it down.

So like you're on vacation and you're like, oh, this would be something funny for Debra to do. Exactly. We're on vacation. We're out to dinner. Whatever it is. And it's sort of like we're sort of in more of a mode of play, you know, that something then comes to you. And so it's sort of a way to get it, get it filed, and then get back to the fun. So you can revisit it when you're in the writer's room. But yeah,

we do that. We've done that for a very long time. We still do it. Do you have a recent example of an email or something that sort of went around like that i mean i can i can pull one up if that'd be great if you want yeah oof i can't read you that one that one is about the series finale so i can't read that one um this is hard hold on let me see is there an old one okay here's a specific one here's like Here's a specific that isn't a joke, but here's a specific. Lucia emailed, a character in the show has a wet t-shirt from having wet hair because she always shows up late, and Debra finds that quite disgusting. So that's an example of a character specific. Somebody who's showered 10 minutes before they arrive to work, and it really bugs Debra. So that's something that's not like an actual line of dialogue, but sometimes it's lines of dialogue. Let me see if this one's a line of dialogue. Okay.

So exciting. Okay, because this one is really funny. Ava is sort of in like mesh shorts and a big t-shirt and Debra says, you're not funny enough to dress like Adam Sandler. And then Ava says, well, he's too rich to dress like me. And then Debra says,

he's rich enough not to have shame. You, on the other hand, should have a lot. So anyway, that was a literal three-line scene that was emailed. So yeah, sometimes it's nearly a scene. It's an exchange. It depends. You never know. You never know. That's so funny. By the way, I love that Max, the people who produced, who were producing Hacks, who greenlit it, didn't want to know how it ended. They wanted to like hold on to the, you know, to not get the spoiler of it. I loved that when I read it. What initially happened was in the pitch, Susanna Makos said, you guys can keep going, but I understand the show.

I get it. And I would like to buy it. So it was very exhilarating to be in the room and hear that. And then we did say at a certain point during the development of season one, we said, well, do you want to hear the ending? Because we never got to it. And she said no. So, yeah, that was interesting that she and sort of everybody else on the creative team at HBO Max were like, that's okay.

We will get there when we get there. And, you know, it's been fun to know it and have, you know, other people still wait. And your main actors don't know, right? No, no, no, no. I mean, they don't even know what is going to happen in the season. Both Jean and Hannah read scripts as they come out. So they're very unspoiled in terms of what's going to happen. I mean, some shows, I think people sit down with the actors and say, here's the basic trajectory

of the season. Here's what's going to happen. But it's interesting. They almost receive the scripts as if they're an audience member. You know, they kind of read them in order

before the table reads happen, which is kind of fun because then we get texts from Gene or Hannah being like, oh, no. Oh, my God. before the table reads happen, which is kind of fun because then we get texts from Jean or Hannah being like, oh, no, oh, my God. And they get to react in real time to things that are happening without having sort of like a pitch preview of what that is, which is cool. I think that's cool. And I think a lot of other actors on the show have kind of decided to do the same thing. They're just like, yeah, I'll read it right before the table read, and I'll be shocked.

Now you and your creative partner and wife, Lucia Anello, have a son. I think he's around two. Is that right? Yeah, he's two years and four months. How has that changed your outlook on work, the place that it has in your lives? Your family business is comedy. Yes, our family business is comedy. And we always say that right now Hax is our firstborn and our son is our second. But so it hasn't really changed our work too much. I mean, one thing,

you know, we write primarily from home and so we get to see him. The other thing is, is that we've always, I think, weirdly because we are together, it means that the lines are blurred from when work starts and stops. But we have always really tried to have a great work-life balance with our writer's room. And so our hours are, I think, very reasonable. And it means we get to, you know, wake up with him in the morning. We also get to wake up with him because he gets up at 530. He's such an early riser. It's like, come on. But I don't think it's really changed the way we work, to be honest.

It's certainly given us new material because he's very funny. Well, is it true that Lucio was in labor and directing at the same time like directing an episode of hacks yeah i woke up and she said um and i i had to i was directing a scene from an episode and also acting in the finale of season two on the day that she went into labor and so i woke up and she said hi um stay calm but i am in labor and have been since 2 a.m and and I was like what and she's like but I really think you need to work and I was like what do you what no way and she was like listen I think this is a long process I think I'm going to be in labor and she was honestly for like 48 hours so she was correct she was like you go I'm going to do what is called cue take which is where she can

remotely watch scenes I'll direct between contractions. I know that sounds mentally ill, but she did. And actually, in this particular scene, I had to be nervous. And so guess what? I had a lot to draw on. I was method that day. I was looking white as a ghost. I was very nervous and anxious to get out of there. But yeah, she directed while in labor. And it was a crazy day. Let's take a short break here and we'll talk some more. My guest is actor, writer, director and producer Paul W. Downs. He's nominated for acting in and writing for the series Hacks, which he co-created. He's already won the Emmy for Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series in 2021 for the pilot of Hacks.

He also wrote for and starred in the comedy series Broad City. More after a break. This is Fresh Air. There's this funny ongoing joke this season, this season three, where the writer Ava is trying to get work and your character Jimmy, as her manager, is trying to help her out and is sharing some of the writing assignments that are being solicited. I wanted to play a part of a clip where Jimmy and Ava and Kayla are talking about this. Please. So Debra and I agreed that while I'm with her, I should also spend time working on my own stuff. You absolutely should.

I would love to get a feature out of you. You and me both. So, I was wondering if you knew of any, like, open writing assignments that you think would be good for me? Yes, I have coverage from Kayla, actually. Woo! That I think might be interesting. Okay, great.

Literally every studio wants a procedural based on operation. Remember that game? Eh. Okay, what else that game? Okay. What else you got? Okay. So they've done some market research and they found that Gen Z thinks

the animated spoon from Beauty and the Beast is hot and apparently can get it. So they want something that focuses on his love life. Like a spinoff focusing on the animated spoon's love life. Love life. Um, all right. Okay. Give me another one, all right. Okay. Give me another one.

No, Spoon. Okay. Oh, I got it. I found it. This one is good for you. They're doing a bisexual Gumby. He bends both ways. You're bisexual.

Yeah, so that might be perfect for you. The working title, Gumby. Okay, you know what? I think I'm just going to try to write an idea of my own. Original is really harder to sell. Honestly, nobody wants it. But Roku is open, and they have two buckets they're looking to fill right now. Noisy Concepts and Black Joy.

I think you should focus on Noisy Concepts, though, since you are not black. No offense. You're not. Oh, okay. I missed one. They want to do something with Sleeping Beauty, but apparently this time it's consensual. That's a scene from Hacks. And I'm sure this might be a little exaggerated for effect, but are there really assignments like this that get posted and you're asked to submit for these or you were asked to submit for this kind of stuff earlier in your writing career? Well, you know, I haven't done a lot of writing assignments,

like open assignments, pitching on them. But I do think things like this exist. Certainly things around, you know, IP like Gumby, you know, or Operation. You know, there is like, obviously there's, you know, a lot of stuff that, whether it's Lego Movie or Barbie, you know, that comes out of existing IP like that. Obviously, we exaggerate it. But I also think, sadly, what Jimmy says about original ideas being harder to sell is true. I do think it's really hard to sell original ideas. I think, particularly right now, there's like a real crisis in selling comedy. I think it's comedy because it either can really hit and connect with a lot of people or be something

that is a little more niche and doesn't necessarily connect, I think there's less appetite to take risks on original voices and original stories. And so I do think, sadly, that one isn't an exaggeration at all. One of the plot points of the whole series is that Debra Vance has always wanted to host a late night talk show. And she came really close when she was a younger comic, but she didn't get it. And it had always been her dream. She talks about how she remembers watching Johnny Carson as a kid with her family, with her dad who would drink. And it was just like one of the times where they were together and could laugh because that was so rare. Can you talk about that? Because I think there is sometimes that

sadness and nostalgia that motivates people. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think obviously for comedians having a job like Johnny Carson had, it seems very much like the ultimate, you know, hosting a late night show, being able to be funny, but also make your guests funny in the way that he could or Debra Vance could make sense for it to just be, it got. But when Carson would come on, it was this sort of reprieve, this moment where he would laugh and they would all laugh. And she just thought, if I could just live in that hour. And so it's a moment where we learn really how personal it is for her beyond just what it would mean for her as a comic. And the fact that she had the chance to do it in the early 70s, and then because of this very public divorce and house fire that she was blamed for, you know, she was ostensibly canceled. That chance was taken away.

Not to give too much away, but Debra is getting this chance, second chance to do a late night show. And it's interesting that it's coming at a time when the, you know, I think the future of late night is a bit up in the air. You know, shows are still mostly hosted by white men, by men. But also there are fewer and fewer people watching late night. Is that something that interests you, like you and your co-creators, this bit about late night and that like in this universe you've created, a woman's getting to lead a show when late night is at this different place? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, exploring the ways in which show business has changed or is changing is really interesting to us because, you know, this is obviously a character study about two people. And we always said it was, it was about the, it was a peek behind the curtain and very much about their lives off stage. But it's also an examination of entertainment and comedy. It's, it's really a show about comedy. And so late night,

especially for comedians who get their first break on a late night show, whether it's doing stand up on a late night show or being interviewed and showing a little bit of their own sense of humor on a late night show. You know, it's still very much an important marker of your career, I think, especially for comedians. But like you said, it doesn't necessarily have the same meaning or impact that it did when Carson was on. So yeah, it is something that we're interested in exploring because we're interested in exploring comedy as a whole. But I do think, you know, and Jimmy, my character, says this this season when he makes the sort of case for Debra. You know, it says that a lot of the people that watch the late night shows now would be Debra's audience. I think Jimmy also says the line about how the people who watch late night are people who don't know how to turn on computers or something like that.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They can't work the remote. A lot of people, a lot of people that watch late night can't work the remote. And, you know, Deborah sold, you know, 50,000 physical DVDs last year. So. Yeah. No, it's true. She000 physical DVDs last year. Yeah. No, it's true. She makes a lot of sense for those people. Yeah. It's the late night audiences aging.

Although, you know, it's got a different iteration. Now, I do feel like sometimes I learn about people or I see comedians because of, you know, if I haven't watched it live, I'll see a clip. Right. You know, I mean, those things. I do think they still permeate culture. I do think they still can be kingmakers, those shows. I just think it's a different way of consuming it. Well, Paul W. Downs, congratulations on the success of Hacks, and thanks for joining us.

Thank you. Oh, thanks for having me. Paul W. Downs spoke with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Boldenado. He co-created the series Hacks. He's nominated for two Emmys, Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series and Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series. Hacks has been renewed for a fourth season. The first three seasons are streaming on Max. After a break, David Bianculli reviews the Turner Classic Movie Series Two for One, featuring guest presenters,

and talks about Turner's long history of guest presenters, including Sondheim and Trump. This is Fresh Air. A year ago, the new corporate owners of Turner Classic Movies cut back on the production of hosted conversations bracketing many of their movies. Filmmakers and fans protested, and TCM reversed course. Our TV critic David Bianculli says that in the past year, TCM has presented and curated movies more impressively than ever. One of the new additions to Turner Classic Movies this spring was a feature called Two for One. It invited a different guest programmer each week to select, present, and discuss two favorite films. The films, like the guests, varied wildly.

Spike Lee chose two films about media influence, 1951's Ace in the Hole and 1957's A Face in the Crowd. David Byrne selected two films about guardian angels, 1946's A Matter of Life and Death and 1987's Wings of Desire. Olivia Wilde chose two films about outrageous women, 1958's Annie Mame and the 1976 documentary Grey Gardens. The movies were wonderful, and so were the enthusiastic comments by the guest programmers. David Byrne, for example, helped me see things in Wings of Desire I'd never considered before. Some filmmakers, like Steven Spielberg and Martin Scorsese, took the double feature assignment literally and recreated actual double Bills from their respective impressionable childhoods.

Scorsese recreated from his youthful memories the seemingly mismatched 1948 twin Bill of Blood on the Moon and One Touch of Venus. TCM host Ben Mankiewicz asked Scorsese about seeing those double features as a kid, which led to a great discussion about watching movies in the 1950s and how an Alfred Hitchcock movie changed all that in 1960. So was there ever a time when you went to a double feature, when young Marty Scorsese went to a double feature, that you ever left after the first movie?

No. No, first of all, you walked in the middle, and you saw whatever was coming on, and you saw the end of whatever, the middle of the end. You mean you come in, you... No, there was no... The only time you were not supposed to walked in the middle and you saw whatever was coming on. You saw the end of whatever, the middle of the end. You come in. There was no reserve. The only time you was not supposed to come in the middle of a film was Psycho. So you'd routinely, I mean, you might. For Blood on the Moon, it started at one. You might show up at 1.37.

Oh, it showed up at 1.37. Yeah. And you watch that and then you watch it over. Right. And you say, everybody says, this is where we came in. And then people are stumbling over the, people are making noise, getting in and out of the roads. It's over for them. It's over for them. Yeah. They mean ruining for everybody else. We're laughing. But that was the thing until Hitchcock did that number at the Mayfair Theater in New York. And I saw it the third night at midnight, a psycho. With the command that you mustn't. With the command and a wild audience that can tell you. It's the sheer love of movies and the joy of talking about them that comes through here, and in almost every interview conducted on TCM.

The most recent guest programmer was actor Ryan Reynolds, whose appearance in late July was a chance for him to promote his then-upcoming movie Deadpool and Wolverine. But for Reynolds, appearing on TCM with Mankiewicz obviously was more than just another promotional stop. Ryan, this is a long time coming. I know you're a big TCM fan. Thank you for turning up for us. My God, I'm not normally nervous about doing interviews, but to show up on TCM, which is on, this is not an exaggeration, it is on in my home 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, because it's sort of my digital comfort blanket in a weird way. The true value of TCM is to make viewers care about movies, which it does by curating the film so intelligently and presenting them so respectfully. There's no equivalent for television, which makes me sad. But the way TCM introduces old movies to new generations makes me very, very happy. And Ryan Reynolds, too.

TCM really did give me a and just let it wash over you. The two films Reynolds selected were 1997's Gross Point Blank and 1987's Planes, Trains and Automobiles. A film Reynolds loves so much, he alludes to it in his Deadpool movies, and even allowed its odd couple structure to inform Deadpool and Wolverine. I try to put something from planes, trains, in almost everything I do. I mean, if you see Deadpool 1, Deadpool 2,

certainly Deadpool and Wolverine, which is now coming out, there's a nod to John Candy and or planes, trains in every single one of those movies. Every time I license the book that Candy's holding that's called Canadian Mounted, where he's reading it in the airport, every time I have to call Paramount and give them $5,000. And I get to take the book and I get to put it on camera and bury it somewhere in Deadpool. But there's also a lot of the writing is inspired by that odd couple pairing, which I

think is really beautiful. Turner Classic Movies was launched in 1994, one of the many brilliant ideas from Ted Turner, who also founded CNN. Guest programmers have been a recurring staple since 2005, and the mix of both movies and guests always has been interesting. Bill Cosby was the very first to appear. Also appearing as a guest in 2005 was Stephen Sondheim. And in 2006, one guest programmer sat down with TCM's original host, Robert Osborne, to discuss one of his favorite movies, Citizen Kane. The classic Orson Welles film was a drama about wealth and power and politics and the media. And the guest was Donald Trump.

Osborne got Trump to talk about the film's changing reputation, how filmmaker Welles was attacked by certain media, and if Trump related to that as well. So because it was such a great movie, because it was such an amazing piece of work, it became successful with time. Right. And actually became

more and more successful with time. But you can throw off that kind of criticism from when people are doing that. Well, you know, it's not that it's pleasant, but you throw it off.

Yeah. What I like to do is attack back. I mean, my basic modus operandi is to attack back. Somebody attacks me, and if it's unfair, you know what? If it's fair, I can take it. I can take it very nicely, and, you know, it's justified. But oftentimes, you're attacked unfairly,

and when that happens, I attack back. And Orson Welles would attack back. That was his personality. TCM turns 30 this year, and one thing has been true throughout its history. The movies it televises and the conversations it features about those films are valuable treasures.

David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. In the summer of 1982, eight science fiction films were released within eight weeks of each other. Movies like E.T., Blade Runner, and The Thing. On the next Fresh Air, we talk with Chris Nashawati about his new book, which chronicles how those movies, for better or worse, shape the sci-fi genre and the movie industry as we know it. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Meeble Donato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. This message comes from Grammarly. Back and forth communication at work is costly. That's why over 70,000 teams and 30 million people use Grammarly's AI to make their points clear the first time. Better writing, better results. Learn more at grammarly.com slash enterprise.