Fresh Air - Jenny Slate Finds Strength In Sensitivity

Episode Date: November 8, 2024

Comic Jenny Slate spoke with Terry Gross earlier this year about finding comedy in her feelings, motherhood, and growing up in a haunted house. Her latest stand-up special on Amazon Prime Video is Seasoned Professional and she has a new book of essays out now called Lifeform. Justin Chang reviews Clint Eastwood's new film, Juror #2.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at autographcollection.com. This is Fresh Air, I'm Tonya Mosley. Comic and actor Jenny Slate's recent comedy special, Season Professional, centers on her experiences of getting married, pregnant, and the pain and joys of giving birth. Her new book of essays, Lifeform, covers some of the same ground, but critic Thomas Floyd

of the Washington Post writes of the book that Slate wields dream logic and other devices to unpack the same experience in surrealist fashion. In her earlier Netflix comedy special Stage Fright, Slate describes growing up in a house her family believed was haunted. Jenny Slate is also a prolific voice actor. She co-wrote and starred in the Oscar-nominated animated film Marcel the Shell with Shoes On, adapted from the web series that she co-created. She's also done voice work for animated movies and TV shows like Bob's Burgers, Big Mouth,

the Lego Batman movie, The Secret Life of Pets, and Zootopia. She played a laundromat customer in everything everywhere all at once. And even though she was on just a few episodes of Parks and Recreation, many people know her for her role as Mona Lisa Saperstein. Terry Gross spoke with Jenny Slate back in March. Let's start with a clip of her recent comedy special season, Professional.

Here, she's talking about giving birth to her daughter. I had a baby. I'm not trying to skirt the issue or like deny it. Like I did it, I did it. She's there, but it does still feel like, I'm like, it wasn't me, I did it. It's hard to wrap my mind around it, and I was pregnant for a long time, and I understood that I was,

but even on the way to the hospital, when my body was like really hurting and stuff was starting to leak out, I was just like, kind of feels like someone's gonna sub in here though. Like, it's just such an extreme experience that I just was like, I don't know, it just doesn't feel like something I would do, you know?

You know? Like would I knock on someone's door after four dates at 2 a.m. and be like, I just need to tell you I'm in love with you, like yeah. Extreme stuff, I've done it, but like this, I was like, I don't know, it just doesn't seem like what she would do and like, anytime something's been hard or I haven't one do it, like I've always been able

to quit or be fired. It just felt like, I just don't feel like this was meant to be sent. Like I wanted to have the baby, but I was like, did you mean for me to do this though? Like. Jenny Slate, welcome back to for me to do this though? Like. Jenny Slate, welcome back to Fresh Air. That clip is so funny.

Thank you. So I'm wondering, you know, I said that in your 20s, you felt like an imposter adult. Now that you're a mother, do you feel like a genuine, actual, real adult? Well, I guess so, but I think I've also started to understand that that definition is like really rather subjective or it doesn't mean one thing, but you know, do I feel capable?

Do I feel like I'm supposed to be here doing what I'm doing? Yeah, I do. But I still have the same personality that I've always had and that's rather, that's kind of a stunner, I guess. Who did you expect to be after you became a mother? It's so strange, but it's like, I do say to my husband sometimes, like, when is Ida, our daughter, is she gonna have a moment where she's like, oh, it's, I'm calling her mom, but like, this is Jenny.

You know, it's just Jenny. It's like, I think I thought maybe some, I mean, I think the good thing is that my cheaper vanities have kind of fried off in the exhaustion and also the thing like seeing, you know, connecting with things that are really, really meaningful in parenting and, but I think I just thought maybe I would be calmer or be given info that I definitely have not been given. I have to keep finding it.

You know, you say in your special that, you know, people think my feelings are too much and no one wants to deal with them. Uh-huh. What kind of feelings do you think are perceived as too much? Being very sensitive. Let's see. Yeah, it's hard to think about it now, but I think because when I say it out loud there's a part of me that's like, no, you're good, you know, but the fact is that it's, yeah, sensitivity, insecurity. But I think the main one is maybe not a feeling but a behavior.

And it's the, like, constantly checking to see if the other person, how they're perceiving a situation or, like, what does your face mean? Why are you making that face? It seems today that you have, like, a micro, a tiny micro bad mood. What's it about? What's gonna happen? Why is it there? Is it is it gonna lead to something worse? Is there something you're not sharing? Why aren't you sharing it? Is it because you're afraid that I can't take it? Is it because you think I'm not a strong person? Do you secretly not like being around me? Am I stressful? You know and

then that's very stressful. Yes, yes, yes. Is that just all happening in your head or you're actually asking these questions to the other person? There's very little that happens in my head that's not going directly into my husband's face. But I also think that I've learned to be respectful about that. There are some things that are harder for me to tolerate. Like I see one flash of a thing and I'm like, what is that? You need to talk about it with me right now. But I will also say that I think that that's one of the things that my husband

likes the best about me because I really, I deeply respect him, but I also want to know him. And sometimes I don't feel that it benefits our relationship to let something pass for a certain amount of time without discussing it. But, you know, I bet sometimes he wishes that I could be a little more quote unquote chill, you know? Do we have to talk about it now? Yeah, like right when he's falling asleep, you know, does he need that? I actually know that that's like kind of a no,

a don't do it zone, you know? Yeah, so obviously there's a very kind of a no, a don't do it zone, you know? Yeah, yeah. So obviously there's a very kind of sensitive, reflective part of you, but when you're on stage, you turn that into a very almost loud kind of comedy. You know, you're laughing or sometimes screaming. Yeah. So how do you turn these kind of vulnerable, sensitive things

into the kind of comedy you do on stage? I think there already that the way that I would relay this experience, like if you asked me to tell you what it is right now, it would look the way it looks when I'm doing stand-up. There would be screaming, there would be a doorway into my imagination where I'm like imagining what would have even had to happen in the other person's head in order for them to interact with me in this way. And that is my experience. It is like kind of a, I feel like I'm having sort of like an emotional multimedia experience all

the time. I'm not one of these people that's like going through her life and being like, oh, that's material. Oh, you know, like, I'm going to do something interesting, so maybe it will be material. I'm just, I'm just going through and, and living my normal life. But I don't feel that I have to do anything to turn it into comedy. For example, the first clip that you played about, you know, whether or not I've done extreme things, it's like usually it's, you know, behavioral relational stuff that I've done. So it was knocking on someone's door from the morning to say, after four dates to say, I love you. That was the extreme thing that you improvised. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So when you first realized that you were sensitive and also sensitive in the kind of way where you're always like reading somebody else and trying to adjust for that, did you see that kind of sensitivity as a strength or a vulnerability, something you wanted to change? I think it was unconscious at first. It was just like something that I was doing and I didn't notice it. And that's really hard because there were returns on my perceptions. And you know, it was like they were never flattering, just like as a kid. It was like, you're doing something wrong.

They don't like it. You know, it was just like a lot of criticism that I didn't understand was like starting from within in a way that I was approaching general relational dynamics. Like a lot of people don't do that. And I probably could have had a different experience. But then I think that when I started doing stand-up and realized, and that was like I started doing stand-up in my early, mid-20s, maybe 23, 24. And I realized like, oh, a lot of what I want to talk about is how I feel. And I started to be more aware of it. And I also started going to therapy.

And I think I felt ashamed of how much it was so self-focused. Like, you know, what does this person think about me? I just felt like, why am I like this?? Like this is such a gross way to be. You know I can see how that kind of constantly reading another person's expressions or reading between the lines of what they're saying could be a real asset as a comic because as a comic or at least the kind of comic you are, you're reflecting out loud about your inner life. So, what can be complicated in the moment can really pay off, I think, as a comic.

Oh, I think so too. I also think that, like, it helps me to separate my real self from what I'm seeing in someone else and then internalizing. One thing I've noticed about myself is that when I am upset with something that someone else is doing, I have often, until very recently, tried to look inside of myself to figure out where the source of their bad behavior comes from in me. Like, what did I do to make this, you know, person on the date or boss that I have, what

did I do to make them be like this? And then in getting on stage and telling the story and needing it to be dynamic and that like other characters have to exist besides you, it allows you to be like, oh, I actually didn't do that. The other person, they're weird and they're weird. They did this weird thing. But then I'm also weird because my response was absolutely bizarre. And then you have like comedy. It's like, look at these weirdos doing weird things. And you know, with other people now, it's become more of like, how do I turn this into

empathy? Like if I am interested in this person, if I see myself starting to focus on them, make it about them. Ask questions, don't make weird assumptions and stow them inside of myself and suffer by that. That's a really interesting point to make it more about them like, are you okay? How are you feeling? As opposed to what's wrong with me? When you got into comedy, how old were you and what was your very early material like? I was in the improv group at Columbia and that to me actually feels like the start of it,

even though it was, you know, like a school activity. But that is really when I started to form as a comedian. Then I think when I was 23 was the first time that I started doing stand-up. And I believe the very first show that I started doing stand-up. And I believe the very first show that I did was about, like, I was talking about working in retail and how much I disliked it, but I can't really remember what it was.

But I do remember getting offstage and being like, but that was a weird fit. Like, why is it funny when I say things at dinner parties, but it's not, but I'm not talking about that on stage. And very quickly I was like, oh, it's a, that's what I'm supposed to do. I'm just supposed to do, you know, what I would do on a date or hanging out with a fun friend,

a new friend, and I want them to know what my life has been, I already do this. I already try to make people laugh in order to, like, engender a bond or a fondness. And so I just started going onstage and talking about my parents and my childhood. I think one of the main stories that I told over and over again, because I am fascinated by it, was how they got in a fight

with a contractor who was working on our house, and there was a hole in our roof because he was like, forget it. And he left. And how the bats, we had just so many bats in our house because we had an open roof for a while. And like it really, it still makes me laugh. I won't talk about anything on stage if it's like a dead subject for me.

Like I think of standup as, at least for me, you know, everybody does it differently, but it's like a nugget of a story that I have. And the more I tell it, it starts to like get brighter and brighter. And then suddenly it reaches a peak, and you can feel the light starting to go out. And sometimes, I'll be like, ugh, this is just a rock now.

It's nothing. I don't want to talk about it anymore. It's not funny to me. I'm done. But then 12 years will go by and suddenly I'll be like, oh yeah, remember that story about that girl that spit on my face at synagogue at Yom Kippur and I couldn't yell at her because it was the day of atonement. I'm like, that's ready to come back right now for me. I mean, I'm like, that's next, especially now that

I have a daughter. I'm still thinking about all the bats and wondering, did you think a lot about like early vampire films? Because that's what I associate bats with, but also bats are famous for all the dung in bat caves. Oh yeah. So did you end up with like dung on your bed or on the kitchen table? No, what happened was, so first of all, yes, vampires for sure. I was so afraid of vampires as a little girl and had a recurring dream of like that Dracula

was like trying to fool me into allowing him into my room so that he could kill me. I had this recurring dream where I would see a frog at the end of the bed, and I'd be so pumped that there was a frog. This is my personality, but I was so excited about this big green frog. I was just like, yes, this is so cool. I'm going to catch that frog, and then I would go towards it, and I was just like, yes, this is so cool. I'm going to catch that frog and then I would go towards it and you would be like, whoa, and it would be Dracula in like a tuxedo. I'd be like, oh no, I'm dead. And that and then wake up in a sweat.

And so I got really, really frightened and I slept with my head under the covers, which became this like huge thing for my parents that they were like, you're going to suffocate, you're going to suffocate. and I just didn't care. Like, I just, they told me this is really unsafe, but, and they had my grandfather who was like the guy, like I would listen to anything he said, and he was like, you're gonna suffocate, and I was like, yep, got it, but I still did it.

And then my dad, he would really come out And then my dad, he would like really come out in the middle of the night in his nighttime apparel, which at the time was a very, very long night shirt that he worked at the time at the computer company called Wang, which was like before IBM, like it was like one of the first computer companies, and it was called Wang. And he had this like shirt that said Wang on it, and he would run down the hallway with an old tennis racket and swat the bats against the hallway. We had like bat blood on our wallpaper, I remember just being like, he got one.

Like instead of a mosquito, it was a bat. Yeah, just such a bummer, like just such an intense way to live and be. And I thought it was really funny. I talked about it on stage for so long. Because I was fascinated by it. Like, wow, I thought this was normal for so long that I didn't even think about it. And now I realize that this was actually very specific. Now I'm thinking also about growing up in a house that your family, I mean, including your parents,

especially your father, believed was haunted. Yeah. So tell us about that. You talk about that in your first comedy special. Yeah, I believe it was haunted too. You know, take it or leave it. Like, everyone has their own opinions about the spirit world and apparitions.

But yeah, my dad had, he had discovered a packet of love letters that were written to one of the previous owners of the house, but they weren't from her husband. They were from some sort of a captain of a ship. And when my parents first moved in, my dad, my mom woke up smelling pipe smoke and my dad smoked a pipe at the time. And she called out to him to come to bed and then rolled over and realized that he was asleep. And so she woke him up and she was like,

you left your pipe burning, you're gonna burn down the house. And so he went out into the hallway and saw on the stairs, says he sort of saw it but didn't see it, but he saw it, but he didn't see it, a man in sort of like a heavy like mariner's, like seaman's jacket walking up the stairs. And there was a bunch of other stuff that happened. And I'm the only one that never saw anything actually. Which in itself is scary to me because I feel like there's like a backlog.

You know it's all gonna like come at once. So between the bats and your parents thinking you lived in a haunted house. That sounds like a horror film. Yeah it does doesn't it? Produced a comedian. Yeah I was scared of our house it? Um, produced a comedian. Yeah, I was scared of our house growing up. Like, I was sad, certainly sad, when my parents moved out. But it was a very beautiful house.

A lot of parents would say, you know, it was just coincidence or dad just woke up and he was still like half-dreaming. So don't worry, cause there's no such thing as a haunted house. But that's apparently not what your parents said. No, I know. They did not. I mean I think I think we were all a bit proud of it too. You know it's mystical and I think it was it was sort of a point of it was kind of like a treasure but like a terrible one to have. And, and

you know, I don't remember ever thinking that my parents would lie to me, you know, like even if it might be frightening or hurtful. And I think they're very thoughtful people. But the other thing is like, they might not have known how scared I was. Terry Gross speaking with Jenny Slate in March. The comic and actor has a new book of essays that cover the same ground as her comedy special Season Professional. The new book is titled Lifeform. We'll hear more after a break. And Justin Chang reviews the new film, Drurah Number Two, directed by Clint Eastwood. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.

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Established 100 years ago, the Kresge Foundation works to expand equity and opportunity in cities across America. A century of impact, a future of opportunity. More at kresge.org. This is Fresh Air. Let's return to Terry's interview with comic and actor, Jenny Slade in March. Her comedy special, Season Professional, and a book of essays is about getting pregnant,

giving birth, and becoming a mother. Slade also co-created, co-wrote, and starred in the Oscar-nominated animated film Marcel the Shell with Shoes On. She's also done a lot of voice work for animated TV shows and movies, including Bob's Burgers, Big Mouth, and Batman the Lego Movie, as well as The Secret Life of Pets and Zootopia. I want to ask you about Marcel the Shell with Shoes On, which started as an animated web series that you created with your then, were you still married when you created it or was

he your boyfriend then? I'm trying to get the sequence right. Oh yeah, we were just, yeah, we were boyfriend and girlfriend when we made the first Marcel the Shell short film. And remind me of his name. Dean Fleischer-Kamp. So you and Dean started the series as boyfriend and girlfriend, and then you were married, and then you divorced and continued the series together, which is another story.

I should say that the film version started as a web series, and then the film adaptation, which you also did with Dean, was Oscar nominated for Best Animated Feature. How did you come up with the idea of having a shell as the leading character in a story? Well, it started with me doing the voice. I was like just as a goof doing this voice. I was like doing a weird voice while we were... Can you do it for us? Yeah, I can do it right now.

This is what it sounds like. Yeah. Okay. I was doing it while we were at a wedding. He said he would make a video for a friend's comedy show but he hadn't done it. He was like, can I interview that voice, basically, we didn't have the character yet. And so we got him from the wedding.

He interviewed me more. I said some more stuff. He had enough audio that it was like, oh, we're dealing with someone who's really small, it seems. And then he went to the local arts, like, the craft store and the toy store in Brooklyn where we lived. And he bought like a kind of like a knockoff of a Polly Pocket. It wasn't a Polly Pocket. It was sort of like a just a brand X one. And he did a bunch of different character designs and finally he took some like molding, you know, like what would you call it, like

plasticine or like molding clay and put it like, what would you call it, like plasticine or like molding clay and put it in the shell hole and stuck the eye in there and glued the shoes on. And I came back to our apartment and he was like, I think this is the guy. And I was like, oh yeah, that's the guy for sure. And so just kind of both of us feeling our way, but he is 100% responsible for the character design and I just think it's so... I just think Marcel looks perfect.

I think he's a perfect-looking creature. When you were creating Marcel's voice, I think you said it was a voice you had used before. I think I had tried to use it one time when I was on SNL, but I vocally could not figure out how to hold onto it. And I had lost it. I couldn't find it. I couldn't SNL, but I vocally could not figure out how to hold onto it. And I had lost it. I couldn't find it. I couldn't do it, literally.

And it was like, great, like another failure here. And I mean, looking back on it, I'm really glad that I didn't spend that in that context, just because it led to so much more creative control for me to do it just outside of that community. But I, yeah, I suddenly just came back and I held on and I was able to click into it. And the more I do it, the more I can find it right away. Can you do it a little bit more so we can hear it? Yeah. I mean, you could probably just, like, I can do it, like, whenever I want to, but probably at the end of a day of, like, recording it, I get, like, a little, I get tired, like, my voice feels tired, but it doesn't, like, hurt to do it or anything,

but even doing it, it's almost like if a person were to do, like, repeated movements with their body, they get into, like, a more, like, clarified mental state. That's into like a more like clarified mental state That's like kind of how I feel about it as well. It's such an earnest voice I've heard you say that you talk to your daughter your three-year-old daughter Sometimes in Marcel's voice. How did you start doing that? Um, I talk in Marcel's voice sometimes without realizing it Um, a lot of times I of times there's a running commentary, especially if we're in traffic or we're in a line,

it's really fun in a car with just my family to be like, this is taking forever. It's just how to get into it. The first time she heard it, she was like, what is that? She thinks he lives inside of me, time she heard it, like her, you know, she was like, what is that? What is that? And she thinks he lives inside of me, but that's not disturbing to her. She also knows what he looks like, but she never asked to see him. She just wants to talk to him.

What do you tell her in Marcel's voice that's different from what you tell her in your voice? Marcel gets more info from her. So actually, as Marcel, I just ask her questions. Like, why didn't you like that sandwich? What was wrong with it? What happened at school today? She'll give Marcel a bigger answer, which is really nice.

Then she likes singing with Marcel. Do you want to sing in Marcel's voice and tell us how you do that? Yeah, it's like, okay, this is one of the songs that Ida and I sing together. There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. The corn is as high as an elephant's eye. And it looks like it's climbing straight up to the sky. A song from Oklahoma.

I love that song. Oh, what a beautiful morning. It's the best. Yeah, okay. That's so great. Is it hard to maintain the voice while you're singing? I think it's easier to sing in Marcel's voice than it is to speak in Marcel's voice. Why is that?

I'm not sure. I really actually don't know. I do a lot of voice work, but I'm not in any way a trained performer. I've not been to an acting conservatory, a conservatory or singing classes or, you know, nothing. So I'm just kind of, I'm just working with whatever I have. Now you do voices for other animated series. You've done a voice for Bob's Burgers and Big Mouth, Zootopia, other animated films.

So do you want to do the Bob's Burgers voice for us and tell us about creating it? Well, in Bob's Burgers, I kind of just talk like this. I play a character named Tammy. She's not nice. She's really selfish. She wants everyone to look at her right now. It's just kind of like me doing a mean, my version of a mean girl voice.

Mm-hmm. And they wrote that character and then asked me to play it, which I love. doing a mean, my version of a mean girl voice. And they wrote that character and then asked me to play it, which I love. And then I'm also on another show on Fox called The Great North, which is so funny, written by the, and created by the Mala No sisters, who they were, they were, wrote on Bob's Burgers as well. And I play a teenager named Judy. And like, it's always a version of my voice,

but with Judy, it's like, I just kind of like lighten it up a little bit. And I just sort of like, just like don't enunciate as much. And like, I'm just like kind of think about things and yeah, like, you know, I just like kind of talk about this. And it's sort of my voice, but I just like just a little bit sort of more relaxed, pulled back. Well, we have to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you.

If you're just joining us, my guest is comic and actor Jenny Slate. Her new comedy special, Season Professional, is streaming on Amazon. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. On the Embedded Podcast, every Marine takes an oath to protect the Constitution. Against all enemies, foreign and domestic. This is the story of a Marine in the Capitol on January 6. Did he break his oath? And what does that mean for all of us?

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This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to my interview with comic and actor Jenny Slate. Her new comedy special, Seasoned Professional, is about getting pregnant, giving birth, and becoming a mother, and it's about a lot of other subjects along the way. How did you know that you could do voices? Oh, man. I mean, forever, it's been my delight to do voices. And I've just always thought the voices are the funniest thing.

Like as a kid, I thought Robin Williams as the genie was just, it was like drugs for me. Like I just thought that's the best. I loved Saturday Night Live. I loved when people spoke in voices that weren't theirs. I just thought that that was one of the funniest, most startling, eye-catching things that a performer could do. And I've just always loved it and always tried to do as many voices as I can. But I'm really bad at like accents from other countries. I can't do any like real, like real

accents. Like I can't do any, I don't think, at all. Were there other animated characters whose voices you loved growing up? Oh, yeah. I mean, to the like, you know, the trickly, just sickening, like the trickly sweet voices of the chipmunks were, you know, I just like loved how that sounded and would like use the record player to speed things up

so that I could hear that tone. But I guess, I guess my favorite voice actually on TV was Peewee. Oh, Peewee was great. Yeah. Yeah. He really screamed. He really yelled at people. Right. You know, which I love. And I always thought Peewee was... I mean, Peewee has some attitude as the character, but, um...

I guess that got deep in me, because I love to scream on stage. You do, and I was going to bring that up. Like, you have so many different screams. Yeah. And sometimes you'll do several different screams consecutively. Yeah. So I'm going to ask you, if you you don't mind and if you don't think it'll blow out your voice, to back up from the mic and do some screams for us. How about

before each scream, tell us what you're thinking of that this scream represents. Like what context you'd use that scream in. Right, okay. So I think like, if I'm like so startled by something that I realize is happening and I can't stop it, the scream would kind of be like, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh uh, like you're going on like a big ride. like you know, for example, I think I just did this on Seth Meyers and I don't think about I it. I don't preload my screams or even know that they're gonna come. But I know when I'm performing, I'm allowed to do them. But one time a fortune teller gave me a really scary fortune.

And that reaction that I had was, ah! And that's the truth. The screams are the truth. They're the level at which I'm feeling things. What did the fortune teller tell you? At the bachelorette party that preceded my first wedding, she told me that I hadn't met the right man, but that I would know it when I met him. Thanks for that.

Richard's right. Yeah, should have listened. Can you do one more? Thanks for that. Richard's right. Yeah. Should have listened. Can you do one more? Sure. I wonder what... Yeah. Then there's one that's like a variation that happens when you're watching something and you don't know what's going on,

which is like, that's more Tarzani. Do you ever hurt your voice when you scream? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, just because they live in Alaska and they're always falling off a cliff or, you know, they're on a sled or something like that. But I do know how to do it. I will say on stage, I'm looking for catharsis. And there are things that I don't have a plan, but somewhere deep inside knows that I want to do it and I need to do it. And I will fully scream. And it does. I'll end up hoarse for sure after that but there's a difference between you know pretending

to run really fast and running really fast. One of the things you failed at was one of the most important turning points in your life all your life you want to be on Saturday Night Live and then you got the job and you accidentally turned Frick into the four letter expletive. You were supposed to use the the euphemism. Yeah. But the real word came out so the Frick turned into the four letter expletive and you were fired. I think that was the reason you were fired. No I don't think so actually. Okay. Yeah I think I generally just didn't fit in.

Socially, I felt like I fit in. I'm still friends with most of the people that I worked with, but I did not click in as a person who could work there for whatever reason. I just was not a good fit. Yeah, I would imagine that that's why. Did they explain why? No, they didn't.

And I actually found out that I was fired on the internet. So it just kind of was like... Was that through word of mouth that it was on the internet or a press release? Yeah, I think it was on like Deadline Hollywood and somebody that I knew was like, oh no, I'm so sorry I saw the article in the trades basically and I was just like, what? You know, like I didn't see it. I hadn't seen it yet.

Your first comedy special was called Stage Fright and you attribute your stage fright in part from getting fired at Saturday Night Live. What's the connection? I don't think it's like the firing. I think it was like also Twitter was like relatively new then. I had like no understanding of myself as a public person. I just thought of myself the way people used to think about themselves as like just in their life. And maybe if someone had a picture of you, it was like, you know,

in an album. Like I just didn't understand that there would be an online forum commenting on me. And yeah, like, you know, I'm a normal person in my way. It hurt my feelings. And it made me anxious and less willing to show myself to people. But I also knew that that was not a good place to end. So I tried to work through it. When I interviewed in 2014 as our time was about to run out, we had been talking about stage fright and how you went to a hypnotist who you kind of attribute to helping you overcome the stage fright and you think you were hypnotized. So you went back to the hypnotist to help you overcome your habit of sleep eating and

I had to cut off that part of the conversation because we had to end the interview, our time was running out. And so I'd like to pick up where we left off the last time. I'm not sure what sleep eating is. Well, it used to be, and also like, I used to also just like smoke a lot more weed. You know, now I don't anymore. It's been maybe six years since like, there has been any marijuana in my life.

And like it makes me so paranoid and it's just, I'm never going back. But maybe it was a function of that, of just like being hungry from what they call the munchies. But for me, what it was, was like, I would be almost fully asleep and go into the kitchen and I would eat something and then usually not return it. So we would like wake up in the morning

and go into the kitchen and there would be ice cream out, things like that, like things that had been ruined. I think it's a major sign of anxiety. It's not something that I don't sleep eat anymore, but I can tell when I am fretting and worrying because I usually wake up around three in the morning and have to go and have like a little snack. And then the second I have it, my mind goes blank and I'm able to rest. But it only happens when I'm anxious.

Do you think this hypnosis helped with that? I don't think so. I don't think so. And I also think that I really pushed mostly through whatever he did to me to get rid of the stage fright. It was better for a while and then it just came back so much around the time. Oh really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just came, like it's just, I really want to do a live stage show, like a, kind like a one-woman show. And the thing holding me back is like, I am delighted when I think about the rehearsal process. I'm delighted when I think about things like set design,

what the material is, and I am so terrified thinking of, like grossed out genuinely thinking of the time between like a matinee and an evening performance. And like the time like when I play clubs, which is not that often, but I do like two shows a night. And after getting off stage after the first show, the feeling of like, yeah, I did it. And then the realization that like I have to go again

is it's like, what is the, it's like a sys-o-fis--sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys-sys It's like, I don't like it. It's not a good fit for me. And I have to take whatever success I've earned to allow myself a schedule that is, like, doable for me in a, like, a neurological way. Like, it just, it really, really messes with me, the stage fright. JANIE SLATE, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. Thank you for having me back.

It's really nice to... It's always nice to be invited in once but I always say it's the return, you know, that means that you're okay. You're more than okay. Thank you so much for having me. You're great. This is a real pleasure. Thank you. Jenny Slate talking with Terry Gross earlier this year. The comic and actor has a new book of essays titled Lifeform.

Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new Clint Eastwood film, Juror Number Two. This is Fresh Air. The NPR app cuts through the noise, bringing you local, national, and global coverage. No paywalls, no profits, no nonsense. Download it in your app store today. This is Fresh Air. In the courtroom drama, Juror Number Two, the latest movie directed by Clint Eastwood, Nicholas Holt plays a man called up for jury duty

and is confronted with a moral crisis. The movie also features performances by Tony Colette and J.K. Simmons. Our film critic Justin Chang says, it's a thoughtful complex story and one of Eastwood's better recent films, and recommends that you see it in theaters while you can. Last week, Warner Brothers opened jur Juror No. 2 in limited release, with minimal fanfare, and no plans to report the film's domestic box office. It's not the typical treatment for a Clint Eastwood movie, especially one that some think

might be the last Clint Eastwood movie. I hope they're wrong. Either way, the fact that Eastwood's longtime studio would bury his latest speaks to the various crises that have befallen the industry in general, and Warner's in particular. At 94, Eastwood seems ever more like an anomaly in American filmmaking, a Hollywood legend with nothing left to prove, still cranking out his unfussy mid-budget dramas for a grown-up audience that the major studios have all but abandoned. Juror number two is actually one of his better directed efforts of late,

certainly compared with recent disappointments like Cry Macho and The Mule. There's a little old-school John Grisham in this movie's legal thriller DNA, even though it features an original screenplay, by Jonathan Abrams. Nicholas Holt stars as Justin Kemp, a Georgia-based magazine writer who's expecting a baby with his wife, played by Zoe Deutsch. It's a high-risk pregnancy, and so the timing isn't ideal when Justin gets selected as a juror in a major murder trial. The defendant, James Scythe, stands accused of killing his girlfriend, Kendall Carter, after the two had a heated argument in a bar

one night. As the facts of the case emerge, Justin, a recovering alcoholic, realizes that he was at that same bar on the very night in question. Suddenly alarmed that he could be more involved than he thought, he seeks advice from his AA sponsor, Larry, who also happens to be a lawyer, played by Kiefer Sutherland. So I went to clear my head and found myself at Rowdy's Hideaway. Ordered a drink and sat there for a while, then I got up and left. I went about a quarter of a mile and I hit something. I got out the car and I looked around, I checked, I didn't see anything, and I figured it was a deer that ran off.

And then I got back in the car and went home. Okay, what's the problem? I got called for jury duty, the Kendall Carday case. They found her body in a creek bed about a quarter mile from right east either way last October. What are you telling me? Maybe I didn't hit a deer.

Larry advises Justin to keep quiet, lest he face serious prison time. But Justin, worried that his silence could send an innocent man to prison, tries to plead Sight's case during deliberations, which quickly turn contentious. There's a creakiness to the writing here, the bickering sounds forced, and some of the jurors veer toward cultural stereotypes. But others are more sharply drawn. J.K. Simmons brings his hard-nosed intelligence to the role of one of Justin's few allies, while Cedric Yarbrough finds the simmering tension in every line as a juror convinced of the defendant's guilt. It all plays like a barbed riff on Twelve Angry Men,

where one man seeks to sway his fellow jurors, not to bring about justice, so much as assuage his own conscience. But Justin isn't the only character held up for moral scrutiny. The courtroom's most compelling figure is the prosecutor, Faith, played with terrific nuance by Tony Collette. Faith does her job with skill, integrity, and a great deal of ambition. She's running for district attorney, and she knows that securing a conviction could help her chances. Collette and Holt played a mother and son in the 2002 comedy About a Boy, and while the

actors don't share too much screen time in Juror Number 2, beyond one doozy of a late scene, it's still a pleasure to see them reunited more than twenty years later. Holt is especially strong as a man wrestling quietly with past demons and present dilemmas, and whose response is to rationalize like crazy. After all, maybe Scythe, a man known for his rough past, really did kill his girlfriend. And even if he didn't, how can Justin turn himself in, just as he and his wife are about to start a family? Eastwood may take his characters to task, but he also sees the bigger picture. He's long had a skeptical view of institutions and their failings, whether it's a corrupt police force and changeling,

or the manipulations of the media in movies like Sully and Richard Jewell. In Juror Number Two, he takes measured aim at the American justice system, from the dog at attorneys muddling their way through the evidence, to the exhausted jurors who just want to deliver a quick verdict, to the procedural fault lines and blind spots that can make the truth seem so elusive. It's a thorny, thoughtful film, and I wish its own studio had more confidence in it. If Eastwood does make another one, I wouldn't mind seeing him take on another broken American system, rife with cynicism, self-interest, and compromise. And that, of course, is Hollywood itself.

Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed Juror Number Two, directed by Clint Eastwood. On Monday's show, Marine Corps veteran and essayist Phil Kly examines the moral complexities of war, examining what he calls the growing disconnect between American civilians and the military. I talk with Kly about his reflections on the role of the U.S. military in ongoing wars and the priorities of incoming President Donald Trump. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.

Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld, and Diana Martinez. For Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley. This message comes from Grammarly. Back-and-forth communication at work is costly. That's why over 70,000 teams and 30 million people use Grammarly's AI to make their points clear the first time. Better writing, better results. Learn more at Grammarly.com slash enterprise.