Fresh Air - Jessie Buckley loves the ‘shadowy bits’ of her characters

Episode Date: March 2, 2026

Jessie Buckley spoke with Terry Gross about her role as Shakespeare’s wife, Agnes, in ‘Hamnet,’ directed by Chloé Zhao. She’s nominated for an Oscar and already won a Golden Globe and a SAG Award for her performance. The Irish actor talks about motherhood, the singing competition show she did in her teens, and the infamous crying scene in ‘Hamnet.’ To manage podcast ad preferences, review the links below:See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is fresh air. I'm Terry Gross. The film Hamnet is nominated for eight Oscars, including Best Actress for my guest Jesse Buckley. Hamnet's other nominations include Best Picture, best director for Chloe Zhao, who's also nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay, along with Maggie O'Farrell, the author of the novel Hamlet, which the film is based on. Buckley plays William Shakespeare's wife, Anyas Hathaway. Little is known about Shakespeare's real wife. The film is largely an imagined version of her. What's true is that the couple's son, Hamnet, died at age 11, from the plague. In the film, he catches it from his twin sister. Shakespeare has already left the couple's home in the country to go to London and work on writing and staging his plays and has promised to bring the rest of

the family as soon as he settled and has a little more money. When Hamnet gets sick and it's clear his life is in jeopardy, Anya's calls for her husband to come home, but he doesn't make in time. Shakespeare and Hamnet don't get to say goodbye, and Anas is left to experience the horror of her son's death without her husband. In this scene, when Shakespeare does return, she's angry that he came too late, but she also feels guilty that she didn't pay enough attention to Hamnet while she was caring for their daughter who survived the plague. Shakespeare is played by Paul Meskell. I should have paid her more attention. I would have been.

I always thought she was the one to be taken away when all the while it was him. I was full. No, there's nothing anyone could have done to save him. You did everything that you could. Of course I did. You weren't here. I would have cut my heart out and given it him. I would have laid my life down on the ground for him.

And no one would take it. I know. No, you don't know. You don't know. You weren't here. He died in agony. He was in agony. And yes.

And he cried. And he cried. He cried, and he cried, and he's a little body with a rat and paste. Don't shush me. He was so scared, and you weren't here. Hamlet has become known for leaving a lot of people in tears. Buckley won a Golden Globe for her role on Hamlet. Other films for which she received various awards or nominations include

The Lost Daughter, Women Talking, Beast, Wild Rose, and Men. Her next film, The Bride, a feminist take on the Bride of Frankenstein, opens March 6th. On TV, she was a star of season four of Fargo and a star of the HBO series Chernobyl. She won an Olivier Award, Britain's equivalent of a Tony, for her performance in a revival of cabaret. Hamnet is now playing in select theaters nationwide and is also available to watch streaming at home. Jesse Buckley, welcome to Fresh Air and congratulations on your Oscar nomination and your Golden Globe win. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

My pleasure. What were you able to learn about Shakespeare's real wife? And how does that compare with how she's depicted in the movie, how you depict her in the movie? Well, I think before I'd read this book, you know, what had been written about Shakespeare's wife was it wasn't great. You mean it wasn't positive or there wasn't a lot? No, it wasn't positive. I think she was kind of given the title of being a woman that had kept him back from his genius

and I think what Maggio Farrell so brilliantly did not just with Agnes and Shakespeare's wife but also with Hamnet, their son was to bring these people who in our imaginary world filled Shakespeare and the plays that have lived for, ever and given them status beside this great man

which is full and vibrant In this imaginary version of her life people think she must be part which because she was born in the woods and so was her mother and she knew so much

about herbs and herbal medicine and got along with animals she was a falconer So we don't know how true that is, right? No, but I think it's interesting. You know, I think what is so frightening about her? Like, that was the question I was asked. Like, what is it about this woman that is other

that people feel a need to call her a forest witch or a daughter of a forest witch or, you know, somebody that is too much against, the society at the time. And my experience of playing this incredible woman was her uncompromising embodiment and connection to nature

and her own elemental nature. And I guess at that time, it was kind of the beginning of puritism and capitalism and paganism was kind of becoming something scary and people were beginning

to decipher themselves off like machines. You know, how you could work a land and create produce was something that at that time in history was becoming conscious in the culture. And yet this woman was just deeply connected to nature. One of the producers, Pippa Harris, is quoted in the production notes, talking about how you embody the character of Agnes. She says about you, she's quite a wild child in the same.

sense that she's very much at one with nature. She's slightly mystical. She believes in the soul and the spirits, and she's a really caring person. When you hear that, does that sound like you? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I grew up around a lot of nature. I grew up in southern Ireland in a town called Killarney, which has lots of mountains and lakes. And there was a lot of freedom and expression by just living in that place when we were younger. And I think when you grew up in a landscape like that, your mind and your soul is wild. You know, things just grow because they want to grow. There's no planting or formula to the nature in that place.

And I think that was really informative to me as a child and still is. Getting back to that quote, do you believe in spirits and consider your yourself a little mystical because I'd love to hear more about that if you care to share it. Spirits, I do. I believe in energy. I believe that like you have a conversation with somebody's energy and spirit, absolutely. And I think even people who've passed that there is a spirit in the very memory of them that lives on. And, um, and, um, and, um, and, um, and, um, um, and, um, um, um, and, um, um, I guess in the mystical sense is like, I guess what that's making me think of is like it's about curiosity, isn't it? Curiosity of curiosity of an unknown and a seeking.

I don't, yeah, and I guess I like to live in that place is to be curious about something unknown. One of the best known scenes in the movie is when your son has just died and you're just like howling with grief. and despair. And I'm wondering, is that something that you rehearsed a lot or prepared for, or did you try to be spontaneous about it? Because, like, that's a scene that really brings out everyone's tears. No, I didn't know that that was going to happen or come out. It wasn't in the script.

I think really Chloe asked all of us, to dare to be as present as possible. And of course, leading off to, you know, you're aware that this scene is coming. But that scene doesn't stand on its own. By the time I'd met that scene, I had developed such a deep bond with Jacoby Jupe who plays Hamlet

and Paul and Emily Watson and all the children. And we really were a family. And Jacoby Jupe who plays Hamlet is such an incredible little actor and an incredible soul. And we really were a team. And I think we both recognise where we might go, but where that might end we didn't know.

And look, the death of a child is unfathomable. I don't know where it begins and ends. Out of utter respect, I tried to touch an imaginary truth of it in our story as best I could, but there's no way to define that kind of grief. I'm sure it's different for so many people. And in that moment, all I had was my imagination, but also this relationship that was right in front of me with this little boy.

and that's what came out of that moment. You hadn't yet become a mother, but you did get pregnant, I think, like a week before Hamnet opened. Do I have that right? A week after I wrapped filming. Ah, okay. Something was cooked.

Were you trying, or was that really a surprise that seemed so, like, The timing of it just seems amazing. I wanted to become a mother for a long time. And schedules, life, being in different places, work. You know, it was hard. And that was kind of like a beautiful thing, but also an intense thing to kind of feel that in my own personal life

beside this mother that I was living inside in Agnes. The thing I've realized becoming a mother is it humbles you down to your knees and any idea you think of yourself in being a mother or becoming a mother or in birth or any of it, I mean, good luck because it's never like that. it always brings you on a way more kind of wild journey. I'm wondering if portraying the mother of Hamanet and the wife of William Shakespeare spooked you because you had just experienced the grief that a mother has when her 11-year-old son dies and now you are about to become a mother.

So were you spooked by the thought, a son can die, a child can die? I wasn't spooked. Not because I didn't think about it, but I don't know, what are you going to do? You know, like lock yourself up and not kind of, you know, my work, I'm not scared to touch the shadowy bits. I like them. They like, help me. I think my experience when I don't touch them, is that they show up in a more destructive kind of bigger way.

So actually, the thing that this story offered me, that brought me into this next chapter of my life as a mother was tenderness, you know. And that was a word and a feeling that I think I didn't know was what I was looking for. And a mother's tenderness, it's ferocious, you know, to birth. is no joke. To be born is no joke. And the minute something's born into the world, you're always in the precipice of life and death.

That's our path. You know, we have, we all know we're going to head towards that destination, I guess. And I wanted to be a mother so much that that overrode the thought of being a mother. afraid of it. The director, Chloe Zhao, sent the cast to a coach who uses dream analysis as a tool for insights into who you are and who your character is. Did you find that helpful?

Yeah, I actually introduced Chloe to this woman that we worked with. And I've used it as a way to create for a few years now. I find it so helpful. I'm not very good at linear thoughts or projections and I found school very difficult because it was too linear and formulaic and I couldn't learn like that and with characters and work it's the same

I don't want to project an idea onto the women that I play until I've lived beside them and then in them and I find dreams of really curious things and I, you know, when you open a book or you open the script and the world of that script begins to kind of reflect itself around you, your unconscious does stir the waters

towards that world. And I find it a very interesting and useful tool to abstractly enter into an essence of a being rather than projecting an idea on top of them. And I create so much from this way of working. I write, I collect pictures, I'm like a magpie, you know, music.

I paint, it spills out of me when I start working like that. So I find it so useful. Would you be willing to share an example of a dream that you found useful in making Hamnet or another film that you made? I remember when I was filming Hamlet. I had a dream, I think it was leading up to the death scene. And we were in, I'm going to get, you know, I'll just give you, I can't remember totally. But, you know, and I, just to say, like, dreams are the language of metaphors as well. So, anyway, this dream, I remember being in an ocean.

And I knew that there was a little girl stuck under a rock at the bottom of the ocean. And I knew I had to try and get her out. and I was kept trying to swim down to this place. And as I was swimming, this huge stingray came and started to like, basically the whole ocean became the belly of a stingray. And he was kind of devouring that world. And I remember when we got into shoot that scene, I definitely put that stingray.

somewhere in that room on that day. Do you see the stingray as being a metaphor for death, kind of taking over, consuming everything, grief? I guess so. I don't know. I mean, it could be many different things for many people. And I try not analyze it. I try and like just let it be kind of free thinking, you know, a free, like a thought that can...

Sometimes I have dreams, you know. Like I had a dream three years ago and I read a script recently and that dream came like straight to the front of my mind and I was like oh this script is this dream and actually this is like something that

I know I need to like get very curious about this dream like what happens if I return to this dream and try and work on it once a week for six months Like, will something get unraveled? Just as an exercise, not for like anything woo-woo. It's just curious, isn't it? And it's also just to say it's not a new thing.

Like the surrealists were using it. Dali was using it. I'm pretty sure David Lynch used his dreams in his films as Felini. There's this extraordinary Felini book of all of his dreams. And he's created, it's this most beautiful book where, all the characters that he's found in his dreams are all painted in this book. And you can see them in like eight and a half and La Strada. So it's not a new tool.

It's just something to get curious about. In addition to starring in Hamnet, you star in a new film called The Bride, which is Maggie Gyllenhaal's take on the Bride of Frankenstein. Like, what if the Bride of Frankenstein was a feminist who spoke out, you know, about misogyny and corruption, but she's also totally wild and out of control, really nasty. So it must have been, it must have been such a kind of shock from going to making the bride to making Hamnet. Because I think even though the bride's opening later than Hamlet did, I think you made the bride first.

I made the bride first, yeah. Oh, and also, you know, in Bride of Frankenstein, you're reanimated, like you've died and you're brought back to life, like Frankenstein. Yeah. Whereas, you know, in Hamnet, that's all about a dead son, staying dead, living in spirit. Well, kind of. Living in spirit. Yes. Like, Shakespeare reincarnates his son through the vessel of a story, which is what happens at that end, you know, is when she reaches out, she can touch the thing that she thought she'd lost.

because her husband has created the greatest magic trick of her life. When her son dies, it's so ginormous that she can't find him until that moment when the vessel of a story can help you, yeah, touch the things that you can't hold by yourself. We need to take another break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jesse Buckley, and she stars in Hamlet for which she won a Golden Globe and is nominated for an Oscar. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nusper, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive. So subscribe at w-h-y-y-y-org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.

So let's talk a little bit about music. You studied harp and I think another instrument when you were young. Yeah, piano, clarinet. I was never very good. And I dabbled in the saxophone for a second too. But you didn't study singing but became known for your singing early in your career. You've been in several musicals

including cabaret and sound times a little night music, two shows with like fantastic scores. So how did singing become your thing? Well, I grew up around a lot of music. My mom is a harpist and a singer and my dad has always been passionate about music. So it was always something in our house and always something that was encouraged.

And I think early on I have very strong memories of seeing and hearing my mom sing in church and this quite intense mercurial conversation that would happen between her, the story and the people that would listen to her. And at the end of it, something had been like cracked between them and these strangers would come up with tears in their eyes. And I guess I saw the power of storytelling through my mom singing at a very young age. And that was definitely something that made me think, I want to do that. You played the male lead Tony in West Side Story in a school production in your convent school, right?

Yeah. What was it like for you to play a male role in high school? I mean, I loved doing those productions in school and it was an all-girls convent school and it was brilliant I mean the thing that deciphered the girls from the men or the women from the men in the productions was the men wore French plats

and big huge red French plats you know like to keep their hair down and big huge red boxy suits with a tie but it was brilliant and I remember doing when I did those shows like even then it meant so much

you know I would I would want to go to the core of it and if I felt I didn't do it justice I would kick myself and the teachers were like you're fine don't worry but it was kind of it was the thing I looked forward to the most

and it was great fun You got your start as somebody who was known outside of high school. When you were a contestant on the British TV singing competition, I'd do anything. And the goal was that theater producer Cameron McIntosh and songwriter Andrew Lloyd Weber were going to stage a production of the musical Oliver. And the winner of the contest was going to be the female lead, Nancy. And so I want to play the first song that you did on the competition. And this is a cover of the Eikentina Turner recording River Deep Mountain High. Okay.

Here we go. Terry. When I was a little girl. So I heard you laughing throughout all of that. What were you experiencing as you heard that? Oh, I haven't heard that for a long time. so it's definitely a trip down memory lane. You know, I look back at that time and, I mean, firstly,

I thought it would take a hundred years to peek behind the curtain and be part of an industry that I was so desperate to be part of. You know, I loved it. That's what I wanted to do. And all of a sudden, at 17, I was there. And I was standing in front of Cameron McIntosh and Andrew Lloyd-Weber and I was getting to perform and sing. And I was so raw and ignorant and innocent,

but full of passion. And there was a lot of like joy in it. But also I think about that young woman and I think, God, you're so brave. And just that compulsion and passion to be part of theater was so huge in me back then. And I don't know if I'd be as courageous now to go and do something like that. But when I hear that, I'm like, go grow.

That's what I think. One of the people on the panel of judges who were also coaches thought you were very raw, like you said, and wasn't confident that you would necessarily get any better. How did you take that criticism? Andrew Lord Weber and McIntosh liked you. Yeah. Well, there was parts of the criticism which, you know, I think was true. I was raw.

I hadn't trained. I had a lot to learn and to grow in. You know, I was only 17. But still criticism can be crushing. But I think there was parts of their criticism which, I thought, I think was destructive and unfair when it became about like my awkwardness or, you know, they would say I was masculine and send me to kind of a femininity school. And I actually kind of... They sent me to like go to Chicago to put heels on a leotard and learn how to walk in high heels, which was pretty humiliating, to be honest.

And I'm sad about that because I think, you know, I was discovering myself as a young woman in the world and it wasn't fully formed. And I've always felt I'm not, I don't think any woman is. We're not just like the same. I was different, you know. I was wild. I had a lot of feeling inside me. I could hardly keep my hands beside myself. You know, I had a lot of expression in me.

And I think to kind of criticize a body of a young woman at that time and to make her feel conscious of that was a lazy and I think boring. And as I've grown up, I think, you know, I think women are not, they were not just to be accepted into the world in one shape. I want all the shapes. I want all the stories. I want all the feelings. I want autonomy of ourselves to be as vibrant and full as possibly can. So, yeah, that was hard that bit. So your coach was Andrew Lloyd Weber on the show.

What did you learn from him? And was it helpful? I mean, he's been a very quiet. but extraordinary support throughout, you know. And I think him and Cameron McIntosh and Barry Humphreys really recognised a raw flame that was to be nurtured. And Cameron McIntosh actually was the person who really introduced me to Shakespeare. After I finished I Do Anything, he called me and he very generously offered to pay for me to go and do a four-week Shakespeare course at Rada,

which is kind of... That's the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. Yeah, in London. And I'd studied Shakespeare at school, but I was kind of intimidated by it. And I guess that gesture changed my life because when I went and did that course, it was the first time I recognised myself as an actress

and recognise that I could do what I felt I needed music for in just a word because Shakespeare's words are bottomless, you know, there's no end point to a word in a Shakespeare play. And I think up until that moment I thought that music was a vessel that could hold all my feelings until I'd met Shakespeare in that course. And it was significant. So both of them have been very, very, like, essential to me discovering myself as an actress

and what I want to say and what I want to be and what I want to put out into the world. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jessie Buckley, and she's nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in the film Hamnet, and she already won a Golden Globe for her performance in that film. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. There's one more song I want to play, and this is from your starring role in Cabaret in a West End production in England. And so you're playing the role that Liza Minnelli played in the movie.

And it's a kind of iconic role, and singing maybe this time, is a really iconic performance. So I want to play your version of it in which you seem to like rethink the song a little bit and you build like Liza builds but the end kind of like tones down and becomes more reflective in a way that I don't remember Liza doing it in the film.

So let's hear the ending of the song. Everybody loves a winner So nobody loved me That's what I long to be I'm hearing someone so much more in control of her voice than when you were a teenager and we're on the singing competition. What do you hear? Yeah, somebody who's grown

and I think by the time I'd come to Cabaret, I had gotten to know myself more and lived more and worked more and was in command of my instrument and storytelling better than when I was younger. Why wouldn't you be? Why wouldn't I?

Exactly. I'm only human. And actually, but even in that, you know, like Cabaret was really, it was such a trip. That character is a real trip, You get on that train at the beginning of the night and you do not get off it until the end. And what I hear in that song and what you're talking about in that ending, you know,

I hear somebody trying to find hope, trying to like be held. And every sentence starts with maybe, you know, maybe this time, maybe this time, maybe. You know, like maybe something's going to happen to me. And I think what I discovered in playing this part And especially in that song And in the end is like What if she doesn't fully believe it That hope's going to actually arrive

Like what if? What if it doesn't? What if she hasn't She's like holding on for hope As much as she can until that end point And just a tiny fraction of a thought That actually maybe it's not going to work out And I guess don't we all tread in that precipice in life?

Count me in. Just one step in front of the other. But like, God, I hope I don't fall between the cracks. Did acting bring out parts of your personality that you didn't know you had or maybe didn't know how to express or feelings you were too embarrassed to admit to or too inhibited to, you know, fully express? One thousand percent. I mean, it's essential to me in that way.

What did you learn about yourself from acting? I learn something about myself through the women that I play in every job that I do because they contain parts of me in an alternate state and space that may be, you know, if I was to, I'd have to go to therapy 10 hours a day, seven days a week, if I was trying to actually, you know, incubate the shadowy bits, as I call them.

But, you know, through these, the incredible women that I've been lucky enough to play, I get to explore that and experience that. And a lot of why I choose the roles that I do is to kind of meet those shadowy bits. Like Marika in women talking, for example, is she's tough she's a hard she's like an armadillo and she was the one

that I really itched me you know I remember when I got that script I was like 12 women talking in an attic how the hell what's that what is that

but she was you know the thing that kept itching away at me because I know that woman and she's not easy that's what I look for is like the crunchy bit,

the thing that's disobedient, that's too much, and whether that's, you know, even to have a protagonist as a mother, to bring the mother to the forefront and encompass all of what it is to be a mother, whether that's in Lost Daughter or Wild Rose or Hamnet, like, let's give the full landscape

of what it is to be a woman. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jesse Buckley, and she's nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in the film Hamnet, and she already won a Golden Globe for her performance in that film. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. When you are making The Bride, your forthcoming film, inspired by the Bride of Frankenstein, written and directed by Maggie Gyllenhaal, you were pregnant and had to hide your pregnancy on screen. So how did you do it? Well, I wasn't pregnant for the main shooting sequence, but when we came back to do a reshoot for something, I was eight months pregnant, so they just had to do it from the boobs up, Terry.

It's like just the face. The face was my only tool to work from. But, I mean, I really loved working when I was pregnant. I thought it was pretty wild experience, especially because I was playing Mary Shelley and I was talking about monstrosity and here I was with two heartbeats inside me and I you know

becoming a mom and being pregnant did something I think for me my experience of it it's so real that it really like focuses you to be I'm allergic to fake or to disconnection.

Like I think since my daughter has come and I know what that connection is and the real feeling of being in a relationship with somebody kind of soft chat is, I can't stomach it anymore or talking around a thing and as an actress is very exciting

to like recognise that in yourself and really take ownership of yourself. I remember in filming that I was really close to giving birth, you know, and being like, I have this amount of energy. I will give you everything I got, but I know I there will be a time when I cannot give you anymore and that's going to be the end of the day. And actually that really focuses you on set, you know. And I think maybe when you're younger you're so in awe and reverence that you've been

invited into this world, which is part of where you are at that moment. but it's also good to put in some boundaries and focus your work. And I think I'm excited to go back and work on this other side of becoming a mother in so many ways because I've shed tenet layers of skin by loving more

and experiencing life in such a new way with my daughter. I'm also scared to work again because, you know, it's hard to be a mother and to work. That's like a constant tug because I love what I do

and I'm passionate and I want to continue to grow and learn and fill those spaces that are yet to be filled and also be a mother. And I think every mother can recognize that tug. Do you think if you took a break, a long one, do you have a fear that you'd be forgotten when you were ready to come back?

No, I don't feel afraid of that. You're just torn between what you should do? You know, like just become a full-time mother for a while or keep acting. I don't think I have to choose, you know. I really don't. I don't. I think... I'm glad to hear that. It just sounded to me like you thought you needed to. No, I just think it's an honest feeling. You know, I woke up this morning. I haven't seen my daughter in four days and it hurts. You know, I miss her. But I also... I'm inspired to be around people that make me dream and imagine and I need to do what I do. And I think I will be a better mother to...

continue to be passionate about something in my life and show my daughter that you don't have to lose any part of yourselves. Of course there is, of course it's hard, but it's also a beautiful thing to miss something. Like I've missed, I haven't filmed for nearly a year and I cannot wait. Like I'm hungry to create again. And my daughter will come with me, you know, she's seven months so at the moment she can travel with us and it's a beautiful life and she meets all these amazing people

and I have a feeling that she loves life and that's a great thing to see in a child and I hope that's something that I've imparted to her and her the short time that she's been on this earth is that life is beautiful and great and complex and alive and there's no part of you that needs to be less in your life.

You might have to work it out, but it's like it's worth it. Well, that's a nice note to end on. So congratulations again on your Oscar nomination and your Golden Globe win for Hamnet. And thank you so much for coming on our show. Thanks for having me. It's a privilege. Jesse Buckley is nominated for an Oscar

for her starring role on Hamnet. It's playing in select theaters and is available for streaming. Her next film, The Bride, opens Friday. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers,

Anne Reboldinato, Lauren Crenzel, Monique Nazareth, Teresa Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yucundi, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nestor. Roberta Shorak directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.