Fresh Air - Jon Bon Jovi

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

A few years ago, Bon Jovi stopped performing because of a vocal cord injury. The Hulu docuseries Thank You, Goodnight offers a career retrospective, plus a view of his surgery and return to the stage. He spoke with Terry Gross about his voice, writing "Livin' on a Prayer," and his forthcoming album, Forever.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. This year marks the 40th anniversary of the first album by the band Bon Jovi. Since then, the band has sold more than 130 million albums. After decades of singing anthemic songs like Living on a Prayer, You Give Love a Bad Name, and Wanted Dead or Alive, in sold-out stadiums around the world, my guest John Bon Jovi started having vocal problems that got worse over time. He tried every kind of therapy, and when none of them was effective enough to make a significant

difference, he did what he wanted to avoid. He had surgery. Although it didn't restore his voice to what it used to be, the surgery made it possible for him to sing again. Now, John Bon Jovi is the subject of a new documentary called Thank You, Good Night, The Bon Jovi Story. It alternates between a retrospective of his life and career and his reckoning with his vocal problems over the past few years. In celebration of the 40th anniversary, a new Bon Jovi album called Forever will be released in June. One song, Legendary, has already been released. We'll hear that a little later. This year, in conjunction with the Grammys, Bon Jovi was named the Music Cares Person of the Year. The tribute concert included a performance by his New Jersey friend, Bruce Springsteen, who Bon Jovi has known since he was a teenager.

Let's start with the best-known track from his first album, called Bon Jovi, which was released 40 years ago. The song is Runaway. All your life, all your best, when's your daddy gonna talk to you? But you were living in another world, trying to get a message through. No one heard a single word you said. They should have seen it in your eyes, what was going round your head Oh, she's a little runaway Daddy's girl has passed All those things he couldn't say Oh, she's a little runaway

That's Runaway from Bon Jovi's first album recorded 40 years ago. Jon Bon Jovi, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thank you. And congratulations on the anniversary and the documentary and the new album and the successful surgery. It's great to be here and it's great to talk to you again. I look forward to this interview. Oh, me too. Thank you. Let's go back 40 years ago when the song we just heard was released. What were you hoping for when you released your first album and what did you expect from your future? Boy, the future was bright, but nobody had any idea where it would lead us. I think that all

you could ever have prayed for was that somebody would give you an opportunity. And for me, that opportunity came when I went to see a DJ in 1983 and was fortunate enough that that new radio station did not have a receptionist. When I tapped on the window of the broadcast booth, the DJ made the sign of shush by putting his finger across his lips, and the program director came out. He said, what can I help you with? And I told him I'd love him to hear some music. They asked me to wait until after the shift. He came out, he heard that song run away, and he said, you know, that's a hit song. And I said, I know. And then they proceeded to tell me about a homegrown talent album that they wanted to support. And that song

could be on that record. Little did I know that that was going to lead to a major record deal that I still have today, some 40 years later. So 40 years ago, when you were starting your recording career, who did you think you would be in your 60s? Did you think you'd still be performing? Did you think you'd ever be in your 60s? Because when you're 20s, you don't think, you know, 60s seems like leaps and leaps away. You know, back in those days, I think as far ahead as I'd ever dreamt was the year 2000, because it was that magical science fiction number, where are we as a race going to be in 2000? At that time, I was meant to be 38 years old. I thought, am I going to still have a record deal?

Will I have a family? But I never dreamt about 2024 and a 40th anniversary. Who could have? Were you listening to any performers who are the age you are now? Sure, but they were my parents' favorites. Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Gene Autry. Sure, but they were my parents' favorites. Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Gene Autry. God, I love Gene Autry.

So did I. Somebody just asked what was the first records I recall, and it was Gene Autry. I mean, I love Sinatra, too. Yeah. So they weren't going to have been my choices, but they were my parents' choices. But if you had considered 40 years ago, where would rock and roll be for men and women who were 60 and on, there weren't anybody to refer to. And now you can look and the Rolling Stones are 80 plus and the E Street Band are 70 plus and U2 and Bon Jovi are 60 plus and very active. So you're kind of at a turning point in your career because of your voice issues.

How do you feel about your voice now? And you know what the public are going to see as of this interview and the docu series was shot one and two years ago. And I did have some major issues, things that weren't visible to me, because any singer knows about something called nodules, and they look like a little pimple on the vocal cord, and they can easily cut those off, and you recover from it. Mine was a little different, where one of my cords was actually atrophying, and they had to put in an implant, a cortex implant outside of the chords to rebuild them. And so the process has been slower than I'd hoped for, but the progress and the process are really doing very well. I'm currently able to sing.

For me now, the bar is, can I do two and a half hours a night, four nights a week? How did your vocal cord, how did one of the folds atrophy? I think of atrophy happening because you're not using something, whereas for you, if anything, you were overusing it. I think that is the bottom line, is that I was overusing it. Even though I'm trained and I have studied the craft for these 40 years, eventually, you know, the body gives out. It's not dissimilar than being an athlete. And I equate it to Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan or Tom Brady. And when they'd had those major setbacks, they wondered, would they come back? And it took a lot and it took medical professionals to figure out the right way to bring you back. Patience is not a virtue I am well known for.

So I lack in the patient's department. But every day I'm at it. You know, every day is some kind of therapy to try to get back to that two and a half hours a night. How did you find the surgeon, Dr. Robert Sadaloff, who you finally had the surgery with? Because I know you were so afraid of having surgery, understandably. You know, there are doctors out there that botch these things. Or there are doctors that claim that they can fix everything. And those are the ones I ran away from. A friend of mine who was born and raised in Philadelphia had sought out Dr. Robert Sadaloff.

And he had written a bunch of books on the topic. And when I met him and I explained to him that I had done everything I could holistically, I had met with other doctors and sought out their advice. And then he said to me, you know, I am a singer as well. And I thought, oh, isn't that nice? He says, but I became a doctor because I couldn't really find the doctor that understood the intricacies that a singer feels and can express to somebody that's in this field. Anyhow, he promised me nothing. And I loved that about him. And when I had exhausted every possibility, he said, now we're ready to talk about this surgery.

And he says, if you work hard, I will make you better than you are currently. But it's going to take a lot of hard work. And I loved the doctor and I loved the process. Well, I didn't love the process, but I love the way the process is going. You know, it's slower than I'd hoped for, but my chords are looking very nice in photographs. What's the work that you have to do? It began very slowly with just speech therapies. And then it's vocal therapy that starts as any singer would understand, vocal warm-ups. But but eventually it's gotten back into retraining the chords because of the compensation that I had to do. When you compensate for as long as I had to

as a result of this chord deteriorating, and I couldn't understand how or why, I've now had to untangle that mess. And that's sort of the process I'm in now. It's like if you're limping and you favor one leg. Correct. Exactly that. Yeah. What was the conversation you had in your own head about whether to retire from music or keep at it and try to keep finding solutions?

I jokingly have said I would never become the fat Elvis. And I don't mean that with any disrespect, but I love what I do and the audience deserve the best of me and I can only give the best. I'm not willing to be out there walking through the motions or changing the keys of the song. I'm just not

interested. Now, with that said, in truth, I can always write another record. I'm not worried about my ability to write another song. If I can't hit B's and C's, which at 62 years old is sort of fair, I could have walked away. I just haven't had to come to that conclusion because, as I said, the process and the progress are steady. Well, can't you just write songs that suit your voice now? This new record. Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. You know, but when you're 25, you're writing Living on a Prayer, and there's key changes that are high Cs. Yeah, right, yeah. So, speaking of the new album, we can play a track from it. This is called Legendary. From the forthcoming album, Forever, that new Bon Jovi album will be released in June.

Legendary is already available. Here it comes. Who are you and who am I To think that we could ever fly You don't pay to even try Work and pay Then just get by Sons of sons Bricks on bricks What's broken you don't try

To fix Down here there ain't no eyes And hips You don't pick up what you can't lift I raise my head To the sky Don't need more To tell me I'm alive. Got what I want because I got what I need.

Got a fistful of friends that'll stand up for me. Right where I am is where I want to be. Friday night comes around like a song Sweet Caroline and we all sing along Got my brown-eyed girl And she believes in me Legendary That's Legendary from Bon Jovi's forthcoming album, which will be released in June, but Legendary is already out. I want to play another track from the new album, and you've said it's okay to play this even though it's not released yet.

So I suppose this is a bit of a scoop. You have my permission. Thank you. I'm really grateful for that. I really like this song. The whole nation's heard it. Thank you. You have my permission. you know, anthemic and youthful anthems that people associate you with. So can you talk about writing this both from the perspective of the lyrics, but also from the perspective of the vocal range, since you've not fully recovered from the vocal problems you were having? Well, once upon a time, I wrote a song on an album called Crush.

There was a song called I Got the Girl, and it talks about a five-year-old princess. And it was my daughter. And my daughter, Stephanie, is now engaged to be married, and she is going on 31. And so, different perspective. When you grow up in public, as I have have hopefully your viewpoints change you have more to write about you grow up and you're telling your own story you're sharing it with the listener in this case my baby girl is all grown up and she's about to walk down the aisle so I'm telling this story and in the proper vocal range for the story. So I cried when we wrote it.

I cried when I sang it in the studio. I have yet to play it for my daughter. Oh, no, really? She has not heard this song. She may be the only one left in the planet that hasn't heard it because I've been talking about it a lot. She has not heard the song yet. Do you plan on singing this at your daughter's wedding?

The intentions are good. It's her choice. Whether or not Daddy can do it without crying is another thing. But, you know, I have three children who are all engaged to be married. And it's a crazy time in our house. Two of my sons and, of course, my daughter, who is our eldest. So it's a crazy time in our house. Two of my sons and, of course, my daughter, who is our eldest. So it's a crazy time in the house right now. Well, it'll give you three opportunities to sing it.

Yeah. All right, so let's hear it. This is Kiss the Bride from Bon Jovi's forthcoming album, which is called Forever. It will be released in June. As I walk her down the aisle Wish it were a thousand miles My beautiful baby So beautiful These tears falling from my eyes

Taking me by surprise My beautiful baby Beautiful bride It's time for me to step aside Lift your veil and let you fly Let the preacher say love's favorite line You may kiss the bride That was Kiss the Bride from Bon Jovi's forthcoming album You may kiss the bride.

That was Kiss the Bride from Bon Jovi's forthcoming album that will be released in June. The song is called Kiss the Bride, and the album is called Forever. I think that this will be sung at a lot of weddings in the future. I know this will be the song for the parents, kind of like sunrise, sunset. You know what I mean? The song for the parents to tear up. What kind of balance have you wanted to have in your life between wanting to like stay youthful and hold on to all the things you were able to do when you were in your 20s and started, you know, having a real career and, you know, being in the moment and in the body and mind of the person who you are now in your early 60s. I think that my goal always was to evolve and not to ever have pretended to be 25 when I was even 35.

You know, when I was 25, I accepted, acknowledged and participated in all the mannerisms of a 25 year old kid figuring it out. But if I had come and tried to be on fresh air at 62, pretending to be 25, I think this interview would have been over by now. I don't mean to judge that, but you're probably right. I have a feeling that's the case. But, you know, I think part of having a career, as I've been blessed enough to have, is that our audience grew with us now whether you got on or off the the path with us at any given time is completely understandable because uh you know life goes on and maybe you're not even listening to rock and roll music the way you once did but others have gotten on that ride you know at different junctures and so whether it was 2000 when It's My Life or 2005 when we were the first rock band to ever win a number one country song, you know, or what will happen now with this docuseries in 2024 is a new generation is going to hear this music for the first time.

It's just inevitable because it's a part of what the machine are going to do. And that's all well and good. But the new age and era in which we live allows for music to be discovered in a new way. And therefore, it's not even in a time capsule. It's just in there forever. Music, you press a button and it's playing in your ears. You don't see the visuals. You don't associate it with anything. You just hear a song. And if the song is good, it's going to resonate with the next generation. The visuals. You mentioned in the documentary that you hated rock videos.

And I was kind of glad to hear that. What always bothered me is that it was somebody's interpretation of the song or not even. Just somebody's idea of like great surreal images. And it kind of was so distracting from what the song was saying. Yep. You know, it's hard enough to learn your craft and then to learn how to write a song. Then when they thrust upon you the opportunity

to make these videos and or album covers, I can't tell you that it came to me easily. And especially on those first couple records when you knew nothing about nothing when they force-fed you a director or an album artist you just said yes because at least i just said yes and it wasn't until the third album the fourth album and now my 18th album that you take control of these things is there something you particularly regret being pushed to do? Oh, the 80s. But my life, as I told you, is so blessed, Terry, that, you know, those baby pictures of me in those clothes are public.

And that's my penance. I'll accept it. Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jon Bon Jovi. There's a new four-part documentary about his life and career called Thank You, Good Night, The Bon Jovi Story. And Bon Jovi is celebrating its 40th anniversary of its first album, of the band's first album. And a new album will be released in June called Forever. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. I'm Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Baldonado,

here to offer a sneak peek of our latest Fresh Air Plus bonus episode. I think what had always been a barrier to my coming out was the sense that no one would cast me, for example, as Romeo if they knew that in my private life it was Mercutio I fancied rather than Juliet. That's Ian McKellen talking about his decision to come out of the closet in 1988. You can hear how that changed his career for the better by joining Fresh Air Plus Yourself at plus.npr.org. So it was your third album that got really popular, and it had your most famous anthems on it, and it totally changed your life and the life of everyone in the band.

One of the anthems on that album is You Give Love a Bad Name, which has a line, shot in the heart, and you're to blame, you give love a bad name. On your first album that was released 40 years ago, you have a song called Shot in the Heart. That's a completely different song, but it has that shot in the heart line. And I keep wondering, how did you decide to recycle the line? And my theory is that shot in the heart is such a good line that you thought not that many people know that song I have to put it in a song that really works so you're pretty much pretty accurate there shot through the heart yeah shot through the heart yes yes yeah yeah I think that's pretty accurate terry yeah to be honest um you know

the title you give love a bad name just sounded like a smash hit and so i i said that line having said it once before i guess it's proof that i came up with the line um but yeah yeah yeah i i'm guilty as charged um i wasn't as uh prolific as i but early on, that was a line in a song on a little-known album that we used again. So I'm going to play a little bit of both songs, just to compare them back to back. So we'll hear Shot in the Heart from Bon Jovi's first album 40 years ago, and then You Give Love a Bad Name from the third album. In the dark, through the heart It's all part of the game that we call love Oh, there's nowhere to run No one can save me, the damage is done Shots in the heart, and you're to blame

You give up, a bad name I play my part, and you play your game You give love a bad name And you give love a bad name Two songs by Bon Jovi that have the line, Shot in the heart. John, what did you learn about songwriting in between that first version of a song with the line, shot in the heart, and the second version, which was a huge hit?

Yes, it was. Well, like with anything else, one would hope that you get better with time and experience. It was the third album that everything changed. And like everything else, you started to figure it out you know you started to think about what other songs were on the charts what you did with an audience and why a song worked live or why it didn't work live and playing in a bar in New Jersey was one way to cut your teeth but getting out there and playing to audiences don't even speak your language you had to find other means means to win over the hearts and minds of the audiences. So now that when I hear somebody say, I learned how to speak English singing your songs, you better learn how

to do it better. And that's really what's come with it. You started performing in bars in Asbury Park, where you heard Springsteen in his really early days and Southside Johnny. Can you compare who you were when you were performing at bars in Asbury Park versus when you started performing in stadiums? Oh, boy. You know, Southside and Bruce and then, of course, all the members of the E Street Band and the Jukes were at least 12-ish years older. So they were not only role models, but they were friendly to the young kids. They were the influence and they were telling you about their influence so that was an integral thing too is they introduced me to not only their music but the music that they listened to which was then helpful for me to understand what the process was and why you wrote songs and how you wrote songs.

But that was, although it was a huge part of my upbringing, then I was also influenced by what was contemporary rock and roll, you know, Queen and Led Zeppelin and Bad Company and Elton John and all the things that were on the radio in the latter 70s. But those things just seemed bigger than bigger than life. They were just posters on your wall. Whereas Southside Johnny and Bruce Springsteen, although they were making albums and were my childhood heroes, were 25 miles south of my house. So on any given night in those bars, you're going to see one of those 17 men hanging around in the bar. And it was sort of like being that close to Santa Claus because, you know, something fictional that you could, you made real. You could go and touch them. You could talk to them.

You could watch them. Springsteen, when he performs, doesn't wear like costumes. You know, it's usually like, you know, jeans and a T-shirt. That is his costume. Oh, is that how you think of it? That's his logo? That's like saying Jimmy Buffett wearing shorts and flip-flops. That was Jimmy.

Right. You know, but anyhow, go ahead. Yeah, so when you were performing in bars, you probably just wore, you know, jeans and a t-shirt. T-shirts and a jean, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. So I'd like you to compare, can I use the word persona, when you were performing in bars, compare that to who you were on stage once you started performing in stadiums. And if you thought of yourself as having a persona on stage once you started doing stadium concerts? Well, having grown

up in public, you were going to do things and try things and see what kind of shoes fit. And blue jeans and t-shirts were what we were meant to be. But in honesty, in 1984, 85, 86, when you're being told by the quote-unquote record company and the managers and the agents and the and the headliners that you were supporting this will help you be more successful in honesty we were probably trying on shoes that didn't fit and we were lumped in with a certain group of bands that I never bought their records, and I wasn't necessarily fans of, but we were cutting our teeth on that international stage. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jon Bon Jovi.

There's a new four-part documentary called Thank You, Good Night, The Bon Jovi Story that's streaming on Hulu, and a new Bon Jovi album called Forever will be released in June. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. There's a story I want you to tell that you tell in the documentary series, and you're playing in Russia.

The Soviet Union at the time, but yes. Yeah, and no one there knows Bon Jovi. No. No one in the audience, but yes. Yeah, and no one there knows Bon Jovi. No. No one in the audience. So you felt like, oh, and you didn't want to be upstaged by the other band that they did know? I think you were opening for them? Well, here's the story. Yeah.

Our first manager had gotten himself in some trouble. And as a part of his plea, he had asked the courts if he were to put on a show in what was then the Soviet Union. And he took a bunch of bands over. Was this like as an ambassador from the United States or something? Well, if you want a drug dealer to be your ambassador. Yeah, I know, but... We went, and it was a bunch of the bands of the era, and we knew everybody. And we were at the height of the New Jersey record, which was the follow-up to Slippery When Wet. So we were going to close the show. And realizing once we got there that the Soviet Union did not have Tower Records.

So therefore, they didn't have Living on a Prayer and You Give Love a Bad Name or Runaway on the radio. And so you're playing and winning hearts the way you did when you were a completely unknown kid on the stage in New Jersey. And we followed a German band by the name of the Scorpions, who we had once opened for in 1984. And they were a relentless live band, phenomenal live band. And to tell you the honest to goodness truth, they won the hearts of that crowd that day. And then we came on and followed them.

And I started speaking English and telling the stories of the songs and performing. And we were falling flat. Okay, fine. We got our butts kicked. The next night, now that I had had a feel for what it was and all of the experience and all of the influence in my career, I said, I see the trick. I got it.

So I took a Russian soldier backstage, took his uniform from him, traded him some blue jeans and some Harley Davidson t-shirts, to be honest. And I got his uniform and I said to the band, start this first song, just keep playing the intro over and over again. I'm going to enter from the back of the entire stadium. And I was dressed as a Russian soldier. And in that documentary, you see the film where I throw the coat, I take off the gloves, I eventually take off the long coat and hat, jump up on the stage and perform the song. We won. Second night, Bon Jovi was playing the Soviet Union. 30 years later, I went back and I played

that same stadium, 2019. And I was telling this story to a member of the press, now the free press in Russia. And I began the story and he said, can I finish the story for you? And I said, wow, you know the story? He said, I was there. And he said, it became folklore here. That's, you know, how you won the hearts of the Russian kids. That's a great story. I love it. There were some musical movements that almost seemed like counter-movements to the costumes and the special effects of big stadium concerts. And I'm thinking of the post-punk bands,

the Riot Grrrls, Nirvana and Grunge. What was your reaction to that, and was there an impact on Bon Jovi, on the band? My reaction to it was that it was good. Not only was the grunge movement good, but much needed. What happens that I've witnessed and I've lived through this business long enough to see is when something becomes popular, record companies run off and sign 10 things that are like that popular band. So there were 10 other Nirvanas signed the same way there was 10 other Bon Jovies and Guns N' Roses signed it to the point where the great ones survive and the rest of them fall by the wayside after a record or two. So grunge comes along and whoops, the yuck bands of the big hair anthemic rock band. Much needed, well-deserved. And I just thought, we just keep on our path.

Things had changed for me, both turning 30, being married, having a kid, cutting off the long hair, seeing what was going on in the world, whether it was the wall coming down or the Rodney King beatings in Los Angeles, these were all starting to influence my writing, and I was becoming a different man. And we just stood the course, and Keep the Faith came out of that. It was the first year of self-management. It was after the success of Young Guns, which I'd just been nominated for an Oscar and won the Golden Globe,

and had another number one record. So I had a lot of confidence. And we, the band, had a vision about what the 90s could be. And it worked. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jon Bon Jovi. There's a new four-part documentary called Thank You, Good Night, the Bon Jovi story that's streaming on Hulu. A new Bon Jovi album called Forever will be released in June. Let's take a short break. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Hair. You mentioned cutting your hair. Was that a turning point for you, the decision to do that? Because you were so identified with the hair.

What amazed and amused me was that CNN wrote about it. You know, that was silly to me. I mean, there's more important things to be writing news stories about. But I've seen it time and again with Harry Styles or Justin Bieber or Justin Timberlake. You know, it's all, these things just go round and round. All I cared about and what mattered was writing the next song and making sure it wasn't a repetition of something that we had done five years prior. So now you start writing more socially conscious songs like Keep the Faith,

and I could still write a big ballad like Better Roses, and those songs carried that record. And we not only survived, but we thrived. Well, grunge was happening in a big way, but Keep the Faith was still many millions of albums. I'm going to accept this as a great music cue. So let's hear Keep the Faith. Mother, mother Tell your children That their time has just begun I have suffered

For my anger There are wars that can't be won Father, father Please believe me I am laying down my guns I am broken in lock and arrow Forgive me, forgive me when I'm done Everybody needs somebody to love

Mother, Father, please believe me Let's keep the faith from the band Bon Jovi, and Jon Bon Jovi is my guest. Let's talk a little bit about your political activism. You campaigned for Al Gore. You were at his house the night of the 2000 election, the contested election. What was that night like? That was one of the most dramatic elections in American history. This was the night he conceded. Oh, this was like after Bush v. Gore ended.

Oh, yeah, okay, I get it. This is him saying, no, no. No, no, no. Right, right, right. And there was a scheduled press corps Christmas party scheduled that he wanted to keep for the members of the press. And I was asked to be there while we were in fact all here for a concert,

a Christmas concert at the white house for the special olympics that the albums that were fundraising for the special olympics which i participated in several of so having campaigned so much for vice president gore i was invited up to the house and uh it wasn't a very lively party when he arrived that night. And I had suggested that all this incredible musical talent was in town. Perhaps if I called them, they'd come over. And next thing you know, it was Stevie Wonder and Tom Petty and all kinds. And we had a hell of a night playing.

And Vice President Gore and Mrs. Gore were up there banging on the bongos and letting it all out, you know. Literally banging on the bongos? Oh, hell yeah. Oh, yeah. I was up there playing and singing and, you know, and by that point having a beer because, you know, we had all just had to go through that night. So you think that lifted his spirits, that concert? I think that that helped us all get through the night.

You also do work involving the homeless and feeding people who don't have food. How did that become your issue? Well, as you in fact are in Philadelphia, I've had close roots there for a long, long time, dating back to the very beginning of my career. But in 2003, I was the co-owner of an arena football team in Philadelphia and it was called the Philadelphia soul and again that same kid had knocked on that DJ's window said how do I ingratiate myself when you have the Eagles Flyers Sixers Phillies and I thought we have to be more philanthropic than anyone and one thing led to another and at first we were playing Robin Hood but one day I was looking out of the window of the hotel and I saw a homeless man sleeping on a grate. And I called that same friend whoullion and Project Home were in Philadelphia.

For those who don't know Sister Mary, consider her to be the Michael Jordan of the homeless issue. I'll second that. Okay. She is the greatest. And my friend went down and he says, my name is Obie O'Brien and I work for John Bon Jovi. And she says, yeah, great. I'm Sister Mary Scullion and I work for God. A relationship was born. And when we met, I think she thought that maybe the soul could afford to rehab one row home. And I wasn't being a wise guy, but when I met her, I said, Sister Mary,

what would it cost to redo this block? And I knew that she was taken by that, but I said, it's not that I'm showing off. I'm asking this question because I think if we bring a block, we could bring a neighborhood. If we bring a neighborhood now, we could start influencing the city. So we hit it off and she's taught me everything I've known for these last 20 plus years. Then in 2008, when the economic downturn happened, it was my wife, Dorothea, who came up with the concept of the soul kitchens, which there's no prices on our menu it's farm to table food no institutional kind of government funded food pantry or food bank stuff we um soup kitchens it's not what we do we created an

empowerment kind of a restaurant where if you or I go, you can see change happen by leaving a suggested donation. But if you can't, you volunteer. And that's what helps us make ends meet. We now have four of these restaurants and we're, you know, we created something that really just didn't exist. And we've been feeding those people who we've housed for 12 or 13 of these 20 plus years. And I'm very proud of what Darthia created. And we, like we said, we subsequently have four of them. I'd like to end with some music, and I'd like you to choose a song of yours that you think kind of describes where you are now, like that really relates to how you're feeling about life or yourself or the world now. I know that there are quite a few in my catalog that would be fitting. There's a song called

These Days off of a 1995 album called These Days. And I think that might sort of say where I'm at today, just today. These days, the stars seem out of reach. And these days, there ain't a ladder on the streets. And it goes on to tell a story about, you know, but it's they're still up there. It's just going to take a little work to get up and touch them again. John, it's been really great to talk with you. Thank you so much. And just congratulations on all that you've done. I appreciate that very much. And I really was looking forward to today. And it's great to speak with you again. And to thank all the NPR listeners and supporters for taking the time out of their day. James Dean You've seen all the Disciples And all the wannabes

No one wants to be Themselves these days Still there's nothing To hold on to But these days These days These days The stars ain't out of reach These days

There ain't a lot of numbers please Oh no, no These days are fast Nothing lasts In this graceless age There ain't nobody left but us these days The new documentary series about Bon Jovi called Thank You, Good Night is streaming on Hulu. The band's new album, Forever, will be released in June.

Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be best-selling fantasy writer Leigh Bardugo. She's best known for her YA series Shadow and Bone. Her new adult novel, The Familiar, set in 16th century Spain, is about a young woman who can make miracles happen, but she has to hide her identity as a converted Jew from the Inquisition. Bardugo's ancestors were exiled from Spain in 1492. I hope you'll join us. I want to congratulate our co-host Tanya Mosley for winning a Webby Award in the category Best Limited Series Documentary Podcast. It's for season five of her podcast, Truth Be Told. That season was about the use of psychedelics in a therapeutic setting to heal racial trauma.

It's a great series. She also won a Webby for the previous season of Truth Be Told. It wouldn't surprise me if the current season of Truth Be Told wins a Webby next year. Congratulations, Tanya. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salet, Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper.

Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross. This message comes from Grammarly. Back-and-forth communication at work is costly. That's why over 70,000 teams and 30 million people use Grammarly's AI to make their points clear the first time. Better writing, better results. Learn more at grammarly.com slash enterprise.