Fresh Air - Julianne Nicholson Likes Being A Character Actor

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

Julianne Nicholson says when strangers recognize her on the street, they're never quite sure how they know her: "They might think I sold them kittens, or I work in the ice cream shop." She stars in the new film Janet Planet. She earned an Emmy for her role in HBO's Mare of Easttown as Mare's (Kate Winslet) best friend. Also, Maureen Corrigan reviews the novel Practice, by Rosalind Brown.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. This is Fresh Air. I'm Dave Davies. Our guest today, Julianne Nicholson, is one of those actors who's well known to movie buffs and people in the entertainment world. If her name doesn't ring a bell with you, you'd surely recognize her face from memorable roles she's had in dozens of films and television series. She's perhaps best known for the HBO limited series Mayor of Easttown, where she played the best friend of the small-town detective Mayor, played by Kate Winslet.

Nicholson's role becomes central in the climax of the series, and her performance earned a Primetime Emmy Award. She's appeared in the films August, Osage County, I, Tonya, Black Mass, Dream Scenario, and Weird, the Al Yankovic story, among others. And in the TV series Ally McBeal, Law and Order, Masters of Sex, Boardwalk Empire, The Oic Story, among others. And in the TV series, Ally McBeal, Law and Order, Masters of Sex, Boardwalk Empire, The Outsider, and others. Nicholson is now starring in Janet Planet, the first film written and directed by Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright Annie Baker. It's in theaters now and has earned widespread critical praise. Nicholson plays a single mom,

an acupuncturist living in rural Massachusetts. The story centers on her relationship with her 11-year-old daughter, played by Zoe Ziegler. Julianne Nicholson, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. It's so nice to be here. It's great to have you. You know, this film, Janet Planet, is about a mom and her daughter in this beautiful rural setting and about their relationship. And I read that when you were young, really young, I guess age seven or so, your parents moved into the countryside and lived for a good stretch building a house. And you lived without running water or electricity? Yes. So my parents split up and then my mother and my younger sister and I moved out to Western Massachusetts, to Montague, Massachusetts, to a little cabin in the woods with no electricity or running water.

We had a pump. We had kerosene lanterns and candles and wood stove with my stepfather. And that was definitely a new way of life and one that I expect was challenging at the time, but I actually only look back on with total fondness. And I feel like our movie really captures sort of the innocence, even though this story takes place in 1991. And this was more sort of late 70s, early 80s. it captures a similar feel, similar quality to being 11 years old at that time, before cell phones, before, you know. We had a little black and white TV that we were each allowed one hour a week, and you'd have to plug it into the car battery to watch it. That was the charge for our tiny little television.

And as the battery died, it would sort died, the picture would get smaller and smaller. And you'd just be like straining your eyes, just hoping you'd get the last five minutes of The Muppet Show or whatever it was that we were watching, Magnum P.I. Wow, a simpler life. I'll say. More modest expectations. Well, let's hear a clip. This is you as Janet in the film talking to your daughter Lacey, played by Zoe Ziegler. You're lying in bed.

She likes to have you sleep with her. She's very attached to you. And she has something to say. Let's listen. You know what's funny? What? Every moment of my life is hell. I don't like it when you say things like that.

But it is. You actually seem very happy to me a lot of the time. It's hell. I don't think it'll last, though. Well, that's Zoe Ziegler with our guest, Julianne Nicholson, in the new film, Janet Planet. This character says, Zoe, the kid, says some pretty enigmatic things. I mean, you know, saying so commonly, life is hell. But she prefaces it with, you know what's funny, and finishes it with, I don't think it will last.

You're a parent. I don't know. What did you make of that when you looked at the script, Janet's way of dealing with them? I just thought it was such a beautiful look at a child and parent relationship in a way that we don't often see, this sort of deep intimacy and knowing of each other while also both having your own completely separate worlds. And I feel like there's also a very particular thing between a single parent and a child and the dependency that they can have on one another.

Right. It can be more like a friendship than parenthood at times. Yeah, I think the lines get pretty blurry there, for better and worse, I would say. You've worked with child actors before. Do you have things that you do to try and build a relationship before you start shooting? I like to, if I can, just reach out to them before filming, reach out to their parent, whoever's going to be around, and just start a relationship before we get to set. I like to find out, you know, a little bit about who they are, what their interests are, what they like. And I often will buy a present to bring, either send beforehand or bring to the first day of set. Something small, but something that's

particular for them or something that I remember that I loved as a child or that my kids loved when they were little, just to sort of start a relationship. So when the cameras are rolling, I feel like you really feel that. Right. You're not coming in as strangers, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting that reading about the production, that Annie Baker, the writer-director, she is very particular, was very particular in casting this, including the selection of you, Julian Nicholson, as the lead. And I read that one of the things that impressed her was this film called Monos. Am I saying it correctly? Which I actually saw. It's a film in which you play a woman who is held hostage by some insurgent gorillas in a South American country.

Boy, you go through some pretty harrowing physical punishment. I know. You live, what, like without running water for weeks while you were shooting it on location? Well, actually, we filmed in the mountains in Colombia, in Chingaza National Park. And then we were in the jungle for three weeks. And they actually set up showers. I don't even know how that happened because it was very rustic. We had to take, you know, to get there, I took two planes, to a car, to walk downhill, to a donkey, and then to a raft.

So we were in the middle of nowhere. But they did somehow manage to set up tents for all of us, a place that we ate, and three showers that we would all share. But it was, I mean, beyond rustic. It was incredible. It was one of my most favorite experiences. Very much no room service. No, I got the luxury accommodations because I got my tent by myself. The peak of luxury was solo tenting.

Do you know what about that made Annie Baker think you'd be right for this? I think that she probably saw that I'm willing to put myself out there and I'm willing to, you know, not dye my hair for three months. And it's not about being pretty. It's about telling the story. And I don't know, maybe that's part of it, risk taking. Yeah, it worked. It worked. It worked, hallelujah, yes. I should also report that she said that you have an intelligent, complicated, beautiful face that you'd want to look at for an hour and a half.

So there's that, too. That's nice. That's nice. I wanted to talk about Mare of Easttown, the limited HBO series, which was a huge hit for HBO. And you played the best friend of Mare, the small-town detective, who was played by Kate Winslet. Now, this is set in a very distinct place, Delaware County, Pennsylvania, which is actually near where we are here in fresh air. It's a working-class community. The setting is a big part of the story, isn't it? I mean, tell us about getting familiar with it and kind of what that added to things.

I mean, you actually shot it on location there, right? We did. We shot on location outside of Philadelphia, as you say. And it was very helpful to go there beforehand and get a feel for the place. And I felt like it's not the same, but growing up outside of Boston in Medford, Massachusetts, I felt like there was a similar feel. Not exactly, not quite as dark as Easttown, but it felt familiar to me, sort of Northeast, outside of a bigger city, working class. It felt like an easy world to slide into.

Yeah, with a very distinctive accent, which has actually been parodied on Saturday Night Live more than once, a very funny send-up of Mayor of Easttown, which does a lot with all of that material. Was it hard to learn the dialect? Murder-dur-dur, right? Yeah, murder, dirter. That was a Saturday Night Live take. That was Saturday Night Live, yes. I mentioned that to somebody, and they reminded me that that's what it was called, which made me laugh so much.

It was tricky for sure because the show had a wonderful dialect coach. Kate has a dialect person that she works with, and then there was also another person who helped the rest of us who was there every single day. And it's so helpful to have a dialect coach on set that can help tweak little sounds as you're filming. One thing that I thought was very interesting that she did was that she didn't just have a general accent, but she made a number of recordings of different people in the area. And how we did it was I chose one person whose sound I liked and I thought I could try to aim for. So it could be more specific. Like mine isn't a very strong accent. I think it can be jarring when you watch a show or a film about a place

and everyone has the same version of the accent because that's yeah and also like as you know from being there it doesn't sound the same in everyone's in everyone's mouth so it was challenging and nerve-wracking but fun well i want to play a scene from this this is a critical scene in the final episode. And I guess I should give a spoiler alert. We usually don't worry about spoilers in a series that ran two years ago. But if you have not seen Mare of Easttown and want to, you might want to move away from the radio or your podcast for a few minutes. The plot of the series centers on the murder of a young woman whose body was found at a creek bed. And after a lot of twists and turns in the investigation, in the end,

your husband, John, we learn, had been having an affair with this young girl and has confessed to killing her in an encounter when she was upset and he was trying to end it. However, Mare, the detective, the Kate Winslet character, your best friend, actually learns that it is your son, Ryan, who I guess is about 12 years old. He had learned that his dad was having an affair with this young woman. He took a gun from a neighbor's shed and went to confront her to tell her to stay out of his family. They tussled over the gun and he fatally shot her. So it's your son who actually did this, we learn. And after he's been confronted and confesses to the police with Mare, with you at

his side, in this scene, you're in your car after he has been taken away for processing. You're understandably terribly distraught. And Mare, the detective, your friend, who's now responsible for sending your son to jail, gets into your car. Let's listen. Laura. Don't. Look at me, Laura. Don't touch me. Don't Look at me Laura Don't touch me Don't you touch me Why didn't you come to me?

Laura No Just one thing Why couldn't you just leave it alone? You have John Why couldn't you just leave it alone? It's Ryan It's Ryan

It's my. It's Ryan! It's my Ryan! My Ryan! It was an accident. He doesn't even know how to hold a gun. Why couldn't you just leave him alone. My whole family's gone now because of you. Get away from me.

I don't want to see you again. Get away from me. Get the f*** out of my car! That is our guest Julianne Nicholson with Kate Winslet in Mare of Easttown. Such a powerful moment. Boy, it really hit me watching this again. Is it hard for you to listen to? Yes. I just had to remove my headphones.

Yeah. It is. Yeah. No, actually, it brought tears to my eyes when I listened to that. And having heard this, having seen the series two years ago, coming back to it, I wonder if you can say anything about summoning that kind of emotion in that scene. Did you think of your own son, what losing him might be like? I don't remember exactly what I was thinking about before that particular moment, but I do tend to personalize scenes as much as I can.

And, you know, using imagination and the words on the page and obviously an incredible scene partner like Kate. I think it was, you know, probably something like picturing my son in circumstances like that and what that might feel like. You know, I've heard actors say that it means a lot to have other actors with you that you know and trust, but particularly if you're doing a difficult scene. And in this case, of course, it's Kate Winslet, your personal friend. But this is also a scene in which you are expressing such rage at her. Was working with a friend more complicated in that case? No, it wasn't more complicated at all. I've been a fan of Kate's forever, from Eternal Sunshine to, I mean, everything I've ever seen her in. And to have that history, it just allows you to go a bit deeper. And I just trust her.

And looking at her, she's just so clear eyed and with you that it allows for me and it just allowed things to open up even more. Right, right. You asked Mare in that scene, why couldn't you just leave it alone, you know, leave her son alone? And she doesn't answer. But I imagine what she would say is, look, this is my job. I took an oath. I have to play it straight. But the interesting thing is that in this series, we know that very recently Mare, that very detective, when she was in a battle for custody for her grandson with the son's mother who had long struggled with addiction.

That mayor had gone to a police evidence locker, stolen two bags of heroin, and planted them on this woman, committing a crime, violating her oath to protect someone in her family. But she wouldn't do it for you, her friend, Lori, which just added a whole other element when I thought about it. Were you aware of that at all? Or was she aware of it? God, now that you remind me, how dare you, Mayor? Laurie didn't know that. But of course, I think Laurie knows that she's no angel.

You know, I think that was part of her grief. Like, this is where you make your stand. This is where you do the right thing. I completely understand Laurie's feelings. If the husband was already in, if John was already in there taking the blame. Though there is the thought too we talked about, which is if Ryan was never punished for it or never had to own up to it, would that not ruin his life in a different way?

You know, the guilt around that. So maybe she did him a favor in the long run. One of the things that's great about the series is that it is rich and complex. You know, I saw online your acceptance speech for the Emmy in which you talked long enough where the band started trying to play you off. But you spent the whole time thanking other people. And especially Kate Winslet, who was in the audience, you said that in addition to being a great actress, she was so good at caring for the whole production. You said she led us every step of the way with such care and intelligence and love. That's the lead actress in the series. Yeah. What did she do that was so special there with everybody? She just comes with so much heart and so much just innate talent.

And she brings everyone with her. Some people are doing the thing for themselves. She wants everyone to shine. She wants the story to be the best it can be. It's not just about her glory. And she's just paying attention all the time to everything that's happening on set. I don't know how she does it. She just must have like feelers or sensors out all the time, like just tracking how much beverage is in that beer bottle, how many chips are on that table. Why is that clock not set for the right time for the scene? I mean, she's just a miracle. The show had great ratings. You won the primetime Emmy.

Did it change your career? Did the phone start ringing a lot more? You know what? It's so funny you should ask that, Dave, because I've been asked that before. And for the first year, I would have said no, it didn't change it much at all. But I'm doing a show now for Hulu with Dan Fogelman, the wonderful Dan Fogelman, who wrote the series This Is Us. And he reached out to me to do this incredible part, unlike any I've played before. And I'm sure a big part of that was Mare of Easttown. So I'm sure that yes, it has. But I do also feel like it's a body of work that I've been growing for over two decades. And then something like that on top of it just makes it a little easier to say yes. Yeah, makes sense.

Can I say something else about that, which is when I won the Emmy, it was, I mean, such a thrill, of course. And I wished that I thanked my husband more because he's been, I'm going to get upset. Emotional, I should say, not upset. He's been such an incredible supporter. Also, I've been away from home. By the way, tears come and go with me. It's not a big deal. So don't panic.

I just feel like the family is the one that makes the sacrifices. And I'm just so grateful. Well, my recollection is that you did thank him and your kids. I did, but not enough. Could never be enough, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you have that kind of a relationship.

That's a wonderful thing. Yeah. I feel so lucky to have that. I mean, that's my number one. And I've actually been really lucky to have a career that I've been able to work pretty consistently and do jobs that I'm proud of. But also, I feel like I'm mostly home. And that's been an amazing gift. I feel like it's actually just been this year where I suddenly have been away a bit more. I think you're catching me on the tail end of that, too. We should take a break here. Let me reintroduce you. We're speaking with actor Julianne Nicholson. She stars in the new film Janet Planet,

written and directed by Pulitzer Prize winning playwright Annie Baker. She'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Baldonado. If you're already a Fresh Air Plus supporter, you may have heard Terry talking about the first daily national broadcast of the show in 1987. It was still like making a national debut both to the audience and to program directors because we weren't on that many stations to start with. Dave Davies talking about his job driving a cab. This is a fascinating city of many diverse neighborhoods. It was fun to just tool around in a cab all day. Or archival interviews with people like Arthur Miller, Nina Simone, and Audrey Hepburn.

Timing you can't rehearse. It's an instinct. Especially comedy. I mean, that's what made Cary unique. That's why there haven't been a whole lot of Carrie Grant. Are you not a Fresh Air Plus supporter yet? You could be. Subscribe on plus.npr.org or on Apple Podcasts. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, This is Fresh Air. I'm Dave Davies. Guest is actor Julianne Nicholson, a veteran of dozens of films, including August Osage County, I, Tonya, Black Mass, and TV series, including Masters of Sex, Boardwalk Empire, and Mayor of Easttown, for which she won a primetime Emmy Award.

She's now starring in the new film Janet Planet, written and directed by award-winning playwright Annie Baker. I know that you were kind of fascinated by Marilyn Monroe as a teenager, right? Yes. Did that generate, is that what led to your interest in acting? I imagine it did. Yes. I had done a little bit of acting in elementary school and the drama club was just introduced at my high school. I think when I was maybe a freshman or sophomore, and I auditioned for the first play, and I didn't get a role. They said I could be the stage manager, and then so I sort of put it down for a decade. But definitely, I think my interest in Marilyn Monroe was part of that. And you would eventually play her mother in a film. I know. Many, many years later.

That felt like a full circle moment when I was able to do that, for sure. What was it, Blonde? Blonde by Andrew Dominick. And I was a huge fan of Andrew Dominick's. So it was very exciting to get to work with him. I had a wonderful time making that movie. As dark as it is, I had a great time doing it. Anyway, you moved to New York, I guess, after high school, right?

And did modeling for a while, which I have to say is not my image of you. You know, heavy makeup and pouty poses. Yes. Did you like it? No, which is why it didn't last very long. I wasn't very good at it either, and it made me feel insecure. It was a great way to get to New York City in 1990. And I had another roommate. So it

was fun to be young and in New York in 1990. So it was a great jumping off point, I would say. I gather you spent a lot of years waiting tables and studying acting, different classes, found a teacher who was terrific, and managed to find work in, you know, some film and some TV series in your 20s, including landing a spot on Ally McBeal, which younger listeners may not know. It was a huge hit at the time when network TV was kind of the only thing you saw on television. When was it clear to you, yeah, I can give up the restaurant jobs and make a career of this? Well, I worked in restaurants in New York City from when I was 18 to 28. And I was doing small parts or an episode of Law and Order or some other New York show for a few years. And then I went and did Storm of the Century, which was a Stephen King miniseries. So that felt like a kind of a big deal. I was in Toronto for a few months, but I did return to New York and go back to the restaurant.

My family, they would let me go. They were very supportive. They would let me go away and come back. They'd put me back on the schedule. And then when I did a film called The Love Letter for DreamWorks, this summer, I was 28. I didn't go back to the restaurant, which was a beautiful day. Yeah. It must have been hard managing the two. Can I have two weeks off so I can go that were all pursuing their own interests. And as I said, I had this great job at a restaurant where I knew everyone. They loved me. They wanted me to be happy. They cared about their employees. So they made it as easy as possible in terms of scheduling. But working in a restaurant is hard work. And I was happy to give it up. Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. You were on Law & Order Criminal Intent, establishing that you had made it as a New York actor, right? You played a prosecutor.

And then I saw on the list of your credits that you were on Boardwalk Empire. And I was thinking, gosh, I watched that. I don't remember Julianne Nicholson. But then when I looked at the clips, yeah, that was you as Esther Randolph, a federal prosecutor. But it was a place in time. You know, your hair was short. You were in period sets and clothes. I mean, I guess that helps you get into a role.

But it also kind of makes it hard for people to connect to you as the same person that they saw playing other roles maybe. Yes. But that's what's exciting. I mean, that's the most exciting thing for me is if someone doesn't recognize me. That's a thing to strive for, I feel like. If you can sort of play someone that different from the other characters you've played, that's the goal. Right. Disappearing into the role. Yeah.

Yeah. I loved doing that show. That was a blast. I felt like it was such a quality show. I loved working with Steve Buscemi, Michael Shannon, Callie McDonald, Tim Van Patten, who I'd worked with on an earlier show in New York, wonderful director. And yeah, I thought that was such an interesting character in a world full of men that she was such a badass in the 1920s. That's one of the things that I really liked about it, just picturing 1920s Atlantic City, Prohibition, these characters, kind of the corruption, and a lot of humanity, too. I mean, people are complicated. For sure. Well, you know, I noticed in a lot of the scenes in that show and in the movie that we're talking about, you know, Janet Planet,

how often you're reacting to what others are saying and in doing so conveying a lot of emotion. Is that something that came to you more with experience? Any method to that? I don't know. Well, as you now know, I'm like pretty much an open book. I have very little filter for better and worse with how I'm feeling. People joke, call me poker face, because it's very much the opposite. Um, so I think that, yeah, I think it's probably, I don't know, the work is to try to feel more and more relaxed and have less and less expectation of what might happen in a scene. So it's really just trying to show up and pay attention and let whatever comes up with that be there. Right. Which is why I guess having a partner in the scene who is just as invested in listening carefully makes it easier. It really makes a difference when you look across. And you know, you can feel it in life, too, when someone's listening to you, like really listening to you or not. It makes a difference. And it's very much the same when the cameras are rolling.

The other thing I wanted to ask you was how you feel about watching your own performances on film and television. I heard you actually had not seen Mare of Easttown. I did not watch it while it was airing. And then in the run up to the Emmys, I did watch it because I felt like I should know what everybody was talking about. I had to talk about the show. And so I thought it would be helpful. And I loved it. I thought the show was amazing. I thought everybody did such a great job. And it really cast a spell. Are you too critical of your own performance? I think yes, I feel like it never matches with what my memory of doing the scene is. And so I won't say, oh, I won't watch something, but I'm less and less keen on it.

You know, the other thing that occurred to me as I was looking back over your career, I don't see a lot of comedy. Is that something you have? Have you avoided it? No, I have not avoided it. I would love to do a comedy. I did a great comedy with my friends Wally Walidarski and Maya Forbes called Seeing Other People early on in my career, which was I loved that movie and making that movie. I did Ally McBeal, which I never laughed so hard than when I was on that show. And then what happens is if people start to see you do a certain thing then that's what they want you to continue to do so i've had made it a point of trying not to play i mean it's often dark yes but it's why i chose to do weird al i was looking for a comedy and that came up and i would love to do more lighter stuff as well your cast were cast as moms a lot. Is this the case? I mean, you were in Mare, you were in Janet Planet.

I guess, yes, I am, but it doesn't feel like that to me. It doesn't feel like traditional, like, I mean, I hate to even say this, just a mom. I feel like they've been moms and, or they've been something and a mom to me. It feels like they've been deeply rich characters who also happen to be mothers.

I don't feel like I've been pigeonholed in any way into just playing a mom. Moms can be everything, so I'm not mad at that. We'll need to take another break here. Let me reintroduce you. We're speaking with Julianne Nicholson. She stars in the new film Janet Planet, written and directed by award-winning playwright Annie Baker. We'll talk more after this break. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air, and we're speaking to actor Julianne Nicholson. She stars in the new film Janet Planet, written and directed by Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright Annie Baker. You know, it struck me that when I've done interviews with actors how often

actors that are really terrific and I think of as enormously successful tell me of times when they had hard patches, when the phone wasn't ringing and they couldn't get roles. Did you have stretches like that? Oh my God, yes. Like 15-year stretch. No, really? Well, I mean, not where I didn't work, but it takes a long time to feel, to trust that another job is going to come. It's a complicated thing. I had a period sort of in my early 40s where I thought I had got the whole thing wrong all along and that

things were starting to peter out. And right at the end of a sort of few months of feeling that way, or I think I hadn't worked in a year, I'd only done two episodes of shows in a year, I got a new Sam Shepard play called Heartless that I did in New York. And right after that, I did August, Osage County. And though there have still been times where it's felt a little shaky, I feel like maybe from August, things started to feel a little bit more secure in that way. It's interesting you mentioned August, Osage County, because I was going to bring that up. You were in an ensemble cast that was really an all-star cast. I mean, really powerful actors in Meryl Streep, Julia Roberts, Margot Martindale, others and others. And I thought

I would play a clip here. This is where you're in conversation with two of your sisters who were played by Julia Roberts and Juliette Lewis. It's funny that we have all the Julies, and they still took you on. I know. I thought those two had been cast, and I thought, I can't get that job. I had to wait a while and audition a few times to get that role, as you would expect. And I was like, they can't give it to me. They can't have another Julie.

That's just silly. So I was deeply, deeply happy when it came through. For you, we're reopening the J-bag. Exactly. Anyway, it's the story of this family, this dysfunctional family that lives in rural Oklahoma. Meryl Streep is the matriarch. She's the mom. And you're one of her three daughters.

And in this conversation, you're the one daughter who has stayed at home to take care of the family and keep it together. The other two, Julia Roberts and Juliette Lewis, have gone off to – they're doing their own things. One is in Denver. One is in Florida. And what's happened is that you have developed a romantic relationship with a guy who is your first cousin. He's played by Benedict Cumberbatch. And this is a conversation sitting on the porch. You've all gathered because actually your father has died, apparently taking his own life. And so it's one of those things where it's a freighted time.

And you're sitting on the porch and you're having a conversation. And I believe this begins with the Julia Roberts asking you about whether you're getting something going with this first cousin. Let's listen. Is there something going on between you and little Charles? I don't know that I'm comfortable talking about that because he is our first cousin, you know. Give me a break. You know you shouldn't consider children. I can't anyway. I had a hysterectomy last year. Why? Cervical cancer. I didn't know. Neither did I. I didn't tell anyone except Charles.

That's where it started between us. Why not? Inherit from mom the rest of my life. She doesn't need another excuse to treat me like some damaged thing. Well, you might have told us. You didn't tell us about you and Bill. It's different. Why?

Because it's you and Bill. You're the only one who knows. I'm the only one who knows. I'm the only one who knows. I'm the only one who knows. I'm the only one who knows. I'm the only one who knows. I'm the only one who knows. I'm the only one who knows. I'm the only one who thing. Well, you might have told us. You didn't tell us about you and Bill.

It's different. Why? Because it's you and not me? Because divorce is an embarrassing public admission of defeat. Cancer is f***ing cancer. You can't help that. We're your sisters. I don't feel that connection very keenly. Well, I feel very connected to the both of you.

We never see you. You're never around. You haven't been around. I still feel that connection. I can't perpetuate these myths of family or sisterhood anymore. We're just people. Some of us accidentally connected by genetics. A random selection of cells.

When did you get so cynical? Well, that's funny coming from you. Well, bitter, yes, but random selection of cells? Maybe my cynicism came with the realization that the responsibility of caring for our parents was mine alone. Oh, don't give me that. I participated. Until you had enough and got out. You and Karen both. I'm not criticizing.

Do what you want. You did. Karen did. And if you didn't, it's not my fault. That's right. So don't lay this sister thing on me, alright? When I leave here, I won't feel any more guilty than you two did. And that is our

guest, Julia Nicholson, as Ivy in the film August Osage County. They're playing with Julia Roberts and Juliette Lewis. Not a happy family, particularly. I know. Not a lot of laughs around here. I wish we could play the big climactic final scene where dishes crash and you really give it to each other, but there was simply too much profanity to bleep. It just wouldn't have worked at all.

I get it. You know, as you mentioned, when you got this role, you know, you were kind of on a hard stretch in your career. You weren't having a ton of work. And here you are with that cast, you know, Meryl Streep. You know, was it intimidating? Of course. Oh, my gosh. Yes.

I was so nervous and so excited. And I was made to feel very welcome from the first day. Everybody was wonderful to be with and to get to witness. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Did Meryl Streep kind of act as a coach at all? Yes. over the course of four days, five days, and we rehearsed beforehand at Meryl's house. We all lived in this little, there was a new community of houses being built, but no one had moved into them yet. So we were all there. It was the craziest block to live on with those being your neighbors. And we all went over to Meryl's one night, and it was sort of potluck, and we had dinner, and we rehearsed the scene a bunch. And then just all of them, Chris Cooper, Margot, Ewan, I just, just by osmosis, just by being in the room,

I felt like there was so much to take away. And I do remember that after one of the takes of my coverage, I was sitting next to Meryl in the scene. She leaned over and squeezed my knee under the table. And it was probably the most, the biggest moment of my acting life still to this day. That was a huge moment for me. It was an attagirl? Like it was something you'd known that she liked? Yes. Yes.

It was just a little support or it was a friendly one. It wasn't like knock it out, sis. Yeah. Knock it off. Yeah. She was, it was just a little support from her and it was just made my, made my day. Yeah. Probably didn't wash that knee for a week.

Exactly. Still haven't. Yes. You know, one of the things that made me want to have you on our show was I recently interviewed Nicholas Cage after he had done this movie Dream Scenario, which I went to see. And there you were as his wife. It was a big role. And you just, of course, did it terrifically. It made me think, gosh, we've got to look for an opportunity to get you on the show. And it occurs to me that so many people have seen you in supporting roles where they recognize you.

In fact, I was talking to my daughter, Sarah, when I was going to come on, and I mentioned your name, and she didn't recognize the name. And I said, do you remember like Mayor of Easttown's best friend? She said, oh, yeah. She's been in a million things. She's great. And, and, and I wonder, you know, if, um, if you're kind of at a level of recognition that feels comfortable with you, you know, you know, if you're a, if you're a huge star, um, you know, there's a price to be paid for that, you know, with your privacy. I mean, are you comfortable with where you are in this? I'm very comfortable with where I am, actually.

I feel like, actually, with Janet Planet, I feel like I've been talking more a bit recently than I normally do, which is great because I love supporting the movie. And I hope everyone will go see it in the theater. I think it's very beautiful. I'm proud of it. But I also feel like I've had the real luxury of privacy in my own life and being just a regular person in the world who also gets to do the job that she loves that happens to be in the public eye. And yeah, I feel like I've dodged a bullet. In fact, maybe there were times where I feel like and I still do sometimes wish I had access to lead roles with certain directors. But I also feel very happy with the work that I've been able to do. And, you know, I'm on a path. I'll keep going. Who knows what's ahead? Yeah.

I assume you are recognized on the street from time to time, right? From time to time. Yeah. You know what? Actually, most people think they know me from somewhere else. Most people think I sold them kittens or I worked in an ice cream shop. I mean, literally, you would not believe the places people

think they know me from. And I just usually say, like, nope, it wasn't me. And then keep moving. That's great. I know you. Yes.

Oh, gosh, gosh. Well, good luck with the new film. It's been fun to talk. Thanks so much for speaking with us. Thank you so much for having me.

I've really enjoyed it. Julianne Nicholson stars in the new film Janet Planet, written and directed by Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright Annie Baker. Coming up, Maureen Corrigan reviews a novel about the 24 hours an Oxford student spends struggling to write about Shakespeare's sonnets. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. Our book critic Maureen Corrigan was in the mood for something different this week. She found it unexpectedly in a novel about plunging deeply into Shakespeare's sonnets. Here's Maureen's review of Practice, a debut novel by Rosalind Brown. Trying to write. That telltale phrase usually indicates that there's more trying than writing going on. The main character of Rosalind Brown's debut novel, Practice, is an Oxford undergrad named Annabelle who is trying to write an essay on Shakespeare's sonnets. The essays do the following day,

and Brown's novel spans the tense 24 hours before that looming deadline. Annabelle holds herself to a rigid trying-to-write schedule. Rise at six, drink peppermint tea, water, and eventually the glory of coffee. At fixed times, she does yoga, meditates, and goes for a solitary walk. All throughout the day, Annabelle reads, scribbles notes, and catches her wandering mind entertaining sexual fantasies. She also dreads writing an essay that, as she puts it, will fling itself against the mystery of the sonnets only to dissolve like foam. Practice is an odd, absorbing little novel about an unusual subject, the act of reading and thinking deeply about literature. It works because it doesn't try to be a bigger story than it is, and because it's concise, just shy of 200 pages,

many of them only a brief paragraph long. It also works because Brown herself is such a vivid writer. Here, for instance, is Brown's third-person narrator peering into Annabelle's mind as she thinks about the challenge of saying something fresh about Shakespeare's sonnets. For basic sense, you can read each of Shakespeare's sonnets in a minute or two. For a little more chewiness and analysis, five or six minutes. The trouble is keeping them apart.

Shakespeare wrote them over many years, probably, and here she is, trying to rustle up a theory in two days and hook it convincingly on. Annabelle takes a sip of the hot, clear, brownish water, tasting grimly of good health. Last year, her tutor, Sarah, a medievalist, advised all her students to spend as many hours as they could simply sitting with the text. Don't keep your pen in your hand. Just pick it up when you really need, or else your pen will get ahead of your thoughts. So she's spending time with these poems, which are better company than people. They take your shape willingly, but still lightly, like a duvet does. That longish passage gives you an idea of how this novel meanders through Annabelle's day, spent mostly close reading in a room of one's own. Catch that literary illusion, please. Virginia Woolf, particularly her own day-in-the-life novel,

Mrs. Dalloway, is clearly Brown's model for how to capture fleeting insights, as well as random flotsam and jetsam generated by the brain at work. Because practice is set in the winter of 2009, Annabelle isn't tempted by the many distractions we now have within reach on our laptops. But even without the undeniable lure of dog videos, online shopping, and Wordle, Annabelle is led astray plenty by what Brown calls little wisps of resistance, the excessive heat of the radiator in her room, the jangle of a landline phone, and the boyfriend on the other end of it. For me, practice offers a refreshing midsummer's break from the sweeping, socially engaged fiction that understandably dominates our own anxious time. It's an unapologetically small, inward-looking, and yes, privileged story. In the novel's final pages, Annabelle at last writes her essay's first sentence,

which is excellent. Whether you think that sentence redeems all the self-denial and obsessive behavior that Annabelle poured into it will determine whether practice is the novel for you. Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed Practice by Rosalind Brown. On tomorrow's show, we talk with producers of Two Families, a new frontline documentary hosted by Bill Moyers. It follows two families from Milwaukee over a 34-year period as they navigate the economic winds of changing times,

struggling to stay out of poverty. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering help this week from Diana Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Sallet, Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Bricker, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Joel Wolfram.

Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm Dave Davies. This message comes from NPR sponsor Grammarly. What if everyone at work were an expert communicator? Inbox numbers would drop, customer satisfaction scores would rise, and everyone would be more productive. That's what happens when you give Grammarly to your entire team. Grammarly is a secure AI writing partner that understands your business and can transform it through better communication. Join 70,000 teams who trust Grammarly with their

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