Fresh Air - Leslie Uggams Looks Back On Her Decades In Show Business

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

Uggams performed in Beulah, Hallelujah Baby, Roots, Empire, American Fiction and the Deadpool films. She was the first Black woman to host a TV variety show. At 82, she's appearing in The Gilded Age. She spoke with Terry Gross about her long, winding career.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege, but a right. Learn more at rwjf.org. This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Leslie Uggams was first considered remarkable for starting her performing career when she was six. Now she's considered remarkable as one of the actors still active at the age of 82. She's in an episode of the new season of HBO's The Gilded Age. She's played blind Alan, the Deadpool films.

In the Oscar-winning 2023 film American Fiction, she played the mother whose dementia progresses through the film. In the series Empire, she was the mother of the main character, Lucius Lyon. Going back to the beginning, when she was six, she was featured in a 1950 episode of Bula, the ABC series starring Ethel Waters as a wise maid in the home of a white family. Uggums played Bula's niece. Soon after, Uggums started singing at the Apollo, where she met luminaries like Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald. She became a regular on the CBS music variety show Sing Along with Mitch. In 1967,

she starred on the Broadway civil rights musical Hallelujah Baby. She won a Tony and the show won one for Best Musical. Another achievement, she was the first black woman and the second black person after Nat Cole to host her own TV variety show. Leslie Uggums, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you. Good to be here. So what is it like for you now being remarkable for performing professionally at such a young age when you were six and now being remarkable because you're in so many things at the age of 82. What's weird about it for me is I never think about that. I just think, what's my next gig?

That's how I've always been. Then I realized when I run into so many different people and they go, oh, you're such an icon. And I go, I guess I am. I have been doing this a long time. But I always think in terms of, I'm working, baby. I'm happy. That's a good attitude. I have to say, in Deadpool, it is so surprising to hear you

use X-Blues and synonyms for cocaine. How do they think of you for that? What made them think Leslie Adams will be perfect for this? Well, the funniest thing about it is that I happened to be in Florida doing MAME. And my agent called me and said, I have an audition for you for a movie. So I got the script and I read it and I didn't understand what the heck was going on.

All I knew is that she kept falling a lot. Oh, you didn't know she was blind? Had no idea. When you do these superhero things, everything's encrypted because it's all so hush-hush that you don't know until the last minute yourself what the heck is going on. And so I had to figure it all out myself. Luckily, I figured it right because when I finished filming the first one, Ryan came

to me, he said, oh, I just love you, he said. And you had such energy when you did the audition. I thought to myself, I had no idea what I was doing. Did it feel good to use a lot of expletives? Well, you know, it's a character. It's not me. I'm not a toilet mouth kind of person. I haven't heard that expression in a long time, toilet mouth. Well, it's a character. It's not me. I'm not a toilet-mouth kind of person.

I haven't heard that expression in a long time, toilet-mouth. So, I mean, it's the character. And of course, she has a lot to cuss about because she can't say anything. You know, and she's kind of ticked off about the whole thing. But I think what really got me the part is my interview with the director, the first director, Tim Miller, who we sat down and we talked and everything. And he was asking me about my background. And in talking to him, I said a word and he looked at me and said, I love the way you say that word. And the next thing I know, I was doing a screen test and the next thing I know, I was in the movie. So you're about to be in The Gilded Age in episode seven. Yes.

And this is the HBO series about the culture clash between people with old money and people with new money and where prosperous black people fit in or don't fit in into that culture. Can you tell us something about your character? Or is that hush-hush? She is a busy body. She likes to stir the pot, which she does. Okay. Do you know what was happening in your family during the period the Gilded Age is

set, which is the late 1800s? Well, I know from my grandmother, you know, on my mother's side, her mother, there were ten children. They were all fathered by the plantation owner. The plantation owner built a house on his property for the ten children, which my grandmother was one of them. And they were highly educated. They looked like white people. And they all were doctors, dentists, teachers, principals.

And when my grandmother used to visit me and my mother and father, nobody in my neighborhood realized that I was walking with my grandmother because she looked like a white woman. So what I love about the new storyline is that there was the dark skin situation, and then there was the high yellow that they would call them when my mother was a kid situation. And they're addressing that in Gilded Age, which is wonderful because there is,

the storyline is right on the mark when it comes to who came from slaves, who was highly educated and had mixed blood. So it's a good season. It's a good season. So you must have really related when you played Kizzee in Roots, blood. So it's a good season. It's a good season. So you must have really related when you played Kizzy in Roots because when she is sold to a different plantation owner, played by Chuck Connors, he comes into her cabin frequently and rapes her and her son is his son. So did you already know about your family history when you played that role? Well, you know, it's very interesting.

They didn't talk about a lot. They talked about the stuff that they had... They being your family? The family, yeah. But they never talked about those situations of being raped or anything like that, because they were educated on the plantation. They had teachers and stuff to teach them there.

So they didn't have that. But I could relate to what was going on in that story very much, because you don't have any say so in anything. And first it'll be torn away from your family is quite something, you know. I find it hard today when I see what's going on here in our beautiful America and all of a sudden you've got people being torn away from the family. The pain of that, all I can say that when I played that part, it was very easy to play that scene because you thought, well, she's got Missy, that's her best friend, Missy,

who was breaking the rules and taught her how to read. And then because she taught her how to read, she helps the boyfriend on the plantation get this pass, and then he gets caught and then everything comes out. But she's gonna protect me. And I found out she not only was she not gonna protect me, she was ticked off because I did this. And so to punish me, she just said to her uncle, go ahead, let

her go. You know, she was a white girl who you thought of, you know, Kizzie thought of as her best friend. Yeah. But she was from the slave holder's family and wanted, when she returns to the plantation, she wants Kizzie to be her personal slave and how wonderful it'll be for, you know, for Kizzie to be her. Yeah, to be her personal slave and move away from her family to this other plantation

Yeah, so you've said that if you knew about that scene When you accepted the role you might not have taken it because playing that scene where you're taken away By the new plantation owner that it, yeah, that was so horrible. Talk about why it had such an impact on you that you wouldn't have even taken the role. Well, because, well, first of all, thank God I knew Sandy Duncan. We had been friends before because otherwise I never would have spoken to her again. Sandy Duncan played the white girl who wanted to have you as her personal slave. Yes, yes. And I remember when we finished the scene,

there was such a hush, I was still hysterical from it and everything. Yeah, because you had to be hysterical when they were taking your character away. And what happened was nobody wanted to talk to Sandy because they were just horrified and they kind of looked at her with different eyes. And she'll tell you she's sorry that she ever did that part because that scene was just horrifying. And she turned out.

Yeah, she's watching you and doesn't intervene at all. Yeah, she's looking out the window and just watching the whole thing. It was tough. Thank God I didn't have to shoot anymore for the rest of the day because I wouldn't have been able to. I came home and my husband looked at me and said, okay, you've had a rough day. I had a glass of wine and got in the bathtub and just tried to get my thoughts together. And then later on, I called my mother and said,

how could this happen? And, you know, had a conversation with her and she said, that's the way things were back in Grandma's day. And we talked about it, but it was rough. Okay, so you had a remarkable childhood. Let's start with your aunt, Eloise Uggum. She was a dancer at the Cotton Club, which was a- No, no, no, no.

My mother was a dancer at the Cotton Club. Your mother was a dancer at the Cotton Club? Yes, she didn't last long, because she said they didn't pay enough money and she wasn't Lena Horne. Ah, well, yes, and only Lena Horne was Lena Horne. Yes, and my aunt Aunt Eloise though, was a wonderful,

beautiful singer on Broadway. She did shows like St. Louis Woman with Pearl Bailey and she was in Poirgay and Bess. She traveled all over the world doing Poirgay and Bess. She was also in the USO. She did a lot of things, but she was the one that introduced me to a lot of classical music when I was a kid.

So, like, having a career as a performer was something that was within reach because you'd seen it in your own family? Kind of, sort of. My father was not thrilled about show business, even though his sister had been Broadway shows. He just thought, they're loose women. My aunt never married. He was like, okay, well,

she can sing. It wasn't really until I did Sing Along with Mitch that he went, oh, well, I guess she might be having a career in show business. Because up until then, his thing was he wanted me to go to college and get an education. Which you did. You went to Juilliard. Well, I went to Juilliard for a short period of time because then I got famous because of Sing Along with Mitch. And then the schedule got too crazy for me to do it full time.

Okay, so before we get to performing on television, let's get to the Apollo Theater. Yes. So you started singing there when you were nine. Nine years old, I was nine. Nine years old, okay, okay. So was this a talent competition or were you just like a featured performer?

No, what happened was the Schiffmans who ran the Apollo Theater had a radio show and it was a contest and they would have a celebrity introduce a young talent and there was a woman named Thelma Carpenter. She introduced me on the radio show, and it was a contest, and I kept winning every week. And it really got to the point where they could not get rid of me. So the Schiffmans decided to do an act, pay for an act for me, and for me to play the Apollo. So they paid for everything. I did a 20-minute act and made my debut at the Apollo Theater with the great Louis Armstrong. What a gift. Hello.

What did you pick up from Armstrong about singing? He had such a perfect sense of rhythm. Oh, I loved him. I watched every single performance. I had a little nook on the stage of the Apollo where I could watch everything. And I would watch him every single show. First of all, he was so loved. He had that kind of warmth that when you sat in the audience, you could feel it from him.

He had fabulous musicians when we played at the Apollo. I was always curious about what makes the magic happen between the artist and the audience. I figured out that you know that you have the audience when they're sitting in their seats, and all of a sudden they start moving forward without them real realizing that they are moving forward because they're so captured by what you're doing and into what you're doing and so I learned a lot from him. But you know I mentioned Armstrong's sense of rhythm. His sense of rhythm was always surprising, like he would hold notes you wouldn't expect.

Well, musicians, you know, they have that. It was so behind the beat, it was like the most relaxed rhythm, and it influenced everybody. Yeah, he had that. And then the next person I worked with was Ella Fitzgerald. And boy, was that another gift. And I watched her shows, every single show. And she'd just walk out there and open her mouth and you'd go crazy. And she was very quiet when we were backstage. In fact, I worked with her, it was during the summertime. And I used to play hopscotch in front of the stage door.

She'd take a chair and she'd sit out there with my mother and they'd watch me play hopscotch in front of the stage door. She'd take a chair and she'd sit out there with my mother and they'd watch me play hopscotch. And then the good human drop would come. Good human drop would come and she'd buy me ice cream because she thought I was too skinny. She was always trying to fatten me up. What was in your repertoire at the time when you were nine? I remember I opened with a song called When You're Smiling.

I think my second song was exactly like you. Pennies from Heaven, which I also did a soft shoe because I was a tap dancer as well. And then I had a segment where I did impressions very badly, but I got through it because I was nine and cute. Who did you do impressions of? Ted Williams, oh God, Johnny Ray. I forgot who was the third one. But Johnny Ray had a big hit, Crying in the Chapel.

Oh, I remember that. Yeah. So I did that and it was about a 20-minute show and I was adorable, but I could sing. I'm sure you were. In 2012, you released an album called Uptown Downtown, and it was songs that you did in a one-woman show. I think it was probably performed in Cabaret. It was done at some theaters, regional theaters.

Ah, okay. I started it at the Pasadena Playhouse. So I wanna play a song from that, and this is Them, Their Eyes, but these are songs that have personal meaning to you. So, tell us about the meaning of this song before we hear it. Yes. Well, basically, the Schiffmans kind of picked the material, and they loved the song Them, Their Eyes, and I took to it. And it was in that repertoire that I did and the first time I was at the Apollo. Well let's hear them their eyes recorded by my guest Leslie Uggams

in 2012. I was just minding my business Life was a beautiful song I didn't have a care, no worry Then you had to come along. I fell in love with you the first time I looked into them there eyes.

You've got a certain little cute way of flirting with them there eyes You make me feel happy You make me blue no stalling i'm falling falling in a great big way for you my heart is jumping you sure started something within their eyes that was leslie ugams recorded in 2012 from her album Uptown Downtown. If you're just joining us, my guest is singer and actor Leslie Uggums. She'll soon be in episode 7 of The Gilded Age if you want to see her latest thing. We'll be right back. I'm Terri Gross and this is Fresh Air. Working on the best danger lurking in them their eyes

I fell in love with you the first time I looked into them their eyes You've got a certain little quick way of flirting with them their eyes You make me feel so heavy, you make me feel so blue No stalling, I'm falling, falling in a great big way for you My heart is jumping You sure started something with them their eyes. You better watch them if you're wise. Oh, those big brown eyes, they sparkle, they bubble. They're gonna get you in a whole lot of trouble You're overworking off There's danger lurking in There, there

Eyes I'm Brittany Luce, and on this episode of generation of people who don't know how to be open and vulnerable. I'm Brittany Luce, and on this episode of It's Been A Minute, I want to show you how reality TV is getting a little too real by revealing what it's really like to date today. Listen to the It's Been A Minute podcast today. Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. podcast today. These days, there's so much news, it can be hard to keep up with what it all means for you, your family, and your community. The Consider This Podcast from NPR features our award-winning journalism. Six days a week,

we bring you a deep dive on a news story and provide the context and analysis that helps you make sense of the news. We get behind the headlines. We get to the truth. Listen to the Consider This podcast from NPR. Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nesbitt, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terri Gross, host of the show. this podcast from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive. So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. So I want to talk with you about Biola, which starred Ethel Waters as a very wise, like super competent maid and cook in the home of a white family. And the Hendersons.

Yes. Um, and I love Ethel Waters jazz recordings from the thirties and in Bula, that, you know, you can see episodes of Bula on the internet now. And, um, it's kind of fascinating as a piece of history. now and it's kind of fascinating as a piece of history and I have to say Ethel Waters carries herself with such dignity and I imagine she was that way in real life and I'm wondering what you learned from working with her and talking with her. She was extraordinary and she really took a liking extraordinary. And she really took a liking to my mother and I. And whenever she would do what they call a soiree, a private musical night, she would invite my mother and I. And we would always go. And I learned so much just watching her. But when I did her show, they wanted my hair to be in Peking

Nenny braids. And Ethel Waters said, you see how her hair's the way her mother has her hair done now? That's what she's wearing. She's not wearing any Peking Nenny braids, you know, because that was really slave kind of look. And she stood up right away for me in that particular episode. But she was wonderful and she thought I had talent. It sounds like your family was, you know, had performers and teachers and, you know, other professionals. Did anyone in your family, as far as you know, ever either work as a maid or employee a maid in their home? My mother kind of worked as a,

she wasn't a maid for every day, but there was a psychiatrist that lived not far from our neighborhood and she would go there. I remember she took me there a couple of times while she cleaned their apartment. But basically, my mother was a waitress, that's what she did. And then when I started doing stuff on TV and getting more famous, my father said, I want you to be with her all the time. So he made her quit her job, and my father took on a third job,

and he worked three jobs, so that my mother could stay home and watch over his little Leslie. When you had your variety show, the Leslie Uggum show, there was a recurring sketch that I think was called the- Sugar Hill.

The folks, yeah. And you grew up in the Sugarhill neighborhood of Harlem. The Sugarhill sketch was about when, was set in Sugarhill when it was no longer a representative of prosperity in Harlem. And like, you know, you have trouble paying the rent and suddenly you have a black landlord

which is really kind of baffling because you're so surprised that a landlord would be black. So when you were growing up in Sugar Hill, what was the neighborhood like? Well, I was on the the fringe of Sugar Hill because Sugar Hill really kind of stops at like 155th, 158th Street. I lived 164th Street, which is more Washington Heights. So where I lived, it was predominantly a black neighborhood, and then later on it became more Puerto Rican. So the area went through a lot of different changes. But it was a great neighborhood,

a lot of hardworking families lived in the neighborhood, nine to five people doing the jobs that they could do. Also a lot of stay-at-home moms as well. It was an interesting neighborhood because around the corner for me, Frankie Lyman, who became Frankie Lyman in the teenagers. So there was a lot of music, a lot of us would stay outside our buildings and just sing. We have one neighbor, she didn't appreciate it and she'd get a pot of water and pour out the window. To stop us from singing.

Did you sing with Frankie Lyman? Frankie Lyman? Listen, we used to hang out 165th Street and we'd all sing. There's a lot of music in my neighborhood, always a lot of music. Frankie Lyman was like this teenage star who had like a falsetto voice, a beautiful voice.

He influenced a lot of women singers and he had the big hit, Why fools why do fools fall in love? so You know, I'm wondering if like class was really confusing to you when you were young because on the one hand You know you you have relatives your aunt was you know in show business had a very successful career you know, in show business, had a very successful career. There were professionals in your family, you know, like doctors and teachers, as we've said. Was economic class confusing to you since you traveled to two,

through two different worlds? Well, it wasn't confusing. I just realized that, hmm, some people were living a better life. And this was my goal to live a better life. One of my best friends at school at PCS, we used to hang out all the time, and she lived on Central Park West in this building where the elevator opened up into her living room. And I was like, oh my gosh, I think I would like something like this. And I didn't see any cockroaches as well. And I'm like, this is the life. How

do I get to have this? Were you plagued by cockroaches? Oh, God, yes. Are you kidding? They were pets. It was their apartment. We only lived there. But I mean, so I didn't move out of my neighborhood until I was 18, and that was because of Sing Along with Mitch, and I got popular, and we could afford to move. And that changed my life as far as, oh, wow, this is great. I like living like this. But up to then, you know, we lived, walked up three flights of steps and there was no elevator and there was no air conditioning.

You opened the window when you wanted air. If you're lucky, you had screens. And so, yes, I was very aware of the different life I was living. But I'll have to tell you a funny story. In the school was also Mary Martin's daughter, Hela, Hela Holliday. And she and I became best friends. And she had this chaperone that was always with her. And we got to be very close. And so, I had been invited to her place. Her parents stayed at one of the hotels, very big hotels in New York at the time, because Mary Martin was always doing a musical on Broadway. And so I invited her up to my place.

And so they came up to my area, hung out with us. Of course, every kid in my neighborhood, all of a sudden, was out there on the sidewalk seeing this white girl with a chaperone hanging out with me. And she had the best time ever because there was a park right across the street from where I lived. So we hung out in the park and we had a wonderful day and I look back and I think see I was proud of where I was living no matter what it was home and she enjoyed that. Well let's take another break and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us my guest is singer and actor Leslie Uggums. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. So let's get to name that tune. And that was a quiz show in the 60s, where they'd play a few notes of a song and the competition was about being the first person to recognize the tune. Well, basically, you had a person that was on the show as a contestant, and then if they

went to a certain position in this quiz show, then the following week was going to be the big thing happening, moving towards the $25,000. So at home home they say, send in seven songs and you may be picked. Well, ironically, my seven songs were picked. I was sitting there watching the show because we used to watch it whenever it was on. I went, oh my goodness,

I got so excited about it that I ran out of the house. Because I was going, oh my gosh, I can't believe it. And so they contacted me and then I became partners with an Italian kosher butcher named Simon. And he answered the seven songs, that's how I became his partner. And from then on, we started going for the big money. But that's how I got on Name That Tune.

And they asked me, George DeWitt was the host, and he said, what do you like to do? And I said, I like to sing. And he said, what do you like to sing? And at the time, I loved singing, he's got the whole world in his hands. And then he said, so sing. And I sang a cappello, whole world in his hands.

And then we did the contest and Simon and I answered the songs, well, they got so much mail from that, that from then on, they'd have me sing every time before I did the contest. And Mitch Miller happened to be watching one night, cause I sang the Lord's Prayer. And Mitch tuned in because he had been hearing about this young girl. And he got in contact with us and said he wanted me to come down to the studio

and do some demonstration records. So he wanted to hear how it sounded on a record. And we went down and he liked what he heard and he signed me to Columbia Records. And he had not sold Sing Along with Mitch yet. He was still trying to sell it. That was such a strange show. I mean Mitch Miller. Follow the bouncing ball. Yeah, there were lyrics at the bottom of the screen and follow the bouncing ball so you could sing along with Mitch and

It was one of the most if I may say squarish shows But you know what's interesting about that is because Mitch Miller was not square. I mean he did many jazz albums He played you did Charlie Parker with strength. Yes. I mean, but he knew he had a sense of what was right for television. And it turned out to be exactly what he thought it was going to be. But it was a family show and people loved it. Have people come up to me, I used to watch it with my parents and stuff like that.

So he had that sense of what was right. had that sense of what was right. Stations in the South didn't want to carry the show because you were on it. Yes. You didn't want to carry a show with a black performer on it. Right. And I've heard you say that Lena Horne, when she was on TV, they'd sometimes like put her separately so that she could be cut out. No, that was in movies.

That was in movies? In movies. Her movies, when it played the South, they cut her section out. That's why if you notice in a lot of the musicals, she's isolated from anybody else so that they were able to cut that out. So when we went on the air and we started getting popular, the South refused to take the show because I was on it, which at the time Mitch kept for me, I had no idea. They just refused to do the show and the sponsors were trying to

get him to get rid of me or isolate me, anything because they wanted to sell their products. I believe we had, what was it? Rango beer or something. You know, we had those different sponsors. And Mitch kept saying, no, she's just part of the family. She's not going anywhere. Well, we became such a hit that the South decided,

oh, you know, maybe we will have the show on the air. And some of my best fan mail was from the South. Mm-hmm. That's good. Showed them. Showed them what they were missing. Let me ask you about Hallelujah Baby. It opened on Broadway in 1967 with music by Julie Stein and lyrics by Comden and Green, won a Tony for best musical. This is about the struggle for civil rights. Not many musicals on Broadway revolving around black characters in 1967. What impact did the show have on your life?

Well, I mean, in the theater world, I became a Broadway star. I wound up winning a Tony Award for it, so it changed my life as far as a theater was concerned. The music alone to this day is still relevant. I mean, you sing the song, it's like it was written yesterday. It was thrilling when I look back to be working with giants of the theater, because they were giants. But I never let it faze me.

I look back and I go, how did I not let it happen that it made me crazy? But I loved every minute of it. I loved Julie Stein. He'd play the song, I'd sit by him on the piano, and he'd teach me the songs, and then calm then in green. It was magic time.

Of course, Arthur, most people who know Arthur, Arthur was like a curmudgeon. He was never really happy about anything. He was like, he had Lena in his head for the role So years later, he said to me, you know You can sing Yeah, and Arthur Lawrence also wrote the book for a West Side Story. Yes and gypsy as you mentioned Yes, one of the great musicals gypsy. Yeah

So I'm gonna play if it's okay with you, my favorite song from Hallelujah Baby, and that's Talking to Yourself. Ah, yes. You sound beautiful on this, and I love the arrangement behind you. Yes. So let's hear it. We're going to hear your part. Don't stand here talking to yourself The one you love is standing there So don't delay it Say it Tell him how you miss his voice, his angry moods, his sudden smile. How you've been lonely all the while and tired of talking to yourself, talking to yourself

Is he lonely too, just acting proud the same as you Has he been wondering if you care? Don't let him doubt it Shout it It's time you spoke Don't let your chance go up in smoke Just take a plunge and go for broke Or wind up by yourself It's lonely talking to yourself.

I love that song. Me too. Me too. And that's Leslie Agams from the original cast recording of Hallelujah Baby. We'll be right back. This is fresh air So moving on in your career you had a variety show the Leslie Uggam show starting in 1969 and Your show replaced the Smothers Brothers show this Mothers Brothers show was canceled because of how controversial it was Pete Seeger saying an because of how controversial it was. Pete Seeger sang an anti-Vietnam War song on it, and there's a lot of counterculture comedy on it, and the network was not ready for that.

So your show comes along, and I think it's like your opening episode, your guest star is Sly and the Family Stone. So. Yes, I maneuvered that. That was you who maneuvered that? Oh yeah, oh yeah. CBS didn't know what hit them.

I can imagine. Why did you choose Sly? Because I was a big fan of Sly and the Family Stone. My husband and I had seen them in Vegas when I was playing at one of the hotels down there, and we went to a place after the show to go dancing, and there was Sly and the Family Stone, and we went, whoa, they're fabulous. And then shortly after that,

they had started having hit records. And so they were like at the top of my list because that was the music that was happening, and it was a black artist who were doing it and it was called the Leslie Uggams Show. So we're going to have some black people on the show besides just me. We became successful more than they thought it was going to be, but they had no plans for me to stay

having this show. But we had ten weeks of great great times, great great times. What year did you get married? 1965. Your husband is from Australia. Yes. He's white. In 65, I think, tell me if I'm right here, was interracial marriage in parts of the South still illegal then? Oh, yes. I have to tell you a funny story. Ha ha ha. When Martin Luther King died, we went down for the funeral and we were there with a family friend that had worked with my aunt many years ago at that time and she invited us to come down, fly down with her. And we did and then we checked into the hotel and Graham and I are in the room unpacking the things and also this is a loud knock on the door and we go, what the heck?

We open the door and she goes, what are you doing? What are you doing? We said, well, we're about to unpack. She said, you're not, you can't be in this room together. We're going, what? My husband said, that's my wife. We're not going anywhere. Unbeknownst to me, I didn't even realize that that was a law then. So I was not thinking about anything. This is my husband and this is how we are and that's it. I was shocked later on when I found out why she was in such a panic. But we didn't change anything. Were there other problems you ran into as an interracial couple back then.

Basically, people accepted my marriage because my husband wasn't American. Because he was Australian. Why did that make a difference? I figured that there's something about them, American white men, it's closer to feeling like he's a slave master, you know what I'm saying? So he's not a part of the American drama about race and slavery, so it's maybe a little better because he's an outsider. Yeah. Because you had so many breakthroughs in your career, I'm wondering what your reaction is now to the Trump administration trying to basically do away

with all DEI initiatives that they possibly can't. I'm not happy. I'm not happy. I'm not happy. I'm shocked, quite frankly. I've seen a lot of things in my lifetime, but I'm waiting for America to come back for us to get our senses together because it's just, how can I express it? Everybody can relate to the arts. It's the one moment where you can go see your favorite person, listen to your favorite person. It brings joy. In my head, I go to sleep with music in my head and I wake up with music in my head.

It's a universal language. You don't have to speak the language. You just have to hear the beautiful sounds that someone is making. And to not get these opportunities and try to get rid of diversity and think that there's something wrong with that, I just don't get it.

I don't get it. Leslie Uggums, it's just really been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's been a wonderful time being with you today. Leslie Uggums will be in the August 3rd episode of HBO's The Gilded Age. How did do me? Watch me smile.

Fare thee well me after a while. Cause I got a roll, and any place I hang my hat is home. Sweetened water, cherry wine. Thank you kindly. Suits me fine. Kansas City, Caroline. That's my honeycomb. Because any place I hang my hat is home. Tomorrow we'll talk about how tech is helping and exploiting us.

My guest will be novelist and tech reporter Wahini Vara. Her new memoir is based in part on her history of internet searches and on asking ChatGBT for feedback on each chapter of her book. She was evaluating its benefits and shortcomings. I hope you'll join us. Our cohost is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. That's how it ought to be I think of too When the spirit moves me across the river

Round the bend Howdy, stranger So long, friend There's a voice in the lonesome wind That keeps on whisperin' the roar, roar, roar. I'm goin' where a welcome man is, no matter where that is. Cause in any place I take my... Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege, but a right. Learn more at rwjf.org.