Fresh Air - Malala Yousafzai On Breaking Rules & Finding Her Way

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

After surviving the Taliban's 2012 attempted assassination, activist Malala Yousafzai didn't back down. She continued to advocate for girls' education across the globe. In 2014, Yousafzai became the youngest person to win a Nobel Prize, an honor that weighed on her when she went off to college. In Finding My Way, she writes about her life at Oxford and beyond. She spoke with Tonya Mosley about reliving childhood, PTSD, and her decision to get married.  Also, TV critic David Bianculli reviews the new Apple TV+ docuseries Mr. Scorsese. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

In the U.S., national security news can feel far away from daily life. Distant wars, murky conflicts, diplomacy behind closed doors on our new show, Sources and Methods. NPR reporters on the ground bring you stories of real people, helping you understand why distant events matter here at home. Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air. I'm Tanya Mosley. College is often a time to figure out who we are. to fall in love for the first time, to experiment, to fail, to question what we believe. But for Malala Yusuf Tsai, it was different.

She spent her college years experiencing all of these things under scrutiny and 24-hour security. When she was 15, Malala survived an assassination attempt by the Taliban, a gunshot to the head while riding home on a school bus. But long before that, she'd been standing up to them, demanding the right for girls to go to school in her hometown of Mingora and Pakistan Swat Valley. The Taliban had taken control, closing schools, banning women from public life, and brutally punishing anyone who resisted. After the shooting, Malala's life changed overnight. She became a symbol of resistance, praised, politicized, and picked apart.

While the world saw an unshakable young woman with a message, Malala was also a teenager, undergoing certain. to reconstruct what was destroyed by the Taliban, experiencing post-traumatic stress and navigating others' expectations of who she should be. Her new memoir, Finding My Way, reveals the person beyond the symbol. It's the story of a young Malala, learning the bounds of what it means to be a free woman, trying on jeans for the first time,

falling in love, failing exams, and confronting the trauma of a shooting that for a long time she had no memory of. of. Malala Yusuf Sai won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2014 for her efforts to combat the suppression of children and advocate for their education. She's written several books, including I Am Malala, and We Are Displaced, True Stories of Refugee Lives. The 2015 documentary, He Named Me Malala, Chronicles Her Family's Activism. Malala Yusuf Sai, welcome to fresh air. Thank you. this memoir in a way in many ways picks up where your first memoir left off just to like put ourselves in this place

I mean such a dichotomy here because and how remarkable this is because here you are entering college I mean you won the Nobel Prize at 17 so it's an unbelievable honor that I know you take great pride in but it also comes as you say with this tremendous responsibility to always live up to all that you had endured and what you've, what you've accomplished, what it represents, that that expectation also feel like a cage in the way? Like you, you want it to come into college almost as an anonymous person. Going to Oxford was my childhood dream and I wanted to be myself, make as many friends, but I think with these titles and recognitions, like Nobel Peace Prize, I thought I had to act differently. And because, you know, a lot of the people

who receive these titles are much older in their life. And they, you know, they're usually in their 50s, 60s. They have, you know, like a family life already established. I received the Nobel Peace Prize when I was in my chemistry class. So, you know, I was still, I was still a school student. So I see it as a big responsibility and I always have felt that now I need to live up to the expectation. You know, it was given for the work I had done, but it was also given for the work that that is ahead of us. So for me now, like I have to work for the rest of my life to prove that it was well deserved and for me that is just, you know, seeing this dream of girls education becoming a reality in every part of the world. But at the same time, I thought, okay, like,

but do you have to change as a person? Like, are you supposed to live a certain way? In college, though, this was the first time that I allowed myself to be more of myself, to really just test it. And to be honest, I didn't even know who I was. Am I funny? Am I not? What do I enjoy?

Like, I didn't know any of that. I have never seen boys my age. I have never, you know, been away from my parents or lived on my own. I can decide. I can go to a Diwali party. I can stay up late at 3 a.m. and, you know, like my parents would not know about this. And, you know, I could sign up for rowing or I could go to the aerobics 80s-themed party.

Any of that? We could do all of that. I was somehow feeling that I was reliving all the mistiers of my childhood because of the activism that I had to take from such a young age that I missed. Was there a particular moment when you realized, you're at college, when you realize, wait a minute, I could do whatever I want, you know? You know, I think about the roof climbing experience oftentimes because that was offered to me by a stranger at college who told me that there is this crazy thing that only cool college students do. And he offered it to me and I said, okay, I'll see you at midnight. I told my security like, I'm done for the day and you guys can go to sleep. And I just want to note for folks that you had 24-hour security because,

Because during this time period, in the years after you were shot, you received lots of threats against your life. That's why you had 24-hour security in addition in the same way that many heads of state have security in the United States. Yeah, I mean, it was awkward to have, like, guys following you. But at the same time, it just helped me have the opportunity to experience these things and not be worried about safety and security. So, yeah, but for that night, the roof climbing night, I told them, I think I'm going to. be safe on my own. I said, you guys can go to bed. So it's midnight. I follow the stranger. We go up to the fourth floor of the building and there's a small window in this room and he tells me that we need to sneak out through the window and then walk by this narrow path on the roof. One misstep

and you could fall and I am just nodding and I follow him and it was a really scary way, making it up to the rooftop. And on the rooftop, there's this bell tower, like the clock tower. And that moment just felt surreal. I just thought I had, like, conquered something. I was breathing in the fresh air. And I was looking down, just seeing some students still up at night or the light was still on in some rooms.

And I was thinking maybe they're still trying to finish their essay or just feeling a moment of victory. And I was so scared that I might be, like, kicked out of college for this. And this happening so soon, so I was terrified that being an advocate for education and then getting in trouble and being kicked out. What do you think it was about that that, like, really set your heart on this independent journey? Like, that it's almost like another near-death experience. I think for me it was just wanting to disobey rules. I thought I had to live up to expectations and be a certain way.

I could never get in trouble. I thought if this is something that puts me in the cool kids category or the rebellious kids category, I want to give it a try. Like I wanted these college years to be that experience that I otherwise would never come across. You really did experience a lot of things in college that many students do, including getting high. You, your spring year of college, first year at Oxford, you're with friends, you're hanging out as college kids do, and you're offered marijuana, specifically a bong. And you join in with your friends, and as the hours tick on, you have a reaction. You can't walk. Everything goes black. And this, you realize, is a very familiar place. Could I have you read what you wrote about it in the book? Look. Suddenly, I was 15 years old again, lying on my back under a white sheet, a tube running down my throat, eyes closed. For seven days, as doctors tended to my wounds, I was in a coma. From the outside, I looked to be in a deep sleep, but inside, my mind was awake, and it played a slideshow of recent events. My school bus, a man with a gun, blood everywhere, my body carried through. a crowded streets. Strangers hunched over me, yelling things I didn't understand, my father

rushing toward the stretcher to take my hand. As the images repeated in the same sequence over and over, I raged against them, trying to beat them away. This isn't true, I told myself. The real Malala is the one trapped in this nightmare, not the gul on the stretcher. Just wake up, and it will stop, wake up. I had tried to force my eyes open to see something other than this carousel of horrors. Inside, I screamed, outside. My lips stayed closed, motionless. I was awake and buried alive in the coffin of my body. It's hard to read. Yes. It's hard to read it. The Bong incident just turned out to be an experience, not that I had imagined, I had heard cool things about it. And of course, you know, like it's different for everybody. But I think in my case, there was this unaddressed

trauma. The memory, the visuals, everything, I think, had been there. My brain had tried to suppress them because, you know, it's just a moment of fear that you do not want to see again. And when the bong incident happened, my body froze and I was reliving the Taliban attack. I could see the gunman, I thought, this is happening all over again. I often, you know, say that I received my surgeries and I recovered so quickly from the Taliban attack. But just when this happened, I realized that maybe I actually had not fully recovered. there was this unaddressed part of my recovery, which was mental health, which was the trauma that we did not actually count in the treatment process. There are some dark moments that you experienced after that night.

You started to experience these intrusive thoughts that didn't stop, even after the high went away. You described being afraid of a kitchen knife, not that someone would hurt you with it, but that you might hurt yourself. And I just kept thinking as I was reading this, for someone the world has called the bravest girl on earth, what was it like to suddenly be frightened of your own hands, of your own self? It was frightening. And even now, like, when I think about it, it's just, it's a really frightening place to be in. You feel trapped. You do not see a way out. That's exactly what I was going through in those days. I was shaking.

I was shaking every minute. I could not look at harmful objects. I could not look at a knife. I could not watch news that said anything about murdering people or, you know, or somebody being killed or shot or wounded. I just felt so disappointed with myself that somebody who actually faced a Taliban gunman was somehow now scared of these small things. It was all like trivial stuff that it made no sense to me.

And I thought that I had lost my courage, that I was not brave enough, the titles I had received my whole life, and I thought I had to live up to them. I felt like an imposter. And then one of my friends suggested that I see a therapist. She said that a lot of students actually get therapy in college, that she herself is seeing a therapist, and I was a bit skeptical. I also thought a therapist would not understand what I'm going through. But she said, I should give it a try, yeah. Because your parents didn't believe in therapy.

I think your father said only a completely non-functioning person needs a therapist. So there was a lot that you needed to get over to actually. seek one. Yes, you know, growing up in Pakistan, we had not heard about therapy and mental health that now we are hearing where it's been accepted as a normal conversation. People are opening up about it. It, you know, and we don't even have that much support around mental health. Has it helped you? Therapy has definitely helped me. I remember the first session where I told my therapist, all my problems, past, present, potential future ones, and I said, okay, like, now give me some medication. How do we fix it? And she took a deep breath and she said, you know, this is not how

therapy works. And she told me that I had PTSD and anxiety. And this was like the first time that I actually heard the word PTSD. You know, people, I had come up, like, I had heard it in a few different contexts, but I thought, you know, okay, I faced a trauma, but I think I don't have PTSD. But seven years later, the PTSD appeared. And, you know, I learned something that when people talk about like a traumatic experience, it's not necessary that PTSD or the mental health issues appear immediately. They could appear seven years later, 10 years later, like you never know and that happened in my case let's talk about love you write that you'd convinced yourself you'd never date you'd never marry that you'd be like a quote like a nun but Muslim

once you got past yourself and you and your now husband asser fell madly in love which folks can read all about it in this book um but you were resistant to marriage for a long time. Why were you against marriage? I mean, growing up, I had seen many girls lose the opportunity to complete their education and, you know, just their dreams to become a doctor, engineer because they were married off. So, like, marriage, that was like the last thing I wanted to think about. I did not want to get married.

It was not a cool thing. If you wanted to have a future as a girl, you wanted to keep yourself away from marriage for as long as you could. Because even later in your life, it just meant like more compromises for women that, you know, you had to readjust to the husband's family and you just had to pray that the husband turns out

to be a nice, respectful person. I remember when I was thinking about marriage for myself, I put myself in my mom's shoes for the first time. I had never thought about anything from her perspective before. And I would always admire my dad and I wanted to follow his footsteps and all of that. But this was the first time I wondered what life would have been like for my mom when she decided to marry. How did she trust this guy? She had not even known and decided to like move into his house and be married off and restart a new life.

and I asked my mom actually what were what were her dreams when she was a kid and she said you know I just wanted to find a husband who would be respectful and I can go into the city and like have nice food and like drive around in a car and I realized that my mom didn't even have a dream for herself that marriage was a way for her to find some sort of freedom a little more freedom than she had right now so it was sort of a fact that fascinating time. When I saw Asser, I immediately fell in love with him. I knew that I wanted to be with him. And I knew that we had to be married because in our culture, for two people to be together, you have to be married. But then marriage just felt like a very heavy topic for me. I even went to read some books. Yes, you read a lot of books about feminism and marriage. Yes. I was like, please Virginia Woolf, help me. Bell Hooks, can you share a few words of wisdom? Well, you made this list of questions for him before you marry him. I mean, you asked him about fidelity, about whether he'd control what you wear, whether he'd take another wife. These were real considerations that you had to know. You were trying to extract guarantees, though.

And he tried to give them to you, but then he said something to you that was really kind of profound. He said, there are no magic words to take away all of your doubts. Why was that the right answer for you to kind of come to the realization that this was the step that you should take? Yeah, I mean, like, poor Aser, I was asking him every possible question about every horrible things that I had seen or heard about like, you know, a husband doesn't allow his wife to work. A husband has a problem that the wife earns more money. the husband is of this view that he can marry like more wives or things like that and he is you know okay with like telling the wife off or like that she has to live by his rules and all of that so I said who knows like I know he's a nice guy but who knows I think it's better to get a

verbal confirmation it's just the fear the fear that we all carry I knew that I was a very independent person I did not need a husband literally I did not need him but I want to wanted him and I wanted to make sure that this was like worth my time. But when he, you know, when he said that, that, you know, no answers would clear all my doubts, I think he was right. It was true because even when he was answering, I still had that little hesitation in my heart. But what I really loved was just the way he was answering those questions. He was very patient. He gave me time. I, you know, this marriage conversation started like a while ago, but he allowed me to go and do my research and talk to people and just like take my time off. My guest today is Malala Yusuf Tsai. We're talking about her new memoir, Finding My Way. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley and this is fresh air. Malala, I want to talk to you a bit about your parents. Many of us know your father's story. He's an educator who raised you to speak up. Your mother is quieter in the public narrative. And in this book, though, she's complex. She once saved a girl from forced marriage.

So she did have that within her, this understanding that whatever power she had, she also was, in a way, would you call her a silent activist, not as vocal and open as your father, but still believing. nonetheless? My mom is more an action-driven person. She, you know, doesn't care about, you know, like what we say, but she, for her, it's more about the actions we take. My mom has helped so many women and girls, you know, some stories like I saw myself. I remember this girl in Pakistan when we were living there who was raped and she became pregnant and my mom saved her life. My mom saved her life. She took her for an abortion. And at the time, I did not understand any of that. But like now when I reflect on it, I think, you know, my mom took such a brave step that it's, you know, if I ask her about her opinions on certain things, like she may not

give us, she, like she may not give an answer that truly reflects her actions. But I think, you know, she, for her it is about the safety and the protection of girls and how we can, how we can help them and protect them from the harm that they face. Both of them, both of your parents have been fiercely brave, but you also describe them as what will people think people. And I found that to be such an interesting way to describe it. I think a lot of people can connect to that. How do you hold both of those truths about your parents, being fierce. fiercely brave, but also very concerned with the opinions of others. My mom had a very different childhood than mine.

She never went to school. Her female friends never went to school. It was actually normal and expected for a girl not to be educated. The best that she dreamed for herself was to be married into a family where the husband is a bit kind and just lets her have her favorite food or just takes her to one of her like favorite places to visit. That's all that she hoped for and that it doesn't turn out to be a horrible, abusive kind of in-laws family or a husband. And when I think about it, I'm like, you know, my mom's journey was not easy. And she

always says that she's so lucky that she found my dad because he is, you know, already known globally for his advocacy, feminism, for standing up for women's rights, and more importantly for letting his daughter speak, I always tell people that there's nothing unique in my story of activism from Swat Valley. The only thing that's unique or different is that my father did not stop me. If more men are brave enough to allow the girls to do what they want or to not stop them, then we will hear different stories. We will hear more. women and girls get the opportunities that they deserve. I know both of them are very kind and caring parents, but they are not just thinking as parents, but I think they're also thinking

as representatives of the bigger community in Pakistan or relatives. And sometimes I feel like there are just too many voices that are speaking when they are speaking. And it affects everything, like even a decision like what I was packing for college. My mom was packing all the traditional Pakistani clothes for me. I just wanted to wear jeans and gray jumpers or sweaters, and I did not want to stand out at all. So I remember packing all of these, like, more normal college clothes. I remember going on Google and looking up Selena Gomez casual 2017. Because I was like, you know, what is like a cool outfit, a casual outfit that everybody's wearing? There's this moment in college when you wore jeans to rowing practice.

Yes. And a picture was taken of you wearing these jeans. Pakistani media went into an uproar. Your father wanted you to issue a clarification. And I'll just say there's something almost comical in the way that you write about that. What did he say to you? What did he want you to say? You know, both both my mom and dad were really upset when they saw the whole backlash in Pakistan.

I remember, like, on phone with both mom and my dad and just being so mad at them because I said, like, I am here at college, not for some pilgrimage or some, like, religious ceremony. This is, this is my college life. And I want to be like every other student. What am I even going to say in a clarification statement, like apologies, I'm not going to wear jeans tomorrow or, okay, let me defend jeans. and say, you know, there are like Muslim people who wear jeans. There's no fixed dress code for Muslims or, you know, like, it's, I was like, this is going to be a whole, another debate. Can women and girls just wear what they want? So my dad in the end agreed. My mom was still arguing with me, but then she sort of accepted it.

But I told them, I said, you know, you just never know. Jeans was like the last thing that I was worried about. To be honest, I was more worried about people. taking photos if I were seen, like with my friends at a party where we were maybe like dancing together. I thought like all of these things could be taken out of context. I was super aware of that. But when it happened with jeans, I was like, okay, you know what? I'm just going to, I'm just going to go for everything now because people could criticize anything. Like people could even criticize you for your existence. Where do you draw the line?

Let's take a short break, Malala. If you're just joining us, My guest is Malala Yusuf Zai. She's the youngest ever Nobel Peace Prize laureate and co-founder of Malala Fund, which advocates for girls' education worldwide. Her new memoir is Finding My Way. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is fresh air. The only panic attacks you still experience you wrote in the book are about Afghanistan.

Is that still true? Yes. And I remember when I was in South Africa, I was giving a speech at the Nelson Mandela lecture, and I wanted to support Afghan women's campaign of gender apartheid. So they're calling leaders to recognize what's happening in the country as a gender apartheid because it is actually systemic oppression. And they wanted to be considered as an international crime and the Taliban should be held accountable for it. So I gave my speech, I did my interviews, you know, we had conversation with South African female activists and allies and everything went really well. And then on the last night, like in the middle of my sleep, I just suddenly woke up and

I was shaking and sweating and I had like this terrible panic attack where I thought, you know, I could just, I could die. I was sort of screaming and, and yeah, it was terrifying. But this time my husband was with me and he was holding my hand and he helped me and supported me. So it was just a reminder that the fear is there and the fear is for what other Afghan women and girls are experiencing right now. It is terrifying. It is truly terrifying. And yet at the same time, when you're scrolling, on your phone, you make yourself stop to watch the videos of Afghan women being beaten

and assaulted. And so in many ways, you're choosing to re-traumatize yourself. Why is it important to be a witness? You know, I have lived through those experiences. I have seen them. And when we were going through the Taliban's brutal time in our hometown in Swarth Valley in the north of Pakistan. We wanted the world to see it because this is a reality that women are actually living. These are not things that, you know, sort of have happened in the past and they have stopped, no, like these terrible things are happening each and every day. Only a few stories actually make it to social media. So when we see something horrible happening to others, I think even just stopping for a moment and just seeing it, witnessing it so that they know that, you know,

that you saw and you were there with them and that you feel anger, you feel the frustration. So I think it's even when we share emotions it is a message of solidarity but I want Afghan women to know that they are not alone

I think they need more support and that's the work that I am supporting through Malala Fund. I'm supporting Afghan activists in the country, outside the country and I hope that things change for them. I want to ask you about the United States. Having observed our political landscape, maybe what has surprised you most about the state of women's rights here in the United States?

I think women's rights are a very fragile conversation in many parts of the world, including the United States. And in moments like these, I think women and girls and advocates of women's women's women. rights should take a moment to reflect on how, you know, how much progress we have actually achieved. I know people often ask that, you know, are we, are we shocked to see these setbacks? And I say, yes, I am shocked to see the setbacks everywhere. Most importantly in Afghanistan because, like, imagine girls' education being banned. Like, that's a reality girls in Afghanistan have to live under or women being banned from work. That's a reality. Women have to live under. So it's also a reminder that the activism that we are doing for women's rights

is more important than ever because of how fragile these accomplishments had been that they are taken away from us the next moment. So we need to do more to protect women's rights and like systematically protect them. So one of the campaigns that Afghan women are leading is to recognize what's happening in Afghanistan as a gender apartheid. And and to make gender apartheid a part of the crime against humanity treaty. And I know it sounds like too much, too many jargons. But what this basically means is that, you know, currently we do not have anything in the international law

that can recognize the level of systemic oppression that the Taliban imposed. Like the scale of it is just so big and so intense that they're like getting away with it. So if it becomes an international crime, then countries are obliged to react. Countries should not be normalizing relationships with them, and it just helps us have a better accountability system. The challenges, you know, I think about the United States' role in this.

I know the Trump administration cuts to international aid and the reinstatement of policies like this expanded global gag rule. It directly impacts women's access to education and health care worldwide, And I was wondering, given your work, have you seen U.S. policy changes impact girls and women in countries where you work? Yes. So a lot of the activists that Malala Fund supports also receive grants from USAID. And yes, because of the cuts, their organizations were affected, including one organization in Afghanistan as well. And it, you know, for an organization like Malala Fund.

So we don't receive government grants. But we knew that these activists who are working in these important, tough areas of the countries where girls need help with education need or support more than ever. So we are helping them get like fundraising in other ways. And we are also providing them with the funding that they need. Yes, it's reaching to the work for girls' education. It has affected that. There's this thing that this sociologist, Tressie McMillan Cottom, says, that freedom she feels is a responsibility. Her belief is that the more responsible she is to others, the freer she is. And I feel like this is what I'm hearing from you in a way. I was wondering, does that idea resonate with you?

You know, I don't necessarily think about it in the sense of freedom, but I think about it as a purpose of life. I just reflect on the time when I could not be in school. I was only 11 years old, and the Taliban had banned girls from London. it has been my life's mission since then that no other girl faces that I remember recovering from the Taliban bullet and processing this moment that somebody could like hurt a child and since then it has now become my life's goal that no other child takes a bullet

no other child is punishing no other child is punished for daring to be in school So when you face violence, harm, and trauma yourself, you understand how terrible and horrible it is that you can no longer see it even happening to anybody else. You know, people often ask me like how I felt. I'm like, you know, yes, you know, it was all horrible, but I just cannot see it happening to anyone right now,

whether it's girls being banned from school, in Afghanistan or girls, schools being bombed in Gaza or children being forced into labor or girls being married off and, you know, they have to like live under these constant wars and violence. All of these things, like it's just scary. It's, but I just hope that we can create a world without any war and terror and harm for children. where they can have a childhood of joy and learning, and they can have a safe life. Malala Yusuf Tsai, thank you so much.

Oh, thank you so much. Nice talking to you. Malala Yusuf Sae's new memoir is called Finding My Way. Coming up, TV critic David B. and Kuli reviews a new documentary series about Martin Scorsese on Apple TV Plus. This is Fresh Air. A new five part by a great. documentary about Martin Scorsese, analyzing the film director's life and work, is appearing

now on Apple TV Plus. Directed by Rebecca Miller, it's called Mr. Scorsese, and our TV critic David B. and Cooley has this review. If the thought of a five-part five-hour study of Martin Scorsese might sound excessive, then maybe you haven't seen enough of his movies. Or, for that matter, feasted on any of his multi-part documentaries on the history of film, both domestic and international. Their treasures, loaded with insights, passion,

and hints about which films to seek out next for even more riches. In Rebecca Miller's new Mr. Scorsese, he turns that focus and knowledge on his own work, with Miller providing visual aids to underscore his points. Take, for example, one of Scorsese's most famous films, taxi driver. Robert De Niro plays New York City cab driver, Travis Bickle, who is rejected by some elements of the city and repulsed by others. Scorsese explains to Miller how he set out to emphasize Travis's sense of alienation visually

by subtly but intentionally selecting how he presented De Niro's character on screen. So we always try to kind of psychologically try to keep him separate from everybody else. That was the key thing in that film. Who's in whose frame? And so I was trying always to keep him in a single frame, nobody in his frame. And then when I cut to the other person, he's in their frame. But they're not in his. We're given lots of other insights about taxi driver, and not just from Scorsese. Robert De Niro and Jody Foster talk about how their improv sessions during rehearsals

define their characters and led to some of the movie's most indelible scenes. The film's screenwriter, Paul Schrader, talks about how both the director and the director and the actors elevated what was written on the pages of his script. And Schrader, when asked by Miller, also talks very chillingly about how the pent-up, potentially violent loner of taxi driver is a much more familiar character today in real life. It feels like there's a lot of Travis Bickles, especially right now. They're all talking to each other on the Internet.

When I first heard about him, he was talking to nobody. He really was, at that point, the underground man. Now he's the internet, man. One of Scorsese's friends and fellow directors, Stephen Spielberg, offers some taxi driver's insights too. He tells how Scorsese avoided an X-rating for that movie, which the film board threatened to impose because of its bloody climax, by adjusting the color of the blood on the finished prints,

from bright red to a much more muted brown. Scorsese learned that lesson well. Later, for his brutal boxing epic raging raging, Bull, he drained the color of blood completely, shooting the entire film in black and white. Most of Scorsese's films are dissected with this same loving detail, by those who know him and his movies best. The people interviewed include not only De Niro, Foster, Schrader, and Spielberg, but actors Leonardo DiCaprio, Daniel Day Lewis, Sharon Stone, Joe Pesci, Margot Robbie, and Kate Blanchette, directors Spike Lee and Brian De Palma,

and rock stars Mick Jagger and Robbie Robertson. Then there are his other creative collaborators such as Thelma Schoonmaker and his grown children, his wife and ex-wives, and childhood friends. All of them have some informative and wild stories to tell. Early on, Scorsese sits down with some guys from the old neighborhood, including De Niro, to talk about old times. I never forget one night we're standing outside, and there was a guy lying in the Jersey Street.

Remember? And we're still looking, we're talking, we're by the graveyard, and we're going, the guy's not moving. Missing his hands. Yeah, yeah. He's not moving. Yeah, he's dressed nicely. You kind of go over, Robert.

You were going over by looking around. You came back, he said, Jimmy just put a pencil in his head. Yeah? To make sure that it was a bullet hole. That was when Mulberry Street was still the place where they dumped the bodies. They called it Murder Mile. Yeah. Used to be called.

And the barry was called Devil's Man. mile. So we were in between murder mile and devil's mile. But even while growing up in that tough neighborhood, young Marty Scorsese found solace in the local movie theater and began drawing his own make-believe stories. Essentially, they were comic strip storyboards for the movies in his mind. Violent period epics with titles like The Eternal City, complete with gladiators and bloody battles, and with credits that read, even at age 11, directed and produced, by Martin Scorsese. I became obsessed with all kinds of films,

and I used my imagination. I was making up all these stories. So I started drawing these little pictures that showed the impression of movement, like the storyboard for a film. These images move. This is a boom, a tracking shot. Here's the wall of Rome,

and here are the trees here, and the camera's on a crane, and the camera comes all the way down over the backs of the first group of men. And the door's open. Like it's a big crane shot. As you go from here to them, go behind, and you go, down, I'm still doing this shot. I'm still doing it.

It doesn't quite work all the time. The documentary Mr. Scorsese spends its first installment on his early days. His childhood, making student films at NYU, being on the movie camera crew at Woodstock, and eventually getting his break with low-budget movie producer Roger Corman to direct a Bonnie and Clyde knockoff called Boxcar Bertha. When Scorsese showed it to his filmmaking friends, they were unimpressed. And when he showed it to his mentor and hero,

independent filmmaker John Cassavetes, the reaction was even worse. So he looked at Boxcar Bertha. I saw him afterwards. He looked at me, and he was like 10 feet away from me, and he goes, come here. And I went up there and he embraced me. And he held me aside, pushed me aside.

He goes, you just spent a year of your life making a b***. Don't do this again. Don't do this again. And he didn't. Instead, Martin Scorsese made mean streets with Harvey Keitel and Robert De Niro and took all their careers to a higher level. Mr. Scorsese takes us on that journey and some of the stops along the way are breathtaking.

The Last Waltz, Raging Bull, Goodfellas, Casino, the Aviator, the Wolf of Wall Street. There are a few regretful omissions in Mr. Scorsese, but in an overview of this type, that's inevitable and completely acceptable. This new Apple TV Plus series is self-described as a film portrait by Rebecca Miller. And as portraits go, it's by no means a hasty sketch. With its many interviews and film clips and its exciting use of split-screen comparisons and music by the Rolling Stones,

Mr. Scorsese is closer to a patiently painted masterpiece. David B. and Cooley reviewed Mr. Scorsese, now streaming on Apple TV Plus. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, what's happening with the American economy? How constantly changing tariffs, AI, the immigration crackdown, and uncertainty in the job,

job and stock market affect everything from the global economy to our daily lives. We speak with Zanny Mittenbettos, editor-in-chief of The Economist. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing

producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenado, Heidi Saman, Lauren Crenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaliner, Susan Nacundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B.

Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorak directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.