Fresh Air - Michelle Buteau Finds A Lifeline In Humor

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

Buteau says covering the news of the 2001 terrorist attacks crystalized her desire to go into comedy. She spoke with Tonya Mosley about her journey to the stage, needing humor in dark times, and proving her college professor wrong. She stars in the film Babes and in the Netflix series Survival of the Thickest.Also, Ken Tucker shares three summer songs he's had on repeat.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. In the days after September 11, 2001, Michelle Buteau made a life-changing move. She was working overnight as a TV news editor when she decided to take a leap and do stand-up comedy. For years, her co-workers had been telling her she was funny, but it would take one of the most tragic events in U.S. history to give her the courage to take the step into comedy.

Twenty-three years later, Michelle Buteau is booked and busy. She has her own show on Netflix, Survival of the Thickest, a semi-autobiographical comedy that will soon enter its second season. And this summer, she stars in the new film Babes with Alana Glazer. The two, who are friends in real life, play best friends on their journey to motherhood. In this scene, Eden, played by Glazer, has taken several pregnancy tests and can't believe the results keep showing up positive. Her best friend Dawn, played by Michelle Buteau, has recently given birth herself. And as she's pumping for breast milk, she gives her friend a dose of reality.

Alana Glazer speaks first. I'm thinking maybe, just maybe, I am a pregnant person. I'm 28 for 28. I could do a 29th. Yeah, no. You are clearly pregnant. Okay, I don't know how this could have happened. I've had sex once since my last period but I was on my period So so you can't get pregnant on your period girl Girl girl girl girl girl. Yes, you can Girl stop girl. You stop. We went to the same school. We learned the same Come on. No, you can't ma Ma'am, I'm a doctor. You are a dentist. That was Alana Glazer and Michelle Buteau in the new movie Babes out now.

Buteau's Netflix series Survival of the Thickest, which is loosely based on her memoir of the same name, has earned seven NAACP Image Award nominations. Butoh is also the co-host of the podcast Adulting, and her 2021 stand-up special Welcome to Butopia is on Netflix and Comedy Central. And Butoh has just recorded her next Netflix comedy special at Radio City Music Hall, and she's the first woman to do it. Michelle Butoh, welcome to Fresh Air. Hi, thank you. Wow. How does it feel? I mean, this is, you just completed this special at Radio City. How was it? It was one of those moments,

as I like to say, where, you know, Netflix is like, let's do a special. I'm like, let's. And I'm sort of scouting New York City venues because I love New York City from the root of the Tudor. It's my home. So I went to a couple of different venues, and Radio City was kind of like that episode in Say Yes to the Dress where it's like, I know I can't afford this dress, but I just want to see it on. Did you know when you went that you might be the first woman to come? No, no clue.

No, because I know that other females have performed there. But in terms of taping a special, when I got there, in terms of taping a special, when I got there, I was like, who else has filmed here? And they were like, oh, no one. Excuse me? No other females? No, no, no other females. You'd be the first. And then, you know, I got that feeling, like a little tingling. And it wasn't because I had too much coffee. It was like, it was the spirit. It was the spirit moving

me and saying, I have to do this. This is bigger picture. This is not just about me. I want to talk a little bit about this new movie that you're in, Babes, which is now in theaters. In it, you play Dawn. Dawn is an exhausted mother who works as a dentist, and she lives in a townhouse on the Upper West Side with her husband, Marty, played by Hasan Minhaj. And at the start of the film, you've just given birth to your second child, and your best friend is Eden, played by Alana Glazer. In this scene I'm about to play, your character Dawn is in labor, and she and her best friend Eden have stopped for lunch at this nice New York City restaurant. And Dawn's water, your water, has already broken, and you're leaking, something that a server notices after he serves a whole table full of food. Let's listen. I would say, let me know if you need anything else,

but this is literally all the foods we have, so. Don't go far, though. You might need seconds. Okay, no problem. And, oh, I'm sorry, looks like you had a little spill there. Oh, no, no, it's just some drippage. I'm in labor. Congratulations to me. In the movies, it's like this monsoon.

But in real life, it can be trickless. The water will keep coming. Don't worry about cleaning it up. No, I definitely will need to tell my boss that. It just says it's fluids and it's people eating. Who knows what's in the fluid? What do you do to Gordon Ramsay if my... Get out of here. Why do you hate women? I don't know.

I need more chocolate mousse. I'll get that. Thank you. Bye. That was my guest, Michelle Buteau, starring alongside Alana Glazer in the new movie, Babes. Michelle, I think one reviewer said, it's a comedy rooted in the right for pregnant women to be gross. That was definitely no holding back. I mean, there was definitely no holding back on what happens to mothers and their bodies. It's so funny. So just a little Easter egg,

that waiter is Josh Verbinovitz, who co-wrote the movie with Alana. I wondered. When they wrote the movie together, Alana was pregnant and Josh's wife was pregnant. And so they hadn't fully gotten to that other side of the mountain of exhaustion. But it's so funny, you know, I've heard a lot of words like gross and raunchy. And Alana and I just look at each other like, or honest, you know, even when my mom, at the end of my special taping at Radio City Music Hall, and she came to me with tears in her eyes, and she wore her good church wig with the lace front, you know, hugging me, and all her cheap sequins is getting caught on my suit. And I'm like, okay. And she's like, I'm so proud of you. I'm like, thank you. You should be. And she's like, it was raunchy, but it was good. I'm just

like, see, that's the thing. When a woman is being honest, it's raunchy. But when a man is being honest, ooh, ain't he telling the truth? You know, one of the things I noticed, it's funny you bring up the men in the film, because one of the things I noticed was that the film doesn't talk badly about men, though, as well. It's a movie rooted in these female relationships and community, and the men, for the most part, are pretty supportive and loving. Yeah, because men can be supportive and loving. They can and they are in my life, in Alana's life, in a lot of people's lives. I think it's been a very easy joke to punch down on everyone. But what happens when we lift each other up and really talk about what life really looks like, it can still be funny. It can still be entertaining. You can still make money.

And I think, you know, I don't know people, especially comedians, not even new comedians, comedians have been doing it for a while, kind of subscribe to this copy and paste. This is how we talk about people. And I love that they did that. I love that you can seemingly have it all, a supportive husband, the zip code you want to live in, healthy children, and still be exhausted. I love that they never named postpartum. They just kind of showed you what life could be like,

you know? And so I just love the movie so much. And I think it's so important. I heard at first, though, you said no to the role. Zia Mosley, why you put me out there like that? Come on, I taught you. How dare you? Well, you got to tell the story because, I mean, I actually think that it's all part of it in motherhood, right? So I was prepping for season one of Survival of the Thickest. I'm in my 40s. I am playing a 38 year old. I have three year old twins, a loving relationship with my husband and my body. That's

a lot to be taken care of. Also, I'm the only child. If I don't call my parents every day, they're like, what happened? What happened to you? Right? And so I have a lot child. If I don't call my parents every day, they're like, what happened? What happened to you? Right? And so I have a lot to do and I don't want to mess it up and I want to be present for everyone and everything. And Alana's like, but I don't see anyone else doing this role but you. And I was like, I'm a tired mom of two and I'm working a lot. She's like, yeah, that's the role. This is why she's amazing too and having friends that do what you do because she's like, as a former creator starring in and showrunner,

you don't have to be present for X, Y, and Z. So wouldn't it be amazing to have a hit show and a movie at the same time? I'm like, of course. And she kind of like forced me into it. And then when Pamela Adlon was attached as a director, I'm like, I really got to do it because I love these women too much. So I'm glad I did it. I'm glad I did it. Well, I'm absolutely fascinated by your career trajectory because, okay, I just have to tell you, like you, on September 11th, I was an overnight news editor and producer for a local TV station. It was a small one. And like you, I was working overnights and planning to skip out a little earlier on my shift, which ended at 9.30 in the morning.

Oh, my God. The towers were hit. But you were actually in New York City at the time working for a station in the city. Yeah, I was working at, and I believe I can say, WNBC. And my shift was midnight to 9.30. And when this happened, it was obviously mayhem. And I stayed, I don't know, well into the evening because we didn't know what was happening. But there was no ending in sight. And I didn't even realize that that day, I mean, would change my life and everybody's. Yeah, knowing what your job entailed, that you were literally for hours on end

in what I can imagine is a tiny dark room for hours, cutting footage. I can just imagine how that changes a person so much so it made you consider a whole new path. Yeah, I didn't realize until like three months later that my shoulders were up to my ears the whole time. You know, when you get bad news and it's unfolding in real time horror movie and trying to put together a 30 second video with no body parts. You had to edit them out. You were tasked with editing them. In those early days. Yes. There is that thing about the news where it's like you don't need to see the same graphic thing over and over again.

So it was just like, what is this and what are we doing and who are we and why did this happen? And I had just more questions than answers. And, you know, for about a year, my coworkers were telling me like, you're so funny, you should do stand up. And I was like, shut up. I love money. Stand-ups always talk about being broke. That's a no. And so what happened on September 11th leading into September 12th, 2001 is that I realized, wow, we all might die, so I better start living. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is stand-up comedian, actor, and author Michelle Buteau. She stars in the new movie Babes. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com.

T's and C's apply. Michelle, when you first started doing stand-up, what were your sets like? What kinds of things were you joking about? You know, I think when you first start stand-up, it's you say things that you wish you could say on a microphone. And so it was like a lot of self-deprecating things, which is what women usually, you know, go towards. And then cussing. But a lot of it was like kind of like owning my sexuality and being like, I'm big boned and what, you know? And, um, you know, and then like one of the first jokes I wrote was, oh my God, rides at Disneyland remind me of my ex-boyfriend, three hours of waiting for a two minute ride. I think it was pretty good. Okay. Um, and then the other joke was just like,

people always ask me how I got so light and I'm like, hello, it's called colonialism. And, you know, you could really make that joke anywhere. I've made that joke a lot in Europe. And it always feels like it's a too soon situation. You're talking about your complexion. And I'm sure you're not surprised to learn that if someone Googles you, one of the first autofills is Michelle Butoh ethnicity. People have really been trying to figure out what you are. Yeah. And somehow somewhere somebody has said that my dad is half Lebanese.

He is not. But that's hilarious. I mean, I have talked about my dad's from Haiti. He's from a town called Cai. But like, you know, if you want to pay for my 23andMe, let's hilarious. I mean, I have talked about my dad's from Haiti. He's from a town called Cai. But like, you know, if you want to pay for my 23andMe, let's go. But it is always so funny, too, because I just came back from Jamaica yesterday. My mom's from Jamaica. And I remember growing up, I'd tell people I'm Jamaican and Haitian. And being a light-skinned person with freckles, they're like, what? In America. And they're like, you don't look Jamaican or Haitian. I'm like, have you been there?

They're like, no. And I'm like, how do you know what the people look like if you've never been? I'm just wondering, because you're someone who is so body positive. You seem to love your body. You genuinely enjoy yourself. Were you always this way or was it a process for you to get there? Oh my God. Can you imagine if I just had the confidence of Lizzo at the Grammys in first grade? No, not at all. It was a process. And that's why when people talk to me, I mean, men, women, and non-binary royalty, when they talk to me about their body and like learning to love their body, like that's a process. You know, it's just like learning to eat well or figure out, you know, what kind of exercise works for you or, you know, it's a process, you know.

Unfortunately, unfortunately, with age, it gets better because then you realize it's not you. There's a bigger problem. It's this unrealistic patriarchal standard of beauty that we'll never live up to. Things are getting a bit better. I mean, I can't believe there's, like, plus-size clothing, because I truly always looked like a Greek widow. It was always black.

And, like, I love black. No shade to black. But it's like, are those the only choices? And so it's all the things. It is taking care of your body, your mental health, your physical health. It is the company you keep, the food you eat. It is all these things. It's what you listen to.

I mean, that's all a part of your process. And so even with my mom, who I love, I love my mom, and my mom loves me. We are, as the kids would say, Gucci, LOL. Who's listening to this? But even when I was playing a sold-out beacon theater show last year, I showed her my outfit, and she said, I'd prefer something a little bit more age-appropriate because you're almost 50. I'm like, what?

What? Still? That's her job, right? I know. Is it? And so I'm just like, yeah, even the people that love you will say something about your body, but you, you, the most important opinion you will ever have is the one you have about yourself. So you really have to believe that. And if that means cutting people off for a little while, you know, and having people around you that just love on you, then do that. You know, I'm just thinking about those early days when you were doing stand-up, when you were going to all sorts of places, really small towns and laundromats and strip clubs. How did people take in your brand of humor and who you were, who you are during those early days when you're going into some places that may have not ever seen someone like you? This is kind of what comedians have to have. own home, you know, taking three flights to the middle of Iowa or Idaho to perform for 10 or 200

people who may or may not be listening just to get that experience. It's about flying myself out to London and begging to be put on bar shows while people are like taking a cigarette break because all of that is your training. And so, you know, I had a really wise, hilarious comedian friend, Will Silvins, tell me, once you get really good in a room, go to a room where you're the worst, you know, and that's how you get better. And so I've always remembered that. I'm like, okay, not that this is too easy. This is nice, but let's go somewhere else. And so, yeah, I don't know what dragon I was chasing. I was just like, let's go. Like a lot of people aren't like either getting this opportunity or taking advantage of it. And so I always looked at it as like an opportunity to learn something good or bad and get better. You know, I always hear that stand-up is very much a boys' club,

which occurred to me that in TV news, at the time that you worked in it, it was also this male-dominated space. But what kinds of things would you do when you were out on the road to command respect? Did you ever have any incidents where someone was trying to cheat you or shaft you? You know, I hear these stories of, like, I got to be paid in cash, that kind of thing.

You know, it's not just comedy. I think like any job you go, any workforce, it's a male dominated, even women's fashion. Fashion for women, male dominated. What? So, I mean, whatever you want to do, just understand that, number one. Number two, you know, I'm not good at arguing with people. So that's just not what I do. I'm, you know, my dad has always said, don't work for a thank you leave with a you're welcome so anytime there was like a

pushback or you got to go first or do less time or I need to do more time or whatever it was I my whole thing is no matter how long I've been doing comedy I am gonna kill it I'm gonna kill I'm gonna murder this set and I'm gonna make it hard for you to follow me. Whether I'm opening for you, whether I got the poo-poo spot, whatever it is, I'm gonna give it my all and get everybody riled up and I'm gonna see if you can maintain that energy. And I don't think a lot of comedians think that way. I want them to. Everyone is really concerned with like title and what comma they have in their paycheck. And I understand that those things are important too. But the most important is that you just leave it on the stage.

You grew up in New Jersey. You describe yourself as moving around a lot as a kid. I love Jersey and I've lived all over Jersey. And Jersey is definitely one of those states that feels like a nationality like Texas or Massachusetts or something. But like, Jersey was tough. It's aggressive. It's aggressive. More aggressive than New York? I think so it's a lot of fighting

a lot of fights I had to learn how to fight when I was 13 or 14 it's really young you know and it's probably like even younger for some you know I wouldn't say

Catholic middle school but like yeah just remember whether it's the parents fighting at the soccer game or the kids fighting in school. It just, you know, I have good memories of the three high schools I went to and the people I've met and kept in touch with. And, you know, us, you know, learning the dances to every Jenna Jackson or Mariah Carey video and stuff. And, but I just remember the fighting.

You mentioned your, your parents are Haitian and Jamaican. And I, I love this thing you said about your parents that they left everything they knew to come here they had that immigrant spirit and that bravery lives in you you're their only child were either of them or anyone else in your family funny like you yeah my dad is so gregarious it's like insane you know he'll walk in a room and he'll let you know that he's there whether he wants to be there or not. He speaks a lot of languages. He's traveled to like over 70 countries for his job. He was an international auditor. And so like he's magic.

He's magical. And he can make people laugh in different languages, you know. Well, that's a skill for sure. Yeah. Yeah, for real and so and um you know my mom is um very hard working and will quietly sort of take care of people and make sure they feel lifted up um what did they think when you quit your job to be a comedian oh my god did you talk to my therapist before I came here? You just let me know what's too personal.

No, no, it's all good. I mean, yeah. I think they kind of saw it coming because the minute I chose to study communications in college, my dad's like, you know how to communicate. You speak English. Do something else. What's this for?

And so, you know, I kept my job as an overnight editor for, I think, six or seven years while I was, like, moonlighting and doing comedy. It was really important for me to make my own money. I saw No Shade to my cousins. I love you, but you know who you are. You know, leaning on their parents for money well into their adulthood while they had families. I did not want that to be me. You know, I think my parents chose to have a small family because they wanted to be able to afford everything. And I'm like, yes, I like that.

That's great. I don't want to ask people for things. I want to make it myself. And so, yeah, I just made sure that I had money in my account so I didn't have to ask them, which was great too, you know, because then it kind of made it fun. You know, I wasn't like, oh, I got to do it to keep the lights on. I'm doing it because I love it.

You majored in communications in college because you wanted to be an entertainment reporter. I did. I wanted to be an entertainment reporter. I wanted to give a little John Tesh Mary Hart to the scene with like a little shoulder pad. I love your 90s references, by the way. Entertainment tonight, come on. I did your 90s references, by the way. Entertainment tonight? Come on. I did.

I wanted to be an entertainment reporter. You know, my mom used to get the Enquirer in the supermarket, and I used to, you know, rip out the pages and, like, go in the bathroom mirror and, like, do a little recap. And that's kind of what I wanted to do. And I remember I had a very kind of conservative professor tell me in front of the whole class because we were going around and saying what we wanted to do with our degree.

And I said, I want to be an entertainment reporter. And he said, you're simply too fat to be on TV. And I didn't even. He said that in front of the whole class. He did. He did. I got a little hot. I was a little embarrassed.

But, you know, he was also like this, tell it like it is, listen to me and you'll work in the business kind of. And everyone respected him. And I was raised to respect my elders. And like, I don't want to, I already have like a New York accent, a Jersey accent in Miami. So people already think I'm like way more aggressive. Yeah.

So I was like, okay, fair enough. And I didn't even see anyone like me. So I was like, I believed it. And that's why words matter. That's why when I see people talk to my kids, I'm like, you better, you better make it good. Don't do that because they believe you. Please tell me this professor knows where you are now and what you're doing.

Honestly, if he doesn't have a Netflix password, he probably did because he was old to begin with. But, you know, my school has reached out to me to apologize. Oh, they have. They learned about this and they. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like this was like the 20s, the 1920s, but like, I don't think there was a lot of training back then.

You know, I don't think there was any sensitivity training. I think, I think teachers are overworked and underpaid for show. And so I can't even, now that I have kids, I can't even imagine what it's like being with someone else's kid all day. But if you're doing it because you love it, then just be nice. Don't tell a kid no just because someone told you no. That's not fair. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is stand-up comedian, actor, and author Michelle Buteau.

She stars in the new movie Babes. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. Your husband, as you famously joke, is Dutch. And I want to play a clip from your special where you talk about the cultural differences between you two. Let's listen. listen but sometimes i feel like i just don't understand him right like i'm his like sassy american wife and he's this very polite white dutch dude and i don't understand him sometimes and i feel like he doesn't understand the nuance of an american husband you know i'm from jersey and he thinks i sound aggressive all the time. That's the thing. Like I'll be making breakfast and I swear to God, I feel like he just hears DMX, you know? For real. I'm like, how you want your eggs? How you want your eggs? This your weight?

That was my guest comedian, Michelle Buteau from her 2020 Netflix comedy special, Michelle Buteau, Welcome to Butopia. How did you two meet? Okay, well, it was supposed to be one night stand. It was supposed to be one night stand. It turned into a lifetime stand. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, I was doing a lot of comedy at the time. And I had been cheated on a lot.

And I'm like, you know what? Dating is just not for me. Getting to know someone. This is just so stupid. And so what I did have time for was sex. What I didn't have time for was a two to three hour dinner and listening to really boring stories. So I was not into dating at all. I'm like, and I didn't want the guy to pay for me because then he felt beholden to me calling him back or something. I'm like, get out of here.

I can pay for my own meals. I'd rather do three shows in one night and figure out this joke than pretend that you and your childhood is entertaining. And so it just kind of worked out for me, I guess. But also instinct, right? I'm not going to just hook up with any old body. It's like you want to feel safe with them and that there's chemistry. And yeah, like I said, I don't think, I just do. And then I think afterwards. And I'm glad that he was in town and that it happened because I couldn't have imagined meeting my husband this way, my life partner. It's so funny you played that one joke because even this morning we put the kids in the van.

I was headed over here. He didn't have the key. And he's like, where's the key? I'm like, you're driving. He's like, well, how'd you open the door? I was like, it was unlocked. You don't have a key? He's like, why do you sound like that? I'm like, why do you sound like that? I'm DMXing. I was just wondering if you're ever, because you talk about how different you guys are,

how if you're ever just cracking yourself up with references that he has no idea about, like just tickling yourself at home. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, but I think we've been together so long that we share a lot of references and like inside baseball kind of stories, you know, like we love to watch 90 Day Fiance. That is our jam because that was kind of our process. And so we just love that the government has given people 90 days to figure out how sad they're going to be or happy, let's just say. And, yeah, that's our love language. The 90 days was your story, too. Of course, you met as a one-night stand stand, but yeah, for him to come here.

Yeah. Yeah. I've never even lived with someone before. I never even had a pet and here comes this guy and I don't know how to say his name or speak his language. And now I'm going to be responsible for him. That's a lot of pressure. You are definitely, definitely thrown into like a, like a washer machine of like adulthood where you're like, figure it out. But, you know, at our core, we vibe because we both have the same moral compass, which is nice. And, you know, the Dutch are very, they're about equality, right? And so that's where I'm at.

People will have to read your book to know. I think I learned the most about you by learning your journey to motherhood, just the grit and what you were made of. You have five-year-old twins. You had a surrogate. Michelle, you have this ability to put a smile on your face. Chris Rock once said, you could talk about anything, you just have to make it funny. And if that's true, then do that. But if you keep working at it and it's not funny, then I think you should move on.

When things get hard, you seem to turn to humor. Mm-hmm. And I think it goes without saying, the obvious, that, of course, humor is the source of joy. But you just have this ability to take it in stride. Yeah. It's always saved me. You know, I think it was four miscarriages in five years, traveling back and forth to California from New York

for auditions and things and chemistry tests and traveling with needles and medicine and forgetting the thing. And then, like, my husband's got to send it. It was insane. But, like, comedy, like, kept me alive. You know, I had something to live for. I had something to do.

I had, like, a sense of normalcy. And I think that's why it's so important to really, if you can, do something you love. I mean, I think humor is my lifeline. Do you have a lot of women who come up to you and are just like, you're me. I'm you. I see myself in you. Oh, yeah.

That's my most favorite. Because, I mean, they could be 10 years old to like 85 and there's something within me that sparks something within them. And I'm like, this is what sisterhood is. And it's not even just women. It is curvy men. It is, you know, like trans women who are just like, let's go. And it feels like a whole different type of love in the community that, like, I haven't felt before. You've done so much so far. You're an actor, a stand-up comedian, a writer, an author, a TV host, a producer. What is your approach to opportunity? Is it hard to say no when your cup is overflowing like this?

I mean, you know, I was doing it all for free before anyways. I was just, you know, doing it myself and just putting it up. I love it. And I think that's why I wanted to be an entertainment reporter and got into production. I just really love it. I mean, even when I do ADR for my show, these sound guys are like, I've never seen somebody so happy to do the same line a hundred times. I'm like, man, you can find something in the line every time you do it. That's what stand-up is. We're telling these jokes a lot for a lot of different people,

sometimes two or three times a night. Oh, my God. Being in my 40s with five-year-old twins and doing, like, the second show, I'm like, did I tell y'all this joke? Because I don't know. Okay, it's gonna be a good one. It's a doozy. Like, I don't know. But it's just fun. And so, you know, I'm definitely more selective with my time because I don't want to be a tired mom. I don't want to be a tired wife. So yeah, I want to be present. But it's very nice being in this place where I'm like, no, no, thank you. And people are

like, you have the opportunity. Yes. And they're like, please, more money. And I'm like, what? I should have been saying no a long time ago. Michelle Buteau, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Oh, my goodness. Thank you. When do we drink? Michelle Buteau stars in the new film Babes

and the Netflix comedy series Survival of the Thickest. Coming up, rock critic Ken Tucker reviews three new rock, punk, and funk songs that he says are redefining their genres. This is Fresh Air. Rock, punk, and funk. Our rock critic Ken Tucker has come up with examples of three genres musicians are exploring in new ways. Mike Campbell, the former member of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, as the lead of his band, The Dirty Knobs.

Newly minted TikTok sensation Tommy Richmond and two brothers, Jeff and Stephen McDonald, who've been leading the band Red Cross on and off for more than four decades. Ken says they share a knack for sounding upbeat and spontaneous. Let's start with Mike Campbell and the Dirty Knobs. around here. I'm running out of time. You blow like a hurricane. You blow my burning brain. Mike Campbell came to prominence as lead guitarist for Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Growing up about an hour away from each other in northern Florida, Campbell and Petty share a similar high nasal croon. For the past decade, Campbell has been making Petty-esque music with his own band,

The Dirty Knobs, first as a side project and, after the death of Petty in 2017, as his bread and butter. Campbell and the Dirty Knobs' new album, Vagabonds, Virgins, and Misfits, has a number of songs so good they transcend the Petty comparison. And one of the best of them is Dare to Dream. It features lyrics powered by positivity, lines about how these are the best of times, and this is the good life. Even as his tone suggests, he may believe there are hidden pitfalls in daring to dream too naively. Here comes a brand new day, you can throw away the last one. It's gonna be alright, as long as no one tries to pull a fast one And this is what you've waited for

There's no waiting anymore These are the best of times This is the good life. And all you dare to dream can come true. Dare to dream. That's Graham Nash singing on the catchy chorus. Speaking of catchy, there's a new song called Million Dollar Baby by Tommy Richman that has already given birth to hundreds, probably thousands, maybe millions of TikTok videos of people dancing to this irresistible hit.

The music is a deceptively languid groove formed by keyboards, bass, and drums that really gets going when Richmond's elastic voice bounces in. Richmond starts out singing in a smoky Robinson soprano that drops much lower in spots. We have definitely got a new candidate for the song of the summer here. I ain't never ever said, baby, don't make you no wrong. I can clean up dirt for you. I know right from wrong. Because I want to make it. So make me a million dollars, baby. Don't ask me. Oh, hell no.

You wreck my city. It's so damn long. But you still don't know the speed. So next. We are next. I'm at the neck. next, running up the chain. I see a bat, I'm a sheer diva, no matter what happens, he cannot come between us again. I know I'm better than friends, better than I used to be.

I turn up, please get me, I'm short around my friends. That music is at once up to the minute and redolent of classic late 70s, early 80s funk. Think Cameo or Lakeside or The Gap Band. The lyrics of Million Dollar Baby are as shrewdly optimistic as Mike Campbell's Dare to Dream. Tommy Richmond sings, I want to make it so badly. He is the million-dollar baby, in his own mind at least. Another act whose music reaches across decades is Red Cross, a 45-year-old band led by brothers Jeff and Stephen McDonald. The key song on their new album is the autobiography titled Born Innocent. song, played a show quit the only job that I'd ever know

I've rejected your old-fashioned blues and it's due We are born born innocent We all are born innocent We are born, born innocent We all are born innocent, original innocence.

Now in their 50s, the McDonald brothers began their careers as teenagers, playing alongside West Coast hardcore acts like Black Flag and Fear. I saw those kids thrash their way through lots of loud, fast, short songs when I lived in L.A. in the early 80s. Red Cross's new, copious 18-song album called Red Cross is loaded with sweet harmonies and thunderous guitar riffing. Like Mike Campbell and Tommy Richmond, the Red Cross guys are making music rooted in a deep knowledge of the past and an appreciation of the hard work required to make pleasure sound so spontaneous and so exhilarating. It's quite obvious The things that you say Yeah

You are just a stone queen With the annoying games that you play I don't blame you But try to make a name for yourself Looking for some team in action. So predictably off the shelf. I'll say yeah, no, no, no, hey, whoa, whoa. Ken Tucker reviewed new music by Mike Campbell, Tommy Richmond, and Jeff and Stephen McDonald.

Tomorrow on Fresh Air, President Biden and Donald Trump will face the nation in their first presidential debate this season. We'll talk with Shane Goldmacher with The New York Times about what to expect from tomorrow's debate and the swell in donations for Trump's campaign after his felony convictions. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.

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