Fresh Air - Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

Michelle Williams' FX/Hulu series Dying For Sex follows a woman with terminal cancer who decides to pursue her own sexual pleasure. She says the show is about sex, friendship and "being scared and brave at the same time."Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like NPR, a show that focuses not on the important but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants and competent criminals in ridiculous science studies and call it Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me because the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. Yes, that is what it is called wherever you get your podcasts. It is called Wherever You Get Your Podcast. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tonya Mosley.

You know, sometimes a show reaches out and grabs you by the collar with its honesty. That's what happened after I watched the first episode of the new FX series, Dying for Sex. I knew immediately that I had to watch the rest of it alone. I needed to sit with it, to cry without feeling self-conscious, to laugh without an audience, because the show is so intimate, so distinctly human. Adapted from the Wondery podcast of the same name,

and based on a true story, Dying for Sex follows a woman named Molly, played by my guest today, Michelle Williams. Molly leaves her marriage after a terminal breast cancer diagnosis and embarks on a sexual adventure. But that doesn't even scratch the surface. Yes, there is sex, sometimes kinky, a little awkward, often hilarious. But the show is really about everything surrounding it.

It's about what happens when the fear of dying outweighs the fear of never having truly lived. It's about how trauma gets stored in the female body. It's about reclaiming pleasure, even after we've been told that it doesn't belong to us. In this scene that I'm about to play, Molly has just learned that her breast cancer has returned and is now stage four.

She begins meeting with the palliative care counselor for support. I'm too young and it sucks, okay? I haven't done anything with my life. I actually don't know what I like or what I want. I've never even had an orgasm with another person. And now I'm gonna die. Good. Molly. Hey.

We have something for your list. Orgasm with another person. Dying for sex is also a story about friendship. Jenny Slate plays Nicky, Molly's best friend, who becomes her caretaker after Molly leaves her loving but emotionally unavailable husband. And at times, their friendship feels like the real love story. And did I mention that this is a comedy? Michelle Williams has spent her career

exploring the complexities and inner lives of women, from her breakout role as Jen Lindley on Dawson's Creek to Gwen Verdon in Fosse-Verdon, and the role of Mitzi, Steven Spielberg's mother in The Fablemans. She's been nominated five times for an Academy Award and has won two Golden Globes and took

home an Emmy for her performance in Fosse-Verdon. A warning for those who might have children in the room, we will be talking about sex and pleasure during this conversation. Michelle Williams, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really thrilled to be here with you. I am thrilled to have you. You heard me say I needed to watch this series alone. You know, me and my husband, the wonderful thing about this job is we get previews and we kind of

watch it together, kind of like a date night, you know. And after that first episode, I said I have to watch it alone. I watched the whole series by myself. And then of course, I went to him sobbing, telling him all about it. And I heard you had a similar experience after listening to the podcast that this is based on. I did. It unraveled me. And I went back to listen to it for a second time to try and figure out why it had this power over me. And then there I was on the floor again with no sense of what had really just happened. And I listened to the podcast in tandem with reading the first, the pilot episode written by Liz Merriwether and Kim Rosenstock. And those companion pieces

for me cast such a spell that I immediately, for reasons that I couldn't understand and were beyond me, knew that I wanted to make this. And went to my husband and said, well, you need to take a look at this because this is going to be in our life now. Have you come to understand the core of that emotion, where that kind of like magical thing came from within you that knew this was something you had to do? I think it's a lot of things, but if I could put one pin in it, it would be that it's possible

to be both scared and brave at the same time. And that's what I think moved me so much about Molly's journey and this best friendship. Yes, this is definitely a series about friendship and almost how like our female friendships, we can have soulmates with each other. You know, we often think of that in the romantic context. Jenny Slate played your best friend and what chemistry you guys had. I actually heard something like,

I think the test read that you all did, you came, you arrived in the same outfit or something like that. Yeah, it was like when you were a kid, you know, and you would call your best friend and say, what are we doing? You know, the black t-shirt and the white shorts, and that's how we showed up. I knew that we would part and come back together. You know, we had this reading, this moment, but already the connection was made and we knew that we would go down this road together. And the, you know, the sweet, the very sweet ending to the story is she's moving to Brooklyn where I live and Liz lives and

so it has... Wait, you mean Jenny Slate? Jenny Slate is... So in real life, right, you all became friends in real life. Yeah, we're hitching our wagons together. You seem to be someone who really values friendship, almost in a way that is kind of communal. I've heard you just talk throughout your career

about the friends that you've collected over time, that it become kind of like your family. That's very true. I'm thinking of all the friends that I've lived with in what really felt like a commune for a while. There was a period of my life where we had room to share and my friends came to make our house feel like a home.

One of my best friends, Daphne, we slept in the same bed for years and another friend, Jeremy, lived downstairs and then they would have, their friends would be there. It was a kind of like a real open door policy to create a sense of community. And those have been the sustaining relationships in my life that have taken me to this place where now I have a growing family and a husband, but it's those friendships that have sort of created

a support and we share this memory of this time together when we all lived under one roof. I wanna talk a little bit more about friendship, but I wanna talk about sex for a minute, okay? Sex is a proxy for so many things, although sex in this series is kind of spoken about in a literal sense, and like the things that you want to do before you pass. One of the things that I think I heard you say is like, I have never had to do on screen like perform self-pleasure. And I wanted to ask you about that because

that act is so intimate. You know, we do it without being self-conscious, you know, because we're often alone. And here you are in front of an entire crew, right? I can imagine. What was it like and how were you able to get to that truth for yourself in those moments when you had to act out those scenes? Mm-hmm. So the thing that I'm always looking for, and I think the reason that I go to work, is to expand my sense of freedom. And that the moments between action and cut, that is a very safe space. Because nothing bad can truly happen there. The worst that can happen to me is that I feel embarrassed.

But that's not going to destroy me, nor is it going to stop me. So I have to continue to tell myself that that is my time to get free. And that's kind of my mantra, get free, get free, get free. And so I returned again to that idea of it is possible to be both scared and brave at the same time. So I had to tell myself that a lot before those scenes and really hold on to this idea of relaxation, expansion, and freedom. What a profound place to be, to find freedom between action and cut. Has it always been that way for you? How did you learn that lesson? I think it's an idea that's been dawning for a while, and a place that I've come to think

I can have real pleasure. And I think some of it is based in the way that I grew up. I had this section of my childhood where I lived in Montana, and there was so much spaciousness, and so much liberation, and so much freedomness and so much liberation and so much freedom and so much trust. What did that look like? The sprawling land of Montana, it was a place where a child could be unattended to and still

have the parents feel like the child was safe because the child was in nature, in a field, on a dirt road, in a big backyard. And so, it allowed for this kind of exploration. And recently, it's kind of dawned on me, oh, I think that's the thing that I would relate it to most in my life, is this feeling that I had of a child sort of following my own hands and feet to a place that I didn't know anything about, but there might be a discovery to be made there. And I think those two experiences, how I feel about my work and how I felt about my early childhood, are related to each other. Danielle Pletka Was that your great-grandparents or your grandparents in Montana that you spent a lot of time with? My great grandparents, Bessie and Herb.

Yeah. How did they foster that sense of freedom and play for you, too? Well, they also had a real open door policy. They were Democrats, and so they would take in travelers. I remember a summer that we took in a family and they had children our age and we played together and we would lay down a blanket in the middle of the living room and it would become a stage and we would put on this show that we had been working on while our parents were busy doing things that parents do, cooking and cleaning and tasks and chores. We were free to do what we wanted with our time. And that would be looking for arrowheads

or snake skins or riding horses. But really our parents and grandparents believed that nature was a safe place for us and so that was our playground. And I think about this as it relates to my own children because I think nature was really my first teacher. And nature is impartial. It doesn't care about you and it doesn't care about good or bad or right or wrong. It cares about safety and danger. And so these lessons were not heavy-handed. And you know, I think about it as with my own children because the landscape

has changed so much. And will they have those experiences? And I don't know the answer to that yet. One of the other things I was thinking about is, you know, when I was coming of age, of course we know like sex is for everyone as a consenting adult. But really the message that you're told as a woman is that sex is for men and that you're performing for them. This series actually made me kind of think about that in new ways at this old age that I hadn't thought about. What about for you? Same, same. The consideration of one's own pleasure was not in the conversation when I was coming of age. It was, listen, first of all, you shouldn't do it. But if you have to, you'll probably suffer a tragedy,

get sick or die. So it seemed pretty scary and loaded. And it's certainly taken me a long time to unpack. And I just, I do believe that things will be different for my daughter. Oh, say more. What do you mean? I see her generation and their radical acceptance of each other and themselves. And I see them working together with more equality than certainly what I was raised with. Look, I hope I'm not just talking about Brooklyn. I want this. Nicole Soule-Briant When you're talking about Brooklyn, where you guys live.

Danielle Pletka No, I think I know what you mean because I have an 18-year-old daughter. And every time I listen to she and her friends, I think I know what you mean because I have an 18-year-old daughter. And every time I listen to she and her friends, I think like, wow, I mean, they're just so far and beyond where I was at that age. That's what I think. I just think, oh, she's just light years ahead of where I maybe even am. She teaches me she is proud of me and accepting of me. And even this show, she's like, you go, mom, or like I did a magazine cover that was racy. And she said, you look amazing.

And so I don't know if it's cultural, I don't know if it's familial, I don't know if it's title, I don't know if it's, but I'm seeing a rapid push in developmental readiness as it relates to my daughter. 1. LESLIE KENDRICK One of the things that I am preparing for this interview with you, I found so remarkable, is there are so many projects that are brought

to you, that are offered to you, and you draw that line where you say, if it's going to interfere with your role as a mother, I can't do it. And then what I think is also an amazing thing is that many of the times folks have said, well, we will accommodate that. If you can't be a part of this series by moving across the country or the world, we'll move to where you are. I find that remarkable. And I just wanted just wanted to know like how did you come to

that sense of self and strength and fortitude that says I'm going to make this deliberate line in the sand between my career and my family. I think maybe the first time that it happened was when I was on Blue Valentine and it was meant to be set in California and I'd been attached to it for so many years and it was my heart and my passion and my everything, my reason for being. And they said, guess what, we are ready to go. Come on to California. And it totally broke my heart but I didn't feel like I was in a position in that moment to relocate my daughter and myself. And they said, I have to let this go. This is not going to be good for the health of her family. And so I was lucky enough to meet a collaborator, Derek

See in France, who said, OK, then we'll take what was set by the ocean and set it by the mountains. So I've been lucky enough to come across collaborators who would make that accommodation, and then also just find other ways to accommodate. Can we do it during the summer so that it's not disruptive of her school pattern or is it a place that will allow for some incredible opportunity for her? So it's sort of a give and a take and just always kind of checking in with that maternal instinct.

Thinking back to something you were saying about friendship and that communal connection that you've been able to foster and feel with friends, your eldest daughter Matilda's dad is the late Heath Ledger and you've spoken so beautifully about your friend and award-winning actor Jeremy Strong, how he was such a strong presence in your life after Heath's death, almost like he moved in quite literally and became what you needed in that moment. Can you share what it meant to have a friend like that during such a profound time in your life?

Well, that was the period of time in my life when there were sort of multiple people going in and out of that house. Like I referenced my friend Daphne, we shared a bedroom and a closet and a bathroom and then Jeremy was there, my sister was there. We had a name, I think maybe Jeremy came up with it, and he called it Fort Awesome. And it was like Pippi Longstocking or something, something that you imagine as a child, you know, you imagine this place where you could go and you could make some of the rules and you would be together and there would be, it would be full of fun and play and ideas and personalities and acceptance and love.

And he had sort of imagined this place as a child that he, his child mind would call Fort Awesome. And he said, I think that was kind of like what that time was. It was like Fort Awesome. What did that look like? Because I think you said like, you described Jeremy as serious enough to hold the weight of a child's broken heart, which is so powerful and sensitive enough to approach her through play. Exactly. That was, that's my friend. That's who I've known for a long time. That's who

I know now and raise my children with great proximity to his children, but that at the heart of what he does and who he is that maybe you don't get to witness if you don't know him in the way that I do is this delight in play. So he would be engaged for as long as Matilda wanted to be on fairy princesses or tea parties or dress up. So I think I was trying to communicate that there's another aspect to this person, this friend of mine who I love so much, and to shine a little light on that.

It also seems to make sense. It comes together because now we have known him as his star star has risen to be such an intense actor and taking his craft and his work so seriously. I can just imagine how serious he took play. He took play, yes, exactly, exactly. You know, I think also when you're trying to make something out of nothing, which is the place where I met Jeremy. We met at the Williamson Theatre Festival. We were both very young. How old were you guys?

Oh gosh, maybe 23 or so, without real access to an interior of a life in the theater or in cinema, we were hungry, we were wanting and striving. And that is hard and takes a lot of effort and also a lot of doggedness to keep at it. And I think sometimes that looks desperate or ungainly or... but we were working. And I think it's really inspiring to see the way that he's held on to that work ethic, even though he has now such great success in so many accolades. He's still working like banging on that door, just like when we were young. And I really admire that. Our guest today is award-winning actor Michelle Williams. Back after a short break. I'm Tonya

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Hear the whole country's story. Hear ways of thinking that challenge your own. Hear the bigger picture with NPR. Let's go back to the Dawson's Creek days, okay? So your breakout role was as Jen Lindley. She's this rebellious girl from New York City who goes to Capeside to live with her conservative grandmother. You were 16 years old, right? When that started? I was, yes. I was 16.

It just sounds like it was a big moment for you in understanding who you are and your taste. What was it about that experience that kind of was that flashpoint for you? Well, something that happened to me when I was making that show is that I met Mary Beth Peel who played my grams. And Mary Beth Peel is an esteemed, beloved New York stage actress. And she showed me plays. And then I started going up to New York City. I would get in my car in North Carolina, and I would drive 12 hours for the weekend.

By yourself? By myself. I would go see a movie and a play, and walk this little stretch of Sixth Avenue. And then I would get in my car and drive 12 hours home. And what I started seeing when I got to New York City were ideas of things that I would like to be a part of. And then I had this woman, Mary Beth,

who was encouraging me and saying that I should try and that she thought that I could. And that was at a time when nobody had ever said anything like that to me before, that I could be in movies or I could be in plays or I could make things that mattered to me. I had come from a very different environment. I'd been working on and off as an actor in Los Angeles.

I'd been working since I was 12. I was emancipated at 15 and living on my own for about, I don't know, half a year or something before I got Dawson's Creek. And so I was coming from Los Angeles and this sort of idea of, you know, if you can get a national commercial, it'll last you a year. And that's what I wanted for myself. If you could get on a TV show, that would, you could support yourself.

And that's what I wanted for myself. Or if you could get on a TV show that would, you could support yourself and that's what I wanted for myself. And then I went to New York City and I thought I was introduced to this whole other expression of the medium that I'd never been exposed to. I think growing up I'd just seen The Sound of Music and Mary Poppins and things like that. I didn't really know what was possible. Yeah. And then I started to make New York City home. I did my first play there when I was 18, and it became the place that I would spend the summers and the weekends and just kind of a place that I thought, oh, I could make a life for myself here. I need to back up, and I think why I sounded surprised when you said that Mary Beth opened up your ideas of what you could be, because to be emancipated at 15, and you did that so that you could be able to work, right, because child labor laws prevented you from

working unless you were on your own. Yes. That takes, it seems like a tremendous amount of self-assuredness. Like, who were you back then? Was that your idea? Was that your parents idea? It was really just something that was in the air at the time. It wasn't because I had some abiding passion or some noticeable talent at this thing. It was just something that other kids were doing. We were living in San Diego at that time, and so we would, or my parents and I would

come up for these auditions, but they were for commercials and infomercials and 10-second spots, 30-second spots. They were cattle calls. I don't know if they still call them that. I hope they don't. That was my concept of acting. Because you didn't go to formal school, of course, now you've lived the school of life like ten times over, right? But do you feel any insecurity about that or does that ever

come up for you where you're thinking about like this is a bit of knowledge that maybe if I had gone to school I would have known it? Oh all the time. I am constantly confronted by the things that I don't know and real gaps where information should be. Geography. Okay yeah. I could go on and on but I think maybe that's why work has become, you know, that's my conduit to the world. That's my, this is the thing that I've spent the most time trying to gain an understanding of and why it was so important to me because without it I really had nothing to show for myself. I had no institution behind me that said, I credit you in in this particular way. And so then where do you get a good feeling about yourself? So my work has meant so much to me because it's been, it was

where I got to know myself and I thought well maybe if I could get a little bit good at this thing I could get a little bit of that self-esteem. You know, one of my favorite movies that you mentioned of yours is Blue Valentine, for which you were nominated for an Academy Award. It stars you and Ryan Gosling. And just to set it up for folks who have not seen it, it's about the disintegration of a young couple's marriage. And it cuts between their early relationship, when everything was just beautiful and rosy to the painful unraveling years later. And you

describe this as one of the most painful and rewarding experiences of your life. It helped you get a sense of the kind of work you wanted to pursue. Can you say more about that? Yeah, I really burned for this one. I wanted this job so badly. I had read this script and made my case for it and my pleas to the director. And we went on walks and we exchanged books and music

and other things that we related through this piece of material. And I was just on fire to make this thing for two, three, four, five, six years. Six years, yeah. It was just all I could see was making this movie.

And then the process of making the movie was such a throwback to how I had read that people used to work and what an experience that was, you know, never before and never again. We had these immense rehearsal periods where we were not working on the specific scenes or the specific dialogue, but we were building a memory bank and building experiences as these characters. Okay, because the director, Derek Sandfrance,

he would have you guys just at lit in many instances. How would he do that? Give me an example. Oh, yeah, he organized our chaos. He would have us do these family tasks like do a budget, now decorate a Christmas tree, now take your daughter to an amusement park, now get into a fight about why the sink isn't fixed. So we were creating a shared experience. Because it's going into our bodies and our psyches, we're experiencing it as though it has happened to our characters.

And so then when it came time to shoot, the second half of the film, when they are older and cleaving from each other, we had the built-up frustration of trying to make something work and failing at it. I want to play a scene from Blue Valentine. In this clip, you and Ryan are near the end of your marriage, and you're both standing in the kitchen, and he is pleading for you to rethink leaving him to think about your young child and for listeners you're gonna hear a sound of like

banging and it's Ryan's character Dean banging against a wall. Let's listen. I can't do this anymore. Baby, you're just thinking about yourself. What about Frankie? You want her to grow up in a broken home? Is that what you want? I'm thinking about Frankie. You're not thinking about Frankie. You know you're not.

Is this how you want you to know it. Is this how you wanted to grow up? I don't want her to grow up in a home where her parents treated her like this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Baby, I'm sorry. I can't do this anymore. I know. Baby, I'm just fighting, you know, fighting for my family. I don't know what to do.

I don't know what else to do. Tell me what to do. Tell me what to do. Tell me how I should be. Just tell me. I'll do it. I'll do it. I don't know what to say. I'm so sorry. I don't know what else to do.

I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. We're not good together, we're not good anymore. The way that we treat each other. I can't stop. You can't stop. I can't stop. I don't know what else to do. I can't stop. No.

No. Come here no. No. Come here. Come here. Come here. Come here. Come here. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That was my guest today, Michelle Williams, along with Ryan Gosling and Blue Valentine. The cultural critic Hilton Ells said about you, I've heard this a couple of different times, but he says like, it's like you're the real person playing themselves in the, in a movie or a show. And I understand that because in the same way that I felt seeing you and dying for sex, I feel in Blue Valentine.

Like it feels so real and so raw. A lot of this film, as I mentioned, was just heavily ad-libbed. Well, tell me about this scene in particular. Mm. Yeah, I haven't revisited this film for so long, and it just makes me think, you know, there was a point in my life where I had lived more on-screen than off, when I had more experiences as a character than as a person. And so I think that work, characters, they became places where I could try to work out what's the truth of the situation, what's the truth between these two people. And that maybe if I could learn that through these sort of avatars, that I could take that into my personal relationships, that that these sort of avatars that I would could take that into my personal relationships,

that that would sort of teach me how to live, teach me how to be. Because what I saw when I started seeing these movies, these films, these TV shows, is that I saw so many different representations of how a human being can be and still be lovable and still be worthwhile and still have value and I thought oh this is different than from what life is telling me or let's say patriarchy is telling me and so I think that all of cinema and all of art maybe is is compassion and if I can become a part of this compassionate universe where characters are allowed to make mistakes and still be lovable maybe I can build a

compassionate future for myself where I can make mistakes and be lovable. This is so fascinating, Michelle, because what you're saying is your work is sort of instructive in your life versus the other way around. Like oftentimes it's lived experience, you bring that to the screen and that's why it feels so authentic. So how are you able to bring such an authentic experience to something like a marital strife unraveling? I mean I think they sort of go hand in hand and you just keep you keep growing as a person and then you put that into your work and then your work grows you in another direction and you take that back into your personhood. And I think that's why this can be truly a healing experience.

Has there ever been a case where you've played a character and then elements of that character you're like, I'm going to make this a part of who I am in my day to day life? I think so. I think you always want to take something and put it in your pocket. Yeah. Is there one you can think of in particular? I think of playing, like when I played Steven Spielberg's

mother, I think about her aura and her zest for to make the ordinary moments a little something extra to hang on to, her appreciation, her lustiness for the mountains, for the desert, for color, for her lipstick, for her children, for her lover, for everything. I think about that. Oh, I would love to be, I would love to bring that aspect out in myself so that my children experience that from their mom. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking to award-winning actor Michelle Williams. We're talking about her new limited series that she stars in called Dying for

Sex, back after a short break. This is Fresh Air. Another character that you played that I really enjoyed was Marilyn Monroe in My Week with Marilyn. And what I found so fascinating, you know, I was one of those kids just like you fascinated by Marilyn Monroe, how strong she was in her art, that was like where her strength came from, but how fragile she was at the same time. Were there any insights or aha moments you had about her and that sitting and embodying her? Because one of the other things about this role is that you had to

construct a Marilyn outside of the persona. Yeah, it was, boy oh boy, I was 30 when I made that movie and that was just the hardest thing I'd ever done. I think I cried every morning and every night. Why was it the hardest thing? Because I'd never tried anything so audacious and I'd never tried anything that was so far from my idea of myself. And I don't know how I was crazy enough to say yes to that.

Why was it crazy? Because I had zero evidence that it was something that I would be capable of. But again, I have this drive, and maybe it is because I lack formal education. I have this real need to learn new things. And so when I looked at that role, I thought, well, there's a lot of learning there. And I was right, because it landed me in London, and it landed me with these master teachers. And so it gave me this kind of crash course to a way of working that I hadn't experienced before, this physical reinvention. To have to learn how to completely remake my own body with my own habits and propensities and holdings, to let go of those and to allow a new structure

to emerge that was more similar to Marilyn. And that was very painful. It was like breaking me down bone by bone and then building me back up. What kind of stuff did you have to do? I mean, because you have to mentally get there, but physically get there too, right? Yeah, you have to mentally get there, right? Exactly, exactly. And you have to mentally get there, but physically get there too, right? Yeah, you have to mentally get there, right? Exactly, exactly. And you have to believe yourself there. And live in this very uncomfortable space for a very long period of time while you're learning these things, where you just don't have them and you can't do them,

but you have a start date for a movie that's telling you at a certain point you have to drop your pencil. And you have to just be ready. But you know her walk, her carriage with those shoulders that looked like water was falling off of them and you know as you can see me hunched over in front of you, that's not my resting state. But I was very lucky to be supported by a few teachers on that film who I think really set me off on a new path of yes, there's all this interior landscape because as I was growing up, I was reading all these books about the method and

Uta Hagen and this kind of more American way of working from the inside out. And then I was introduced to this perhaps more British way of working from the outside in. And so I was more British way of working from the outside in. And so I was compelled by what I was learning there and realizing how many more opportunities it would give me to become different people if I could deconstruct myself and then reconstruct in somebody else's image. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with award-winning actor Michelle Williams. We're talking about her new limited series that she stars in called Dying for Sex. Back after a short break, this is Fresh Air.

I want to ask you about a really big moment in 2019, your Emmy Award speech, when you won outstanding lead actress in a limited series for Fosse-Verdon. I want to play a little bit of it and then we'll talk about it briefly on the other side. Let's listen. I see this as an acknowledgement of what is possible when a woman is trusted to discern her own needs, feels safe enough to voice them and respected enough that they'll be heard. When I asked for more dance classes, I heard yes. More voice lessons, yes.

A different wig, a pair of fake teeth not made out of rubber, yes. And all of these things, they require effort and they cost more money, but my bosses never presume to know better than I did about what I needed in order to do my job and honor Gwen Verdon. So I want to say thank you so much to FX and to Fox 21 Studios for supporting me completely

and for paying me equally because they understood that when you put value into a person, it empowers that person to get in touch with their own inherent value and then where do they put that value? They put it into their work. And so the next time a woman, and especially a woman of color, because she stands to make 52 cents on the dollar compared to her white male counterpart, tells you what she needs in order to do her job, listen to her, believe her, because one day she might stand in front of it. Thank you. That was my guest, Michelle Williams, in 2019.

I still get chills when I hear it. You were so profound and clear-eyed. I always wondered, like, do you like practice the speech before you go up there? Because that's such a detailed speech. Thank you. I spent a long time working on it. I knew if given the opportunity, I knew what I wanted to say and that you have a very short time to say it, and so it needs to be as perfect as you can make it. And then underneath, my hands are like this, my heart is like this, and I was pregnant at the time. And so, you know, also experiencing that.

But I felt so connected in that moment to have had these experiences that allowed me to be the conduit for the message. These years later, do you feel feel how are you feeling in this moment as someone who you like spent your career really trying to show the inner like us as women, like you're trying to show the totality of us as human beings. And now we're in 2025. You're finding so much in your daughter Matilda, but then there's so much in the world that we're up against. Now, five years later, how are you six years later? What are you reflecting on when you hear that speech? We're not where I thought we would be. The opportunities of those moments of the Me Too movement of the Black Lives Matter movement. I hope that they are underground and that they will come back and that there will be a

resurgence of the optimism and the momentum that we were enjoying. Are you feeling optimistic? No, are you? I'm thinking about what you said about your daughter. I feel optimism when I look at my kids. Yeah, I feel optimistic about them. Yeah. I'm feel optimistic when I watch shows like Dying for Sex, which was hugely meaningful to me. And you said that like you take a piece of every project and character and you grow with it and it goes to the next thing for you. What are you taking away from dying for sex?

Pleasure, baby, pleasure. Get it. Get it. It belongs to you. And that humor is not a way to make a joke in a sad situation, that humor is a way to make something whole and complete and also a way to remember something better. You know, when we don't want to remember the sad times,

we want to remember the good times, the happy times. And so if you can find the, so a line from a poet that I like, the light underbelly of the dark, dark beast, you will be able to transport yourself back to those moments and relive them and be there with them. So the reclamation of humor especially in or the acknowledgement or the the insistence on Looking for it on finding it because it's there. It just needs to be found So the insistence on continuing to find the humor, but most of all the pleasure because they can't take that away from us Man, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here. Michelle Williams stars in the FX series, Dying for Sex, now streaming on Hulu. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, New York Times reporter Eric Lipton, on how the Trump family's business ventures

capitalize on the president's position and stand to directly benefit him. This includes foreign deals from luxury hotels in Dubai and Serbia to the Trump cryptocurrency company. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challener, Susan Yacundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesbur. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.