Fresh Air - Novelist John Green On The 'Invasive Weed' Of OCD

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

Green's YA novel, Turtles All the Way Down, has been recently adapted to film (on MAX May 2). Green described living with OCD, and how "one little thought" could take over his mind, in this 2017 interview with Terry Gross. Also, Justin Chang reviews Challengers, starring Zendaya and directed by Luca Guadagnino.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is Fresh Air. I'm David Bianculli. Today, we feature our interview with the writer John Green. He has a huge following, mostly among teenagers who are fans of his young adult novels. His best-selling 2017 novel, Turtles All the Way Down, has been adapted into a new film. It premieres on the streaming service Max next week. Green's previous young adult novel, The Fault in Our Stars, sold over 23 million copies, was on the bestseller list for 24 weeks, and also was adapted into a film. His young adult novels wrestle with the kind of issues you'd expect from someone like Green, who had considered joining the

seminary and worked at a children's hospital as a student chaplain. The Fault in Our Stars is about two teenagers with cancer who fall in love. Turtles All the Way Down is about a 16-year-old named Aza who's still getting over the death of her father. She's also dealing with OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder, which leads to intrusive thoughts that get in the way of her day-to-day life. Her thoughts also interfere with her relationship with her best friend and with her ability to have a boyfriend. Her obsession is with all the microorganisms that live on and in her body, and her fear that she will become infected with a deadly bacteria. Here's a clip from the new film, in which Cree Cucino, as Aza's best friend Daisy, is trying to convince Aza, played by Isabella Merced, that it's safe to kiss her boyfriend.

You know what? I bet that if you guys actually kissed, you would not be thinking about 80 million microbes. Ooh. What if his microbes are better than yours? Right? Like, maybe if you guys made out, you'd get healthier. Maybe. What if you got superpowers from his microbes? Yes. Oh my god. She was a normal girl until she kissed a billionaire, and then she became micro Bianca, queen of the micro. John Green drew on his own experiences with OCD, which he's dealt with since childhood. Terry Gross spoke with John Green in 2017 when Turtles All the Way Down first was published. John Green, welcome to Fresh Air. I'd like you to start by reading from your new book. But first, since her obsession is fear of getting C. difficile, aka C. diff, why don't you describe what this really horrendous disease is? associated with antibiotic use in hospitals. And it basically, there's this bacteria in your gut,

and if it grows out of control, you can become very, very sick. And this is something that Aza worries about all the time. And she uses kind of compulsive behaviors, including checking the internet for symptoms to try to manage this worry that she has. And just to get a little bit more graphic, I mean, C. diff leads to really extreme diarrhea. And in some people, particularly in elderly people, you can die if it's not treated. So it's a very serious and a very problematic infection. And you're also going to refer in the reading I'm about to ask you to do to the microbiome, which is the collection of bacteria and microorganisms in the gut. And so the goal is to always have a healthy microbiome.

Yeah. I mean, one of the really weird things about being a person is that about half of the cells inside of your body are not yours. They're microbes. And that's also something that is of some concern to Asa, and for that matter, to me. Oh, I know. It's a remarkable thing when you think about how your whole body, your skin, your gut, everything is just like populated with these microorganisms, which is scientifically fascinating. But the more you think about it, the kind of creepier it is.

And for her, it's more than creepy. It's disturbing. It's very deeply disturbing. So I want you to do a reading. And this is from like a little more than midway through the book. And she has been friends with and is kind of starting to become girlfriend, boyfriend with a teenage boy. They're starting to kiss a little bit. And because of this whole microbiome thing, it's making her really uncomfortable. And some of what we're going to be hearing is her intrusive OCD, her obsessive compulsive thoughts, interfering with the rest of her thoughts. So some of what you're saying is written in italics and all the italicized

parts are those intrusive thoughts interfering in her mind. Okay, would you do the reading? I told myself to be in this moment, to let myself feel his warmth on my skin, but now his tongue was on my neck, wet and alive and microbial, and his hand was sneaking under my jacket, his cold fingers against my bare skin. It's fine. You're fine. Just kiss him. You need to check something. It's fine. Just be normal. Check to see if his microbes stay in you. Billions of people kiss and don't die. Just make sure his microbes aren't going to permanently colonize you. Come on, please, stop this. He could have campylobacter. He could have non-symptomatic

E. coli that you could get, and then you'll need antibiotics, and then you'll get C. diff, and boom, dead in four days. Please just stop. Just check. Make sure. I pulled away. You okay? He asked. I nodded. I just need a little air. I sat up, turned away from him, pulled out my phone, and searched, Do bacteria of people you kiss stay inside your body? and quickly scrolled through a couple pseudoscience results before getting to the one actual study done on the subject. Around 80 million microbes are exchanged on average per kiss, and quote, after six-month follow-up,

human gut microbiomes appear to be modestly but consistently altered. His bacteria would be in me forever. Eighty million of them, breeding and growing and joining my bacteria and producing God knows what. I felt his hand on my shoulder. I spun around and squirmed away from him, my breath running away from me, dots in my vision. You're fine. He's not even the first boy you've kissed. 80 million organisms in you forever. Calm down. Permanently altering the microbiome. This is not rational. You need to do something. Please, there is a fix. Please get to a

bathroom. What's wrong? He asked. Uh, nothing, I said. I, um, just need to use the restroom. I pulled my phone back out to reread the study, but resisted the urge, clicked it shut, and slid it back into my pocket. But no, I had to check to see if it had said modestly altered or moderately altered. I pulled out my phone again and brought up the study. Modestly. Okay. Modestly is better than moderately. But consistently. I felt nauseated and disgusting, but also pathetic. I knew how I looked to him. I knew that my crazy was no longer a quirk. Now it was an irritation,

like it was to anyone who got close to me. Thank you for reading that. That's John Green reading from his new novel, which is called Turtles All the Way Down. So of all the obsessive compulsive thoughts you could have given your main character, Asa, why did you give her this obsession with C. Diff? Well, partly because I can relate to it. I mean, I needed a place where I could make a connection with Asa in order to write about her, I think. And I've long had a fear of contamination from microorganisms. That's long been one of the kind of focuses of my particular version of obsessive compulsive disorder. And so I think that was partly it, but also it's something that we live with all the time. It's something that surrounds us, you know, like, in a way,

bacteria are overwhelming us. We are the dominant species on the planet, until and unless you start considering bacteria. So one of the things that she has are these thought spirals. I'm going to ask you to describe a thought spiral. Well, the thing about a spiral is that if you follow it inward, it just keeps going forever. It just gets tighter and tighter and it never actually ends. And that's kind of how Aza experiences her thoughts when she gets stuck into this kind of looping, turning, twisting series of thoughts about how she's definitely going to get C. diff and she's definitely going to die. And then she has to use these behaviors that she's definitely going to get C. diff and she's definitely going to die.

And then she has to use these behaviors that she's developed to try to manage that fear. And there really is no way for her to pull out of the thought spiral. And that's part of what makes it so frightening to her is that once she's in it, it doesn't feel like a thought spiral. It just feels like thought. It just feels like the way of the world. It feels like she's not wrong when she's afraid of this infection or the other things that she fears. And that's really terrifying. It's also really isolating for her because she struggles to be able to describe it with language. She struggles for the words that would help other people understand

what she's going through. She uses the word invasives to describe the kind of thoughts that you can't control and that take over. Is that your word or did you get that from therapy? I think it's my word. When I was first told about OCD, I was told that these thoughts are called intrusives, but I actually heard the word invasives for some reason. And that is what it's like for me. It's like there's an invasive weed that just spreads out of control. You know, it starts out with one little thought and then slowly that becomes the only thought that you're able to have. The thought that you're constantly either forced to have or trying desperately to distract yourself from.

So at what point did you decide that you would write a novel with a main character who has, as you do, obsessive compulsive disorder? In some ways, the choice was made for me because I couldn't write about anything else. I tried to write a few other novels after The Fault in Our Stars came out, and I ended up having to abandon them. And then eventually I got really sick, and coming out of that period of being really unwell— OCD sick? Yeah, yeah.

I just had a really poor period of mental health where, for a few months, I wasn't able to feel like I was in any control over what I was thinking about. And coming out of that period, this was kind of the only thing that I felt like I could write about. And so that became the story that I ended up writing. So you've said that you have OCD. Tell us more about what form it has taken in your life. Well, I guess the sort of dominant form that it's taken in my life is that I get worried, I get afraid of having an illness or having some kind of contamination inside of my body. And then I become unable to stop thinking about that. And the worry begins to consume me. And, you know, in the face of that, you develop, or I have developed compulsive behaviors to try to manage that and deal with that. But for me, it starts, there's a

reason the O comes first in OCD. Like in the popular imagination, we always see people doing their compulsive behaviors because they're so visual and they're so often so strange and eccentric. But for me, it's the problem of my thoughts that is the problem. The compulsive behaviors are a way of trying to manage the kind of overwhelming fear that the obsessiveness causes me. So what are the things you're most afraid of contaminating you? I mean, there's a real, yeah, I'm being super intentional about not saying that. Oh, okay, okay. So, yeah, that's the thing.

That's fine. I don't want to. Yeah, that's the only thing that I can't. I can't talk directly about it because I get squirmy. You get what? Squirmy?

Yeah. Would it be awkward, too, for us all to know, like, say we met you in person sometime, would it be awkward for you to have everybody know what that most vulnerable point was? Yes. Yeah, understandable. Yeah, that's why. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So in the novel, there's a physical manifestation as well as obsessive compulsive thoughts. The physical manifestation has to deal with digging the fingernail of one finger into the finger pad of another. Would you describe that physical manifestation of OCD? Yeah. So one of the ways, she's been doing this since she was a little kid, and she just digs her thumbnail into her finger pad. Initially, it was a way she would ask her mom, why do I know that I'm real? How do I know that i'm really real and and her mom would say well if you pinch yourself you know it's not a dream and so it began as that it began as a way of feeling real um but over the years it became kind of a locus of um of her

obsession as well and so this callus has developed on her finger pad. And now it's really easy for her to open up, to crack open that callus. And she gets worried that there's an infection underneath that callus. She covers it up with a bandaid because she's very embarrassed about it. But she often has to kind of open that up and try to drain the wound because she's worried that there's an infection there. Of course, the more she does, the more she risks infection. Of course, yeah. I mean, this is not uncommon. These are not rational behaviors. So, you know, I find that like trying to apply logic, at least in my own life, like trying to apply logic to it is fairly ineffective. So have you had a physical manifestation like that too?

Yeah, not exactly that. But I count on my fingers as a way of calming myself. And so I think that's probably why I started thinking about it. And then I like the idea that, you know, it's literally affecting her fingerprint. You know, it's affecting who she is in a pretty profound way. For Asa, your main character, the OCD leads to a form of self-obsession, which makes her self-absorbed and not tuned in to other people. And her best friend calls her out for it.

Her best friend basically says, you probably don't even, you know, she lists things that she assumes Asa doesn't even know about her because she's so absorbed with herself. Was there a point in your life where you felt that your OCD was actually making you self-absorbed in a way that you didn't want to be, that you were neglecting other people, that you were losing a sense of empathy because you were looking within so much? It has definitely affected my real-life relationships over the years in profound ways. I also wanted Aza to struggle with her ability to observe the world outside of herself, because I think that is true to my experience. And it is not true to the kind of narrative of the obsessive detective that we have in the popular imagination. Obsessiveness is often

linked to this like genius of observation that just is not my experience at all. Like I find that my OCD makes me a terrible detective. Because you're focused on the wrong thing obsessively. Yeah, because I can't notice the world outside of myself in the way that I want to because I'm so deeply and irrationally focused on stuff that's happening kind of within me. So the characters in your new book are also dealing with the deaths of parents. And in The Fault in Our Stars, the two main characters are dealing with cancer that is likely to be terminal. So, you know, death plays like a major role in your books. And

I'd be interested in hearing why. Well, I think it's a big problem. It's a big question. And one of the things I like about teenagers is that they're looking, I mean, it's a big theme. It's a problem. Right, yeah, I mean, I'm concerned about it. That's probably one of the reasons.

But also, one of the things I like about teen characters is that they're grappling with the kind of questions around death and the problems that death creates for the first time, sort of separate from their parents. And so they're asking, you know, is there an afterlife and what are the implications for what we think about the afterlife? And they're asking, like, is meaning in human life changed by the fact of death? And I'm still really interested in those questions, and I like the way they approach them. Like, there's a lack of irony and a passion for those questions that I found really appealing when I was a teenager and that I still find really appealing. When was the first time you dealt with the death of somebody who you knew? When I was in high school, a classmate of mine died,

and I went to a very small school, and it was devastating to the whole school. How did the classmate die? She was in a car accident. What was your way of talking to your friends about it in order to get through it? Do you remember any of those conversations in which you tried to talk through not only the loss that you were experiencing, but also like, why do these things happen?

Yeah, I mean, I think when you're in that position, those questions about meaning in life and what meaning you're going to find in life, they stop being rhetorical questions and they become matters of life and death. They become the questions that you need answers to if you're going to figure out how to go on. And, um, and so we had a lot of those conversations, you know, we had a lot of conversations where we were looking for meaning in life that could hold up against, um, against reality as, as we found it. And I've never found a lot of comfort in the straightforward answers to those questions that like everything happens for a reason or that sort of answer. And I think that did start in high school and it did start with those conversations with my friends.

Was there any kind of like religious service that provided answers that you either found comforting or, you know, just like bromides that were not helpful? There were a lot of bromides that weren't helpful. I mean, I'm Episcopalian, and I worked briefly as a student chaplain at a children's hospital. You know, I thought about going to divinity school. Religion has been part of my life for a long time. But at the same time, I don't, I don't find the answers to those questions in my religious tradition, to be honest with you. Or at least not answers that satisfy me. I don't, I don't find a satisfactory answer for, you know, the problem of theodicy, as they call it in the world of religious studies, like the problem of evil in the world. I don't have a good answer for why there is so much deep, profound injustice in the world and why, you know, the world behaves as if it were random. So if it isn't random, it's behaving as if it were.

Are you still Episcopalian? And if so, what do you find in your spiritual tradition? I like going to church. I don't know that much about why, but yeah, I'm still Episcopalian. And I do find, and I like the outward focus of it. I like turning outward for an hour each week, and I like the focus on service and, you know, the activism. Those parts of my church are really important to me. Writer John Green speaking to Terry Gross in 2017. After a break, we'll continue their conversation. And film critic Justin Chang reviews the new film Challengers, set in the world of tennis. I'm David Bean Cooley, and this is Fresh Air. You know, as I mentioned in your last two novels, teenagers are dealing with death, death of their parents or the possibility of their own

death because they have cancer. So you spent some time working as an assistant chaplain at a children's hospital? Is that what you said? Yeah, a student chaplain, I think, is the technical term, but either way. So what were you exposed to there? You know, you're with people on the worst day of their lives. And people who work in children's hospitals for longer than the few months that I was there are real heroes to me because it, you, you see the worst things that can happen to, to people, um, every day. And it's, uh, it was, it was incredible. It was really

difficult for me. I was not, um, I, I, you know, I, I couldn't do that work. Um, I couldn't, I couldn't let it go. I still can't let it go 15 years later. And, um, it was, it was very, it was very hard. Were you mostly, were you mostly talking with the parents or the children? Uh, mostly with the parents, but I, but I did hang out a lot with some teenagers who were sort of there long term for various chronic health problems, mostly playing video games, to be honest. I was 22 at the time. That's really helpful. Yeah. And so if somebody had an Xbox, I would play video games with them. Did it feel awkward to be 22 and trying to help parents through a period when their child was, you know, dying or possibly dying?

Did you feel like, who am I to help them? I'm 22. Yeah, of course I did. Yeah. I felt I felt unqualified in every possible way. But, you know, interestingly, I'm now 40 and I think I would still feel unqualified in every possible way. And if anything, I just think that I would identify more and it would be even more difficult for me to, you know, to be there for people in the way that they need when they're in that situation. Because you're a father now? Yeah. Are you surprised that so many teenagers want to read stories about teenagers who have the kind of problems that make you feel different from everyone else, like OCD, or like having lost a parent who died, or like having cancer and maybe dying yourself. I mean, so many teenagers are just absorbed with, you know, school, finding a new boyfriend or girlfriend, just like having friends, figuring out how to make your way without being bullied or hated by other kids. But I mean, you're dealing with really

major problems in your book, not to make light of those other problems, because when you're a teenager, those other problems are really big. Right. No, I think that's actually the answer, though, is that when you're a teenager, no matter what your experience is, the problems are big. And they're, in many cases, new. In many cases, it's the first time you've had this problem. So, you know, when I fell in love with my wife, you know, we have a great, awesome marriage, but I was also like, this is like the other times I fell in love. Like, I understood what was happening to me. But when I fell in love for the first time, I think, is part of what makes them connect to people who feel, who are going through really unusual experiences. Do you remember your first girlfriend, your first crush, and can you and I wore like matching OP like shorts and a shirt to ask her to go with me, which was the parlance of the day. And I remember like, you know, just feeling so incredibly nervous as if the stakes were actually high and I wasn't nine years old and asking her to go with me. And she said yes. And I was like,

this is like, this is incredible. But then I had no idea like what the next step was, you know, like I had no idea, like, how do we proceed from here? So we eventually exchanged phone numbers and had a few phone conversations over the next few weeks. And then I don't think there was ever an official breakup. I think it just was sort of understood that this wasn't going to end in marriage. Did you tell your parents? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I definitely told my parents. I was like, I have a girlfriend. And they were like, why?

Did you kiss? No, no. No, I don't even think we held hands, actually. So what did it mean to have a girlfriend? Nothing. I mean, yeah, I think it must have been born from the stories I was reading. Like, I was really into, like, series books like Sweet Valley High and The Babysitter's Club. And so it must have come from those stories that, like, this is what you do. And I was like, all right, I'll give it a try. Do you remember the first time you fell in love for real?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was in college. Did the OCD get in the way of that? It got in the way of it in the sense that it's really difficult, I think, for anyone who is close to someone who's in terrible psychic pain to be near that pain for a lot of reasons. One, you want to take it away. Two, it's just difficult. And so it was a problem, especially we dated for a few years, and I think it was a problem, especially at the end of our relationship, because I would lose a lot of myself, my ability to pay attention to the world outside of myself, to these thought spirals, and I wouldn't be able to pull myself out of it enough

to be a good partner or to be a good friend even. And that was definitely a problem. Writer John Green speaking to Terry Gross in 2017. More after a break. This is Fresh Air. The Fault in Our Stars, the one where it's written from the point of view of a teenage girl who has stage four, I think, cancer. So my understanding is that's based in part on one of your fans who actually was dying of cancer. Yeah, my friend Esther Earl, she died of cancer in 2010

when she was 16. And she was a really involved member of the community that grew up around the videos that my brother and I made, and was really involved in our charity projects and became a friend of mine. And yeah, and she died in 2010. And I kind of wrote The Fault in Our Stars, mostly in the two years after her death. What were some of the things you took away from her life and death that you put in the book? Esther was just uncommonly empathetic. I don't know that that was because she was sick. I think it was partly because she was, you know, some people are just extraordinary. She was incredibly, in the same way that Aza can't pay attention to the world outside of herself, Esther was extremely tuned in to the world outside of herself.

You know, the other question, I guess, that emerged for me in the wake of Esther's death was whether a short life can still be a good and a fulfilling life. And I needed to feel like it could be. I needed to feel like Esther had had a good life. And I wrote the book in some ways, I think, in that hope, almost like a prayer that a short life can still be a good life. Did writing the book convince you? That's a good question.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know that writing the book convinced me, but I do believe that. You have two children. Is your point of view when you're writing shifting a little bit from the teenager to the parent? I mean, the parent in the new novel is very, I find her a very sympathetic character. I mean, she clearly, like, loves her daughter so much

and is trying so hard not to be the intrusive parent, you know, to have the right amount of connection and distance. But, you know, it's always hard to of connection and distance. But, you know, it's always hard to find. And as Asa says to her at one point, Asa says to her mother, I'm doing my best, but I can't stay sane for you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think as parents, we desperately want to take pain away from our kids. And we want to, I want to save my kids from all the hurt that the world has in it. And you can't, and there's so, that's so difficult. It's so hard to reconcile yourself to, to that. I do think that I have become much more interested in parents as characters since

I became a parent. Like I used to shuffle all the adults out of my books as quickly as possible. And now I'm like, hold on a second, let's listen to your mother first. Your mother might have a point here. And I do think that is probably a result of this change in my life that has caused me to suddenly be tremendously sympathetic to the parental point of view. And your kids aren't even teenagers yet. No, God, no, they're seven and four. So I have a long way to go. I kept thinking about the parent in the book because Asa's father died years ago. And so

Asa's mother is a widow, and now she's worried she's going to lose her daughter to mental illness or lose her to other problems. I'm trying not to give too much away here. Yeah. So, and I really just kind of sympathized with her and admired how hard she was trying to have the right amount of connection with her daughter without being too pushy or smothering her or being overprotective. Yeah, it's really hard. I think it's so, you know, parenting a teenager, I can only imagine how hard it is. The great thing about having little kids is that at least you can solve their problems. You know, at least you know how to change a diaper. It's really, really hard. And in many cases, you can't solve the problems of your teenage kids. And that's

something that I think Aza's mom is having to learn and accept, but it's so difficult because, you know, also I think her daughter's in terrible pain. And, you know, when you see someone you love in pain, you feel it too. I want to quote something that Aza, your teenage character, says in the book or thinks in the book. I hated my body. It disgusted me. It's hair. It's pinpricks of sweat. It's scrawniness. Skin pulled over a skeleton, an animated corpse. I wanted out, out of my body, out of my thoughts, out. But I was stuck inside of this thing, like all the bacteria colonizing me. Is this a feeling you understand of like hating your body and feeling kind of disgusted by it?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, for much of my life, I felt like I had to carry around this skin-encased bacterial colony in order to have a mind and a consciousness, you know. And also I've often felt like my body is trying to control my consciousness or dictating what I can think about or what I can feel. And that feels really frustrating. I have to say that in the last few years, I've come around to the body a little bit, partly through exercise, partly through cognitive behavioral therapy techniques. And I don't see my body anymore as the opposite of me. But I do still feel at times frustrated by the fact that I'm stuck inside of just this one vessel, you know? So I don't know. I'm grateful. I'm very grateful for my body now. But at the same time, I do rather wish that, you know, like it could go on forever and never hurt.

Sure. And there's times you probably want to trade in your brain also, right? Absolutely. Yeah. No, I mean, there's probably more times when I want to trade in my brain. Yeah, to be completely honest, like it'd be great to be able to like turn my brain into the mechanic and like have them just like fix some stuff up and then give it back to me. That would be great. So I read that you said you were bullied when you were in, I don't know, junior high or high school. Anything in particular you were bullied for, you know, that you were mocked for? I mean, I don't really know. They don't seem to need a great reason.

They don't tell you as they're reading you up? Right. Yeah. It wasn't, that would have been nice though, if they could have like sent a note that just explained like, here are the three things you're being bullied for. If you could work on these three things, then we'll stop. I think I was different. I was very nerdy. I struggled socially, partly because I was at times kind of an annoying kid because I was, you know, a little obsessive and perpetually nervous. But none of that justifies the bullying that that happened. It was yeah, it was it was difficult. And the middle school years especially were extremely difficult for me. And I did have friends and I was very grateful for those friends, but the bullying was scary and difficult.

Did you fight back? No. This is going to surprise you, Terry, but I'm not really super able to fight back. I never would have expected that. Yeah. I'm not a boxer. And when did you realize you wanted to write? Well, I always liked writing, but I thought of it like being an astronaut or being a professional athlete or something. I never thought of it as a realistic career goal. And in some ways, I still have a day job. And I like having a day job. I like going into the office in the afternoon and working on the online video stuff that we make. But after I decided not to go to divinity school,

I started working at this magazine called Booklist. I was a assistant there, mostly doing data entry. But Booklist reviews like 400 books every two weeks. And, you know, all those books were written by somebody. And so that's when I started to feel like, well, maybe. But were they read by anybody is the question. Yeah, not all of them, certainly. But that's when I started to feel like, okay, well, being, it's not quite like being a professional athlete or being an astronaut. Like, this is something that regular people do. Lots of people write books.

And that's when I started to feel like maybe I could write a book. And at that same time, I started reading a lot of young adult books. And I really loved them. And I thought, well, that would be a great place. Like that would be such a cool place to publish. And so when I was writing my first novel, I was kind of hoping that that's where it would end up. And it did. Why were you starting to read a lot of young adult books then? I think partly because I was the youngest person at Booklist. So I was the closest thing they had to a young adult. Oh, they asked you to read the young adult books. Yeah, but I also think...

So you were reviewing young adult fiction and then decided you wanted to write it too. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Why did that seem like a good fit? Well, I mean, there are a bunch of reasons, I think. I like the way that young adult books are published. I like that science fiction and mystery and romance all live on the shelf together. You know, that the genre separations that you see in books for grownups aren't there in the same way. Also, YA books tend to hang around because of support from librarians and teachers, and that was really appealing to me.

But in terms of character and readers, it's a privilege to have a seat at the table in somebody's life when they're forming their values. And that's, for me, what my experience was as a teen reader. And I hope that my books can be part of that conversation for teen readers today. John Green, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. John Green speaking to Terry Gross in 2017. His best-selling young adult novel, Turtles All the Way Down, has been made into a film, which premieres May 2nd on the streaming service Max. Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews the new movie Challengers, set in the world of tennis.

This is Fresh Air. The comedy-drama Challengers stars Zendaya, Josh O'Connor, and Mike Feist as tennis players caught up in a romantic triangle that spans 13 years. The movie, which opens in theaters this week, is the latest from the Italian director Luca Guadagnino, known for films like Call Me By Your Name and Bones and All. Our film critic, Justin Chang, has this review. As much as I liked his Suspiria remake and his cannibal thriller Bones and All, it's nice to see the Italian director Luca Guadagnino make a movie that doesn't end with buckets of blood. His new sports movie, Challengers, instead comes drenched in buckets of sweat, and it's the most purely entertaining thing he's made in years. It gives us a romantic triangle set in the world of tennis, and it stars three superb actors in roles that are as athletically demanding as they are emotionally rich. It begins on a tennis court in New Rochelle, a town just north of New York

City, the site of a prestigious second-tier competition known as a Challenger Tournament. On one side of the net is Art Donaldson, played by Mike Feist. Art has won three of the four Grand Slam events, but has now hit a bit of a slump. He's squaring off against his former best friend Patrick Zweig, played by Josh O'Connor. Patrick hasn't had as illustrious a career as Art, but he may well be the more gifted player. Watching them anxiously from the stands is Art's wife and coach, Tashi Duncan, played by Zendaya. It's clear that these three characters have some complicated history, which Guadagnino and the screenwriter, Justin Kuritskis, proceed to unravel through a dizzying array of flashbacks.

And so we jump back 13 years, to when Art and Patrick are buddies and doubles partners. Around this time, they meet Tashi, a terrific tennis player who's about to begin her first year at Stanford. The boys begin a friendly competition for Tashi's affections, which the more confident Patrick initially wins. But after various ups and downs, including a twist that derails Tashi's tennis career, she winds up marrying Art and becoming his coach. Now, years later, this fateful challenger tournament has brought the estranged Art and Patrick face-to-face once more. It's here that Patrick privately confronts Tashi and makes a startling proposition. I want you to be my coach. What?

Even if he wins the Open, completes his career Grand Slam, What? Even if he wins the Open, completes his career Grand Slam, Art's still going to retire as someone who's just really, really good. That's what you guys would have done together. But imagine if you could turn Patrick Zavai into a guy who wins a Slam. You still have a season. You still have one good season, and I need you to bring it out of me. So, what do you think?

How the f*** dare you? You want my best piece of advice for you? You want me to cut you? Okay, quit. Even when all the toggling between past and present gets a little repetitive, Challengers throws off an unstoppable energy. In the tennis scenes, the camera seems to be everywhere at once, and a hypnotic techno score by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross pulses and surges beneath the action. And like Guadagnino's Call Me By Your Name, Challengers has a forthright sensuality that reminds you how sexually timid most mainstream American movies are by comparison. There isn't all that much sex in the film, but there's so much erotic tension and atmosphere that it doesn't matter. Guadagnino is a master of the tease, and so, it turns out, is Tashi.

In one early, flirty scene with the three of them, Tashi not only maintains the upper hand, but also reveals that these two dudes might be more attracted to each other than they let on. As the years pass, though, their youthful desire for Tashi gives way to a deeper need. As art, Feist shows as much live-wire physicality here as he did in the West Side Story remake, though his performance becomes more melancholy over time as art faces his limitations. O'Connor, by contrast, is all swagger as Patrick, forever leading with his devilishly charming smile. And then there's Zendaya, who's so brilliant in her early tennis scenes that I wish Tashi hadn't been sidelined and forced into playing the role of mentor and muse to two men. But as in the recent Dune Part 2, Zendaya keeps you watching with her mix of fierce intelligence and emotional uncertainty

over who will win the match and what it might mean for her future. Will Tashi stick with Art, the safe, skillful player who may not have the gumption to be one of the all-time greats? Or will she return to Patrick, the superior but more volatile talent? The movie resolves this quandary in a grand finale that's at once thrilling and maddening in the way it pushes this triangle and this tennis match to the breaking point. But by then, you can't blame Guadagnino for loving his characters so passionately or feeling so reluctant to let them go. If it were up to him, the game would never end.

Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed Challengers. On Monday's show, Jon Bon Jovi. He's sung his big anthems in stadiums around the world, but a couple of years ago he stopped performing because of vocal problems. He'll talk about the surgery that's enabled him to record again, and he'll look back on his career. A Bon Jovi documentary series is streaming on Hulu. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld, and Deanna Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Sallet, Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Joel Wolfram.

Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Biancullo. This message comes from Grammarly. Back and forth communication at work is costly. That's why over 70,000 teams and 30 million people use Grammarly's AI to make their points clear the first time. Better writing, better results. Learn more at grammarly.com slash enterprise.