Fresh Air - Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself

Episode Date: January 22, 2025

Pamela Anderson's role as a lifeguard on Baywatch made her a global sex symbol in the '90s. But she longed to be taken seriously as a performer and person. "I've always been carrying this secret. I feel like I've known I was capable of more, but I didn't know what," she says. She now stars in The Last Showgirl. She spoke with Tonya Mosley about her career comeback, crafting her persona, and ditching makeup.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is Fresh Air, I'm Tanya Mosley, and my guest today is Pamela Anderson. She stars in the new film The Last Showgirl, where she plays Shelley, a veteran performer from Las Vegas who learns that her show is shutting down after a 30-year run. At 57, Shelley must grapple with the sacrifices she's made in her personal life for the benefit of her career, including her relationship with her daughter, played by Billie Lourd. The Last Showgirl was directed by Gia Coppola

and also stars Jamie Lee Curtis, who is almost unrecognizable as a former showgirl and Shelly's best friend. Pamela Anderson became a pop culture phenomenon in the 1980s and 90s. The blockbuster television series Baywatch made her a household name, and the show itself was at one time the most watched series in the world with over a billion

viewers each week, making Anderson the highest paid actress on television at the time. International distributors of the show even enacted a Pamela clause in their contracts agreeing to purchase only episodes that she was in. But throughout the 2000s, Anderson struggled to make a name for herself outside of that 90s persona until the opportunity for reinvention came with her Broadway debut in 2022 as Roxie Hart in Chicago and the Netflix documentary, Pamela, A Love Story, which is a tender and intimate portrait of

her life produced by her son Brandon. Pamela Anderson, welcome to Fresh Air. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Oh, thank you. It's lovely to be here. You know, Pamela, I'm so fascinated by your journey over the last few years because before this role in The Last Showgirl was presented to you, I read that you had all but moved on from Hollywood. You actually looked at this script though

and you said, I'm the only one that can do this. What was it about this script that made you just know? I mean, it was a beautiful story. It had a wonderful character to play and I just related on many levels. You know, there's many parallels between us, but I also felt like that was a great jumping off point that I could take this opportunity and really transform into this woman. And I was craving to do something like this. I really needed to sink my teeth into something and it came at the right time.

And I realized if I had any other life, I couldn't have played Shelley as I did. And it all made sense. I had somewhere to put my all my life experience in one way or another. It's in there. Yeah. And we're going to talk about those parallels, but your character, Shelley, is part of this Vegas show called Larazel Dazzle, which actually is based on this Vegas show called La Razzle Dazzle, which actually is based on this real show that was in Vegas for many decades called Jubilee.

How would you describe that show? I mean, I met with the Jubilee dancers and they took so much pride in their art form. I love the nostalgia that Shelly always comes back to, that it's about France, you know, it's Leto culture, it's important. They were treated like movie stars. They are the icon of Las Vegas even though they don't really exist anymore. It was sad to know that there were 85 women on stage and 45 crew members and about 15 people in the audience at the very end, that it was just something that died out and lost to a new culture of, you know, like

the dirty circus, she likes to say, that it took more to entertain. And so these art forms die out and it's about the people that have given their lives to these art forms that are suffering and coming to a crossroads and having to reinvent themselves. And that really resonated with me, I think it's a story about second chances and about the mother-daughter story and trying to find a way to parent as a single mother

in an entertainment industry, of course, is another part that I could really relate to and was really interested in dealing with in a film. In hindsight, there's so much to this film that I felt was cathartic in some ways. Yeah. You mentioned you met with those original show girls. What did they teach you about their experiences? What were some of the stories that they shared with you

that really stuck with you as you embodied this character? Well, there was a lot of joy, a lot of pride, and you know, this is the showgirl walk. You know, the showgirls are not burlesque dancers. They're very far from it. They told me stories of how they weren't allowed to mingle in the casinos after their performances, that they were to go home and that they were very well protected by people that looked

after them. There were a lot of rules just to keep them safe. And that they went on to be in real estate or dance instructors or insurance salesmen, saleswomen, or it was just very, I wanted to know what happened after. And a lot of them got married and reconnected with their children. They had children while they were working.

And like that scene with Billy, I always say we are gonna have to beg forgiveness to our adult children, all of us. There's just no perfect way to do it and no perfect way to be a parent. And when our adult children, we can actually sit down with them and talk to them about their experience. I think that's a really important conversation.

And it doesn't always go well for either party, but it's a start. And I think it's something anybody can relate to in any business. That vision of who these women could become after this show was over is really like at the heart of this story because we're watching as your character really comes to grips with the fact that it's the end. As you said she's so proud of her, just like the real women that you met with. She talks about, like, she makes a point, for instance, that these costumes were designed by Bob Mackie. What they're doing is really highbrow.

And it was like the hot ticket on the Vegas Strip when she performed in front of sold-out crowds. Times have changed, though, and I want to play a pivotal scene that really speaks to this. Your character is having dinner with some of the other dancers when the producer of the show, Eddie, who is played by Dave Bautista, breaks the news that the show is closing and will be replaced

by this burlesque circus show. Let's listen. Tell me what she said. She said the new casino owners want to put their own stamp on the place. show. Let s***. And also, no, you did not. Yeah, I did. You guys, wait. You guys, our show is legendary. It is, but...

You know, razzle-dazzle, it's old. It's the last show of its kind on the strip. You know, that's what makes it so special, the fact that it's the last one. It's a show. It's costumes. It's costumes. It's sets. Look, it is a dinosaur, Shelley.

I think we're getting notice tomorrow. Are you kidding? You heard this from Muffy? Yeah. Oh. What is wrong with you? That was from the new movie, The Last Showgirl. That was Jamie Lee Curtis responding to your character, Pamela. And there's the moment where she has to, she's forced to think about who she will be after the show is over,

after this thing that is defined, her life is gone. You mentioned how there are parallels to your life. Your life is not exact to this character, but the defining of who you really are is something you've had to do because for so long you were enshrined in the 90s, the Playboy, the Baywatch Pamela. So much so that this person who was kind of representing you, I guess they were an agent,

didn't even bother to show you the script. What's the story behind that? Yeah, I thought, I mean, that probably was about money. I mean, I didn't do this project for money. I did it for the experience. And yes, there's, I feel like when you're a part of pop culture, it's a blessing, but it's also a little bit of a deficit. You have to prove to people first of all that you're human and then that you're capable

of doing more and being in this industry. And I've taken it upon myself to completely peel it back. I want people to see me as a person and then as an actress and all my life experience was just research. It was boot camp. So I was learning as I went. So I, you know what, people don't realize that, you know, when I was shooting Playboy covers, I was also at Samuel French sitting on the ground and reading Tennessee

Williams and Eugene O'Neill and Sam Shepard plays, wondering how do I get from here to here? And it wasn't that I was ambitious. I was just very curious about life and this industry, and I was taking acting lessons, and I worked with an incredible acting teacher, Ivana Chubbuck, who I worked with for a very long time, but really I had nowhere to put it except for Broadway when I played Roxy in Chicago and this character in this film and the other two films that I've done this year too. But I feel like I'm on the right track and it's hard because it feels like two steps forward, one step back.

I remember just doing this last film with Kareem. I know this film called Rosebush Pruning, and I was doing a scene where I was jumping into a swimming pool, and I said, this is it, I'm jumping into the pool, I'm letting all of my life go. Everything that has happened in the past is gone. And he stopped me, and he said,

no, bring it with you, baby. And I was like, yes, I'm gonna bring it with me. I just got chills from head to toe. I said, that's so much easier, and you're right, I'm going to bring it with me. I just got chills from head to toe. I said, that's so much easier. And you're right, I'm not ashamed of my life. I, of course, in hindsight, might have done things differently. But I needed the life experience to teach me that.

And I don't come from a family of actors or artists or cooks or anything. I really had no references and no guidance. So this has been wild-westing it up till now. You know, that story you just told me about jumping into the pool for the role and saying like, I'm shedding my past. Was there ever a moment where you were fighting your past, where you were trying to present yourself as new and it wasn't working. When I was younger, I kind of had given up.

You know, my family fell apart for certain reasons and that really hit me hard. And I couldn't get out of the tabloid world. And I know I fed into the character, but I really was at a loss. So I just turned a blind eye to a lot of things. This cartoon character was created alongside me. I still find that it's not only my past, but the past that has been presented in tabloids, which is sensationalized and a lot of it is untrue, but the truths are bad enough. So I always hate to correct people when people say, oh, you've been married this many times.

I go, no, it's this many times. I know that's still not something to brag about, but it's just the best worst. Pamela, I want to talk a little bit more about this role because the director, Gia Coppola, said she knew you were the one for the role after watching you in this documentary about your life for Netflix that your son Brandon produced. And we are watching your character grappling with the ramifications of her decision to put her career above everything else, including her relationship with her daughter Hannah, which is played by Billy Lord.

Your character in this movie did not raise her daughter full time because the demands of her work was the priority. As a working mother, I think about my kids all the time in the future, how they will view the decisions that I make now that will impact the relationship that we have when we're adults. And so what is so moving for me about your story, Pamela, is that your son Brandon not only made sure that we saw this tender and more expansive view of who you were, but he also was instrumental in making certain that you received this script that Gia Coppola

had thought you were perfect for. Your son is part of your comeback. He masterminded it. Him and Dylan. Dylan is Brandon's ride or die. But Brandon is a great producer and a great visionary. And they're very close in age. They're only a year and a half apart. And it has been an incredible experience to work with them as well. I never thought that would happen. That wasn't my intention when I had kids.

I didn't think they were going to grow up and be so instrumental in my career. I would never want to take up too much of their brain power. I mean, they have their own dreams, their own businesses and their own lives. And you never want to be a burden to your kids. So I struggled a little bit with that in the very beginning but I thought okay as long as this is fun and you're enjoying it and again you know we all question all we question everything as parents just want to make sure this is the right move for them to do but it seems Brandon is, he brought me the film. I mean, people went to him because he produced the documentary. So Gia knew that I hadn't received the script because it was turned down within the hour.

So she knew that I hadn't read it. And so she thought, I'm not taking no for an answer. I'll find Brandon. And that really is the way to get to me, go through Brandon. How does it feel to know that your children see you? They seem to see the totality of who you are. It's sort of a testament to you as a mother. Well, in my case, I wouldn't miss a baseball game. I had them written into my contracts actually when I was doing TV. I have always been there for them. I didn't even have a

nanny. So this is kind of unheard of in this business. Not that it's unheard of elsewhere, but I mean, just to say that might sound silly. But I wanted to be a hands-on mom. If I was going to have kids, I wanted to raise them. So that's another big difference between Shelley and I is that I put everything aside. But I also put everything aside because I wasn't getting the roles I thought that I wanted. And I was struggling a lot in my personal life, too. And my kids were everything to me. And that was really important for me to be with them

and put them first. I know I was talking to Jamie Lee Curtis, and she said she's worked every single day of her children's lives. And we all have our way of doing it. The thing about the choices we make as mothers when our kids are growing up, we just don't know what the outcome will be.

We just try to do the best that we can. But it must have been really hard for you to both be a mother, but also deal with this level of fame that you can, but it must have been really hard for you to both be a mother but also deal with this level of fame that you were in the 90s. I mean, because you weren't just famous, you were tabloid famous, so that means that there were lots of stories that were out there about you that were beyond your control. How did you manage that as a mother while also shielding them from this public persona that was you? Well, it was difficult.

But my kids were with me and I was cooking for the neighborhood and everyone would come over for spaghetti. And I was still, I was volunteering at school. Even if I just got home and I was covered in glitter, I was still the one opening the car doors and getting them into their classrooms and then catching my reflection in the mirror going, oh my goodness, mascara down to my chin, oh dear. I was just always there. I was always a fixture.

I was always at every game. So all their family and all their friends and their nucleus of people knew that I was a very hands-on mom and that all of this circus around me was the non-real part. I tried to keep them away from it, but Brandon would be pitching a baseball game and he would throw his glove down and look at the paparazzi and say, I'm trying to pitch a game here, boys, can you leave me alone? The kids would get really upset. So we got through it.

I wouldn't say unscathed. It took its toll, but they really understood our life. And they understood their father, understood me, and understood what was going on. I always thought age appropriate. I should sit them down and talk to them. But of course, they hear things through friends and through school, and that was hard.

But definitely something to draw from for the film too. My kind of very unique close relationship to my boys who know their moms full of, you know, flaws. I actually ad-libbed that conversation on the phone in the movie where I say, mothers aren't saints, that we are just doing the best we can with the tools we've been dealt. And I think about that when I think about my own mother and the things that she went through. And sometimes we expect a lot of our parents, but we're human beings and we get through it the best way we can. And if there's love there, that's the most important

part. You mentioned your co-star, Jamie Lee Curtis. She plays an older, former showgirl who now works in the casino as a waitress. And you guys are really good friends. And Jamie actually told you that she took this role because of you. When did you learn that?

At the table read. The first day I met her, she had just gotten a spray tan and she was actually changing colors before my eyes. Her tan was intensifying and her lips were getting whiter. Because we should say this woman, the character has like a very, very orange tan. Yeah. A multiple spray tan over spray tan over spray tan. And I told her, I said, I'm so sorry, I'm nervous.

And she goes, oh, come on, you can't be nervous with me. And then she grabbed me by the shoulders and she looked me in the eye and she said, I did this for you. We're in this together. And I just got chills from head to toe. Any fear went out the window and I felt like I've known her my whole life and I still do.

And she's just really an incredible champion for women. And she hadn't seen the documentary. She said she was happy she didn't. She saw it after, but she didn't know much about me. She'd seen me and she knew, she said, that I was capable of much more than I had been doing and she's been there. She's been in different parts of her career and just kind of aching to do more. And so I didn't realize that I'd ever get the chance.

So that's why this is so sweet and so precious, because it almost didn't make it to me, and then I almost didn't get to do it. And I was happy with, I thought, okay, from Baywatch to Broadway, that has a good ring to it. At least I got to be on stage, which was wonderful and scary, and I pulled it off somehow. And then this, I realized that Broadway was just the warmup for this film.

And it just, I had so much experience, even the backstage banter is very similar. And so I, it really was, I didn't know this script was coming, but I was prepared to receive it. Our guest today is Pamela Anderson. We're talking about her new movie, The Last Showgirl. We'll continue after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.

We'll continue after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is Fresh Air. You seem to be surprised sometimes that you take up such big space in the public's imagination, that a Jamie Lee Curtis would take a role for a chance to work with you. I've heard you talk about how you're surprised that Beyonce, who paid tribute to you, would even know who you are. What makes you genuinely surprised by the love that people have for you, knowing and understand the level of your fame? Well, I'm grateful. I'm grateful. I feel the love.

I feel rooted for it, but this is a new feeling. That's a part of the reason I came home. I just thought, I need to peel it all back and find out who I am. What are my original thoughts? I felt like I was dressing for other people. I was playing characters in my personal life. So I thought, I'm just going to go home and make a beautiful garden and make pickles and jams and write a cookbook.

I felt like I have so much to give and I have, you know, I just don't know where to put it. I'm curious about what you mean when you say that you've been playing characters in your personal life, all of your life. What do you mean by that? Well, since I was little, I mean, since I was, I think it was five or six years old, I realized, I said, I'm not going to recognize myself until I'm older. And I knew it would take about 50 years to get there. And here I am. But I felt like if I was going to be a rock star wife, I wanted to be the best rock star wife, or if I was going to be a lifeguard, I wanted to put my own spin on it. I was going to my makeup artist's house

at three in the morning with a head full of rollers and false eyelashes showing up on the set and they couldn't do anything about it. I just kind of wanted to do things a certain way and kind of directed my own life experience from fantasy to fantasy to fantasy. Were you able to pinpoint, like, what was it about five years old that made you say, I'm going to present based on wherever I am and what I'm doing. Like I'm not going to know who I am until I'm 50. That is an extraordinary thing at five years old to come to.

I had some trauma when I was younger and I learned how to escape myself. And that is where I learned to transform into other people, I think, you know, looking back. But I forgot who I was, and my only real moments were raising my children. And when I was writing my memoirs, I realized these chapters were so colorful, because I had really transformed into these characters. And at different times, I felt like different people. But my first plane ride was to Los Angeles, and then to the Playboy Mansion. So it just was one thing after another.

And I had this amazing, wild, messy life. And that gave me a lot to pull from when I was playing this character, but other characters, I feel like my pockets are full of experience. I can access these emotions and this these times in my life Naturally, it's it's something that I enjoy doing but I've been doing it since I was little I just didn't realize this was a business and this is the way it was going to work out So I was I'm kind of set up for this in a way

Pamela the trauma that you experience as a young person So I was, I'm kind of set up for this in a way. Pamela, the trauma that you experienced as a young person, you're a sex abuse survivor, and you endured abuse during the formative years of your life. And you talk about this in great detail in the documentary. Were you ever hesitant about talking about it for the doc? And what made you decide that it was a very important element of your story to tell? Because I think people are

fighting invisible battles and we need to be kind to each other and I thought that was the message I was trying to parlay but also that's how I feel and I talked about it before in a very small group, and then somebody picked up on that and made it more widely known. And so I felt like in the documentary it was important for me to address. But also, there's many people out there that have gone through similar things, and I want them to know that they can still realize their dreams. I feel like I've never looked at my life as a woe is me. I've always looked at this made me stronger and that life is hard for everybody. And this is where art is born.

Did you ever feel, taking us back to the 90 you know, while reading up on you, I'll be honest, Pamela, I was just sick watching credible news interviewers ask you questions about your anatomy during interviews. And you handled it with such grace. How did you do that? Did you go into those interviews with kind of an armor knowing that those were the kind of questions that were coming because you seemed to be so quick with it and and had such an ability to be able to just

deflect from the energy that was being presented to you and I'm just thinking about you as this person who has so many ideas but that was not something that was afforded to you to talk about in the past. You know, Suzanne Summers had a great line. She said, you can't play a dumb blonde and be a dumb blonde. So part of it was just, I think I had to have a sense of humor, but I also found ways to, if people were going to talk that way to me, I wanted to bring up something meaningful to me, like animal rights.

And I found that I could share the attention with something more meaningful. And that gave me some relief to know that I could travel anywhere in the world for whatever reason if it was Baywatch or Playboy and I could talk about animal rights. And that's what I've been doing to this point. And this is when my sons kind of stepped in and said, Mom, but we want to tell your story because we know you're capable of so much more too in your career. And it's time to focus on you and your career.

And you can still do favors for other people, but to focus on what you love. People always ask me, why didn't you do these movie roles? I said, well, these movie roles were not being presented to me. And the relationships really were taking over my life. And I was raising two boys

in kind of a chaotic environment where I needed to be with them. And from my own experience as a child, I wanted to be with them. I didn't want anybody to look after them other than me. The favors that your sons were referring to, were those like cameo roles and stuff like that? Because you do have such a sense of humor,

like you are in on the joke in many of the roles that you take on. I'm thinking about Borat, which I absolutely love that movie, I have to say. But your ability to make fun of yourself. Right, well that's part of it. And yeah, I did a lot of favors for friends. I got to work with a lot of incredible photographers

and do cameos, if it was either for even my brother's friends. I just felt like, okay, they can get this movie made if I do this little funny thing as myself. But these weren't good for me, these were good for other people, and that's what my kids were saying. You've gotta stop doing that, Mom. You get to be you now.

You get to challenge yourself, and I've always been carrying this secret. I feel like I've known I was capable of more, but I didn't know what. And doing Broadway really excited me and really felt like, oh, you know, I have, I do have a lot to give, because if I can do that, I can do anything. Broadway, like theater, is a very exhaustive process, not only just having to perform, but like it's, it's the performance physically too, it's pretty taxing.

Well, and it was wonderful because they wanted me to do the role full strength, not watered down. They knew I was capable of it. And so it was, I don't know if I could sing or dance or act on stage, but I felt very comfortable, not comfortable on stage, just free and I felt like I was home on stage. I really loved it, even though it was so scary. You're vibrating backstage before you get out there, but when you get out there, you just feel safe. You feel like no one can hurt you out there.

The way you describe stepping out on stage in theater, it just sort of reminds me of how you described also your very first Playboy shoot. Because you've said from the very first snap of that camera you describe yourself as feeling like you hit broken free from something. It seems so counterintuitive to this shy unsure girl that you also describe yourself as. Can you say more about that feeling you felt in front of the camera when you first experienced it. It was another feeling just like this where I was a painfully shy girl and I

hated that about myself. I hated it. It was debilitating, it was paralyzing, and I needed to do something to break free of that and that was why I said yes to Playboy, not thinking that I could ever, it was just a cover. It wasn't nudity or anything, this was just a cover. And then once I came to Los Angeles and did the cover, they talked me into becoming a playmate. I remember calling my mother and her going, do it. I would do it.

I said, okay, I'll do it. If someone asked me, I would do it. I think that's what she said. Yeah, she said that. And I'm doing it. If someone asked me, I would do it. I think that's what she said. Yeah, she said that. And so I did it. And I was also looking after my parents. And I remember up until then, I was still giving half of my paychecks to my parents. I thought everybody did that.

And so it was nice to be able to pay off some bills for all of us. And I've done that since then. I've looked after my family. And it's just what I feel is important to do. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pamela Anderson. She stars in the new movie, The Last Showgirl, directed by Gia Coppola.

We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. When you were a kid growing up in Ladysmith, British Columbia, first off, can you describe Ladysmith for us, for folks who will never have a chance to go there. It's just a tiny town, one street of stores. My grandmother had this little autocourt called Arcadi Autocourt, and she lived here after my grandfather passed and had nine little cabins. I've kind of recreated this little, similar to what my grandmother had with these cabins, and I've moved my parents onto

the property. There's just these beautiful rocky mountains and lots of trees. It's a rainforest. I live in a rainforest and there's the beach. I live on the East Coast so the tides are high and very, very low. I have a long dock. I don't have a boat, but I have paddleboards and kayaks. It's a very peaceful place to be and I'm glad I came home. Yeah. You're glad you came home, but when you're growing up you always wanted to leave.

You wanted to escape. You wanted to see what the world had in store for you. How did Playboy even discover you? There was a few times they'd come up to me. Actually, one time I was at a bus stop and someone came up to me and asked me, because I was standing next to an advertisement of myself. I was getting the bus and there was a bus ad of me at the fitness center that I used to work at the tanning salon at. They asked me to do their ads.

So then I, someone said, is that you? And I said, yes. And he goes, oh, I'm so and so from Playboy. Would you consider shooting for Playboy? And I was like, absolutely not. I would never do that. And then Marilyn Gabbalsi called me at my house because my number was listed. You know, it's just called Pamela Anderson, Kitsilano Beach, and she found me.

And on the phone, I was having an argument with my boyfriend or fiance at the time, actually, I've been engaged many times. And she was asking me if I would come to shoot a cover of Playboy. And she said, if we like it, we'll print it. And I said, well, call me when it's for real. And I hung up. And my boyfriend or fiance was really mad at me. And she called back. And she said call me when it's for real and I hung up and my boyfriend or fiance was really mad at me and she called back and she said, no, it's for real and I said, okay, and I just took my purse and I ran out of there and I didn't

come back. The rest is history. I know, it sounds crazy and the rest is history. I thought, what am I doing staying here? This is no fun. I want to talk a little bit more about your parents because in the documentary, Pamela, A Love Story, we also learn a little bit more about their relationship and how it impacted you. In this clip I'm about to play, you're describing them. Let's listen. My mom was a waitress and she worked at Smitty's Pancake House. But my dad was a poker player, con man, chimney sweep, with a top hat and everything. Everyone has a story about my father, the notorious bad boy of Ladysmith. My dad liked to race cars, and my mom has a scar across her whole forehead because her head went through the windshield when she was pregnant with me.

And we like to joke, that's probably the reason I'm a little bit crazy. That was my guest Pamela Anderson in the Netflix documentary about her life, describing her parents. How do you think your parents' relationship affected the way you saw love and marriage for yourself? Well, my parents are still together, madly in love. They write each other beautiful cards and letters, and they're still jealous if someone is out too long. They want to know where they've been. They've always had this very wild love affair.

And I think my brother and I would feel like we were in the way a lot of the times because they were the most important people in each other's lives. And that was something I never wanted my kids to feel, even though, you know, I love my parents, I care for them, and they are here with me. And they're, my dad is really kind of mellowed out,

and I guess in his later years, he had a stroke about five years ago. He made a full comeback. He even got his eyesight back, which is interesting. He used to have to wear glasses, and no, he doesn't. But they're madly in love, but in that wild way, I think that that was my impression of what love is. You know, it was a volatile relationship at times and I would, you know, take my brother

to different places to keep him from seeing things. It's kind of like this small town love affair. I don't know if love affairs change if it's big town or little towns. Yeah, they were like the bad boy and the bombshell. My mom running around in these, you know little outfits and a bouffant hairdo. My dad with the slick back hair and the cigarettes rolled up in his sleeve and the motorcycle and the whole thing. I mean, they're a movie.

And they sound so much like you. You mentioned how you've been married several times. I think there's something tremendously optimistic and brave to, number one, end a relationship that's no longer working, but also, number two, feel that it's possible to experience real love again. And so when I meet people who have been married

multiple times, that's kind of what I'm thinking about. Do you still carry that optimism? Well, I do. I think that it's, if you're in a relationship that isn't working, does it make it better if you stay in it? Or is it better that you leave? I mean, these are up to the individuals. And I remember going to the Playboy Mansion actually one time and Smokey Robinson came up to me and I was in tears about leaving a relationship and he said, you know what darlin', you're a romantic and you know, keep fighting for love. And I thought if Smokey Robinson thinks I'm a romantic and it's okay with him, I'm okay. You know, the public's fixation on your love and sex life, it really picked up in the 90s with this video of you and your then husband, rocker Tommy Lee, that was stolen.

It was a sex tape and this was tremendously painful for you. I want to put this time period in perspective because this was the beginning of the internet and you sued the video distribution company that posted that video but then if I'm correct you backed off because you were afraid of the stress that it would put on you. You were pregnant at the time. I am really sorry that this happened to you. Well the timeline was we had a safe the size of a refrigerator behind a carpeted wall while we were doing construction on our house.

And that's where we kept a lot of our home movies. It wasn't that we made this tape. They spliced together pieces of 50 different tapes and made it look like we were, you know, who knows? And we couldn't even remember if there's anything bad on the tape or exploitive. And when we were starting to get offers of millions of dollars, and we were like, what is going on? And then we actually got one tape back on a VHS, and Tommy looked at it and I didn't

look at it, and realized that someone had stolen the safe, and then worked with this distributor, and we didn't know what to do. We tried to stop it and I was pregnant with Dylan and they brought us into depositions and Tommy would pace the hallway but they were talking to me and trying to really hammer me down. They had nude pictures of me from Playboy. They said I had no right to privacy, that I was owned by the world, that nothing could ever ruin my career because I was not worth anything. And it was so hard. And after a few days of these depositions, Tommy just looked at me and said, we're done

here. We're not going to put our child at risk. And I agreed and we just walked out there and we said, just they'll deal with karma. We don't want a dime. We don't want any of this dirty money and just for them to you know, I won't say what he said to them, but I agreed We walked out of there. We couldn't do it Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us. My guest is Pamela Anderson

She stars in the new movie the last showgirl directed by Gia Coppola. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. Do you ever think about all of the scripts that never made their way to you? Because I'm just thinking about that agent who decided right away that you weren't for The Last Showgirl, you know? You know, I hate to throw him under the bus

because he really was wonderful in so many ways and I know he genuinely cared about me, but he wasn't really a theatrical agent. And I think he was always thinking money first and didn't know if I was interested in doing a film like this. But I remember having a conversation with him not too long after and just saying, if you don't believe in me as an actress, I'm going to have to move on. And nobody would take me until they saw the last showgirl. So you have to do something first.

And that's the hard part about this business is people always think you have a formula. You can just get an agent, get a publicist, get an assistant, and start reading scripts and work with Meryl Streep. But that's not how it works. get an agent, get a publicist, get an assistant, and start reading scripts and work with Meryl Streep. But that's not how it works. A lot of it has to do with the stars aligning and somebody seeing you, if it's Jamie Lee Curtis or Gia Coppola in my case. Or a loving son. but also open up to it and reveal yourself to the world so people can maybe think of you for things and and Let lose the armor and the protection

It's not the same thing, but I'm very fascinated with your decision not to wear makeup How much of that decision? Was part of this journey that you're on to get closer to who you are outside of the persona Well, everything is spontaneous. It's not calculated. So I was just at Paris Fashion Week and I was wearing this beautiful Vivienne Westwood dress and a big hat. I thought, why do I have to sit in a makeup chair for three hours?

There's only, you know, how many inches of my face is going to show? Are people really going to fall over backwards if I'm not wearing makeup? So I decided to go to the Louvre and take a walk through the park and just put the clothes on and go. And people around me were like, no, you need a glam team and this is the industry standard. And I said, I don't want to do the industry standard. It's not that I felt like I looked better without makeup, I just looked more myself. And this is something that was just part of my journey that I needed to do for myself.

And I felt with the way photography is these days, when people wear full faces of makeup, it's not really that flattering in a lot of cases, especially as we get older. And so I just, these are just decisions I made for myself. And I found that pictures with me with makeup weren't working, didn't look very good either. So I preferred a fresh face and That's just how it started. Do you think you would have been able to make that decision when you were younger? Well again, I was Enjoying creating other kind of characters, you know, I was it was part of the I was in a makeup chair every day you know on Baywatch or a VIP or

Stacked or Barbed Wire. And I had a girlfriend, Alexis Vogel, who's passed away now, and she was an incredible makeup artist. And it didn't take a long time to do makeup. It wasn't about contour and shading and highlights. It was just a little bit of makeup here and there, and some lip liner and some eyelashes and eyebrows.

But she was such a girl's girl. She did so much for people that were, we used to go to domestic violence shelters and do makeovers with girls and she had such a big heart and I felt like there's just nobody like her. And I wish that she was here to see these big makeup looks be popular because when we were doing it, it was not popular. It was more popular to be kind of... She passed away from breast cancer about seven years ago and I never really re-found my Alexis

and I thought, well, if I can't do it myself, I mean, I do go out sometimes with a little lip tint or some mascara. I'm experimenting. I don't know what my next incarnation is going to be. I mean, as I get older, I would love to find what that is, but I'm just in this space right now. So it's not like I've sworn off makeup. I've just, I want to figure it out as I go.

Pamela Anderson, this was such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Well, thank you very much. Pamela Anderson's new film, The Last Showgirl, is now in theaters. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Bloomberg reporter Zeke Fox. His book, Number Go Up, is a gripping account of some of the colorful scams and characters in the world of cryptocurrency. He'll talk about what Donald Trump's new embrace of crypto will mean for financial

regulation and the new Trump family crypto business, World Liberty Financial. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Lea Challener, Susan Nuckundee, and Anna Bauman.

Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.