Fresh Air - Pharrell Thinks He Sounds Like Mickey Mouse

Episode Date: November 29, 2024

The animated film Piece By Piece traces Pharrell Williams' early life as a boy growing up in Virginia Beach and follows his trajectory to a Grammy-winning songwriter, performer and producer. He spoke with Tonya Mosley about his synesthesia, the song Prince rejected, and disliking his own voice. Subscribe to Fresh Air's weekly newsletter and get highlights from the show, gems from the archive, and staff recommendations.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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Hey, Pharrell. Hey, how you doing, man? You know what'd be cool is if we told my story with Lego pieces. Seriously? Yes, Lego. Just be open. Yes. Lego.

That's a scene from Piece by Piece, a new biopic about the life of music producer and multi-hyphenate artist Pharrell. But to call it a biopic almost feels too simple. Like so much of Pharrell's music, the film is a mix of genres. It's a musical, it's a documentary, and it's a Lego animation all in one. It pieces together Pharrell's life growing up in Virginia Beach and the lows and highs of his ascension within the music and fashion industry. And did I mention the music? The film gives us a behind-the-scenes look at the making of some of Pharrell's top hits that he's produced both for

himself and a long list of performers. So hot in here So hot in here So hot in here So hot in here All I wanna do is zoom my zoom, zoom, zoom And boom boom All I wanna do is zoom my zoom, zoom, zoom And boom boom Check baby, check baby One, two, three, four

Check baby, check baby One, two, three, four Check baby, check baby One, two, three. Check baby, check baby one, two. Check baby, check baby one. It's true. Beautiful. I just want you to know You're my favorite girl. I'm a hustler, baby.

I just want you to know It ain't where I've been But where I'm about to go Now I just wanna love you, but be who I am And with all this cash, you'll forget your man Don't be so quick to walk away, this is me I wanna fuck your body, please stay, this is me I wanna fuck your body This is me This is me

You don't have to admit you're Going away This is me Just let me fuck you Till the break of day This is me Uh huh, this my All the girls stomp your feet like this

Few times I've been around that trick So it's not just gonna happen like that Cause there ain't no holly back Girl, there ain't no Hall of Back Girl A few times I've been around that track so it's not just gonna happen like that Cause there ain't no Hall of Back Girl, there ain't no Hall of Back Girl All's my life I has to fight All's my life I has to fight. All's my life I, hard times like ya, bad shits like ya. Nazareth, I'm f**ked up homie, you f**ked up.

But if God got us then we gon' be alright. We gon' be alright. We gon' be alright. We gon' be alright. Do you hear me? Do you feel me? We gon' be alright. We gon' be all right. We gon' be all right. Do you hear me? Do you feel me? We gon' be all right. We gon' be all right. Academy Award-winning filmmaker Morgan Neville directed piece by piece with interviews

from music industry heavy hitters like Snoop Dogg, Jay-Z, Gwen Stefani, Justin Timberlake, Kendrick Lamar, and his partner from the Neptune's Chad Hugo. There's even a cameo of the late astronomer Carl Sagan, and everyone, of course, is a Lego. Perel Williams, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you, your voice is amazing. The film is so cinematic,

and I never thought I'd say that about a Lego film, but it is cinematic. Why Lego? Oh, because when I was a child, you know, my fondest memories of like having toys and my earliest memories were the Lego sets that like my parents would get me when I was really really really young. The idea that you get to like escape when you don't even know that you're escaping because you're just

literally ideating and imagining in real time as you build with these pieces. And whether you actually really build what the set is all about or you're just putting pieces together like what it does for the young mind and how it sets it free, it's just magical. And at the same time, I really also wanted, if I'm gonna tell my story, which I was never really interested in doing,

if I'm gonna do it, I wanna do it in a way that my children, which were our oldest, and then our triplets had just been born. So four young kids, and how old were they at the time with this idea? Because this was five, six years ago, right? Yeah, at that point, our oldest may have been eight or nine. And then our babies had just been born.

And so they're now seven. And my whole thing was like, I didn't know how long the animation process was going to take. But I definitely wanted them to understand the story as their dad would tell it. I wanted them to be able to get it. You know, if you tell it through the guys of Lego, it's like, okay, they understand it's like a world, you know. It's the only way it was going to happen if I was ever going to do it. I wasn't interested in doing a biopic. No way. Why? Because for two reasons. One, I have such a high standard of stories. And I didn't really think my story would be interesting.

Storytelling to me is an art form, and not everybody is good at it. And you need really interesting components to the story for it to be compelling. And then as a performer, like I just, you know, just say, who wants to see me? It's a lot like, you're probably used to your voice at this point. Yeah.

But even still, do you like hearing yourself on a voicemail? Hate it. It's the worst. I won't even listen to this, Pharrell. Right, see, I don't either. on a voicemail? I hate it. It's the worst. I won't even listen to this, Pharrell. Right, see? I don't either. I don't look at my video.

I don't read my interviews. I just don't. It's too much. My standards are too high. But I call it voicemail syndrome. So if you're saying you don't like it and you hate it, imagine an hour and change of it. I know.

So the process though, because like you said, it took five years because of the animation process to turn what was your life into a Lego movie. And one of the things that Neville did in this film was visualize your ability to hear colors and see sound. You talk about this often, synesthesia, which is a neurological mixing of senses. In the film, what's so cool is that when you make music, the colors correspond with it, and then you give the piece of music as a musical note to the artist, and it's a beautiful

color. You see seven colors, right, that denote notes. Can you explain that to us? If you take it back to when you were born, all of your nerve endings, sight, sound, smell, taste, feeling, they were all connected. And then when you turn one, those nerve endings, they prune. And sometimes some of them stay connected. And the ones that stay connected give you synesthesia. And when they're connected, they send ghost images and ghost information to the different parts of the brain.

And so you'll end up hearing a color or seeing a sound. Yes. Right? But there's all kinds. Yep. And when you go and do the research, you realize a lot of like, you know, there are graphemic synesthetes too. And those are the people who like can recite,

you know, 26 digit numbers, because they see the two as slightly tilted and they see the four as in burgundy. And so it gives them this information and it's great for them. And what's amazing is a lot of musicians do. Tons of them. Have you worked with any of them? Because I was reading that Stevie Wonder might even have a form of synesthesia.

And that makes sense because so much of his music, he is describing, he is describing color. There is just like a really beautiful sense of that within the music. What I find fascinating is like, man, if he's never seen red before, then how does he know what red is? Right. How do we know that he's not seeing orange? Yep. But he thinks it's red and there's no way to really verify that. Mm-hmm. Like, but he is seeing red. I's no way to really verify that.

But he is seeing red. I mean, he's a genius man. I don't know. I was just saying, you can go down to Rabbit Hill with Sunesthesia. Have you and an artist ever vibed over that? Yeah, because we all see different things. It utilizes the Roy G. Biv, but it's not based on the Roy G. Biv's arrangement. What do you mean? Meaning, you know, certain people hear chords and they don't necessarily picture the same colors.

Everybody is very unique. I want to play a song just to give us, like, a better understanding of how your process works. So I chose Milkshake, which I heard in a commercial recently. I mean, we're here. Time has really gone by, right? That Milkshake is in a commercial. But Milkshake was a 2003 song performed by Khalees and written and produced by you

and Chad Hugo as the Neptunes. Let's listen to a little. My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard And they're like, it's better than yours Damn right, it's better than yours I could teach you, but I have to charge I know you want it, the thing that makes me What the guys go crazy for They lose their minds, the way I want I think it's time That was Khalees performing Milkshake, written and produced by my guest today, Pharrell. Okay, what does milkshake look like to you, Pharrell? It is like, the shapes are hard for me to explain, but it sort of zigzags. And those scent lines are yellow and brown for me. And the yellow goes from bright to mustard, marigold,

and in there is like, just like very stark brown. What I've always found really interesting about your music, it feels like environmental. and in there is like just like very stark brown. What I've always found really interesting about your music, it feels like environmental. Like I'm hearing like just sounds that I hear in my everyday life. And that one in particular, like there are the bells and like buzzing sounds

and things like that. Yeah. That song came from a trip that I went to on Brazil and I just like lost my mind. I'd never seen so many beautiful women, all in... They were just everywhere. And forgive the... the objectification, when I say that.

Yeah. But that was the impression that it made on my mind at that time. I don't know, I don't know, 20 years ago, I don't know. Right, right. I was, you know, I was a kid. Yeah. Really, just like, whoa, I'd never seen anything like that. Where am I?

And if you could put that energy and feeling, if that could be sort of transmutated, if you will. Mm-hmm. Into a song. Yeah. That was the attempt. One of the things that the film does is give us a grounding of you as a young person coming into yourself. And synesthesia is a condition that you don't know any other way

because that's how you've always been. But when did you realize that others may not see the world the way that you do? Oh, when you talk about it in a conversation and they kind of be like, what, what'd you say? What colors? You mentioned how when one of your senses is being blocked, basically sensory deprivation,

it allows your mind to wonder and be imaginative. I was really interested in this because I've done like the sensory deprivation tanks and I thought it was so interesting like to hear my heartbeat in my ears. I was wondering as part of your process, do you create for yourself sensory deprivation at times so that you could actually hear your creativity or imagination? Well that is like a controlled environment where you have the ultimate sensory deprivation, what you're talking about, those chambers. But a simpler version of it is just like when you're in the shower, you know, and the water

is just consistently running and it creates an effect of white noise. And that's the reason why you can think clearly when you're in the shower. Ideas come to you, do ideas come to you? Of course, ideas come or sometimes people sing in the shower, that's the reason why they do it, is because that consistent noise, that white noise, is particularly freeing to the part of your mind that wants to just iterate

and not be distracted by environmentally distracted. So running water, being near water, being in water, a bath, a pool, seeing the ocean, standing in the shower, washing my hands in the sink. It does it for me. I think we learn in the movie that Happy came from running water for you. That was a cinematic liberty.

Okay, okay. It was a way of just like sort of simplifying how the process came about, I was in a studio racking my brain for that song. And after nine different songs and versions of something to fill in the blank for that movie, the song is a sarcastic answer, a frustration for a rhetorical question. How do you make a song about someone so happy

that nothing can bring them down? I mean, like, get out of here. Okay, so it's 2013, you're tasked with writing music for Despicable Me Too. As you said, you're racking your brain and like nothing's coming up that like they love, the executives love, and then this happy song comes up.

Was it a hit immediately or did you have to sell it as well? They got it, but then all of a sudden the, when the movie came out, they went to go try to work it at radio and they couldn't get it to work at radio because it just didn't say, it was alien. It didn't sound like anything else. So radio stations wouldn't play it? No, no, they didn't play it until we did the video six months later when the song was included on the DVD. There were DVDs at that time and there was a budget to do a video for the song

since we loved it as a companion piece to sell the DVD. One of the things you discovered that you talked about a lot, but it's so powerful to me because it articulated a feeling that I felt is like, so many people told you what that song meant for them, but what that revealed to you was the pain that many people are in,

almost the opposite of happiness. Oh, I'm very empathetic. So as they're telling you what they went through, it's heavy. You know, and I absorbed it in a way that like it was just a lot for me. I want to talk with you a little bit about working with artists, because there's this story of you and Snoop Dogg working together that's told in the film. working with artists, because there's this story of you and Snoop Dogg working together that's told in the film, and you all collaborated on the 2004 hit, Drop It Like It's Hot.

Let's listen. When the pimps in the crib, ma Drop it like it's hot Drop it like it's hot Drop it like it's hot When the pigs try to get at you Park it like it's hot Park it like it's hot Park it like it's hot And if a n***a get a you Park it like it's hot Park it like it's hot Park it like it's hot And if a get a attitude Pop it like it's hot Pop it like it's hot Pop it like it's hot I got the rollie on my arm And I'm pouring Chandon And I'm hula-bessin' Cause I got it goin' on

I'm a nice dude With some nice dreams See these ice cubes See these ice creams Eligible bachelor Million dollar bow That's whiter than what's Hot, which was produced by my guest today, Pharrell. And Pharrell, Snoop Dogg said in the movie that, I want to get this right, that you were the first to allow us, the public, to see the smile in him. And I thought that was so tender.

And it made me think, are you really responsible for Snoop Dogg becoming America's uncle? Because, you know, after that song, he did become this force that we now see him beyond. That persona is the hard West Coast rapper. Do you understand what he meant when he says that you allowed us to see the smile in him

through that song? When he says all those really nice things, I'm always just always taken aback by it. I don't know if I really get what he implies, but I'm honored that he associates me with those types of reflections. Well what did you see in him for that song? Because that song is light. It does provide like, you know, it's got the groove, but it also has like a lightness to it. Well, it's interesting that you see Drop It Like It's Hot as like a light, the lightness

and I guess I never really looked at it that way. I mean, at the time, I just knew the traumas was hitting hard and it felt good. I don't know if I had ever really given any kind of emotive analysis of it. But I guess you're right, it's not dark. Like you're right, that's true. I never saw it that way until you said it. I mean, well, you said that you often try to reverse engineer the feeling that you feel about an artist when you all are first working together

so that you can come up with that sound. Can you say more about that? What is the energy that people have when they walk in? It's what they say that they're looking for and then it's what their voice and energy tells you that it needs It's sort of a combination of all three every once in a while someone walks in saying they want one thing and I'm like, no you don't or I disagree or I just don't see that in you. And I'm not always right. Sometimes they go out and go do it somewhere else

and it's like, damn, you know what? I didn't see that. But that's me though. I'll tell you in a heartbeat, man, I just didn't see it. Our guest today is Pharrell Williams. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is Fresh Air. This message comes from Wyze, the app for doing things in other currencies. right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is Fresh Air.

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This is Fresh Air, I'm Tanya Mosely. And today my guest is multi hyphenate artist and music producer Pharrell. We're talking about his new animated biopic, Piece by Piece, which is about his life growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and his career in the music industry, creating hits like Drop It Like It's Hot, Get Lucky, and the phenomenon that was Happy. The film is done entirely using Lego animation.

You have this ability to capture the essence of an artist. There's times, though, when artists don't of an artist. There's times though when artists don't want what you're giving. Mm-hmm. You said so nicely in the film, I wrote this song for Prince and he didn't want it. It ended up being a hit for you. But what's the story behind that of you writing a song for Prince and he not accepting it? Well he was different. You know, he had, there was, you know, he was one of those people that like he's a musical savant There's not an instrument. He couldn't pick up and play He's a brilliant writer his vocally he's

Incredible he was an incredible performer And he wrote and produced for so many people. So in his mind is like, you know his Caveats buddy and one of which it was like, do you own all your masters? If you don't own your masters, we can't work together. I was like, well. Was he one of the first to say that to you? Had you heard that before? No, I never heard anyone say that before. Then his other thing was he wanted to like, sort of talk about religion. And I was like, interesting. And, you know, now I do own all of my master recordings

and I'd be happy to square off in a conversation about the business of religion versus the necessity of faith. of religion versus the necessity of faith. At that time, it felt, was it over your head? No, I just was young and was like, for real, okay, whatever. Yeah. You know, not knowing that he wasn't gonna be here that long, you know. What year was this?

I was incredibly respectful. I mean, like he was the goat of then, He still is, you know what I'm saying? I don't know, this might've been like the early 2000s. The song was frontin', right? Yeah, but that was just the music for it at the time. Yeah. I was wondering a little bit, I wanted to talk to you for a minute

about your singing voice. Like how did you find your singing voice? Because up until the moment when you decided to become like this solo artist with your own music, you were making beats for other people. And did you always know that you were a falsetto? Like how did you find that voice? I had a problem with my voice for many, many, many years because I that was just it I didn't feel like I had found my voice I always thought like my tone sounded like Mickey Mouse the next time you listen to front and picture Mickey Mouse you can't unsee it stop I swear that's one now that's just my tone. Then there is skill set. Yeah.

Not being flat. I definitely didn't use any kind of tuning back then. So I was flat all over the place, sounding like a hot vermin. Just sounding crazy. And my standard is super high. Remember I told you, that's the reason why I didn't want to do a documentary. My standard is how I work with great singers.

I worked with Beyonce before. I work with Rihanna. I work with people who really can sing. I work with Shakira. I work with Kim Burel. I work with singers. I work with the Clark Sisters. I know what singing really, really, really is. The craft of singing is a real thing.

How did you get over it then if you felt like you sounded like Mickey Mouse? Because there was a part of you that wanted it. Like you wanted to be a solo artist. You wanted to be a star. You wanted to be successful. That was ego when I did Frontin'. I wanted to show that I was known for rapping and making beats at the time. And I was like, yo, I'm going to go do this thing too. It was more of a flex.

And then I looked up and was like, oh, but then you gotta go out there and go tour it. And I hated touring. What don't you like about it? I love being all over the world. I hated staying in different hotels and not really having like the right options that I felt like I wanted to.

I was always that way. I was a very particular child. I like what I like, and when I can't have what it is that I like, I'm very routine, and I ain't realized that. I didn't realize a lot of things until later in life. But my issues were that I was very hardwired for regiment and consistency.

And I don't like new environments. But I love, man, touring with NERD and going to like Sydney or, you know, or Amsterdam or like London, Brixton shows. But I hated, I didn't really enjoy like the hotel accommodations. or Amsterdam or like London, Brixton shows. But I hated, I didn't really enjoy like the hotel accommodations and I didn't really like being on the bus all the time. I was like not into that at all. Right.

So, you know, it was just very particular as a kid and I just didn't understand what I didn't understand and I didn't have anyone to explain it to me because I came from Virginia, you know, understand what I didn't understand and I didn't have anyone to explain it to me because came from Virginia, you know, it wasn't like a blossoming music industry there wasn't known for that. It was only that when Teddy moved there and brought his studio and like his whole entire business outfit there. That's how we got into the music industry but other than that it would have never happened. So there was no one to really show us the ropes. It's not like being here at LA.

Our guest today is Pharrell Williams. Here's his song, Frontin' from 2003. I don't wanna say I'm sorry, Revan So sexy So you think about a chance You find yourself trying to do my dance Maybe cause you love me You do well So then we tried We did it slow down because you weren't used to how fast we touched

How fast we touched Then we locked eyes We touched We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley and this is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air and today we're talking to multi-hyphenate artist and music producer Pharrell about his new animated biopic, Piece by Piece, which is about his life growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and his career in the music industry, creating hits like Drop It Like It's Hot, Get Lucky, and The Phenomenon That Was Happy. The film is done entirely using Lego animation. You grew up in

Virginia Beach. Can you describe where you grew up? Atlantis housing projects? It was public housing. We lived on a federal subsidy. So, you know, government cheese and, you know, all those essentials government addition like you know that was the vibe. Right yeah. When you live in those neighborhoods you're really you're really living next door and right on top of each other. The units are not that big so a lot of a lot of the people tenants, spend a lot of their time outside. And so you're in a community that is closely packed. The units are facing each other.

So almost all the structures of the neighborhood are forming courts, courtyards. You are facing each other, oftentimes maybe even pitted against each other. And usually, if you're lucky, there's two ways in and out of the neighborhood, but most of the time there's only one way in, one way out. And it produces this type of person. Outside looking in, people were afraid to go in there.

Inside looking out, it was very magical. Because everybody was so close in proximity, it produced, you know, you talk about like carbon, right, black, you know, that heat, that pressure, that time produced a lot of diamonds. There were a lot of athletes that were incredibly gifted, a lot of artists that were incredibly gifted. Now the odds a lot of artists that were incredibly gifted. Now the odds are pretty much stacked against you because your teachers need to see what you have in you and in terms of your propensity and not all of the, education didn't always meet us in the intersection

of where we were, how we process information to like thinking about what we were gonna do in our five and 10 year and 15 year trajectory. They weren't having those kinds of conversations. So yeah, that was what it was like to be on a federal subsidy. It's like you're an outcast before you even step foot outside a neighborhood you don't even know.

It was so vibrant the way it was shown in the movie at the same time though. Because we didn't wanna make poverty porn. That's the thing. It's like I said, outside look it in, you think, oh, what was me and so poor. Man, we were having so much fun. You go in that neighborhood, you see 20 kids doing wheelies on their bicycles from light pole to light pole. And you felt like, and I understand this feeling that there are so many, like there are so many talented people. You ask yourself, why you?

That was it. Why me? Because I knew I was the least talented person in my neighborhood. Advantage was and is teaming with really talented people, all the housing projects. They ran- You ever feel survivor's guilt?

No, never survivor's guilt. Just more just like just questioning, just trying to understand it. Because if I don't know why then I'm like, well how long is it gonna last then? I don't know why then I don't know the when. If I don't know when then I don't, you know, do I really understand the what? Do you feel like you know now? Oh yeah, my job is to hold the door open. Yeah, for sure. I love how you described it many years ago. You said that in many ways it feels parallel in your mind conceptually to America itself because it's progression

that you're in love with, but it's also like untapped potential. It's a place with so much untapped potential. Can you say more about that? Oh, it's a beautiful place. It's at Second Tier Market. And it is still teeming, teeming with low-hanging fruit. And if you're willing to take the time out to fly there and go shake the tree yourself,

you actually get some of the sweeter fruit to fall. It's there. That's so interesting because like, as we will see in the film, as you mentioned, record producer Teddy Riley discovered you and the Neptunes at a talent show. And just to give people a little bit of the backstory, he set up his studio in Virginia Beach,

future recording studios right across the street from your high school. How did you and Chad prepare for this talent show? We just had Chad's keyboard, you know, the stuff that we had programmed in there and we just went out there and did what we could. What's so cool about Teddy Riley coming to Virginia Beach is like he didn't really even have that much of a connection to Virginia Beach.

Like it seems so serendipitous that he would say of all the places I'm going to put a studio in Virginia Beach. And he talks about why he ended up doing that, to get away from a lot of things. He's told it a million times, and I swear to you, I cannot walk away with a deduced, clear idea of why he chose Virginia Beach, Virginia, and chose right there on Virginia Beach Boulevard,

literally right next to my school, a five minute walk. And not five years before we were there or five years after. Like, literally, while we were there. I mean, he had like Bobby Brown pulling up to the studio. You know, getting out of like expensive foreign cars with furs on. I had never seen a fur jacket, a short fur jacket. Or let alone dudes wearing furs.

Like, I think that's like a New York thing or like something you would see like mobsters with, but like we didn't see that. And he was making amazing guy music and making amazing, this is before Blackstreet, amazing guy music. He was making Bobby Brown music. You know, he had just done Dangerous for Michael Jackson. We were like, who is this guy that like, Teddy Riley, like, is one of the greatest producers ever,

and we moved where? And so after he saw you guys in that talent show, you worked in his studio for a little bit. What did you learn from working in his studio? Well, I learned studio etiquette, be quiet when like, masters are at work, and I learned very hard lessons about that. I was like man why don't you change that chord or you know

maybe you should use a different snare. Like what? I never thought I'd see it but we got to see Rump Shaker in Lego form in this movie, the actual video. Which is crazy. It is crazy. The video, you know, the legendary iconic scene from the video is the woman with the saxophone and you guys actually have her in Lego form and sax. But people will learn the story in the film, but what verse did you write for Teddy's Rump Shaker? The verse that he says, the one where he's chatty, ready with the one, two, checka, that part. You call yourself during those early years, you said it a few times during our conversation,

like arrogance, hubris. Can you say more of what you meant by that? What did that look like, a young Pharrell? I just didn't know no better. I just thought, oh, like, because I came from an era of like people bragging, you know, you would beat your chest, you would pat your back. I'm the best, I'm this, I'm that, you know?

You know, you saw a lot of like really greatest of all time people, Ali, you know, Michael Jordan, you know, Michael Jackson, Prince, you know, Michael had humble energy, but if you, he'll tell you, he was the greatest. And that was his goal. So you dealing with that, then you dealing with every rapper saying they're the best,

they're baddest, they're this, they're that. It was just everywhere, all the athletes, the artists, you know, the, any and everybody of note was, would champion their brand with borderline hubris or full blown like arrogance. And you would have to be good enough to back these things up. I feel like you couldn't be any other way though. I mean, if you're coming from nowhere, essentially, you are the hype man. You're the one that's got to tell people I'm good. Yeah but then like at a certain point I met Nigo-san

out in Japan and this guy... Who is that just to let people know who don't know? Nigo is my partner in Human Made. He's a Japanese founder, apparel and footwear designer. When I met him in Tokyo, he had more Rolls Royces than me and he did not brag and he didn't say anything at all really. He just would like pull up and just be like, wow. The power of the silence. That changed me. I was like, man, I don't need to brag. Hmm.

And then, like, you know, that was... That started the process. That was like 20-something years ago. And I still kind of bragged. But I took note that, like, he had way more impact, and he didn't say anything. He'd just pull up, or he'd just put that on. Yeah. Or, you know, he'd just put that on. Or he'd just be doing the most, but not saying anything.

Doing the most, but saying the least. And then when I turned 40, then I had a series of songs, go number one, that were commissioned for people. They were looking for specific things. It wasn't just me waking up and going, I'm gonna do this for you and this is what you need. It was more like the universe came to me with three different things that I needed to do.

And when I did them, they became bigger records than anything I had ever done before. So that like, it humbled me and made me cry. It was like, well, okay, all this time I thought it was all about me. And you know, I'm the genesis of this, of what I'm doing. And, you know, I come up with the impetus and the universe was like, nah, you know, you had to be frustrated. You tried it nine times and it didn't work, did it? And then I decided that you would have some success, the universe

says to me, you know, And it was three times that year, I had three number ones and we're like, okay. What were the number ones you remember? Blurred lines, get lucky, and happy. What a year, my gosh. That was a summer, yeah. That was a summer. Blurred lines is an interesting one

because you learned other lessons from that. I mean, a lawsuit came out of that. Marvin Gaye's family said that it was very similar to a record of his. Yep. Did this change the way you approach music, approach when you're wanting to have a similar sound to something else to call back to our memory?

It's confusing to me, honestly, Pharrell, because so much music calls back. You know what I mean? Well, that's the thing. But is it calling back because it is a familiar feeling, or is it calling back because it's actually using the same elemental building blocks of the music? And is it protectable?

Those were the questions that were up, right? Right, and the universe did something, because I had, up until that point, I had only graduated high school. But I went back to school and got my master's in music theory. Because I wanted to understand why we lost that case. When I knew fundamentally what the differences were. And yeah, so I got my masters and working

on my doctorate. You're working on your doctorate, is it in music? Yeah, because I have three honorary doctorates right now and I felt like the universe was telling me like, listen, you need to like go back to school. Is it in music theory? Yeah, in music theory. How did that change your approach though to producing music? I mean, I have always known music. I was classically trained as a percussionist. But when it came to the harmonics,

it was always by ear. So I was instinctively learned. But now I have an academic understanding for what it is that I'm actually playing when I'm playing things with harmony. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest today is Pharrell. We're talking about his new animated biopic, Piece by Piece.

We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air, and today I'm talking with multi-hyphenate artist and music producer, Pharrell, about his new animated biopic, Piece by Piece, which is about his life growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and career in the music industry, creating hits like Drop It Like It's Hot, Get Lucky, and The Phenomenon That Was Happy. The film is done entirely using LEGO animation. Gosh, Pharrell, one of my favorite Henry Louis Gates PBS Finding Your Roots episodes was yours. You learned about your ancestors. In particular, you actually learned about some

of your great, great, great aunts and uncles who were born into slavery in 1852. And the interview with Gates found that they were part of this slave narrative project, which documented the oral histories of formerly enslaved people. You had a chance to read from that. And in this clip I'm about to play, you're reading a description of your aunt. We lived in log houses with stick and dirt, chimneys. They called them the slave houses. I worked on the farm, cutting corn stalks, and tending to cattle and slavery time.

Sometimes I swept the yards. After working all day, there was a task of cotton to be picked and spun by them. What kind of people? What kind of people? It puts a very vivid, intense context behind what it means to be African American. And I thank God that I got to hear it.

What I'm so sorry they went through this. Oh, nobody should have gone through this. There's a lot, man. Oh. I have to say I am forever changed. That was my guest Pharrell on Finding Your Roots reacting to the description of what his relatives endured during slavery. And it's a powerful moment

because you get to hear what their daily lives are like, what they were doing from hour to hour. And it's always a gift for us to know. I felt like I was living vicariously through you, you being able to find out the details. You said it forever changed you. How has it? Well, I was living vicariously through them. Reading these things, and I just felt like it was such a gift to have that connection. You know, as Black people in America, most of us don't have a connection to our lineage, our ancestral lineage in that way. We just don't know.

You know, not like a lot of our other sibling species of different demographics who do know their ancestral lineage, they have their cultural history and so they know. And so when they speak, they speak from a different place. There's a confidence in their tones because you know where you come from and because you know who you've been, you know who you are and you know who you wanna be.

We don't have that. Now you have a little bit of it. Yeah, it's a very big difference. And so you feel difference and you feel different and you feel more solid. When you pivot, there's a lot more connection to the ground and the gravity of not knowing is not pulling you down, but now you are using that,

you're harnessing that gravity to take bigger steps forward now. It's different. Well, Pharrell, this has been such a pleasure to learn about how you got to this moment. And I really thank you for your time. Thank you. Pharrell Williams' new animated biopic

is called Piece by Piece. It's in theaters and available for streaming on Amazon Prime, Apple TV, YouTube, and other platforms. Because I'm happy, come along if you feel like a room without a roof. On Monday's show, Music in Conversation with Jaron Paxton, a multi-instrumentalist known for playing music that comes from the 1920s and 30s.

He just released his first album of his own compositions. It's called Things Didn't Change. He brought a guitar, banjo, and harmonica. Join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Stanaszewski with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Hertzfeld.

Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challener, Susan Yacundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly C.V. Nesper and Sabrina Seaworth. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.