Fresh Air - Questlove On Hip-Hop And History

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson still remembers the first time he heard The Sugarhill Gang's 1980 hit "Rapper's Delight." It felt like a paradigm shift: "Suddenly they start talking in rhythmic poetry and we didn't know what to make of it," The Roots bandleader says. Questlove's new book is Hip-Hop is History.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Amir Questlove Thompson, is always involved in multiple projects, which is good for our show because it keeps providing opportunities to have Questlove back on. Today's occasion is the publication of his new book, Hip Hop is History. It's written from his perspective as a band leader, obsessive fan, and historian of the music. He's the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for The Tonight Show, starring Jimmy Fallon. He's won six Grammys. Last year at the Grammys, in honor of hip-hop's 50th anniversary, he produced a 13-minute

tribute segment. Sounds like a great gig, but there were a couple of cancellations at the very last minute, literally. He'll tell us how he got through that crisis. Questlove won an Oscar for his film Summer of Soul, documenting the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, featuring footage of live performances, including by Stevie Wonder, Sly and the Family Stone, Nina Simone, Mavis Staples, and Mahalia Jackson. Questlove is also the author of several books, including Music is History and Soul Train, the Music, Dance, and Style of a Generation. Questlove, welcome back to Fresh Air. It is always so much fun to have you on our show. So since this is, the new book is Hip Hop is History. I thought we should start with the first rap record that you ever heard, which is the first rap record a lot of people, including me, ever heard.

And the song is Rapper's Delight by the Sugar Hill Gang. And I know you hate to be Captain Obvious, but this seems to be the place that we should start because it starts you off on your career in hip hop. So set the scene for us. Where did you first hear this? You know, I first heard Rapper's Delight at my grandmother's house doing the dishes with my sister. We thought it was the disco song Good Times by Chic. So, okay, we've heard that before.

It's the number one song in the country, no big deal. And then suddenly they start talking and rhythmic poetry and, you know, we didn't know what to make of it. And there was a point, maybe three minutes into it where it didn't seem like the song was ever going to end. And then I had a decision to make. Should I run upstairs in my bedroom to get my tape recorder so I can record the rest of it so I can perform it tomorrow at lunch in school? Or should I just stay here frozen looking at the radio? Because, you know, the whole thing is about like, what am I going to tell my friends that I heard the song that changed my life, but you can't explain what it is. So basically,

I decided to run upstairs, get my tape recorder. And I didn't know that the song was 15 minutes long. So, you know, at the three minute mark, I'm recording this 15 minute song. And pretty much, I think I spent at least the next hour committing to memory, writing it down, rehearsing it on the way to school. And when I got to lunch, three friends of mine heard it, and we were trying to explain to the rest of our friends what it was. And I performed it, and I immediately knew the, saw the immediate effect of what it is to be popular. And so, yeah, Rapper's Delight.

I mean, paradigm shift is probably understating what that moment meant for a lot of us. But you didn't become a rapper. You were a drummer. Well, I didn't see, I think everyone starts off their passion as a spectator and then suddenly they get drawn into it um you know and the thing is is that um with hip-hop culture i don't know it yet you know now if there's a version of life that allows like my current adult version to kind of travel back in time to you know visit eight-year-old me without that eight-year-old getting freaked out like, hi, I'm you in the future.

I don't know yet, but I'm already being trained and groomed for hip hop because number one, I'm living in a will be part of my musical diet as I start to create music myself. And become a DJ. And become a DJ and a producer and all those things. They're helping me. As a drummer, I'm attracted to the part of the song that just lets the drums go for four bars, eight bars. So automatically a Bill Withers song and, you know, I'm attracted to those things. So I will say that I was Spectator for, you know, the first 10 years. And then once Public Enemy's second album comes out, it takes a nation of millions to hold

us back. That's when I'm realizing the air quote boring part of my parents' record collection has suddenly come to life. All right, so let's get back to eight-year-old Questlove when you heard hip-hop for the first time and we'll listen to the Sugarhill Gang's Rapper's Delight, the first commercially successful hip-hop for the first time, and we'll listen to the Sugarhill Gang's Rapper's Delight, the first commercially successful hip-hop recording. I said a hip hop, the hippity, the hippity, the hip, hip hop You don't stop, rock it out, baby, bubble to the boogity Bang, bang, the boogity to the boogity beat Now what you hear is not a test, I'm rapping to the beat And me, the groove, and my friends are gonna try to move your feet

You see, I am Wonder Mike and I like to say hello Up to the black, to the white, the red and the brown, to the purple and yellow But first I gotta bang, bang the boogie to the boogie Say up, jump the boogie to the bang, bang boogie Let's rock, you don't stop, rock the rhythm and I'll make your body rock Well so far you've heard my voice, but I brought two friends along. And next on the mic is my man Hank. Come on, Hank, sing that song.

Check it out. Well, I'm imp the dim, the ladies pimp, the women fight for my delight. But I'm the grandmaster with the three MCs that shock the house. For the young ladies and when you come inside. So that was the first commercially successful hip-hop record, Rapper's Delight by the Sugar Hill Gang. And my guest is Questlove, whose new book is called Hip-Hop is History. You know, you were talking about the importance of sampling. When you say hip-hop is history, the title of your book,

hip-hop is literally history in the sense that it's always referring back to the past by sampling things. So hip-hop includes history. I'd like you to choose one of your favorite records for what it samples and how that adds to the recording. And I'm going to suggest that you choose something other than Public Enemy only because you've talked about them. We've heard you talk about them on the show before, so I want to hear something else. All right. I'll give you probably a better example because oftentimes people ask me, you know, what makes a record hip-hop? I saw the Rolling Stones recently, and I was trying to explain to people that, you know, when hip-hop generation here is honky-tonk women, like, we go crazy over it because there's a drum break in there.

You know what I mean? And so I was trying to explain to somebody younger that, yes, this is a classic Rolling Stones song, but to the hip-hop generation, this is a hip-hop song because of that drum break at the beginning. And it was kind of head-scratching. But sometimes non-hip-hop songs can become hip-hop classics. So for me, one of the groups that did the most creative level of sampling to me was De La Soul. And they were the first to really go outside the lines.

Like, you know, in the first 10 years or whatnot, you would choose danceable funk records as your musical backdrop. that and you start sampling things that aren't perceived as hip-hop or even black music creations, but yet and still it can be reframed as hip-hop. So here's a great example. De La Soul's second album, De La Soul is dead. Their opening song is a song called Oodles of O's, which is like one of my favorite tracks of theirs. And the musical backdrop of it is a very non-hip-hop song. It's a song called Diamonds on My Windshield by Tom Waits. Now, isolated on its own, if I were to play that in the club, everybody would look at me like I'm crazy. Like, are you playing this post-Jack Kerouac poetry thing? And yeah, it sounds weird. But now that hip hop heads know that De La Soul used that sample, it's almost like you have a different relationship with it. So for me, the best hip hop songs are the songs that are created from musical sources that are absolutely the left of what hip-hop is known to be.

Okay, well, let's hear De La Soul. Yeah. And once an embryo Am I solid gold? I don't cast a glow Yes, I guess it's reflect Some have no control I'd rather let her laugh Than entirely off my dough Can you win up the river Or out into the hole? You just know me not so

Not made alone Some are lovey-dovey I hear clinking throat Some shake your hand But this is called show I was John Donar Mr. Golico Piss with the witness

Of how I had gone O's got the world O's was on tour. Girls gave the O's and guys O's for sure. Where they arose, well, nobody knows. What do they mean? Well, here's how it goes. No shit's got the O's when you hold a dough.

You know who you are, but they didn't know. And now with respect, they flex like a pro. You're first another n***a, but now an athro. Oodles and oodles and O's and oodles and oodles and oodles of oodles. You know they're giving oodles and oodles and oodles. That was DLSoul sampling Tom Waits, a track chosen by my guest Questlove, whose new book is called Hip Hop is History. It's time for a short break, so we'll be right back.

This is Fresh Air. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. Last year, Questlove was asked to put together a segment for the Grammys celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. He said yes before realizing all the drama this would involve. While inviting some people to perform, he'd also have to be the bad cop saying no to others. After negotiating for more time for the segment,

he was given 13 minutes. On the night of the Grammys, during the ceremony, one of his big-name performers dropped out because security wouldn't let him return to his seat while a performance was in progress, and that made the rapper feel disrespected. That created a four-minute hole in Questlove's presentation. To make things even worse, when the Rap Album of the Year was announced right before the Hip Hop History segment, another performer walked out because he didn't win and he was supposed to be the closing artist in Questlove's segment. Questlove was facing a last minute fiasco. So what did he do? I'll tell you what I did.

We had about six minutes left and I told them, like, find me an isolated closet. I'm going to go sit in there and meanwhile like everyone's waiting for me for direction they're like wait what are you doing in there and I was like I'm sitting in silence and meditating you're doing your breathing exercise yeah because you can't make any decisions if you're in a state of panic and I needed to just get my zen moment and yes there were six minutes till air and everyone is waiting outside that door. Like, what are you doing in there?

I'm meditating. And they thought I was crazy. So I said, I need four minutes. They're like, but we need to solve the problem. I waited for four minutes and then I thought about it. I said,

okay, I know that little Uzi vert who has the song of the moment is sitting in that audience. We can do his song. The thing is, who can I get to convince him to do it? Now, I have Jay-Z's number and I have DJ Drama, who's one of Uzi's like mentors from Philadelphia. I have his number. I already know that Jay-Z's kind of the king of no you know whereas you're the king of yes yeah and you know I understand that he has a brand and

the whole world's at you know tucking at the the garment of the emperor so I sent a text to DJ Drum and says hey I need you to tell his management that when we go into a song, just bum rust the stage, grab the microphone, and do the chorus. And if not, just do the dance and the video, and it'll be a victory. And I pressed send, and then I realized at that moment my battery was dead. The message never went through. So I'm now panicking like the entire world is going to blame me for ruining hip hop's 50th birthday party because I have no ending. And at the very last minute, I yelled to LL Cool J. I said, look, when I point to you, I want you to give me one of those like Friday night lights. Like we're down by a field goal, like inspiration, coach speeches to the players about what hip-hop

means to the culture. I figured like, you know, from Baltimore to Bali, from Brooklyn to the Bronx, this is hip-hop, baby. You know, like one of those things. And he was kind of confused. I was just like, yo, I need you to give me one of your motivation speeches when I tell you about what hip-hop means and wrap it up in 10 seconds. Meanwhile, you know, everything's going smooth, and right when we get to the last artist, I'm like, okay, LL, time for the speech, and go. And I don't see LL. The problem is the way that the stage is designed,

I'm at a weird angle in which I can't see what's happening on stage. I'm on the side, so I don't hear anything. And I'm immediately taking it personal. I'm about to have a panic attack on stage. I'm on the side, so I don't hear anything. And I'm immediately taking it personal. I'm about to have a panic attack on stage. We get through it. I'm about to literally hyperventilate, and I'm running to the dressing room, and my band walks in all celebratory like, that was so incredible. That was so incredible. And I'm like, what are you guys talking about? We've ruined hip hop. What are you talking about? And're like little Uzi Vert ran on stage and I was like no he didn't my message never went through it's like he ran on stage and did it and I didn't believe them one of them pulls

out their phone and instantly shows me Twitter and sure enough Uzi Vert must have gotten the message and they're like message? I charged my phone and show them that I sent a begging text of him to jump on stage that never went through. And all I can say was, I believe that was the power of meditation. He got that message, even though the text never went through. And I vowed never again to allow myself that situation, that level of stress. And what do I do? Eight months later, I agreed to a two-hour version of that same performance. So, you know, I never learned my lesson. Let's get to another phase of music, and that is rap records about guns and gangsters and drugs. And it's been a theme in hip-hop for decades now.

And I wonder how you related to it when it started as a music lover and just as a man and how you relate to it now? That's a loaded question. Because the thing is, I get quasi-uncomfortable in answering that question because I feel like... I don't mean it as an accusation against the music, but it is. Well, no, no. But the thing is that we live in a period in which most people will immediately associate some of the most darkest things about the music, to rap music as a monolith. You know, there was one time in the pandemic when I was like, wait a minute, where I was getting a country and I was like, wait a minute,

they're saying the same stuff that we say, but this is never, like their feet is never held to the fire on just the level of misogyny and gun toting and gun slinging um so thus i will say that um for me chuck d once explained that hip-hop is young black america's cnn meaning um if you really want to know what is happening with us right now, this is what's happening that you won't hear on the news. The same way that I tell parents now, if you want to know what your kids are going through, watch Euphoria on HBO. And get terrified.

Yeah. And they also be like, oh, that is the truth. Oh my God, you're right. You're totally And get terrified. And yes, just like with movies, gangster films and and and like violent television shows like people will gravitate to that more than, say, watching Bob Ross paint, you know, on on on PBS. B.S., of course, if anything's shinier or explosive or attention-getting, it's going to get that much more attention. But I don't know. It's hard to answer that question. I grew up in a time period in which that seemed exciting. Like, you know, I'll take an example. When N.W.A.'s Straight Outta Compton album came out, I was jaw dropped because, you know, to me, I had never heard that level of honesty before about what happens on the streets, like put into song form. Like I knew it because I had friends and I had cousins and all that stuff that were about that life. And you hear about it in everyday conversation, but not to the point where it's that. To me, where it started to get

confusing was when a lot of my white friends I was going to school with were kind of co-signing it. And also, in their minds, it was like, oh, this is what authentic black life is like. And, I mean, we're learning now that everything's not a monolith. You know what I mean? So it's, you can't blanket the whole entire culture behind that it's just that it makes the most noise because it's it's better in a soundbite or a sound quote of what this rapper said that said but you know for every nwa you throw at me i can also throw you uh the jungle brothers or queen latifah but you, who's the person that's going to elevate that to equal status

so that gets attention as well? My guest is Questlove. His new book is called Hip Hop is History. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. Hey there, Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Baldonado here with a preview of our latest Fresh Air Plus bonus episode. I mean, there's a world which you, as a woman,

no matter how successful you are, you can't enter into. You're not part of a network. You know, it takes you a long time, let's say. That's the late architect Zaha Hadid speaking with Terry 20 years ago. Listen back with us and get all Fresh Air episodes completely sponsor-free by joining Fresh Air Plus at plus.npr.org. So I want to play a song that I know you like a lot. And this is Mac Miller and his song 2009 from a 2018

album called swimming and can you talk about the importance of this song in the history of hip-hop and in your music listening history well first of all you know I chose this song because as as a musician I listen to inflection. I listen to delivery. I listen to a melodic approach. And of course, it's also like the words that you're saying are important as well. That's why when people ask, what made Rakim so great? All of hip hop says, or at least older hip hop says that Rakim is God. Because Rakim's delivery was that of like John Coltrane's delivery and how John Coltrane changed jazz music. Rakim had the same pattern as John Coltrane, like would do these rhythmic

patterns never heard before. Mac Miller, what I really love the most about him is I love honesty and you can't get honest unless you're vulnerable. And it's very tempting in this culture, in this art form, to put your shield on and to really not let people inside of your soul to see what you're really going through. Because again, we're taught to just chase the hit and nothing else. And Mac Miller kind of used his platform to talk about his life and what he's going through. And I think that's why he resonated with so much of his generation before he passed away,

uh, before his unfortunate passing. But, um, yeah, man, Mac Miller is, his generation before he passed away, before his unfortunate passing. But yeah, man, Mac Miller is, even the work he left, I mean, I almost see Mac Miller almost in the same way as people see Jeff Buckley's work. You know, like an artist whose work, even though they're not here anymore, it still resonates with a particular audience. And that's what Mac Miller, that's how I feel his music. That's how it feels to me.

I'm really glad you mentioned his inflection because it's really good. And so one of the lines in the song is, It ain't 2009 no more, I know it's behind that door. So talk about what happened, the significance of 2009. You know, I mean, he had a lot of struggles. Depression. Yeah, with depression. Addiction. Yes, and addiction. And he was very kind of forthcoming with his life struggles. And as you see how I divide these chapters up in this book, each chapter is divided by hip-hop is determined by the kind of drug of choice, the way that we choose to self-medicate

when we don't know how to deal with those dark emotions. And look, it's an everyday struggle for me. Depression? Yeah, just every day I got to wake up and I think I said it before, like, you know, I got to do my affirmations. I got to coach myself in the mirror every morning, even before I spoke to you, like every day for 15 minutes, I have to, to, to, to say my, my morning mantras and to, to set my 24 hours. This is how I'm going to get through these 24 hours and, and psych myself into seizing the moment to not self-sabotaging myself and,

and get through the day. Cause I know the world is dependent on me to lead. And, you know, I'm going from a reluctant leader to slow leader. You know, I'm kind of comfortable with it now. But I want to be to the point where I just own it without question. But yeah, every day I wake up scared of my shadow and I have to get myself out of that. Do you feel like you have to, uh, get into the zone of being Questlove? You know what I mean? As opposed to being a mirror?

Well, I, I have to get in the zone to not lose a mere Thompson. Oh, like to be Questlove is to be Superman. To be Amir Thompson is to be Clark Kent. So let's get back to the next recording we're going to play, the Mac Miller. Yes. 2009. So just tell us again, like, what 2009 means in the context of that song. He had broken up with the woman he was dating.

It was the beginning of social media and that sort of thing. And he got in a car accident. That was a near-death moment for him, in which he really had a reflective moment. He was DUI. Yeah. Driving under the influence of... Exactly.

So to me, this would have been a confessional moment for him, a really confessional, vulnerable moment, which is rarely not seen in hip-hop to this level. Yeah. And the song, the way I hear it, if I'm hearing it correctly, is about giving up drugs. Yeah, like a turnaround. And feeling more alive as a result.

But, I mean, he died of an accidental overdose soon after the album was released. It's an everyday struggle. It's an everyday struggle. My version of falling off the wagon is nowhere close to, you know, this level of falling off the wagon. But again, if I don't do my morning routine, everything's out of whack. And there's some moments where you just want to hide under the sheets and not face the world. And I totally understand that, where you turn a new leaf.

And then there's some moments where you don't feel like putting the weight on your shoulders and i i understand that and that's why i chose this song yeah well let's hear it all right well i don't need to lie no more nowadays all, all I do is shine, take a breath and ease my mind. She don't cry no more. She tell me that I get her high cause the angels supposed to fly. I ain't asking why no more. Oh no, I take it if it's mine. I don't stay inside the lines.

It ain't 2009 no more. Yeah, I know what's behind that door. Yeah, okay, you gotta jump in to swim well the light was dim and it's light percent now every day i wake up and breathe i don't have it all but that's all right with me take it nice and easy took a flight to see me send you back home with a light that's beaming the whole team bout to figure it out We ice cold, that's what winter about And sometimes, sometimes

I wish I took a simpler route Instead of having demons that's as big as my house Have a ball with a dribble and bounce Cause the party ain't over till they kicking me out Isn't it funny we can make a lot of money Buy a lot of things just to feel a lot of ugly I was gay, high, and muddy Looking for what was looking for me

That was Mac Miller, the track 2009 from his album Swimming. And, you know, you were talking about vulnerability and how a lot of, like, like hip hop records don't show vulnerability. I think a lot of hip hop artists come from an environment where showing vulnerability means people are going to try to take advantage of those vulnerabilities. And so you can't show them. It's unsafe to show them. Emotions are seen as weakness. Emotions are seen as humanity, which really wasn't allowed for African-Americans for the first 400 years of our existence here. For a lot of us, this is the most I've ever heard. I would never tell

anyone I was in therapy maybe before. I mean, if I'm dating someone, I'll tell her like, yeah, you know, I've been in therapy for like 23 years and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But I wouldn't, if you were bringing that up in an interview or I'd, I've been interviewing with you since what, the nineties.. I would never allow... My purpose for this is, hey, let's sell my book. Let's talk about this album. Let's talk about this song. But now that I have...

I lost the shield of not having fear. And really just explaining that that's what's going to save us. Because the thing is, is that what people, the kind of pandemic crisis that we're facing that no one's really acknowledging is our early exit, especially in hip hop culture. I mean, right now, as I speak to you, I'm just finding out that Brother Marquise of the 2 Live Crew just passed away today. So that's like, my whole thing is like, wow, will we have senior citizens in hip hop?

Who's going to be 65 and still with us? Like, this is why, like why like ice tea still being here with us amazing flavor flave chuck d like the fact that they're inching to 65 like is a miracle and you know who who of us is going to get to their 90s as quincy jones is doing right now, you know. And oftentimes the not being allowed to express emotions, and again, it's generational. Since our days on the plantation, you weren't allowed to express anger, sadness, happiness, joy, like any of those emotions.

And now, like, most of humanity doesn't know how to deal with dark emotions. You know, Tariq Trotter, Black Thought, who is a member of The Roots and he's like the lead rapper in The Roots. He had a memoir that was published recently and our co-host Tanya Mosley interviewed him about it. And it was really interesting, and part of the interview was about how his mother was murdered and how that changed his life and how you and your family basically took him in. And you were already good friends, but, you know, it sounds like he lived with you for a while. He didn't live with us, but, you know, that was like, it's so weird that that was also like one of the most volatile times in my life. You know, to live in the crack era of the 80s was to have parents that were overbearing, overprotective. And I just felt so smothered. And I didn't realize until, you know, my dad

explained on his deathbed that you don't know the fear of what it is to live 24 hours not knowing if your son is going to, you know, survive another 24 hours because I was always me. You know, most people learn to sort of transform and morph into their environment to protect themselves. But, you know, I'm this weirdo, arty kid living in West Philadelphia at the time. And Tariq and I just really had a bond and a love for the music in a way that I grew up with adults and adults only because I lived on the road with my father. So I didn't have— Yeah, because he was a musician and toured. Yes.

You worked with him. You were like a member of the crew. Traveling on my father's roadshow, there were no other kids born in my age range. So I only knew who adults were and kind of went through life thinking like I had a unique gift. Like I'm the only 13 year old that plays drums like this, like no other kid is doing this. So when I went to performing arts school, that was an eyeopening moment that not only were there talented kids, but I wasn't even the most talented. Like I was on the bottom half, but when Tariq announced to me his, his mother passing away, um, she was violently stabbed. And that was one of the first major tragedies I had to learn to deal with. Like, again, we knew about the crack epidemic and the many ways that it pulls you and sucks you in to the point where you might have to sell it to survive,

where you might not be able to cope with life so you start using, or you have to live with someone that has an addiction and their actions put you in a position where they're either victimizing you or someone else and then suddenly you get sucked into their drama for the most part i've been living with that fear of like from 1985 on his mom gets murdered in 1990 and coming to grips with that level of reality um was was a hard thing to do like i didn't know how to comfort someone i didn't know i never dealt with a tragedy of that level. But, you know, my mom just told me, like, you know,

you guys are like brothers already. Like, you have to be there for him. And, you know, I appreciate the fact that he didn't push me or turn me away because, you know, I've seen situations where tragedy happens and that person just checks out and becomes a hermit and lets depression take over. Even in the memoir, or at least in the interview he did with Tanya, he talked about how your family and you basically saved his life because he could have easily gone in the opposite direction. You know, he kind of said it in a joking manner once Bel-Air situation where they literally took him back to his South Philly home, packed a bag and shipped him

to a part of Michigan where like a rich uncle lived to save his life, that sort of thing. And at the time I thought like, oh, well, that's over. I guess our musical dreams are in the past. Like, he just disappeared. And thank God, you know, he came back to Philadelphia that summer, and I think that's when he and I really discussed, like, let's take this thing seriously. It's one thing to call ourselves a group in high school, but now that we're not in school anymore, like, let's take this thing seriously. It's one thing to call ourselves a group in high school,

but now that we're not in school anymore, like, what are we going to do? And my home was always an open door. That's how the crashing on my couch, that's literally how the roots came to be. We saw a commercial on television that we said, we could do that too. And seconds later, we're on the corners busking and that leads us to where we are right now. But yeah, my family was there for him because he's a brother. It's almost like a domestic partner. I think Tariq is the most central, consistent relationship I've had with any human in life. This is our 37th year as a partnership, but it's not like, you know, I moved out my house and I might see my mom like

occasionally once a month or that sort of thing. But I believe that since 87, since school and since our struggle to get a record deal to getting a record deal to where we are now, Tariq Trotter is the one human being that I've seen once a week for the last 37 years. So, you know, this is kind of a domestic marriage almost, if you put it that way. Yeah. Were you able to talk emotionally about what it meant that his mother was murdered or did you just kind of talk about you know music and collaborating you know so weird um i was when he announced that to me when he told me the news i thought okay now i gotta get to this level where I'm emotionally there for him and there's going to be a lot of crying and all that stuff.

And it wasn't that. And I just made him a mixtape. And he, music was always our communication. Tariq and I really didn't start talking about emotions or how we felt or any of those things until the pandemic, which is why I maintain that, you know, in 2020, you were going to arrive in this new place where we are right now and accept the change, or you're going to stay stuck and try to chase the past and it's not going to work out well for you. And what's really weird is, um, I had to do a quote unquote homework assignment where, you know, my counselor's telling me that I have to have these conversations with my friends about like where I am in life right now and how I know I'm not really big on expressing myself and, and communicating. I kind of want you to read my mind, that sort of thing.

And, um, what's weird is that I thought I was explaining a whole new language to Tariq. Like, okay, so I'm doing this thing, you know, I'm doing like therapy and I'm listening to this guy, Dr. Joe Dispenza. And, you know, Tariq's like, yeah, I know Dr. Joe. Yeah, I started reading him like four years. And I'm like, wait, you read psychological therapy books? Yeah, man, I've been in therapy. Wait, you're in therapy? Yeah, man, I've been in therapy. Wait, you're in therapy? Yeah, man. And it's like the way we laughed that we were so scared to kind of, again, it's the whole, it leads back to vulnerability.

Exactly. It leads back to that. So, yes, when his mom died, I didn't know how to express myself. And it was just like I kind of figured okay let me just normally just be there for him as if this were an arbitrary day and my job was always to feed him music like once a week you know i was trying to groom him into like his role right now as a musician as an artist and you should know what these songs are so i just made him a bunch of mixtapes during that period, and that was kind of our love language.

And I still do it now when I make these mixes for people. That's my love language to people. My guest is Questlove. His new book is called Hip Hop is History. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. I would love to talk more, but I'm being told we have to give up the studio. But I want to end with some more music.

And I know you love to shine a light on people who you think are underappreciated, but are really terrific. Would you like to choose a track to end with? I would love to. In celebration of Lauryn Hill making Apple Music's number one album, probably one of the last songs that she performed on that's really notable that shows you that she still has a lot of magic to give. There's a song called Nobody that's on nas's uh king's disease 2 album it's with nas and miss lauren hill and to me i get goosebumps listening to it simply because she's still magical and i know that term gets thrown around a lot but yes she's magical and her voice is so needed right now in ways you can't imagine like the way that

she inspired people like her success enabled my success to happen that's how magical the lauren hill effect was and so uh yeah nobody by naz and miss lauren hill is one of my favorites one of those unsung favorites from his King Disease album. Questlove, it's so great to talk with you. Thank you. And I want to just thank you, too, for talking about vulnerability. I think it's really important. That's going to be the theme for every project I do henceforth.

I'm just wrapping up my Slam the Family Stone documentary right now, and that's going to play a major part in the narrative. I look forward to seeing it when it's done. Yeah. Thank you again, and congratulations on your new book. Thank you. All my time has been focused on my freedom now. Why would I join them when I know that I can beat them now? They put their words on me, and they can eat them now. That's probably why they keep on telling me I'm needed now.

They try to box me out while taking what they want from me. I spent too many years living too uncomfortably. Making room for people who didn't like the labor, but wanted the spoils. Greedy, selfish behavior. Now let me give it to you balanced and with clarity. I don't need to turn myself into a parody. I don't do the shit you do for popularity. They clearly didn't understand when I said I get out apparently.

My awareness like Keanu in the Matrix. I'm saving souls and y'all complaining about my lateness. Now it's illegal for someone to walk in greatness. They want the same, they want the same, but they don't take risks. Now the world will get to see its own reflections. And the anointed can pursue their own direction. And if you're wrong and you're too proud to hear correction, walk into the hole you dug yourself a projection. See me in my freedom taking all my land back. That's Nobody by Nas featuring Lauryn Hill, the track Questlove chose to end our interview.

Questlove's new book is called Hip Hop is History. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be actor and writer Rob McElhenney. He co-created and co-stars in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the longest-running live-action TV sitcom. In 2020, he bought a Welsh soccer team with Ryan Reynolds.

The team's successes and struggles is the subject of the documentary series Welcome to Wrexhamham I hope you'll join us fresh airs executive producer is Danny Miller our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salat, Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Joe Wolfram.

Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesker. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.