Fresh Air - Questlove On Sly Stone And The Burden Of Black Genius

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

For the holiday weekend, we're revisiting our recent interview with Questlove. His documentary, SLY LIVES! (aka The Burden of Black Genius), examines Sly Stone's enormous impact on music — and the price he paid for it. "Sly will invent the alphabet for which most of pop and R&B or Black music will write from for the next 60 years," Questlove says. "We're still writing from his dictionary to this day."Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is Ira Glass, the host of This American Life. So much is changing so rapidly right now with President Trump in office. It feels good to pause for a moment sometimes and look around at what's what. To try and do that, we've been finding these incredible stories about right now that are funny and have feeling and you get to see people everywhere making sense of this new America that we find ourselves in. This American Life, wherever you get your podcasts. This is Fresh Air. I'm Terri Gross.

Today, as we kick off the unofficial start of the summer, we'll listen back to my interview with Amir Kwestlev-Thompson recorded earlier this year about the life and legacy of Sly Stone. Thank you for letting me be myself again. Thank you for letting me be myself again. Questlove's documentary called Sly Lives, aka The Burden of Black Genius, is about Sly Stone and his band Sly and the Family Stone and their impact on music and culture. Sly got his start as a DJ and record

producer in the early 1960s, formed a multiracial band with his brother, sister, and other musicians, and went on to record hits like Everyday People, Dance to the Music, Family Affair, and Stand. Their music influenced Prince, George Clinton and Funkadelic, the Ohio Players, Earth, Wind & Fire, and many hip-hop artists. The film also covers the problems that came along with fame and drugs that took Sly down. Questlove is the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for The Tonight Show, starring Jimmy Fallon.

He had another documentary that came out this year, focused on Saturday Night Live's music guests and music sketches over the past 50 years. That one's called, Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music. Questlove's 2021 film, Summer of Soul, featuring performances from the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival,

won an Oscar for Best Documentary. So let's talk about your slide documentary. I really love this film. I want to start with a song and it's their first big hit. It's dance to the music. It's so catchy and I'd like you to point out what makes this song special in its moment, which was 1967 or eight? Uh, this is 1968. Okay. So what makes this song so special in its moment? Sly will invent the alphabet for which most of pop and, uh,

R&B or black music will write from for the next 60 years. We're still writing from his dictionary to this day. So, okay, we have a four-minute song to make. How many micro songs can we have in this particular song? In other words, a typical Sly the Family Stone song has a bunch of elements that will grab everybody. Like most songs will just have one specific hook, like this is the chorus, this is my hook, okay, here are my lyrics.

Instead, Sly will do a four bar part that's like earworm, you know, like that will grab you and then he'll do another four bars that will grab someone else. So, you know, lyrically and melodic-wise, his formula is also the world's funkiest nursery rhyme music. Like, look at Everyday People, his number one hit. Everyone knows Everyday People. Everyday People is basically the schoolyard version, like the lyrics of that song, the melody of that song, is basically schoolyard taunting. Nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan. There is a black one who doesn't like the...

And his whole thing is like, if it can appeal to a kid, to a first grader, then melodically you have them. And rhythmically, his rhythm section, Gregorico on drums and Larry Graham on bass, specifically Larry Graham's right thumb are probably the two most revolutionary aspects of Sly's music. And that's because Larry Graham is a bass player who used to play in bands without a drummer. So as a result, he would have to hit his bass in a very specific way so that you could feel the rhythm because there's no drummer there. And of course, once he's in the Sly system,

he invents kind of a thumping plucking thing, which I guess most of your listeners would probably be familiar with the way that the Seinfeld theme sounds, or the way that Flea plays in the Red Hot Chili Peppers, like with his thumb. Larry Graham from Sly and the Family Stone, uh, AKA Drake's uncle. Um... you know... Oh, really? Literally?

Yeah, Larry Graham is... well, you know, Drake's name is Aubrey Graham. Drake's father is Larry Graham's brother. Anytime I show this movie to someone under the age of 30, they're like, wait, is that Drake's father? I'm like, no, that's his uncle. Um, because they look alike. But yeah, he revolutionized a way to play bass.

And so, I mean, pretty much he just invented the idea of like ear candy, like a whole bunch of micro ideas inside of one three-minute song. And that's the genius of Sly Stone. All right. Thank you for that. Let's hear a of Slystone. All right, thank you for that. Let's hear Dance to the Music. The music. All we need is a drummer for people who only need a beatin', yeah. I'm gonna add a little good talk and make it easy to move your feet I'm gonna add some bottom so that the dance of the gist won't hide

Right. ["Ride and Ride"] You might like to hear my organs. I said ride solid right now. Cynthia! Yeah! What? If I could hear the horns blow, Cynthia on the throne. Yeah!

Listen to me, Cynthia and Jerry got a message that said, All the squares blow out! So that was Sly and the Family Stones, 1968 hit, Dance to the Music. And the drumming is so infectious. It's like, it's hard not to move when you hear that. And it's not fancy. So what people don't know is that Sly basically considered Dance to the Music like his sellout song. Sly had released this really intelligent debut album called A Whole New Thing, which is probably my favorite album of his entire canon, but it was way too wordy, way too smart, way too nerdy, just so ahead of its time that only a certain few latched on to it.

And the rejection of that album kind of depressed Sly and his label said, look, you know, like you're doing way too much. You know, you're doing way too much. You got to simplify it. People aren't as smart as you are. You know, like you're doing way too much. You know, you're doing way too much. You gotta simplify it. People aren't as smart as you are. Like instead of you being the smartest guy in the room, be a relatable guy in the room.

Like people just wanna dance to the music and kind of in a very bitter scoffy way. Like he's like, all right, well, people wanna dance to the music, fine. And so he did a very sarcastic thing. And so he's like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music, fine. And so he did a very sarcastic thing. And so he's like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music, fine. I'm going to make a song, and I'm

going to teach them how to dance to my music. And essentially, Dance to the Music is an instructional introduction on who we are. Hey, I play the bass. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. I play the drums. G, G, G, G, G, G, G. I play the keyboards. And literally, that play the bass. I play the drums. I play the keyboards. Literally, that's the song.

There's no lyrics to the song, it's just a sing-along. But what Sly doesn't realize is that in his very sarcastic, bitter middle finger type of way, he includes everybody and people grasp to it. And so, it, Dance of the Music is one of those accidental number one songs that he didn't intend on catching on. It was more of like a, just a bitter, here, you guys want, you know, regular food instead of this, you know, meal I cooked up for you, fine, take your sandwich and get out of here. And

people gravitated towards it, so. But there's a lot going on in that song, including like the kind of scatting part. Yeah, so what he includes is, you know, a very, you know, the drum beat that is played there is kind of a precursor to what we will call four on the floor. And ten years later, four on the floor will just be, you know, whereas in the 60s, four on the floor means that the snare, the kick and the hi-hat are all doing,

chh, chh, chh, chh, chh, chh, chh, chh, chh. You know, it's teaching your body how to dance to it. 10 years later, they'll take the snare and the hi-hat away and it'll just be the kick. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And that will be the disco rhythm. You know, what we call Boots and Cats. Boots, cats, boots, cats, boots and cats.

So Sly will basically kind of give you the prototype of what will be the disco pulse in the late 60s, but you know, he's writing the blueprint of what modern dance music will be in disco pulse in the late 60s, but he's writing the blueprint of what modern dance music will be in 10 years. But then he also does a lot of things that become beats for hip hop artists later. Yes, so again, Sly believes in micro examples. Another artist will make one hook, one melody, one lyric,

you know, like just one thing, whereas Sly will probably try to cram in seven ideas at the same time. Like Sly puts a lot of attention to harmony, which is a church thing. So that makes people feel comfortable like, oh, they went to church because they sing harmonious. But then Sly knows the importance of unison. Unison singing is where everyone sings in the same register. So like, you know, think of the idea of like when Billy Joel's Piano Man comes on, you know, that's the type of song that you hear in a bar and, you know, everyone sings together as they hold their mug of beer and, you know, sing along.

So that's a very inclusive type of thing. So when everyone's singing in the same key without harmony, it's not intimidating. Like the worst singer and the best singer can unify. So he knew the power of unison singing, which is included, and harmony singing, which is included, and harmony singing, which is a spectacle and type of dance rhythms and innovative bass sounds. Like just every new idea that was unexplored in 1967, 68, and 69, Sly was the pioneer and

the first person to do those things. So I want to play another Sly track and talk about it with you because I found the film so interesting in really pointing to specifically what makes Sly's music so interesting and catchy and why so many people kind of, as you put it, use his vocabulary. So I want to play Everyday People because this has significance in a lot of ways. I mean, Sly's band is made up of black and white musicians, male and female musicians, and everyday people speaks to inclusivity. So can you talk about that a little bit in terms of the types of music that are drawn on in Sly's music and the kind of inclusivity that he represented within the band and in some of his lyrics?

Um, Sly's role, um, Vernon Reed of Living Color kind of painted that, you know, this marks the first time that a black singer is kind of stepping out of the roles that we were traditionally playing. Before Sly, it was like you were strictly singing about love songs, in particular about relationships. You really weren't giving any commentary about everyday life or things that are relatable in the present to the audience that you're serving. It's almost like music before Sly was almost a fantasy, if you will,

like a means to escape your present situation. Sly uses his music as a means to sell humanity and everyday people's a great example where he's essentially saying that hey like I breathe air like you do I bleed like you do I there's some things that we have in common there's some things that we don't have in common, but we're all the same person. And sometimes, especially during that period, during the civil rights period, especially with that time in which Martin Luther King has died and Malcolm X has died and Mecca Ephrath has died and the Kennedys died and kind of the dream of the civil rights period died. That kind of messaging at the time seemed very necessary for, you know, there was questions

in the air like what do we do now? So, Slyde kind of accidentally inserts himself in the leadership position, kind of in the name of just trying to find relatable content to his lyrics because a lot of his music is very self-confessional and very relatable, kind of in a way that Dylan was also affecting, with his songs at the time. And I guess Sly wound up being the unofficial spokesperson for Black people. 1969. The drama and then makes no difference what you put in I have every day people There is a blue one and a green one for living on the path Trying to do the same one if one is close, what if I'm close?

So when it's so, when it's good, it'll be good We've got to live together You know better, neither are you We are the same in whatever we do You love me, you hate me, you know me And then you can't figure out the bag I'm in I have everything you want And everything can go on, yeah, yeah There is a line that doesn't like the shore Therefore being such a bridge

One that will not have the power One that will not have the strength One that will not have the strength And so, and so, and it's good that we do Ooh, it's so strong So that was Everyday People, which as you pointed out, has a kind of nursery rhyme part to it. Yeah. There is a...

Yeah, and that has, like I said, the message of inclusivity and togetherness. But as someone in your documentary points out, that alienated a lot of black listeners in the sense that, you know, police were beating up black people, which of course you could say today as well. But it was a very, of course, you could say today as well. But it was a very, um, it was, and also, like,

Black Power was becoming a thing. It was risky. Yeah, it was risky because, again, this song is released right on the edge of the razor. Like, there's always a time in American history, and, you know, today is no different. Um, there's always a time in American history and, you know, today is no different. There's always a time in American history where we're just right on the edge,

right on the precipice of, like, you know, a kind of... explosive end result, you know? And for someone to sort of come in waving a proverbial, white flag, that's a risky thing because, one, we do see the evidence of the abuse that's given, but it's also like who's going to be the first person to kind of come to half court, you know, to the 50-yard line. Who's gonna cross the aisle and, you know, start a kumbaya moment and sort of dismantles whatever conflicts that we have? And that's the role that Sly's music played.

Whereas, you know, the messaging of his music was always encouraging, always, you know, a cheerleader of justice and a cheerleader of positivity. And unfortunately, even though the music spoke of that optimism,, he was sort of falling apart at the seams because there's a pressure of, or a burden, which is why we call it the burden of black genius. There's a burden when one puts themselves in that position where they often have to come up with the solutions or the answers to why society is the way it is. We're listening to the interview I recorded earlier this year with Amir Kwestlove Thompson or the answers to why society is the way it is. We're listening to the interview I recorded earlier this year with Amir Kwestlov Thompson about his documentary,

Sly Lives, AKA The Burden of Black Genius. It's streaming on Hulu. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Ad. fresh air. I'm Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. At a time of sound bites and short attention spans, our show is all about the deep dive. We do long-form interviews with people behind the best in film, books, TV, music, and journalism. Here our guests open up about their process and their lives in ways you've never heard before Listen to the fresh air podcast from NPR and WHYY

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So you can easily squeeze them in between meetings and on your way to that thing, listen to the NPR News Now podcast now. Well, you know, on the same album as Everyday People, his message about inclusivity, he has the song Stand. That's a message to take a stand, stand up for your rights, you know, demand your rights. Mm-hmm. And that resonated a lot within the black community.

Stand proud, yes. Yeah, so talk a little bit about that song and why you think that song is important musically and in terms of the message of the lyrics. So basically Sly makes the song Stand and song and why you think that song is important musically and in terms of the message of the lyrics. So basically Sly makes the song stand and he completes the song and he has a kind of a test pressing demo made of it. And you know he takes this record demo to Whiskey a Go-Go in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard, which was the nightclub of the moment. He gives the DJ the 45 to play.

The DJ puts it on, it's like a proto disco in 1969 where teenagers are dancing in the club. The teenagers are dancing and the song ends, and Sly was, like, really disappointed. He's like, man, like, the song didn't hit the way I wanted it to. And at the time, the girl that he was with was like, well, you know, you didn't put a get-down part in. And he's like, well, what do you mean?

He's like, you gotta have a part in the song that just, like, wakes people up and makes them want to, like, well, what do you mean? He's like, you got to have a part in the song that just like wakes people up and makes them want to like, really get down. And he's like, oh, get down part. And so he leaves the club that night. And around 1 in the morning, he calls the band together and says, hey, we need to add something to the song that really just wakes it up out of nowhere.

So kind of in the last minute and 15 seconds of the song, this tension building kind of structure of the lyrics comes to this feverish like climatic end where the song totally changes from what it was to something totally completely different. And he creates a get down part. What we will now know is a break beat. You know the part of the song that sparks magic that makes people really want to dance and

get down to it. And I kind of think that was Sly's nod to the black community. You know because by that point Sly was such a pop hit but he really didn't have much numbers on the board for his black audience. Like when he first came out the box, his white audience immediately latched on to him. And sometimes I know with certain black artists, even though it's unspoken, one of the burdens of black genius is sometimes like the burden of being white people's favorite black person. You know, that's that's often like kind of a mark of shame like,

man, I got to get right with my people first before the rest of the world loves me. So I almost feel as though in a sort of code switch way, he wanted to add a part to that song that really made black people say, oh, okay, he's still down with us. You know, so he adds this really funky part at the end that really solidifies his genius.

So let's play that transitional part. So we hear some of the main song and then we hear what it transitions to at the end. in your mind if you want to be Everybody! Hey! Hey! Say! Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Say! Na na Na na Na na na na na na na na

Na na Na na Na na na na na na na na na Na na Na na na na na na na na na So that was Stand, which is on the same 1969 album as Everyday People. And those two songs have a kind of contrast, like I said before, inclusivity and like stand up for your rights. And at this time, it's a catchy song,

but it's also like a message song. And the Panthers, the Black Panthers, who are very active at this time, it's 1969, become really interested in Sly. And there's this really interesting part of the movie that talks about how the Panthers said, you need to join our group, or you need to donate $100,000 to our group,

to which Sly responds, give me a reason. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, is that one of the burdens, especially with Black success, is that, you know, you might lose yourself. And oftentimes, like, look, I'll be very honest with you. Um, even though, um, my experience with Summer of Soul was one of the most magical, transformative moments of my life, uh, there were, there were many a time where, um,

you know, besides the Oscar, like, there were, like, 40 other awards that I won also in the circuit of film festivals. And by the 20th, I would tell my manager, Zara, I'm like, man, can we pull out of some of these things? There's a fear of winning because if you're too successful, then you're singled out. And being singled out for positive reasons or negative reasons is such a nightmare

for most black people. And yes, in this case- Why? Because you're gonna be separated. Like for a lot of black people, it's you come up in the neighborhood, you know your next door neighbors, you spend the night at your cousin's house.

And then in a snap, suddenly, you know, I'm a Colley Culkins character staying at the Four Seasons Hotel, like by myself in the lap of luxury. And that's an alienating feeling because you can't take everyone with you. You can't save everyone You know, I grew up in a neighborhood in which I had between the two neighbors

you know my grandmother's house in my house like I had 30 plus friends and Now it's just four of us like I'm one of four who's not dead or in jail. And so There's there's a constant like why me why? Why was I chosen? My cousin was just as smart as I was and that person plays drums better than me. Like, they should have been in this position. Like, there's an imposter syndrome thing that happens and just a feeling of guilt that one feels. And, you know, the Panthers sort of approached Sly and was like, okay, well, you know, you're talking about these political subjects that we're about, so we want you to be our leader

and fund our movement. And Sly fundamentally doesn't necessarily agree. Like, he's not that revolutionary, even though he has the ability to channel in the feeling of a revolutionary. So what winds up happening is for every time the pressure is on Sly to prove his blackness the more success he gets he just winds up his only answer is to create blacker music. So you know the pressure of everyday people leads to Stan. And then the pressure of Stan leads to basically

the ribbon cutting of funk, the very first funk song, which is, Thank You for Let Me Be Myself Again. You know, it's kind of like this brilliant deflection thing. Like his version of, uh, Hey guys, what's that over there you know huh and they turn around and then like he's gone instead he'll just say uh here's an even funkier song to prove that I'm super black you know and that's that's kind of how he gets out these situations he he has to

performatively become more blacker in his music. You know, and to the point where the pinnacle of it will be his fifth album, which is There's a Riot Going On, which every critic salivates over that album like, oh my God, it's the most amazing funk album ever. Yes, it's the very first funk album, but for me, it's probably 41 of the most painful documented minutes in a creator's life.

Like, this is clearly someone who is an unwilling participant in his journey. Like, I hear someone crying for help. But because the music is so awesome and so mind-blowing, you know, we wind up fetishizing his art, and you don't see the pain of it. Or the fact that Black Pain is so beautiful. Like, the sound of Aretha Franklin's voice, like, yeah,

we'll say, like, it's so soulful, so, but no. Like the sound of Aretha Franklin's voice, like yeah, we'll say like it's so soulful. So, but no, that Aretha Franklin's voice is the sound of a woman who never had a relationship with her own mother, whose mother rejected her. And when you hear her beautiful voice, that's the sound of pain. So somehow, you know, a lot of black music that we love, you know, the sound of Ray Charles' voice, the sound of Stevie Wonder's voice, the sound. What we're really getting off on is their pain, which I'm guilty of it, but, you know, it's problematic

and it's also a pleasure, you know, and I feel guilty that sometimes I get off on someone's pain. Yeah, but that isn't isn't that because we all have pain and we like music that understands pain and puts our pain into something beautiful. We do but see here's the problem with that though. One of my mentors who passed away, writer Greg Tate, he wrote a book called Everything But the Burden.

And what that essentially means is that oftentimes black art, black pain, is just so beautiful that oftentimes, you know, we'll take everything. We'll take the dancing. We'll take the fashion. We'll take the lingo. We'll take the singing. We'll take everything but the burden and the pain that it takes to reach that level of

art. For me, one of the best examples, every time I DJ, there's a song by James Brown called It's a New Day. And probably three minutes into that song, James Brown does a level of screaming that is beyond just ad-libs. Every time I DJ this song, it's so awesomely danceable and funky, but also I DJ this song, like, I... It's so awesomely danceable and funky,

but also, like, so painful to hear, because, you know, James Brown is a person that was an orphan that grew up in a brothel. His mother gave him away, his father gave him away, so that feeling of rejection he had all of his life, all that pain is coming out in this song. And, you know, that's kind of the thing. It's everything but the burden. that's kind of the thing. It's everything but the burden.

That's kind of the empathetic way that we wanted to paint this story that, you know, because people often just say like, wow, he had everything and he was a genius, and then he chose drugs. And for me, yeah, for me, it's like, what happened in his life that made him want to choose drugs? And that's the question that no one could answer, especially when I interviewed Clive Davis. And Clive has a history of, you know, there's Janis Joplin, there's Whitney Houston, there's Sly Stone, there's all these artists that have sort have famously succumbed to darker demons and I asked him, well, I think it's more than just like,

oh, he was hanging with the wrong crowd and chose cocaine instead. When I asked him, what circumstances do you think that he was going through during that period he was on through during that period he was on your label that you might not have been aware of. And this is definitely not just a story of Sly Stone. This is a story of anyone I've ever worked with. This is the story of Frank Ocean or Lauren Hill or Dave Chappelle, Kanye West, like anyone who's ever been mired in trouble, anyone you ever ask,

like, why are they doing this? Like, everyone goes through this. KS My guest is Questlove. His new documentary about Sly Stone is called Sly Lives, aka The Burden of Black Genius. We'll talk more after a break. This is Fresh Air. On the Indicator from Planet Money podcast, we're here to help you make sense of the economic news from Trump's tariffs. It's called in game theory a trigger strategy, or sometimes called grim trigger, which sort of has a cowboy-esque ring to it. To what exactly a sovereign wealth fund is. For Insight every weekday, listen to NPR's The Indicator from Planet Money.

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to improving lives through invention, innovation, and climate action. So to illustrate the point that you were making about pain and music, let's listen to Family Affair, which is a song about, you know, kind of what you're saying that one person does really well and other people in the family don't, and there's a lot of pain within the family. So this is Family Affair, Sly and the Family Stone. If the family you're with If the family you're with

One child grows up to be Somebody that just loves to learn And another child grows up to be somebody you just love to burn Mom loves the both of them, you see it's in the blood Both kids are good to mom, blood's thicker than the mud It's a family affair. It's a family affair. It's a family affair. All over, all over. That was Sly and the Family Stone. My guest is Amir Kwestlove Thompson. His new documentary about the group and about Sly in particular is called Sly Lives, The Burden of Black Genius. So, you know, we talked about this a little bit.

The subtitle of your film is The Burden of Black Genius. And your theory is that for black artists in America, success can be more terrifying than failure for the reasons that you described. What do you think the burden included for Sly? What were the personal burdens in his life in addition to being singled out and how singled out can mean removed from your own people? What are some of the personal burdens that you think he also shouldered? Um, one to the pressure of writing game-changing music.

You know, Sly is the first person to use a drum machine. Sly is kind of the pioneer of the bedroom, do-it-all-yourself musician. You know, there's the pressure of feeding the machine, of writing the hits, of keep winning. You know, there's the idea of what you are versus who you really are. You know, as the generations go on, like Sly was unable to do that. And when he drops the baton, there was someone in the wings waiting to pick that baton up. And at the time, that person was 12 years old, and that person's name was Michael Joseph Jackson. So Michael Jackson will

wind up picking up the baton of what should have happened to Sly. And then 10 years later, in 1982, Michael himself will go through that same process of being the chosen one, being the God, being the unifier, being the center of attention. And then suddenly, he'll just wind up on a kind of a hamster wheel of chasing perfection. And this happens to everyone, this Prince, Whitney Houston. It's that level of pressure that one puts on themselves. And there's just no space for humanity in entertainment, but especially in black entertainment. So I feel as though now's the time to have that conversation

because I feel as though, especially with black people, we are now in a space where we are open to things like the discussion of therapy and mental health. I want to pick up on that because I think that genius is often accompanied by or fueled by some kind of mental health issue, whether it's OCD or bipolar disorder, that there's something within you where you are wired to not necessarily be happy but you are wired to do music or painting or writing. And like you kind of have no choice. But, and there's even been like studies about this, you know, that you can have some kind of mental health issue

and that is often, you know, self-medicated with drugs. And I'm not trying to deny any of the things you said about how black artists have a burden that white artists don't so I'm just trying to add well, yeah, this this this became a serious point of contention with you know, kind of me and the Disney organization and you know The the idea of like was this the burden of genius of the burden of black genius The difference between black genius and regular genius is that most white artists aren't, their feet aren't gonna be held to the fire of,

remind yourself that you're Italian. Make sure you keep up your German roots. Put some Yiddish in that song. Yeah, exactly. When you have black success, nine times out of 10, you're going to go in the history books because it's just so pioneering. You better make us proud and you better not mess up or embarrass us. I think right now we're just starting to have

that conversation about how do we feel inside, you know, our humanity. You talk the last time you were on our show about the importance of vulnerability. Yeah. And how it's time to talk about vulnerability and express vulnerability. So these next six projects I'm working on, this will be the common denominator. I touch on this in the Earth, Wind & Fire doc, which comes out in September. And with Sly, it's also about humanity and vulnerability, which, you know, is sometimes just way too risky to figure out, will you get penalized if you are oversharing too much because some

people might not be able to handle it. My guest is Amir Kwestlov Thompson. His documentary about Sly and the family Stone is called Sly Lives, AKA The Burden of Black Genius. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. World news is important, but it can feel far away. genius. We'll be right around the world. We're already there. Listen to the State of the World podcast from NPR every weekday. You talked to Sly, and I don't know how much he participated

in the movie, but how would you describe him now? He's in his early 80s. He's clean. He hasn't used drugs. I'm not sure how long, but he's off of them as far as I can tell. So... Yeah, he's been clean for about kind of close to a decade. And that's why we called it Sly Lives. Like the irony of all this is that all of his disciples unfortunately didn't make it, but yet Sly is still with us. And for me, like my favorite part of that film is when his kids describe what his life is like now.

Like I love the fact that Novena Caramel from KCRW in LA says that, you know, like he loves pizza with pineapples on it. He loves, you know, watching old Westerns. He loves driving new cars. The first time I saw a slide drive, he was driving a very unusual, I don't know what kind of car that was, but just the fact that he has an everyday normal existence, like he plays with his grandkids, like he's just a normal guy,

which to me that speaks volumes, like to be normal, to be human, not to be the scary black guy, not to be the over-sexualized person, but just a normal, relatable, everyday person. To me, that's the dream. Amir, it's been so great to talk with you. And I just think all these projects you're doing,

it's really remarkable. I really look forward to the Earth, Wind, and Fire movie now. Well, whenever I do a press run, this is one of my favorite highlights. And I'm so glad that for the last 20 plus years, this has sort of been the springboard for my projects coming out. I thank you for receiving it.

AMT – The Mirra Questlove Thompson's documentary, Sly Lives, aka The Burden of Black Genius, is streaming on Hulu. Our conversation was recorded earlier this year when the film came out. Questlove is the drummer, co-founder and leader of The Roots, the house band for The Tonight Show starring Jimmy Fallon. The annual Roots picnic will be held in Philadelphia next Saturday and Sunday, May 31st and June 1st. Featured performers this year include D'Angelo, Lenny Kravitz, Meek Mill, Glorilla, and Miguel. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, my guest will be writer James Patterson, who has sold more than 400 million copies of his books.

That includes the Alex Cross Detective Series, The Women's Murder Club, and Maximum Ride. He's collaborated on books with Bill Clinton and Dolly Parton and is starting a novel with Mr. Beast. I hope you'll join us. I got to be me You'll never be in doubt. That's what it's all about Can't take my bug granted and smile Yeah Fresh airs executive producers Danny Miller our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Henry Boudinato, Lauren Prenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challener, Susan Yafendi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesbitt. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley.

I'm Tariq Rose.