Fresh Air - Revisiting The Music Of The Harlem Hellfighters' Regimental Band

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

Pianist Jason Moran talks jazz and plays selections from his latest recording, which borrows from the music of James Reese Europe, the composer and musician who led the all-Black Harlem Hellfighters regiment band during WWI. Moran's new album is called From the Dancehall to the Battlefield, and it features Moran's take on Europe's compositions and pop music of that time.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. I hope you're enjoying this Thanksgiving day. For the holiday, we're going to feature one of my favorite recent Fresh Air episodes. In August, Jason Moran, a terrific musician and composer, joined us at the piano. The first time I interviewed him, in 2005, when Moran was 30, I quoted our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead, who called Moran one of those rare up-and-comers who makes you optimistic for the future of jazz? Moran is no longer an up-and-comer, and he certainly fulfilled his promise. He's making exciting recordings that draw on the early roots of jazz as well as the avant-garde. He's the Kennedy Center Artistic Director for Jazz, and he curated the permanent exhibition in the new Louis Armstrong Center in Queens, New

York, which is across the street from Armstrong's preserved home. Moran also teaches at the New England Conservatory of Music. He composes music and has put his own spin on the works of early jazz pianists and composers, including Fats Waller and James P. Johnson. He has a recent album that's a tribute to James Reese Europe, an important but little-remembered figure in jazz history. In the early 1900s, Europe led his own band and founded the Clef Club, which functioned like a union for black musicians. He was the music director for the then-famous dance duo Vernon and Irene Castle.

In World War I, Europe joined the army and fought with the 369th Regiment of the Infantry, known as the Harlem Hellfighters. He also led a regiment band that combined military music and syncopation, creating a new sound. Jason Moran's album From the Dance Hall to the Battlefield features Moran's take on James Reese Europe's compositions and pop music of that time. When we spoke, it was available only on Bandcamp

for streaming or download. Now it's also available on CD. Moran joined us from the studio of WNYC in New York. Jason, welcome back to the show. It's so exciting to have you at the piano and to have you back. Oh, it's a pleasure. I'm smiling like crazy. Oh, great. So the first thing I want to do is play some music. So first I want to play James Reese Europe from like the 19-teens, I think it's like the late 19-teens, playing the Castle House Rag. And the castle refers to the dance duo Vernon and Irene Castle. So first, I want to play some of the recording, and then we'll hear your interpretation of it at the piano. So tell us what you'd like us to listen for in this recording. And I should say,

I really love James Reese Europe's music. You know, in this recording, there's something so raw about the percussion. It's like they're not necessarily playing drums or cymbals. It's like some other kind of contraption from the early 1900s. And then there's this phrasing, you know, knowing that James Reese Europe becomes one of the pivotal forces of dance music. There's something driving about it that the way I hear it now is I hear it related to house music or techno music. There's something driving about it that the way I hear it now is I hear it related to house music or techno music. So there's something about the repetition of that first phrase. And it's just a driving beat. And it seems like, you know, it's a galloping song that's about to go out of control, but it's so contained too in its energy. All right, let's hear it. I want to say to our listeners, it's a very old recording. It's a really early recording, so it's not going to sound like what you're used to. But, you know, try to

get past that and just really listen to the music and not to the recording quality. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 ¶¶ So that was James Reese Europe's band from like the late 19-teens doing his composition, The Castle House Rag. And Jason Moran's new album is devoted to the music of James Reese Europe. So Jason, let's hear your interpretation of it. But first, introduce it for us. Tell us what you wanted to do with it. Well, you know, like I said before, repetition is so important. I think just for, you know, for all civilizations, we need phrases to repeat.

And James has this simple phrase in the right hand. It's just a rhythm, really. But I wanted to kind of plant it with a little bit of, you know, house music, bass notes. And then by the end, it becomes an anthem more about a kind of solitude, too. So I try to move it through a bunch of different moods over the next two minutes. So this is my version of Castle House Rag. Kjell Kjell Gullivand Thank you. Gå inn på min kanal piano plays softly That was great. I love that. Thank you so much.

And that's music with his whole band. That's on Jason Moran's new album, From the Dance Hall to the Battlefield. But he's performing this for us at the piano at the studio of WNYC in New York. So where do you see James Reese Europe fitting into the history of jazz? Because, you know, one of the things I love about his music is that the drumming often has like a military sound to it, like the drum rolls and, you know, kind of marching beat. And I actually love marches and I love that kind of drumming, but it's crazy, you know, but it's like that kind of drumming gone a little crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what his moniker is, is one of these

syncopation kings. And I think, I mean, one of the things I had to rethink was, well, what does syncopation mean? And what does syncopation mean also as a metaphor for black progress too? And when he's coming up in the early 1900s, you know, his parents move him up from Mobile, Alabama up to DC, and he starts taking violin lessons with Joseph Douglas, the grandson of Frederick Douglas. Like he's getting something put in his mind about futurity. And that's what excites me. So I think we hear that in the rhythm. And one thing, one of my great teachers, Muhal Richard Abrams used to like to say was, you know, progress in music is usually shows up in rhythm first, you know, faster than it shows up in harmony. He says it's in a rhythm. And if you think about how rhythm has changed in popular music over the past 120 years, it's changed drastically. But the rhythm is the thing that we hear.

So what you're hearing in that drum, you know, in the time of, you know, post-Emancipation Proclamation, what is the rhythm that we need to tell us? Like, where do we follow it to? And I think James Reese Europe starts to try to find a place to plant that in the songs. James Reese Europe also founded the Clef Club, which is kind of like a union for black musicians. Tell us more about it. Well, I think he forms this organization because the music of that time is being put everywhere, right? It's on the stages and these houses and these theaters.

And also, I think what James Reese Europe and others see is there's something about the lack of respect given to the musicians that are playing the music, especially when they walk off of the stage too. So what is it, if we are making the music that is in demand, then you should come through the door and pay us respectfully and treat us respectfully as well. And the Cleft Club is a massive organization. I mean, they even own their own building in Midtown. And it's something about

this idea that you have to come through this door and respect us this way with this pay. And that also helps out families too. It's not simply about the musicians and the respect they deserve, but it's also about the community that they live in as well. Did the band play for a lot of white social functions? I mean, you're right. This is what it is. I mean, there's no DJ back then, so you need the bands, right? So you need the actual people. And James Reese Yerba is like go-to. He's like a go-to figure in the community. And he's with other composers of the time, too.

Burt Williams, H.T. Burley, William Grant Still. These are composers who are also looking at this breaking point, I think, trying to figure out a way out of the vaudeville stereotypes of black folks and into this place where we claim a presence that is our own. Well, one of the songs that you play on from the dance hall to the battlefield is Ball on the Jack, which is by a black composer, Perry Bradford. The song is from 1913, a long time ago. Why did you choose this? And what did you want to do with it? Well, the song is, Falling in the Jack is like a hit. And if I play it now, people generally come up to me and say, what was that song?

I know that song for some reason. I grew up knowing that song. I know the lyrics to that song. Right. It's a dance too, right? And the great thing about a song that's a dance is, you know, it's like the Harlem Shuffle or something. You know, like it tells you how to do the dance. And like I try to think about who's making a song that tells us how to dance today.

I know Lil Uzi Vert's I Just Wanna Rock. Even though he doesn't tell you how to dance, it becomes a dance craze. So there's something about these songs that tell us how to move in the time. But I also wanted to pair the song with a great composer, Jerry Allen, and her song, Feed the Fire, because I also think it's really important not to segment these composers and to consider them only making music for that era. And Jerry Allen, you know, as a great mentor, is a woman who really was looking at the vast history of piano traditions and trying to find ways of amplifying them and also reflecting a new way to play them.

So I try to mash together Ball and the Jack with Jerry Allen's Feed the Fire. Would you play it for us? Yes, let's see what this sounds like today. Nå er vi går inn i bygget. Thank you. I really appreciate the way you combine the past and the present, the avant-garde and the very roots of jazz. How did you start doing that? I mean, you know, I grew up in the 80s and cut, splice, sample, trigger, you know, drop is very much a part of living in that time and listening to hip-hop music. And so knowing that there's, you know, what they call now the blends today, like finding two songs that can live together is an important part of kind of making a set of music. So I'm always looking past the song to see what its cousin is.

So I want you to play another song here. It could even be just a short excerpt of it. There's something called Russian Rag, which James Reese Europe recorded, and you play it on your new album. And I should mention for anyone who's looking for the album, it's only available on Bandcamp, and we'll talk later about why that's true. Your runs on this, your descending piano runs on this are like so much fun. They're so fantastic. And on Jamesames reese europe's recording of it i think it's like a clarinet it's it's hard to tell because it's so it's such an early recording you can't really hear things that clearly but your your piano runs are so much

more dramatic than on the uh recording but anyway anyways what do you love about this this piece well i mean I think you said it. It's drama. I mean, when this band, I think this is the first song I heard that made me fall in love with the band, was hearing them play Russian Rag. There's just something so kind of abrasive about how they play it. And it shows up in the opening phrase, wah, wah, wah. And you just feel the breath of these musicians kind of assaulting the microphone or the cone, wherever it is in the room. And there was something about that intensity of attack that I try to find a way to do that at the piano.

Would you do it for us? Yes. I'll play a little bit. Let's see. Kjell Kjell Takk for at du så med. That was so fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, that's a fun one. And I think hearing them play it, you know, just, I don't know, it kind of raises the blood pressure. And I think good bands do that. How do you practice that? Those runs are so fast and yet so precisely executed.

I was going to say I can't play that for my teacher because they'll say, that's not precise or well executed. Oh, really? Oh, come on. Those are high standards. You know what, though? I think playing in the past few days and as I age, I know that core is very important. Engage your core. Oh, really?

I always think about the fingers and arms. No, because you need a place, you know, when I watch like a person like Cecil Taylor play piano, as much as it is about his arms and his hands, it's really about the waist, the hips, the back, and the core that allows you to kind of like maneuver through the instrument. And so I know when I'm playing those, those octaves, those descending octaves, my core has to be, you know, supportive of the, of the arms. That is advice Bill Evans never followed. He was always just kind of like slumped over the piano. Yes, spaghetti noodle. Well, we need to take another break here, so let's get to that,

and then we'll hear some more of your music. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jason Moran. He's joining us at the piano, and he'll play more music for us after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today, or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. Let's get back to my interview with Jason Moran, who's joining us at the piano from the studio of

WNYC in New York. In addition to being a great pianist and composer, he's the artistic director for jazz at the Kennedy Center. He curated the permanent museum in the new Louis Armstrong Center in Queens, New York, which is across the street from Armstrong's preserved home, and he teaches at the New England Conservatory of Music. Moran's music draws on early jazz and the avant-garde. He's recorded his takes on the music of Fats Waller and the stride pianist James P. Johnson. Hip-hop and classical music have been sources of inspiration, too. His new album is a tribute to James Reese Europe, who was a lieutenant in World War I fighting in the 369th Infantry Regiment known as the Harlem Hellfighters.

He also led the regiment band, which played a hybrid of military and syncopated music, creating a new sound. So I want to ask you another thing about James Reese Europe because it's so relevant to his music. He volunteered for the military during World War I. And he was a lieutenant in the infantry and fought with the Harlem Hellfighters, the 369th Infantry Regiment, led the regiment band. And some of his music refers directly to the war. And do you know why he volunteered? Because this is a period when, let's face it, I mean, black people had so few rights in America. In the North, it wasn't as bad as the South. But, you know, there was no such thing really as equal rights back then. You know, there's a lot of, I mean, there's lots of ways to think about when one signs up to dedicate not only their body, but also their relationship to their family to

decide to join a war or to fight for the good of a people. When he uses his music to gather other soldiers to say, oh, you know, you all should come with us, not only for this music that we're going to play, but we should try to do this because this is another kind of promise that maybe we can make to show the country how much they owe us. I think it's bold to think this way. And it's also one of the ways that the music, to a degree, gets weaponized, James and his band would go around to neighborhoods and play the songs, you know, play these WC Handy blueses. And people would want to be near that music, so they'd sign up. It's kind of like if Kendrick Lamar decided to just go, you know, people would follow Kendrick, you know, into the battlefield. And James is that important. But I think he sees and wants to try something else. What I've understood him as is that he never saw a stage too big for him. And I felt that he saw the precipice of not only of a war on another continent, but the idea of it was so large that he wondered how much space could his music take. And he met the match. There's a song that he wrote with a lyric by

Noble Sissel, who was part of the songwriting team with UB Blake, one of the most famous songwriting teams of that period and of the 20s. And so Noble Sissel wrote the lyric. And it's a song called On Patrol and No Man's Land. And I've never quite heard a song like this. It's all about being on patrol in no man's land, which is the land between the two warring enemies. And remember, this is trench warfare. And so it's all about fighting and being on patrol in no man's land and grenades going off and machine guns firing at you and poison gas attacking you because poison gas was used in World War I and having to put on your gas mask. And Noble Cicilla singing this on the James Reese Europe recording.

And it's a pretty incredible recording. And I think that he actually wrote this in the infirmary, like in the hospital. And again, I want to say it's a really early recording,

so don't be put off by the sound quality. Try to just listen to the music and the lyric. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 Don't start a-bummin' with those hand grenades There's a machine gun, the holy spade Alert, gas, put on your mask Adjust it correctly and hurry up fast Drop, there's a rocket for the fight Rod, down, hunker ground Post your can, don't stand

Three-pence draw, follow me, that's all What do you hear? Nothing near, don't fear All's clear, that's the life of a troll When you take a patrol Out in No Man's Land, ain't it grand all's clear. That's the life of a school when you take up a stroll. Out in no man's land. Ain't it grand? Out in no man's land. So that was the James Reese Europe band with Noble Sissel singing.

Sissel also wrote the lyric. I don't know. That's a pretty special recording. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Now, you play something on your tribute album to James Reese Europe called All of No Man's Land is Ours. The song we heard was called On Patrol on No Man's Land. And the one you play is All of No Man's Land is Ours.

Now, Noble Sissel, who we just heard sing his own lyric, he also wrote a lyric to this song. The song, the music was written by James Reese Europe. Would you tell us why you chose to play this? Sure. I mean, just to hear you describe No Man's Land, right? So No Man's Land in Warfare is that. No Man's Land for a soldier returning to America, a black soldier returning to America, is about something totally different. And so in this song, All of No Man's Land is Ours, it's a love song.

And it's a soldier returning, calling up his girlfriend or his wife and saying, you know, all of no man's land is ours. And it's not necessarily the battlefield, but it is the kind of love field. And with love, they seem that they can kind of accomplish anything. So the no man's land is kind of like America. And I think for black soldiers, there was something so clever about Noble Cecil and James Reese Europe and UB Blake that they were planning these songs that, you know, that allowed for multiple readings, as Toni Morrison would say. So

All No Man's Land is Ours is a love song, but it's also about something that is haunting as well. When you play this on your album, From the Dancehall to the Battlefield, you don't sing, but I asked you. I asked you if you would sing the Noble Cecil lyric because it's such an interesting song. It is. And I've had some coaching from my wife. Who's an opera singer. Who's an opera singer. I heard her in Porgy and Bess in Philadelphia.

Yeah, Alicia Hall Moran. So she's like, Jason, you have to speak it and pretend there's a harp underneath your arms. Thank you, Alicia. Hello, Central. Hello, hurry. Give me 403. Hello, Mary. Hello, dear.

Yeah, this is me Just landed at the pier And found the telephone We've been parted for a year Thank God at last I'm home Having time to talk a lot Though I'm feeling mighty gay Listen sweet, forget me not I've only time to say. All of no man's land is ours, dear. Now I've come back to you, my honey true. Wedding bells in Juney June All will tell the tuney tune

The victory's won, the war is over The whole wide world is wreathed in clover Then hand in hand we'll stroll through life Dear, just think how happy we will be. I mean, we three. You, me. Nine months later, we'll have a baby. We'll pick a bungalow among the

fragrant bowers and spend our honeymoon with the blooming flowers. All of no man's land is ours. All of no man's land is ours. All of no man's land is ours. All of no man's land is ours.

All of no man's land is ours. All of no man's land is ours All of no man's land is ours I am so proud of myself for asking you this. That was lovely. That was really so good. And the fact that you whistled was a bonus. You know, I think James Reese Europe and all of them understand that when you present music on stage, it's not simply the sound. It's also the drama, the comedy, the tragedy. And all of those emotions kind of have to show up.

And they all have signals and ways that they can show up. And you don't only have to use the piano. And there's something about what James Reese Europe wants to animate about the depth of life in these recordings that also, for me, charges me up. Well, let's take another break here. Joining us at the piano is Jason Moran. His new album is a tribute to James Reese Europe, called From the Dance Hall to the Battlefield. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to my interview with composer and musician Jason Moran, who's joining us at the piano. His new album features his take on the music of James Reese

Europe, an important figure in the very early history of jazz. It's called From the Dance Hall to the Battlefield. It's available only on Bandcamp for streaming or download. Jason Moran is the artistic director for jazz at the Kennedy Center, and he also teaches at the New England Conservatory of Music. So let's talk about you. You started off with classical music when you were like about six years old or something. You started studying the piano through the Suzuki method, which was a method for teaching young children to play classical music. And you took classical lessons after that. And then you heard Thelonious Monk playing Round Midnight.

Yes. And you've said in the past that that inspired you to play jazz. Can you play some of Round Midnight for us and talk us through what you heard in that that changed the course of your life? I'll play the first opening phrase. Okay. Nothing in Suzuki sounds like that. Just nothing sounds like that. And that's the intro, you know? And then it gets to one of the most incredible melodies. Thank you. I mean, my goodness.

When I heard it the first time in my parents' room, I ran downstairs to try to play it, but I couldn't hear it. Like, I mean, it's important to stress that hearing does not necessarily on-off. Hearing ages, too. Like, how you hear and the depth of your hearing. So to hear those sounds and not be able to make them was so frustrating to me. And I spent, I guess, the rest of my life trying to figure out how to make those sounds that can charge and change a life. And Monk became that source for me.

You were born in 1975. You grew up with hip-hop. So you were studying classical music, trying to figure out the secrets to Thelonious Monk, and also listening to a lot of hip-hop. So how does hip-hop figure into your music as a composer and player? Oh, I mean, hip hop is everything to me. You know, a lot of some musicians, they say, oh, I wish I could have been there in the 1960s when Ornette Coleman came to New York. And I thought, OK, you know, I was in New York when Biggie was here. Right. I was in New York when the Roots were coming up from Philly to play shows.

I was here when Fireside was coming through New York. You know, like I saw those shows. Those groups were important, for me at least, because they wanted to show the humor. They wanted to show the intellect. They also wanted to show how hip they were with the music that they sampled. You know, just that sample bank itself was music history. And so I was always listening to those songs with that in mind, too. Now, I've mentioned on the show today that your new album, your tribute to James Reese Europe from the dance hall to the battlefield,

is available only on Bandcamp for streaming or download. And the streaming is free download you have to pay you started your career on blue note records this was like nearly 20 years ago right right or more than that yeah um and you know blue note was a major label and this was before streaming so people actually you want you want to music, you had to buy the record. That's no longer the world we live in. So you no longer, you have your own record label, but this new album, you didn't even bother to cut a record. It's just streaming and downloadable. little bit about where you think you are and we are in terms of recorded music and and fair pay for musicians right to hear their work i'm i love as a listener listening for free however however

it's at the stake it's it's at the stake of the musicians. It is. And artists spend dollars to make this. You pay for everybody to come record. You pay to be in the studio. You pay to have it recorded and mixed and mastered. And I think there's something that got corrupt a while ago around the making of music and that it's a thing that lives out there for free for people. And Bandcamp, as a source, allows the artist to price the music where you want,

to determine which songs are streamed or not. And so in the mode of the Clef Club, in the mode of owning the canon, I place my music there because I know at least if someone wants it, then they can listen and then they can pay for it. And it comes directly back to the artist. One of your projects now, I guess you just finished it, you did the permanent exhibition at the new Louis Armstrong. It's kind of like a museum, a new museum right across the street from where he used to live, which is preserved. I think it's a historical site now, isn't it?

Yes, it is. How did Armstrong influence your playing or composing? And also, how did Earl Hines, his early pianist, influence you? Of course. I mean, Armstrong is quintessential to thinking about jazz phrasing, you know, or phrasing. And whether it's at his trumpet or it's in how he scats or how he delivers a lyric. And so that, you know, it touches everything, especially in pop music, too. And his relationship with the pianist Earl Hines is quintessential.

You hear these two kind of bobbing and jabbing at each other, the trumpet and piano, especially in the song called Weatherbird. But to draw that long line, that historic line, Earl Hines is also the mentor to Jackie Byard, and I'm the student of Jackie Byard. So in some very long, long line, I am in that shadow of what they created. One song that I started playing recently, looking at the way Armstrong sang the song When It's Sleepy Time down south.

But I had another kind of flair and sometimes that Heinz might show up. So it's kind of like, let's see. и Thank you for doing that. Let me reintroduce you here. It's time for a break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jason Moran, who's joining us at the piano. His new album is a tribute to James Reese's Europe called From the Dance Hall to the Battlefield.

We'll be right back after a break. This is Fresh Air. So I would love to end with some music. And what I often do when I have a musician on our show who's performing, I ask them to do a song that we would be surprised they like. And to tell us why they actually love that song and play it for us. Would you be willing to do that? Sure. I'll take you up on that.

I'll play. I'll play What a Wonderful World. And and of course, it's about Louis Armstrong. But, you know, I'm an Aquarius. I kind of like darkness, you know, and there's something about the way Louis Armstrong kind of sang that song. He sang two versions of it, and the second version is more kind of like, he addresses like, there's a little bit of ambivalence about singing a song called What a Wonderful World in the late 60s and early 70s, you know, in America.

And I think I started playing the song during the pandemic and really kind of meditating on the moment when he says, when I think to myself. So this is What a Wonderful World, you know, and in parentheses, when I think to myself. piano plays softly Thank you. Thank you. That was beautiful. Thank you. And you do find the reflection and a certain sadness or sense of loss in it? I want to say that I do have optimism. I do. But sometimes when I play, I find something else.

And the optimism fades. And it's something a little more humble than optimism. And for me, when I play it, I feel like, ah, can I just sink inside the song and fold the song over me? And can't I be the polar bear on the iceberg floating out to sea, you know, not really sure about where this is all going, you know, in this heated summer. And the piano, you know, it likes to spend time in that solitude too. And so sometimes when I play a song, you know, all of that is wrapped in there. Well, I just want to say I'm in awe of you.

I think you're remarkable. I'm so grateful to you for doing our show today. Thank you also for, you know, making this space. I cherish it. Thank you. My interview with Jason Moran was recorded in August. His album, paying tribute to James Reese Europe, is called From the Dance Hall to the Battlefield. It's available for streaming and download on Bandcamp and is now also available on CD. He was at the studio of public radio station WNYC in New York. Our thanks to recording engineer Irene Trudell. Thank you. By Amy Salat, Phyllis Meyer, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Anne-Marie Boldenado, Teresa Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelly, and Susan Yakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesberg.

Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. Thank you.