Fresh Air - Richard Kind Is Glad He's Not That Famous

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

Kind is the announcer and host sidekick on the Netflix show Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. "I don't know what the hell I'm doing. You must understand — it's anarchy," he says of the show. He spoke with Terry Gross about having ego but no confidence, working with Sondheim, and working in his father's jewelry store as a teen. Ken Tucker reviews Kendrick Lamar and SZA's single "Luther."Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

The First Amendment is a cornerstone of American democracy. On the Sunday story, how people are feeling about their right to free speech under the Trump administration. Conservatives are just much more willing to speak their mind. They just shut down the conversation by saying, I'm putting you on a list. Voices of the emboldened and the silenced. This is now to the Sunday story on the Up First podcast from NPR. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry has today's interview. Live around the world,

from the corner of Sunset and Gower in Los Angeles, it's everybody's live with John Mulaney. And now here's your host, John Mulaney. That's my guest actor, Richard Kind Kind in his current role on the Netflix show Everybody's Live with John Mulaney as the announcer and Mulaney's sidekick. He does sketches too. The show conforms to the late night format in the sense that there's an opening monologue, but then it becomes a panel discussion on a specific subject like funerals, loaning people money, and getting fired with guests like Pete Davidson, Michael Keaton, Fred Armisen, Bill Hader, Henry Winkler, John Waters, and Wanda Sykes. Everybody's live is live on Netflix Wednesday nights and streams after that. Richard Kind has been in hundreds of movies and TV shows. In the

series Only Murders in the Building, he was the neighbor Vince Fish, aka Stink Eye that. Richard Kind has been in hundreds of movies and TV shows. In the series Only Murders in the Building, he was the neighbor Vince Fish, aka Stink-Eye Joe, with a highly contagious case of pink eye. In the animated film Inside Out, he was the voice of the imaginary friend Bing Bong. In the Cone Brothers film, As Serious Man, he was the deeply troubled brother. Earlier in his career, he co-starred in the series Mad About You and was a cast member of the Carol Burnett show, Carol and Company. His youthful ambition was to be in a Stephen Sondheim musical. He's been in two. He starred in a production of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum at

the Stephen Sondheim Center for the Performing Arts, and in the musical Bounce, he originated the role of Addison Meisner and got to work with Sondheim. Kind was in the Michael J. Fox series Spin City. In Curb Your Enthusiasm, he was Larry David's cousin Andy, and I think he's still angry that a recent series he co-starred in, East New York, was canceled after one season, angry because he thought it was really good. Let's start with a clip from the latest episode of Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. Mulaney explains that Kind got hit on the head with a kiss album which left him with a traumatic brain injury and now he thinks he's Gene Simmons. He's dressed like Simmons, his hair is like Simmons, and he talks like Simmons

too. After he says something vulgar to Mulaney, Mulaney starts to apologize to the audience. OK, so normally I'd apologize for such a crap comment. I crave ideas. And when an idea hits me, it grips me and it tortures me until I master. I Jeez, listen, Gene, I know you think you're Gene Simmons' man, but Richard, if you're in there somewhere, please just give me a sign.

I didn't expect you to greet me with open arms, but I did expect open legs Richard kind welcome to fresh air I have to ask you because this question is as much about me as it is about you So when I interviewed Gene Simmons many years ago He said to me if you want to welcome me with open arms, you'll also have to welcome me with open legs. I don't know anything about Gene Simmons. My reference about Gene Simmons is Kiss, seeing him with makeup. And then John sent me the very contentious interview you had with him.

So I said, oh, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to be that contentious, very, very, I don't want to say stoic, but he was not even somber, but he was still and he just talks these awful things. He was awful to you. He was terrible. And you know, I got a lot of mileage out of that though. Did you? Okay, well a lot of attention. Oh that though. Did you okay? Well a lot of attention Oh good good. Yeah insulting me was actually doing me a favor That they don't don't expect it from me. I'm not that okay. Okay, so Everybody's live your new late-night talk show is adapted from last year's Netflix series. Everybody's in LA

How did no Lenny describe it to you when he asked you to be his sidekick? Yeah, he didn't. I've got to say this about that show. We were supposed to do six last May, Friday, and then Monday through Friday. And he said, even if we get moon landing ratings, we're not doing any more. So you can imagine my surprise when I read,

he's doing 12 more. It didn't even say whether or not I was coming back. So you can imagine my surprise when I read, he's doing 12 more. It didn't even say whether or not I was coming back. Then when I spoke to him, I said, listen, John, you don't have to ask me to do it. You know, it was six and out. And he goes, I go, I won't be insulted. He goes, I'd be very insulted.

But he didn't even call me. And then, oh my gosh, then I find out we're doing 12. This is not what I was born to do. It was a lark when I did the first six. It was fun. Oh my gosh. Now it's a job. Now it's, I better be good.

We're on live all over the world on Netflix. All over the world. What if I say something that's so unfunny or God forbid something I would regret saying? I can't take it back. It's scary. Right, because it's live. Yeah, yeah. That's part of the fun. Somebody asked, is this the largest audience you've ever played to? I said yes. The world is the largest audience I've ever played to. You're an actor and you've been in so many things,

but you're not a big celebrity. Like everybody's seen you in at least one thing. So many people know who you are, but you're not famous in the way that your good friend George Clooney is famous. And you said you like it that way. I didn't know I would like it that way, because my brain, much less my career, has gone through different permutations over the years. When I was a kid, a kid lies in bed in dreams of being center fielder for the Yankees

or being an astronaut, being a rock star. I wanted to be a movie star. I wanted to be a movie star. I wanted to be up on the big screen. The funny thing is when I was angry at my parents, I wasn't going to write them a note that I'm running away. I was going to make a film and show it in the theater. That's how I was going to tell them I'm running away. Film about them?

Yeah, and go, I'll show you. I'm going to go make it big and you'll see. You'll see. You'll be sorry that you didn't let me go see that movie. And that's what I thought about. So I, you know, it was on. That's what it was. And I had a dream.

My grandparents used to take me to Broadway because they lived in New York. We lived near, we lived in Pennsylvania in Bucks County. And so I would come where I was from. My joke is you either went to the Spectrum to see the Rolling Stones, or you went to Madison Square Garden. I went to Madison Square Garden. All my friends went to the Spectrum and still live in Philly. I went to New York, because that's what I knew. My grandparents showed me the city.

And I wanted to be Zero Mustel. Zero Mustel and Robert Preston. That's who I wanted to be. Oh, well, you got to be Zero Mustel. Zero Mustel and Robert Preston. That's who I wanted to be. Well you got to be Zero Mustel. I did. You've been in his role in two shows and a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. I did and I did. And the producers. Listen your intro was really good because you pointed out things I'm very proud of. Okay a lot of people just look at the IMDB page and give some little credit of a movie that I don't even remember doing. But I liked what you mentioned. The thing is, when you look me up, you see a lot of the movies and TV shows. But I did an opera at

New York City Opera. But I want to get back to the fact that you're not a George Clooney level celebrity. Right. But everybody seems to know you. You know a lot of celebrities. And you've seen things that you're grateful you don't have to go through. So what are some of the things that you've seen celebrity friends go through that you're grateful you don't have to deal with? All right, I'll tell you a story. I knew Matt Perry when he was a kid and

We would we've got Perry from friends, right? And yeah, yes that Matt Perry and he we used to you know, it was a young kid He would go to the Formosa, we'd be all of our friends, we would drink. If he could sit at a typewriter and type everything he wanted in his life, from a dog to what the house would look like, to what kind of car, to what his girlfriend would look like,

everything came true. And I saw that it doesn't bring happiness, and I thought it would. So anyway, I went to Vegas with Matt around two or three weeks after Friends premiered. It was September, October. We started at one side of the casino and went through and was looking both ways

to see if he was recognized. And he just walked through the casino and went through and was looking both ways to see if he was recognized and he just walked through the casino. The following January we did the same thing. He took two steps into the casino and that's as far as he went. And that was one of the saddest things. It's what everybody dreams of and they don't realize that they're dreaming of prison. And it's prison. He doesn't have a life. I get to walk down the streets of New York and get to where I'm going. I will walk down the street and somebody will say, Mr. Kind, you've changed my life. You're wonderful.

You're a treasure. Oh my gosh, you're the best. We love you and my whole family loves you. And that's one person. And I passed 250 people who don't know who I am. So it's wonderful to get the accolades, and it's humbling to just keep walking. I like to keep walking now.

When I was a kid, I wanted to be stopped by everybody. Now I have a life. I want to play a clip from the series Girls 5 Ever about a girl group that reunites. You really did your work. Yeah, that's a good one. And this clip seems almost like a self-parody. So the girl group that Dawn, the Sara Bareilles character,

is in has a show at Radio City Music Hall. But they're having trouble selling tickets so she's running around the streets of Manhattan looking for a famous person for the show who could help and she sees a film or a TV show is being shot and notices you at the crafts table. Here's the clip. Here's somebody right? What do I know you from? Everything. I got an IMDB page longer than a wizard's beard.

You're Richard Kind! Oh, you're Bing Bong! Hey, what are you doing tomorrow? Why? My girl group booked Radio City because we're making our big comeback and we haven't sold any tickets because of a variety of reasons. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You got a list of problems longer than a wizard's beard.

Man, I said that already. What else is long? CBS receipt. CBS receipt? That's feet. Man, I said that already. What else is long? CBS receipt? CBS receipt? That's funny. Pretend I said that. Can you do something in our show? I could really use someone who could move the needle. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not a needle mover.

And that's by design. I've spent the past 40 years striking the perfect balance between constantly working and never getting bugged in a deli and another thing. Why would you say and another thing and then take a big bite? I mistimed it. You overshot. Never chase the big time. The big time is bad news.

That's when the fighting starts. People get desperate. Friends turn on each other. What you want is the medium time. Never above number five on the call sheet of life. That's happiness. Look at me. I work every day of my life doing what I love.

Well, not today. Today I had a doctor's appointment. I'm fine. And then I walk by here, I see the spread, I put some tissue in my collar, and I pretend like I'm working here. What is this anyway? Euphoria. And I guess on this show? It doesn't matter. The important thing is... I don't have time for this! Zendaya! Maude Apatow!

Oh my gosh. That conversation was longer than a CVS receipt. That's funny. I just made that up. That's a great scene. I love that up. That's a great scene. I love that scene. It's a great scene. Was that supposed to be a parody of you? Sure, and it was. And it's hilarious and I'm mortified. You know, but it's hilarious. It is a parody. I say yes to a lot of things. I'm in so many things.

You know, I'll go back to the question you asked because you addressed George, who is my dear friend. And remember, I came up in the business with him. And my joke was that at the time that we worked together, I was the handsome one. And then our careers went a different way. So he can't go out like I can go out. He can't even go to a bar the way that I can go to a bar. He's going to get, he's going to get bothered. You get tired of that. And you realize, dare I say it, you don't deserve it. You're a little bit of a fraud. Is that how you feel that you're a little bit of a fraud. You know?

Is that how you feel that you're a little bit of a fraud? Oh, every day I feel like a fraud. Every single day. I'm waiting for the world to say, I'm not that talented. I don't have that, I'm not that good. Every day I wake up like that. Every day.

But a flip side of that, a friend of mine said, I may not always be great anymore, but I think I'm good enough to never stink. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna be bad. I'll be fine. There are parts that I hope I'm great in, and I always yearn not just to be great, but to be great,

but to be better than everybody else in a scene. I want to be great. But if you're playing tennis with a better tennis player, it's just not gonna happen. So there were some times when I say, you know what? You're not gonna win an Academy Award for this role. Just do it correctly. Don't try and stand out.

Don't try and steal. Just do it. Just do the part. And that's a very different way to come to set. I want to talk with you about working with Stephen Sondheim and being like originating a role, originating a Stephen Sondheim role. Wow. Unfortunately, it was a show that never quite caught on and went through several iterations and even several titles. So you were in Bounce as Edison Meisner, one of two brothers who, was it Boca Raton that they helped build?

Mm-hmm. You originated a role. And before we talk about what it was like to work with Sondheim on a Sondheim musical, I want to play a song from it and it's called Get Out of My Life and I chose this because it's a good song and you're really great in it. This song is like part singing and part like really acting because you're angry with this and it really shows you off there's a song by Stephen Sondheim from his musical bounce with my guest Richard kind

I just want you to know that I appreciate Okay, you win, it's done! And now that you've won, get out of my life! It used to be fun to watch you scheme and even be a part of it at the start of it. It got to be fun to stand and beam at the suckers, but I learned that from you. I thought that we'd go from scheme to dream, but then I thought we were a team, amen, no more I've looked at the score You owe me a life, a life of my own I wanted to glide like you before I do. Please leave me alone. Get out of my life so I can live it. Just go away.

And what if I... That was my guest Richard Kine singing Get Out of My Life from the original cast recording of the Stephen Sondheim musical Bounce. So you worked directly with Sondheim on this right? I did yeah. What kind of direction did he give you about how to do his songs? He's a guy who always liked actors better than singers but he loved when he heard his song sung beautifully. But during a show, he wanted it acted better. He loved actors. He would always check in, are you having fun? Does this sound good?

He wrote for the actor, and yet was so specific. If I put a the instead of an and in the lyric, he would correct me. Hanging on my wall in my house, one of my most treasured things is just typed out lyrics, you know, maybe three, four lines in the song, and he would then cross it out and put it in pencil because he famously wrote in pencil the changes. And he was diligent on every comma, every word. He really worked hard. I will say this, this is sort of funny. The first time I met him, I went up to him, it

was at Hal's Christmas party, Hal Prince's Christmas party. I went up to him and I said, do you know who I am? I had a beard and I go, do you know who I am? He said, yes, you're Richard Kind and the beard goes. That was the first thing he said to him. Yeah, also one other thing, a short thing is, there's a thing called zits probe, which is when the orchestra, you hear the orchestra play what you're going to hear for the rest of the run. You've been only accompanied by a piano.

Now you've got an orchestra. So we're doing zits probe and I go to the bathroom at the same time he goes to the bathroom. I didn't harmonize a lot. There were a lot of just solos in the show and I said thank you so much for not writing harmonies I can't do them and he said he can't do them either he can write them but he can't sing them either his his ear isn't good enough. What was it like he was one of your heroes you always wanted to be in one

of his shows and here he was directing you and kind of being very picky about every word and probably about every note as well. Did that make you self-conscious? Yes, I was very scared. I was nervous the whole time. I was a smoker at the time. That's when I quit smoking. You quit smoking to sing Sondheim? You have to. I had to do it well. I know what smoking can do. You have to have breath control. You have to go to the end of the line. You can't take a pause in the middle of one of his words or one of his sentences. Actually if you're in a sitcom, you can't take a breath in the middle of a line because

in order to get the proper laugh, you have to take it to the end of the sentence. Otherwise, the audience may hear where the joke is going to go or you can't surprise them. And there's a rhythm to a joke. You have to be able to control what that rhythm is. So smoking is your enemy. You have to have lung control. Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Kind. He's currently in the Netflix series, Everybody's Live with John Mulaney as Mulaney's sidekick. And that airs live on Netflix, Wednesday nights at 10 Eastern. And then it streams afterwards. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. This message comes from Wwise, the app for doing things and other currencies. With WISE, you can send, spend,

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And this is Terri Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.

It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive. So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. So we talked a little bit about working with Sondheim on one of his musicals. Earlier in your life, your music was being a singing waiter in a Manhattan restaurant. How did that work and what was your restaurant repertoire? I'm thinking, speaking of Sondheim, that you have to sing like upbeat and grating songs and you can't sing a song from Sweeney Todd like, they all deserve

to die. You don't. I sang, for me I sang my audition song was Hey There. I would sing that. I'd sing it. The big song was There Is Nothing Like a Dame. I got to sing that pretty well. One night, one night Theodore Backell was in the restaurant. I wanted to impress him so much. So I wanted to sing There is Nothing Like a Dame, which goes up to a high C, I think, or a G, let's say. A G, it goes up to a high G, which was a note at the time that I could reach.

So we had a replacement pianist that night. The guy who usually played it for me was not there. So he goes, what key do you sing it in? I go, I don't know. And he goes, well, maybe you'd sing in C. And as I'm singing it, I'm going, this doesn't feel right. So that by the time I go, I sing it like that, and I hit the wrong note.

It was horrible. And the whole restaurant stopped. I sing da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da- good. It was hilarious. Were tips based on your singing? God no! I'd starve! Listen, Terry, I sing, but I'm not a singer. And that I could do sondheim, I can hit notes, but I can't harmonize. And I'm not a singer. People ask me to sing, it's like I'm an improviser, but I'm not a great improviser I can improvise there are great singers and there are great improvisers I'm very good it's just in my bag of tricks so I could sing a song but I'm not great but I can I'm very loud I'm from the Ethel Merman School of Music and that's what I do you had a teacher an acting teacher, who said to you, you're not going to get the roles until you're in your 30s. It's not what Hollywood wants.

Yeah, so how discouraging was that when your own acting teacher said to you, you're not going to get the roles until you're 30s? Did you see that as discouraging, like he's telling me I'm not going to get roles? Or, wait, wait, wait. Or did you see it as encouraging with him saying, it's going to take some time, but you will get roles when you're wait or did you see it as encouraging with him saying like it's gonna take

some time but you will get roles when you're in your 30s you will do well. No I had to know you're talking about two teachers. Oh. My high school teacher I went to school with a great actor named Robert Curtis Brown you'd know him as the yuppie in Trading Places now he's had a career that's much larger but whenever I mentioned his, that's his most famous role. He was a great actor. He is a great actor and a handsome guy. So I had my high school teacher say, you know, go into your dad's business

because Hollywood is looking for Robert, okay? That's who they want. I acknowledged that. Then I went to college as a pre-law so that I would take over my dad's door. Frank Allotti, a very well-known Chicago theater maven, the Goodman at Steppenwolf, and a teacher at Northwestern. So when I got his advice, he said, look, go be a producer and so you get to be in show business, but you're busy. I go, no, it's either I'm an actor or I'm a rich jeweler. And I said, he

said, well, you're not going to get famous or get known until you're in your 30s when you sort of grow into who you are. Did I believe him? Terry, I wish that I could say, this is what I chose to do. All I did was say yes to whatever was presented and my path was created by that. I didn't set out to join Second City. I went to some place in Chicago, practical theater company, they saw me and said, do you want to do Second

City? I said, yeah, well, Second City taught me a lot. Four and a half years, all of that way station of waiting for roles and waiting for roles was spent on stage and getting paid and developing into the actor who I was in front of 400 people a night. I got lucky. I really did. Your father owned a jewelry store in Princeton. Uh-huh. And you sometimes work there, and apparently it was a famous store.

And I would presume you sold a lot of jewelry to men buying gifts for girlfriends and fiancés and wives and mistresses. What was it like as a man selling to men who know nothing about women's jewelry and fiancees and wives and mistresses. What was it like as a man selling to men who know nothing about women's jewelry but want to give something to the woman in their life who they love or they want to impress

or they want to make up with? Well, okay. My dad didn't trust me with the beautiful jewels or the expensive stuff. I sold lighters and sterling silver keychains and the pens and stuff like that, maybe candelabras, but I didn't sell the expensive stuff. And I was no good. I was a good salesman. My dad was a great salesman. I'd spend 45 minutes with some guy saying, oh, you see these pearls? You see how they're graduated?

You see how this set of, the strand, the pearls match each other best? And then my dad would come up, and I'd been with the guy for 40 minutes, and he would come up, he goes, Bill, Mary wants a strand of pearls? And he'd go, yeah, and he goes, Richie, wrap these up, and he'd pick up the pearls

and said, and I would go. And that's what my dad did. I worked and I worked and I worked. Now there's a very funny story where I had a Dunhill lighter, okay, and I'm showing this woman various Dunhill lighters which are beautiful lighters and I pull one out and she says I'll take this one and I write down $25 and she says, no, excuse me, I think that's $250. I go, no, no, it's $25. And I show her and she goes, no, that says $250. And I look, I go, oh my god, $250 for a lighter. So that's the kind of salesman I was. Yeah, I was not great. Danielle Pletka Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Kind. He's currently in the Netflix series Everybody's Live with John

Mulaney as Mulaney's sidekick. We'll talk more after a break. This is Fresh Air. So you had a significant role in a film I really love, A Serious Man, that was made by the Cone Brothers. And Michael Stuhlbark plays a man whose wife is leaving him, he might be losing his teaching job, a student is kind of blackmailing him, his whole life is falling apart. And he's also wrestling with the concept of God and with his Judaism. You play his brother, you're a gambler, you're broke, you have a sebaceous cyst that's become a big problem. You're in misery. And it's a kind of modern-day version of the Book of Job. At least that's how I think of it. And I'm wondering if you thought of it that way

and if you read or reread the Book of Job to do the role and if people talked about it on the set? Not at all I'm glad I asked I Had a teacher who said Every answer you need is in the script Just read the script. You don't have to do any research Certainly the book of Job wouldn't have done anything. I didn do any research. Certainly the book of Job wouldn't have done anything. I didn't think that was telling the book of Job. I thought I was talking about this guy named Arthur Gopnik and these were his circumstances. And you play pretend.

If it meshes into what you think is the book of Job and you interpret all of that, God bless you. But no, no, no, that's not what I did at all. I just played the scene. What are my circumstances? How do I feel? And you just play pretend. That's what it is. What was the Coen Brothers' approach to directing you

from your point of view as an actor? What was it like to work with them? They're great. I love them. You're always at the height of your game. I was surprised at how word perfect they liked their script, but they should, because they're great writers. Sometimes Joel would take a physical position

that sort of told me everything about what he wanted in the scene. The scene where the police are at the door. He sat down in the chair and he leaned back. And Joel is a long, lanky man. And his face almost looked five inches longer than it is. And that's what I saw in when I leaned back in the chair. almost looked five inches longer than it is. And that's what I saw in when I leaned back in the chair. Dare I say he almost looked like a horse

when he was looking back, and that's what I saw. So I played pretend that I was a lovely man, even though I am a poker player. You said a gambler, I think of myself as a card player, not as necessarily a gambler. And I don't know why, but, you said a gambler, I think of myself as a card player. Not necessarily a gambler. I don't know why, but when you said a gambler, I said, no, I'm not a gambler, I'm a poker player. And that's different.

I'm a gamesman. I'm not a gambler. Does that make sense to you? Absolutely. Okay. You had a skill. Yes, I had a skill, and they're not letting me play cards anymore Why aren't why aren't they do why I can't even play cards anymore. And what a sad man. I'm a very simple man

As opposed to my brother who's a serious man. I'm a simple man. That's what I saw I Am even talking like him as I'm described. This is I don't do that. So that's who the guy was The movie a serious man is also about you know, like struggling with your faith. Yes, because the Michael Stubart character Has conversations with with rabbis and he's kind of losing his faith Because everything's going wrong in his life. Right. I know you are on finding your roots and you found out that some of your ancestors were religious leaders in the Pale of Settlement. Right.

And the Pale of Settlement was during the Russian Empire, it was a large area of what we now call Eastern Europe, that was basically the ghetto for Jews, like Jews had to live within this expanse of land. And so, so many American Jews, their grandparents or ancestors lived in the Pale of Settlement. What did it do to your own faith or religious practice if you had any? I know you're born Jewish, I have no idea how observant you are, but what did it do to your level of observance to find out about people on your family tree being religious leaders? I know what God is to me. I don't believe in a Jewish God. I believe in God. I believe

there is a power, and I believe that he encompasses all religions. I believe that religion is just something that we go to to make us feel better or to give us some sort of foundation because the world is so full of chaos and we can't really find ourselves. What I do believe is in my ancestors and I believe that Judaism, that form of foundation, must survive because these people gave their lives and they sacrificed and they believed and in the Jewish religion and in the state of Israel and let them have a foundation that they believe in called Judaism. So it's very important that I know what my roots are and what my heritage is and to serve my heritage. Do you practice any, do you observe the holidays and

in the Sabbath and all that? Like how far do you go? No, I don't observe the Sabbath. What I do observe is the high holy days because that God who I believe in and I live my life daily by I hope acting correctly to my fellow man, which is a form of prayer to me and a form of going to church or going to temple. Wow, I can't believe I just said going to church. I believe that is my way of serving God. I believe I'm a good person, and I try and do, I really do try and do unto others as I would myself. So I do go to Rosh Hashanah, and I do go to Yom Kippur, and I am very observant about that.

Part of it's karma. Part of it is, hey, don't tilt the boat, you know, don't rock the boat right now, just keep going. And it's also the acknowledgement of my parents, my grandparents, and all those heritage. But I can't believe that my, how my genetics have just dissipated over the years, so that they started out as rabbis in the 1600s, and this is what we end up with, me, Richard Kine. That's horrible. But I do try and study as much as I can and read and try and be up on news and be as responsible a citizen as I can to serve those rabbis who were there at the time. What you're saying reminds me of something that you've told another interviewer, which is you said I have a huge ego with no confidence

You want to explain? Yeah Being an actor. It's abnormal. It's it's an anomaly It's unnatural For a man to get up on a stage in front of people. It's unnatural to be in front of a camera while 50 to 100 people are behind the camera and pretend that you're somebody else and just lay bare your emotions or pretend you're somebody else. It's unnatural. You know how people are scared of getting attention

and I'm waving my arms going, look at me, look at me, look at me. And yet with that look at me, look at me, look at me comes a fear of what I said earlier, I'm a fraud. Am I good enough? I don't know whether or not what I said earlier, I'm a fraud? Am I good enough? I don't know whether or not what I'm doing. And I think any actor worth his salt would like to be better and give a better performance than what they gave. There's, oh my gosh, did I do it correctly?

Should I do it again? I need affirmation all the time. It's why I like live theater. Even if it's a drama, I can feel the audience listening to me, liking me. That's... And I'm an empty... Uh... I'm an empty urn. There's no bottom to the urn of love that I need.

That is lack of confidence. And yet my ego says, go out and do it, and do it, and do it louder than everybody else. It's who I am. I'm oversized in my voice. I'm loud in my opinions. When I'm opinionated, I'm really loud.

And even my acting. A funny line that my friend Craig Bierko said in a toast once, he goes, the astronauts were up in space and they saw two things, the Great Wall of China and every acting choice Richard Kind ever made. I love that line so much. It's so funny. It's so funny. Is it how I chose to live my life? No, I wouldn't choose it, but it's what I'm saddled with. Do you tell jokes?

I mean, you obviously have a great sense of humor, but do you ever tell joke jokes? Terry, nobody tells a joke better than I do. Oh, great. Do you want to tell us one that you love? Sure. So this mother is making her teenage son's bed. And she's tucking in the sheets. And she reaches underneath. And she pulls out a magazine of bondage,

of like handcuffs and whips. And she goes, oh, my god. So the husband comes home. She goes, honey, honey, honey, look what I found under Timmy's bed. He goes. Oh my god She goes what are we gonna do? He goes well, we're certainly not gonna spank him That's great, oh my god lots of them nobody tells a joke better than I do Well Richard kind. Thank you so much for talking with us. Well, thank you, Terry.

This was fun. I enjoyed it. You're great. You're great. Richard Kind speaking with Terry Gross. Kind is the announcer and sidekick on the series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. It's live on Netflix, Wednesday nights, and then streams. After we take a short break, rock critic Ken Tucker will share his take

on Kendrick Lamar's track, Luther, and two versions of the song it samples. This is Fresh Air. Kendrick Lamar's single, Luther, a duet with SZA from his latest album, GNX, has spent several weeks at the top of the Billboard Hot 100 chart. The track features a sample of Luther

Van Dros' beloved 1982 rendition of If This World Were Mine, a song originally written by Marvin Gaye and first recorded by Gaye and Tammy Terrell in 1967. Rock critic Ken Tucker has been revisiting all three versions and shares his thoughts on why this song continues to resonate across generations. With the song Luther, Kendrick Lamar stakes his claim as that rare thing, a great hip-hop ballad singer. Lamar samples Luther Vandross' If This World Were Mine, that's Vandross' croon you heard in the opening music, with Kendrick singing and rapping his own love lyric all around it. In the context in which this song appears on Lamar's album GNX, Luther serves as a soothing

interlude, a bit of intimacy on a collection more often characterized by boasting and aggression. The way Lamar invites SZA to join him as a singing partner here, it's obvious he's steeped in the soul music tradition of a song that was a hit five years before he was born. Okay, now let's hear what Kendrick Lamar loved about that 1982 Luther Vandross single. Luther is at his swooniest here, his voice pouring out a sweet syrup that swirls around Sherrill Lynn's tart vinegary vocal. Not widely known for his duets, Vandross is at once generous and completely commanding here. When he sings the words, If this world were mine, you kind of wish

God would just hand him the keys. Oh, you've been so good to me If this world were mine I'd give you the flowers, the birds and the bees And with your love beside me That would be all I need If this world were mine I'd give you anything Anything. If this world were mine, I would make you a king with wealth untold.

You could have anything if this world were mine. Kendrick Lamar's verses in Luther are about the promises he makes to a troubled woman he loves, assuring her that her life will get better with him. The author of If This World Were Mine is Marvin Gaye, whose own lyric in 1967 describes a dreamier scenario than Lamar's, as we might expect from one of the great romantics in pop history. Where Lamar speaks of flowers of love that struggle to grow through the cracks of tough city streets, Gaye creates for Tammy Terrell an easier world of bright sunshine and illuminating moonlight. The exquisite

delicacy of the singing conveys the atmosphere in which such beauty can flourish. You've been so good to me If this world were mine I'd give you the flowers, the birds and the bees But with your love inside me, that would be all I need If this world were mine I'd give you anything. If this world were mine This duet with Tammy Turrell isn't as famous as others of theirs, such as Ain't No Mountain High Enough or You're All I Need to Get By.

In fact, this song was the B-side of another hit, If I Could Build My Whole World Around You. But listening to If This World Were Mine, you can hear why first Luther Vandross and then Kendrick Lamar wanted to make sure we never forgot the shimmering beauty of its majestic melody and its hopeful sentiment. Ken Tucker is Fresh Air's rock critic. He reviewed Kendrick Lamar's song, Luther, from his latest album, GNX, and two versions of the song it samples. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Melinda French Gates talks with me about her new book, The Next Day, which reflects on motherhood, grief, philanthropy, and life after divorce. Gates is the former co-chair of the Gates Foundation and founder of Pivotal Ventures,

which is focused on advancing women and families. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at nprfreshair. This message comes from NPR sponsor Home Instead. Home Instead provides adaptable in-home senior care plans from qualified, compassionate caregivers that lend a hand when you need it most. Learn more at homeinstead.ca. Home Instead. For a better what's next.