Fresh Air - Riz Ahmed takes on his inner critic

Episode Date: August 27, 2026

In his Prime Video series, Bait, Riz Ahmed plays an actor auditioning to be the next James Bond. Ahmed says Bond is a "symbol of aspiration, this unattainable kind of self" his character is pursuing. He’s nominated for an Emmy for his role in the series. Ahmed spoke with Tonya Mosley about being his own worst critic, why he connected to Hamlet, and his early days as an MC on pirate radio. Subscribe to our free weekly newsletter Follow us on Instagram Subscribe to our YouTube channel Check out the Fresh Air ArchivesSee pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

This is fresh air. I'm Tanya Mosley. A struggling British Pakistani actor lands the audition of a lifetime as James Bond. Word gets out and the internet goes wild. And suddenly, his life starts to resemble the very character he's auditioning to play. He's in a chase sequence, except for he's not chasing a villain. He's chasing acceptance. That's the setup for bait. The prime video series that is part spy thriller, part family comedy, and part psychological unraveling. My guest today, Riz Ahmed, created, wrote, and produced the series. He also stars as the lead character, Shah Latif. Now he's been nominated for an Emmy for outstanding lead actor in a limited or anthology series or movie for the role. I spoke with him earlier this year when the series was released. Bate opens with Shah in a tuxedo, doing a James Bond screen test.

He's debonair, commanding, in control. James Bond. personified. And then he forgets his lines. Tell me, when it's just you all alone, how do you live with yourself? Do you even know who you are? Line? Cut. Sorry. Sorry, Helen. It's all good. It's all good. It's just... I run a bit of a schedule.

Yeah, that's why I was thinking. Quick reset back to ones I'll nail it this time. How are you blowing this old dude? I know the speech. I know it. My call. You're up every time at the exact same moment. What is this a prank showing? Waring a hidden camera. It's funny. No, I just have a very particular process. I've got my head around it now. I'm ready.

Sorry, we just... We have to... Yeah, well, just a minute. Sorry. How was your weekend? That's good, thanks. It was yours. Great. What did you do? Just... Yeah, thanks, Jim. My second... Stop it. Sorry. You know what?

They didn't want to see you. I had to convince them, so this is on me. I've got a confession to make. I'm light-headed from fasting. It's the holy Muslim month. It's called Ramadan. It involves no eating and drinking in the day. I'm light-hitted from, if I get a bit of a cultural understanding.

Well, I've just seen you drink apple juice. Six takes in a row. I tried. The moment is the beginning of a wild ride as we watch the character unravel. Ahmed has said the show is about family, ambition, and the hunger to belong, and what it costs someone when they finally get close to the thing they've been chasing their whole life. Riz Ahmed is already an Emmy Award winner for his work in The Night of, an HBO crime drama in which he plays a college student whose life shatters after being accused of murder in New York City.

In Sound of Metal, he played a puner. drummer grappling with Sutton Hearing Loss, and he was nominated for an Oscar for that film. And for The Long Goodbye, which is about a British Pakistani family, whose ordinary Sunday is shattered by a far-right militia, he won the Oscar for Best Short Film. Riz Ahmed, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thank you so much for having me back. Well, after that failed screen test that we just heard in that clip, your character, Shah goes to the dressing room and then he goes over the monologue he forgot during the audition, and then he starts berating himself in the mirror for failing that test. I actually want to play that, and then I want to ask you

something on the other side of it. Let's listen. You knew it. You knew it. What's wrong with you? Do you know who you are? I'll tell you are you are. You're a failure. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are ashamed of yourself because you're ashamed to your family. Nobody. No. Um, come in. Um, I, uh, forgot to grab your mic. Oh, that is so agonizing. A crew member comes and said they probably hurt the whole thing. You know, I mean, I love that scene, um, Riz, because, um, that internal chaos, you know, it's, it can become a whole thing.

It's never just an audition when you're a brown actor, is it? Yeah, I mean, so much of the show is taken from my own experience, you know. I'm that guy who you were mentioning the night of. I remember waking up in the middle of the night, two years after I rapped on the night of and going to the mirror and redoing scenes that the whole world had already seen. I'd already been handed awards for this performance. I'm like, no, I got it. I've got to get it right.

And the inner critic is such a kind of big part of this show. And, you know, honestly, like, yes, the show is drawn from those. experiences, but it's not about being an actor. It's about, as you said, being caught up in a chase sequence where you're chasing acceptance and running away from your own inner critic. And so we felt early on in the show you needed to see just how mean Shah's inner voice can be about him. And I just wanted to be kind of like vulnerable and open about that. I mean, I've definitely, you know, I've done exactly that. Like I said, going to the mirror, redoing the scene, saying you're useless, you crap, you know what you're doing.

And I feel like that's something that is very, very relatable outside of auditioning or being an actor or anything like that. It's we're often our own worst critics. Yes, you know, I know a lot of people will be watching this series and thinking is Riz playing himself, playing a character. And so much of this, you, well, all of it, you wrote. So it comes from real experience as well as your imagination. But what did Bond in particular represent to you as a British package? a standing kid growing up in London. Yeah.

Well, I want to deal with the first part of what you said first, which is Isriz playing a character playing himself. And if you don't mind, I want to say something that you said to me just before we started recording the interview. I said, look, how did you like the show? And you said, I feel like I am Shah. You said that, Tanya, you said, I feel like, damn, I'm that person. If you don't mind me saying, so many people have been saying that.

And yes, there's a lot of me and Shah. But I think actually there's a lot of Shah in all of us, more than we like to admit. And really, the show is about this feeling that life sometimes feels like one big audition. You know, we all feel like we have to perform this version of ourselves that knows the script that, as you said, is commanding and decisive and desirable.

The best public version of ourselves, we're performing that. But actually the gap between that public self and the messy vulnerability of our private selves is often huge, you know. And that's true. whether you're talking about how your life is actually going versus the Instagram post you just got up, put up, or that you saw of someone else, or like how professional and put together you're seeming on a Zoom call when actually you're not wearing any pants, you know, just out of the frame. And so there's just to answer your question, like I feel like I'm playing, I'm trying to draw on a feeling that is personal to me, but I think it's personal to a lot of people.

And then that extra component, though, of playing the main. man, James Bond. Like, he is considered the ultimate, you know, in every way. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the show isn't really about James Bond, but James Bond is a very important symbol because he is the ultimate symbol of success. Yes, sure, as an actor he is, you know, the pinnacle of cinematic achievement.

And yet it's also just, you know, for any of us, he's this archetype of like, like I said, decisiveness, desirability, being in control, being unflappable, or being invulnerable. And so I wanted the character of James Bond to serve as this symbol of aspiration, this unattainable kind of self that Shah is hunting down almost. And in chasing this symbol, is he abandoning himself? Is he abandoning where he's from? Is he abandoning his family? Has he forgotten actually who he really is?

And so the show is trying to deal with that. And I think that that's something that, you know, we all kind of go through where we're often pulled between the people we were and the people we want to be. And actually, the healthy equilibrium is probably somewhere in the middle, you know. Probably that thing you want to be is like an attempt to escape yourself. And that thing you were is maybe, you know, a version of yourself you need to evolve out of. But we often feel pulled between those two polarities. How long did it take for you to work on this concept, this idea, and come to what is a genre-bending series?

Oh, man, I started kind of scrambling down ideas for this show in 2014. And I started doing that because, as I said, the gap between my public and private self started becoming so big and so stressful. They actually started feeling kind of hilarious. I'll give you an example. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like the week that it got revealed that, you know, okay, I'm in the new Star Wars

and they released it, released a cast photograph of us all on set. That same week, I got banned from my local supermarket for suspected shoplifting because my washing machine had broken. Only clean clothes I had were flip-flops, bright pink swim shorts, a bright green puffer jacket and a tank top. I'm dragging a massive bag of dirty clothes around to the laundromat. I remember it's my brother's birthday. I haven't got a mechanic.

I go to Tesco's. I'm trying to get him a cake. They got no cake. I buy a frozen pizza with birthday candles. I'm a checkout. It seems like an insane thing I'm buying anyway. It's like, yeah, birthday candles and pizza. I'm dressed insanely. I've got this massive laundry bag. And I forgot to beep it properly on the checkout and other pizza. And it goes off and secure you. Like, yeah, this person looked kind of shady. And we get into a back and forth. And I'm so frustrated at one point, I go, dude, I'm not shoplifting. I'm not shoplifting. I'm Star Wars, man. And they go, okay, this person is definitely crazy. And you're banned. You're never coming back here. It's just an example about like the messy chaos of who we really are versus the

image of success that's somewhere out there publicly. And again, that's not just true for an actor. That's true of everyone who's posting their best selfie on Instagram, you know. So I started jotting down these little stories to try and just process them and make sense. I knew there was something in these contradictions and juxtapositions that was about me making sense of my own experience, but also that just felt kind of universal if I could just get a handle on it. And so I spent many years jotting down these ideas. And then it was when I met my co-show runner, Ben Carlin, we put the writers room together and all this kind of stuff, we realized actually the perfect symbol for this show is James Bond.

And that was partly also because my name had been mentioned in relation to James Bond casting and some articles and stuff over the years. So in the meta kind of spirit of this show, where we're trying to be as meta as possible and have fun with that, actually that's a perfect symbol. You know, it's a perfect symbol of, for a character who wants to be anything other than himself,

who would you want to be? He'd want to be James Bond. There are so many good one-liners in this show that have to come from real life. And so hearing that story about you inside of the convenience store and saying, I'm Star Wars. There's actually a scene

with your ex-girlfriend who she's a writer, she's a columnist, she puts this scathing piece out about Shah. And in one scene, she says like, point blank, someone is talking to the two of you. And she says something like, he wants to play a white character, to which Shah your character pushes back with, he's not white if he's me.

To which she responds, he wouldn't be white, you would be. And oof, you know, what were you doing in that? with that exchange? Yeah, well, you know, we don't really want to come up with any answers. I have none, you know.

I really want to kind of like explore the different sides of the representation conversation in that moment, really, you know. I think it's an important conversation. I also think it has its limits. I also think it's been weaponized and turned into an economy in some ways and a competitive race, you know, representation, merchantry. And I think it also can sometimes be a did. distraction from real systemic change, you know, the tokenism of window dressing can hide like

bigger, bigger issues that lie beneath sometimes. So I think there's an interesting kind of back and forth that they have there. There's really kind of getting into some of that nitty-gritty, but again, without answers, just trying to kind of put it all out there. But I think what's really interesting actually is what's underneath that conversation is a personal relationship about you know that they're they this is a conversation between my character Shah

and his ex Yasmin played by the amazing Ritu Aria from Umbrella Academy and Polite Society and really what's going on there underneath the kind of social political think piece jousting is

two ex-lovers who are trying to jab at each other and push and pull and look for validation and get one up on each other because they're hurt because they both feel like the other has left them behind in some way. And what was really important to me more than anything is that this show didn't exist in a conceptual space.

It's about characters. It's about relationships. You know, everyone has the one that got away. And I was like, well, what if Sean, the one that got away, have their whole entire episode together? Yeah, it sort of flips the series for one episode to be kind of a romantic comedy. Yeah, we try and flip the series the whole time.

And, you know, there's a spy thriller episode. There's a romantic comedy. there's a kind of surreal episode. There's one that's almost like the Bond gala, you know, like James Bond turns up at the kind of, you know, black tie event and hijinks ensues. You know, we've got that.

We've got all these different flavors and we've got an Eid episode as well. You know, I felt like we've got Christmas episodes, Thanksgiving episodes. I want to have an Eid episode. And so we very deliberately trying to layer in and thread multiple different genres because honestly I feel like my life takes place in different genres.

I feel like right now I'm here, you know, lucky me, you know, pretending to be all clever talking to you guys on fresh air and I'm going to walk outside and slip on a banana peel and like full flat on my face and suddenly I'm in a slapstick, you know? And it's like we wanted to have that multiplicity, that tonal whiplash because honestly that's just what I enjoy and I felt like if I can make something that's a full meal that is a romance and a spire thriller

and a family drama and but overall a comedy then I could also just solve a very personal problem which is me and my wife squabbling over what we're going to watch you know let's get in there

and try and do it all I marvel at the the multi-nature of this series as I'm watching it I'm just thinking how did he pitch this you know how does one pitch something like this

and get it greenlit because it's so well done but it also can't really be explained in one line, you know. Oh, thank you. That means the world to me. You know, it's interesting you say it can't be explained in one line because throughout the whole process, we struggled with that, right?

And then when we got to the very end of the process, we actually found a way of summing up the whole show in one word. And that word is bait. Yes, and what does that mean? I want to unpack it for a minute, right? So bait is a British slang word, which means being blatant. and in your face and attention seeking.

There we go. That's what my character is doing for much of the series. Bait is an online term about trolling or provoking people online. That's a big part of our show as well, that element. Bait in Urdu means your loyalty or your allegiance. And that is something that Shah is contending with. It's home versus ambition. East versus West.

Bait in Arabic and Hebrew means home. And so much of this show is a love letter to home. and it's about family and how far do you travel from home in order to please home or help home, you know? And then, of course, there's a big spy thriller element to our show

and bait is something that's used as part of a trap. And so it's that. So it's a weird thing where only in retrospect we realize like, oh my God, we accidentally stumbled on the perfect title for this that actually communicates the entire layer cake of this show. It is all those flavors

and the word bait means all those things. that's remarkable that you stumbled upon, like knowing those meanings outside of the traditional meaning of bait. That wasn't when you all said, oh yeah, let's come up with bait. Did you have all of those before you? No, do you know where, I often have to explain what the word bait means to American collaborators because I say it all the time. Often I'll come up with an idea, you know, we're spitballing in the writer's room and I'll go, what about this? And I go, actually, that's too bait. That's a bit bait.

I mean, I don't want it to be as bait as that. And they go, what do you mean? And I was like, oh, bait means like too blatant. It's not subtle enough. And of course, that's British slang because the most important thing you have to be is a Brit is understated and subtle and, you know, reserved. And so bait is a kind of derogatory kind of slang term. Sir Patrick Stewart, best known as Captain Picard in Star Trek, he appears in bait in a role that I will not spoil except to say that it's not what you'd expect. And I wonder what does his presence do in the story that no one else could. First of all, it elevates the story just by the fact that it's Patrick Stewart in this story.

I mean, he's such a hero. You know, I don't want to say too much about the role he plays because it is very particular and I don't want to give anything away. I guess I'll just say that working with him showed me that your art can kind of only be as big as your heart is, you know, if that doesn't sound too corny. you kind of have to have a capacity for such receptivity, humility, generosity and empathy in order to kind of be an artist of that stature and at that level. You know, just the hum, yeah, just the kindness, the openness, the openness, 84 to step into this story. I remember having to explain, you know, various kinds of British slang and Urdu swear words to him. You know, it was nothing but just always engaged, always interested, always, shall we do it again? Yeah, he was just such a pro and such a gentleman.

And I'll really cherish that experience. Our guest today is award-winning actor Riz Ahmed. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is fresh air. This is fresh air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and my guest today is award-winning actor-writer-producing. and rapper Riz Ahmed. He received an Emmy nomination for outstanding lead actor and a limited or anthology series or movie

for his starring role as Shah Latif and the Prime Video Caterical Drama series Bate. Riz Ahmed has built a distinctive career in film and television. From a rebellious intelligence officer in Rogue One, a Star Wars story, a young Pakistani American on trial for murder, and HBO's The Night of, a performance that made him the first Muslim and South Asian man to win the Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actor. In 2019, Ahmed starred as Rubin, a punk metal drummer losing his hearing and sound of metal, which earned him an Oscar nomination for Best Actor. And earlier this year, he starred in a film adaptation of Shakespeare's Hamlet. He got his start on pirate radio as a teenager in London, competing in rap battles and

recording politically charged music that got banned on British. British airwaves. In 2020, he released the Long Goodbye, a concept album, which uses an abusive romantic relationship as a metaphor for the relationship between the UK and its immigrants. The short film, based on the album, earned the Academy Award for Best Live Action Short. I spoke with him in March of this year. Riz, let's talk a little bit about Shakespeare because it wasn't really your thing as a kid until a teacher I hear introduce you to Hamlet. What do you remember about that first encounter

with the play and what did it kind of unlock for you? Yeah, it's really interesting. I, like many people, felt like Shakespeare is the epitome of everything I'm on the outside of. It doesn't belong to me. It's stuffy, it's elitist. And I've got a government-assisted place to a private school

where I felt like an outsider for many different reasons. And I was lucky enough to have an English teacher called Mr. Roseblade, who was a white Jewish middle-aged man from a different place in the UK, thought we had nothing in common, but he spoke fluent Punjabi. And he brought me Hamlet and said, you know, this thing, this story, this character, it's at the heart of the establishment that you feel so alienated from in many ways. But have a read of it. You might recognise yourself in this character, and I did, like millions of people have, right?

Hamlet being a character who feels out of place Hamlet himself feels like an outsider He feels like he doesn't belong Like no one understands And it really spoke to me as a teenager But more than that What I realized was Hang on a minute

This Hamlet story Set in You know medieval Denmark Actually is exactly like growing up in Wembley This is about who you can and can't marry This is about everyone squabbling over the family business. This is about the reality and lived experience of spirituality, ghosts and spirit possession, which is part of the course. It's part of our lived experience

culturally. And this is also actually kind of pivots on a story point of marrying one's sister-in-law, if your brother dies, which is a cultural tradition. I think it's actually a Jewish tradition and an ancient Hindu and South Asian tradition. I've actually grown up with people who've had to do that. If their brother has died tragically, they themselves are unmarried with the consent, obviously, of their sister-in-law and the conversation that they have, they go, shall we get married? It's a way of protecting the orphans and protecting the widow.

So this didn't feel like this antiquated kind of slightly out-of-touch peace to me. I was like, if you put it in my community, in my experience, this is right now. This is completely vivid and completely urgent. And it was then at the age of 17 that I very precociously had the idea that, man, I want to make a movie of this one day. And I want to set it in that place. And in doing so, I hope to kind of render this story more vividly in a more urgent modern way than maybe I've seen it. And make it just make it feel real because all those things are so real in that environment. What did you have to kind of work through to get to this adaptation?

Because you could have just played Hamlet and put on a movie adaptation of Hamlet as it is. You know, I really believe that the amount of time it took was kind of quite divinely guided in a way. And that's because I feel that this is the moment for this story. You know, it's a story. Hamlet is a story and it's a character who is grieving the illusion that the world was ever affected. fair place. And I think that's how we're all feeling now. We're all grieving and reeling from this realization that, okay, I knew the world was unfair, but now the shameless, brazen unfairness of it is just kind of laid bare. And it's about grieving that illusion. And it's also about feeling powerless

in the face of how unfair it is. And it's actually feeling kind of complicit in it and gaslit about it. And that's what the play is about. And I think that this is when it was made. And I think that this is when it was men to be told, but for us creatively, the part that we were struggling to unlock is how do you not make this feel just like a Shakespeare performance and a poetry recital? How do you not make this feel like a kind of self-congratulatory, like actor wants to take on the classic? And actually, that was the opposite of how we wanted to feel. And it really took us meeting Anil Carrier, the director. And it was after I collaborated with him on the short film, The Long Goodbye, for which he won an Oscar. Um, the...

I was like, oh, I think we know how to do this. We need a director who's worked a lot in rap music videos. We need a director who has actually can render poetry in a very raw way and give us raw action in a very poetic way. And that's what he did in that short film. And that's what he does in his films. And we connected and we had a long conversation about how this has to feel like music, you know?

There's the classic line from Hamlet to be or not to be. That is the question. And in your version, Hamlet delivers this famous solitically, basically speeding through the rain at 100 miles an hour. And I want to play a little bit of it. Let's listen. To be or not to be. That is the question whether it's nobler in the mind to suffer. The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune

Or to take arms against the sea of troubles But by opposing end them to die to sleep No more or by asleep to say we end the hot take A thousand natural shocks the flesh is there to the consummation devoutly to be wished to die To sleep I get to sleep for a chance to dream. There's the rub. That is my guest, Riz Ahmed, in his latest film adaptation of Hamlet.

And Riz, you've talked about this before, but for most of us, we're kind of taught that this speech is about suicide. Basically, Hamlet is weighing whether life is worth living. And you came to believe something entirely different is happening in those lines. What do you think Hamlet is actually asking? Yeah, I don't think it's about suicide at all. it's about fighting back against depression even if you know you will lose everything possibly even your life

it's actually it's very clear in black and white in the text the active verb here is about taking up arms you know what he's saying is there's two choices you can carry on being and it's very interesting he says

be not living just be you can exist and you can exist and just suffer all the oppression and all the unfairness and all the injustice of the world and all the insults that life throws at you or you can fight back but fighting back might mean you will no longer be so it's really about um whether we are willing to pay the price of true resistance you know um and it's actually a very very very radical speech. It's very confronting. It's tackling a taboo subject, really. You know, the idea of taking up arms and resisting oppression and the powers that be. It's a dangerous idea, actually.

You can get you arrested. You discuss that openly to this day. You and your director, Anil Kariya, you all became new fathers while making this film or were new fathers while making this film. Is that right? That's correct. Yeah, yeah. And that ended up being a big part of the process actually. Yeah, how so? How did it becoming a father kind of change what you thought this play was actually about

or the process itself? Well, I guess it struck me that this is a play in part about fatherhood and about the absent father. And I didn't fully understand that until I myself became a father. You know, until I became a father. I became actually an absent father in the sense that I was away for much of the day,

you know, awake before my kid was awake, home after my kid gone to sleep. And I started to understand that emotionally, but actually it was more the effect it had on me physically because, you know, I'm waiting to, I want to play this role. I mean so much to me this story, like 15 years of developing the script. I want to getting ready for this soliloquies. and what would happen is me and Anil would turn up on set on like two hours sleep, one hour's sleep, like 45 minutes sleep.

Because your baby was a newborn, yeah. And the baby was a newborn, exactly, and his child was sleep progressing. And what I realized, after, first I was just like, well, this is all just going to be a total failure now. And then I realized that, hang on a minute, is exactly how Hamlet feels. The word that is repeated most frequently in To Be or Not To Be

is the word sleep. This guy is not sleeping. He needs to sleep. He hasn't slipped. He's unraveling from that as well. And it actually infused a kind of very raw, kind of quite vulnerable, quite frazzled kind of texture, I think, to my performance that I could never have planned or controlled.

You know, I think you can kind of feel a lot of that. exhausted kind of disarray in the performance. And honestly, that's the version of Hamlet I'm interested in is not the version who is the smartest guy in the room, spouting, commanding, commanding poetry. The version of Hamlet I'm interested in is the most stressed and vulnerable and under pressure guy in the room who continues to speak because the words are failing him. He can't find the right words. I mean, Shakespeare was a wordsmith. He's working in verse. and rhythm.

And I'm thinking about your background in rap and your politically charged album. And I'm wondering, did that hip-hop instinct shape at all how you heard and delivered these lines? Yeah, very much so, very much so. Here's my take on it. A lot of people find a block with Shakespeare because they'd find it difficult to understand

what the words mean. I totally get it. I often feel the same way. Here's a thing People in Shakespeare's day themselves Did not speak like that They didn't say that Shakespeare made up like between 3 and 5,000 new words

I think there's some estimates The word eyeball Is a word that he made up You imagine hearing that for the first time A what ball? An eye what? He made that up And one thing that he played with all the time

was rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm rhythm. And so in the same way that when I listen to some of my favorite rappers, new songs, I don't know what they say the first time round, but I am totally wrapped. I'm totally leaning in. I'm engaged. I feel it emotionally. It's the same way. Your first experience of this thing is supposed to be like music. You didn't catch all of the words. But that word there felt weird enough to make you sit up. And what you're supposed to do is receive an electric charge of rhythm and melody and musicality, just like rap music. But that's not the actual experience of these plays. So I wish people, more people spoke about Shakespeare in that way, because to me it is much more

like music than it is like, you know, an English class. Did you come to this understanding as that 17-year-old whose teacher introduced you? Did you see that connection? Because you were kind of deep in rap at that moment, that time. Yeah, it's such a, it's such a, such an interesting connection to make. You know, I think it's an inevitable one to make, really. You know, if you're interested in poetry, if you're interested in lyricism, if you're interested in rhythm, like Shakespeare's doing that. He's playing in all those arenas. And so it was clear to me very early on, but something it isn't also lost on me is at the same time I was studying under Rob Clare and doing a master's in classical acting,

which is essentially at Masters and just in Shakespeare performance. That's when I started on the rap battle circuit in London and things like jump off. battle scars and Bombay Bronx and, you know, competing in all these championships. And so it did somehow, in my mind, feel like it's one thing. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor, writer, musician, and producer, Riz Ahmed. More after a break. This is fresh air. This is fresh air.

And today we're listening back to my interview with Emmy and Oscar winner Riz Ahmed. He stars in the prime video series Bait. For the role, he received an Emmy. nomination for best lead actor and a limited or anthology series or movie. His most recent film was a modern adaptation of Shakespeare's Hamlet, which was released earlier this year. As you've mentioned, Riz, you grew up in Wembley in Northwest London, the son of Pakistani parents who immigrated in the 1970s. Take me back to when you were teenage Riz and you were DJing and rapping. You started on pirate radio. How did you discover pirate radio?

So I grew up in the, you know, in the mid-90s in the UK. I grew up in Wembley. Wembley is both, you know, the site of England's greatest triumph in the 1996 World Cup and also, you know, in the shadow of those, of that stadium, I'd go every Sunday to Wembley Market, which is where you'd buy, you know, buy the Chinese spring roll and the immigrant kind of food stalls and the fake designer clothes that, we'd buy and sell over there, you know, amongst that kind of working class and immigrant community.

And pirate radio station culture was just, that was just everywhere, you know. Yes, you'd have, you know, the BBC radio stations and the other London stations, but in between all those airwaves, the one, that's, all the FM frequencies that were not spoken for, you'd hear faint crackle and then the voice of MCs on microphones that were broadcasting from the roofs of housing projects locally. And that's pirate radio culture. So it was there that I was kind of exposed more and more to drum and bass and garage, particularly when I was too young to actually go to the raves themselves.

As soon as I was old as I was old enough to kind of try and hack off whatever faint facial hair I had and try and like grow it back thicker. I, you know, I was at the raves themselves and, you know, I just love the music. I love the specificity of London's musical subculture and the UK I think does that so well because of the clash and the mix of different cultures and different sounds and influences. So yeah, I was exposed to it

and then I started doing it myself both at raves and on pirate radio. And I remember when I went to Oxford and I got in there, I felt like I'd lost something. I'd lost this thing that I loved. And so I was eager to kind of keep it going. And that's when I started promoting my own club nights.

And it became a really invaluable place where every week without fail, I could hold my craft. I could try out new lyrics. I could gain confidence as a performer. And I think it helped me not just as an MC, but as an actor. How old were you when you recorded the song Post-9-Eleven blues? So post-9-11 blues in my first rap track. It's kind of deliberately silly, but also.

deliberately, you know, it's a satire really. It's a provocative kind of satire. And it takes the shape of an almost like a nursery rhyme or school kids jingle. I wrote that when I was 23, I think, 22. You know, I just felt like I was surrounded by this circus of fearmongering and of paranoia and mistrust and the war on terror and being a young Muslim post-9-11. I was like, this is just crazy. How do I make sense of this? And comedy is really my first love, you know. So I decided to kind of write this satirical rap song. It got banned from the British airwaves. It did kind of like unofficially, there was a sense amongst radio DJs that they cannot play it because it's too politically sensitive.

What was your response to that? And did it kind of feel a little powerful? I mean, that meant your words had power. Let me tell you, the best thing you can do to an artist who's trying to start out and get some attention with their work is ban their work. This is in the era of MySpace that the song very quickly went very viral. And it gave me a lot of confidence and excitement about how maybe I can, if I say the thing that I feel, but that no one else is maybe saying that that is, I can really travel, you know. My guest is actor, writer and producer Riz Ahmed. More of our conversation after a break. This is fresh air.

This is fresh air. And today we're listening back to my interview with Emmy and Oscar winner Riz Ahmed. He's been nominated for an Emmy for his work on the limited series Bait. Let's talk a little bit about the long goodbye. It was your first studio album released in 2020. There's a song called The Breakup, which is the first track on the album, which uses an abusive romantic relationship as a kind of extended metaphor for the relationship between the UK and immigrants. And let's listen to a little bit of it.

Britain's broken up with me. We had our ups, but now it's broken down. Let me break down the whole I was a mullah. I had the bling and the girls, grit and the pearls. My cash was a quarter of the stash in the world. And this stray pale chick came to trade. A labor that came to pay. She's straight slithered and then stayed I couldn't kick her out. She saw I was at war with myself and I'm a fool When you're at war with yourself, you're easy to divide and rule She had me locked down Beat me red and blue till I knew that right was white and not brown

When I make you hate yourself, you hand over your crown She moved in, I was a guest unwanted in my own house Just all my, broke my d-dard me, Scarred me, got paid off the same back she whipped, Left me hungry, took my industry and independence from me, Took my doll and let me money, said that it was all to help me. that it was all to help me. And she had beef with some German next man.

I went to rule for her twice. Almost lost my left hand. That was the breakup from my guest today, Riz Ahmed. And there is also a short film for The Long Goodbye, which kind of serves as a music video. It won an Oscar for Best Short Live Action Film. Tell me about the decision to use language of love to talk about belonging and exile.

and loss. I feel that the poetic metaphor of love and relationship and longing is something that I grew up around in the tradition of Urdu poetry and then reading it and studying it a little bit more as an adult. You know, a lot of Sufi poetry, if you look at Rumi or if you look at Ghalib or if you look at, you know, Razzal. or if you look at, you know, Ghazal writing from South Asia, the Middle East, from Iran, it's often love poetry and love is used as a metaphor and the relationship and the beloved is a metaphor for God. But it can also be used as a metaphor for other things. So I kind of feel like it's something that I wanted to borrow from that poetic tradition.

And in fact, the breakup has an alternative title in brackets, which is Shikwa. And Shikwa means complaint. and that's because a very famous poem by Mohamed Iqbal, he has a famous poem called Shikva and then Javabe Shikwa, which is complaint and response to complaint. And in that, he's actually complaining to God saying, God, you've forsaken us as Muslims like, you know, we've been colonized and destroyed and wrecked and like, you know, where are you?

You said we should, you take care of us, but you're not there. And so I wanted to kind of like really touch on that, Because what I want to do as a rapper is I don't want to just be someone who's kind of like taken from this incredible African American tradition. I want to also contribute something of my own tradition and my own heritage. And so I want to take the poetic forms, the poetic references, the musical backing of my own South Asian identity and my London identity and the sound system culture there and infuse the two. And it felt to me like a much more personal and much more emotional way to talk about. political realities is, you know, through this metaphor of love. Well, Riz, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me and thank you for the wonderful conversation. Riz Ahmed has received an Emmy nomination for outstanding lead actor and a limited or anthology series or movie for his starring role in the prime video satirical drama series Bate. I spoke with him in March. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, Like our conversation with actor Lisa Kudrow or with National Security correspondent Joe B. Warwick about his profile on a notorious terrorist known as The Jackal. Check out our podcast. You'll find lots of fresh air interviews. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page. This is Fresh Air. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanishefsky. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorak, Anne-Marie Baldinado, Lauren Crenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. Teresa Madden directed today's show.

With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.