Fresh Air - Roots of R&B: Charles Brown & Ray Charles

Episode Date: August 30, 2025

All week we're revisiting archival interviews with key figures in early rock and roll, rockabilly and R&B. We listen back to a 1989 interview with singer and pianist Charles Brown. Brown is credited with creating an expressive style of music that blended rough Texas blues with the soft glamour of Hollywood. And we revisit a 1998 interview with soul singer Ray Charles, who helped shape American music, beginning with his 1955 hit, “I Got a Woman.”Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Life is a mystery for those of faith or no faith. Ye gods with Scott Carter is the podcast that makes sense of how we make sense of life. Each week we talk to celebrities, scholars, and mere mortals to unearth what on earth we believe and what we don't. Listen to Ye gods with Scott Carter, part of the NPR Network wherever you get your podcasts. From W.HYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend. Today we continue our R&B, Rockabilly, and Early Rock and Roll Week with two interviews from our archive. We'll hear from R&B, singer, and pianist, Charles Brown.

In the 1940s, his sound was inspired by Nat King Cole's trio. His popularity continued into the early 1960s when Merry Christmas Baby and Please Come Home for Christmas top the charts. Brown style influenced many musicians, including See the girl with the domine She knows how to shake that thing All right now,

Ray Charles, who will hear from later in a 1998 interview. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. Tell your mama, tell you, mama, tell you pork, I'm going to send you back to Arkansas. Oh, yes, ma'am. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross.

Today's show is part of our archive series, R&B, Rockabilly, and Early Rock and Roll. First, we'll listen back to my interview with Charles Brown, who liked to describe himself as a singer of blues ballads. In the 1940s, he performed with Johnny Moore's Three Blazers, Hussein was inspired by Nat Cole's trio. Brown had nine top ten R&B singles between 1946 and 52, either as a solo artist or as a member of the Blazers. His popularity continued into the early 1960s when Merry Christmas Baby and Please Come Home for Christmas topped the charts. In the 1980s, he made a comeback. Brown influenced a number of musicians, including Otis Redding, James Brown, Sam Cook, Billy Eckstein, Bruce Springsteen, and Ray Charles, who will hear from later in the show. I spoke with Charles Brown in 1989. He died 10 years later at the age of 76. He came to the Fresh Air Studio, sat at the piano, and sang some songs.

Charles Brown, a pleasure to have you here. Let me ask you to open with the song that became your first big hit back in 1946, Drift and Blues, a song you wrote. Yes. It moved Louis Jordan out of first place from the Cash Fox magazine in Billboard. Well, I'm drifting and I'm drifting. like a ship out on the sea.

Drifting and I'm drifting like a ship out on the sea. Well I ain't got nobody. World to care for me. If my baby would only take me back again My baby If my baby only take me back again No I'm not good for nothing baby Lady, Charles Brown don't have no free.

Girl, I'll give you all my money. What more can I do? I'll give you all my money. What more can I do? You just a good little girl. You just won't be true. Bye, bye, baby. Baby, bye-bye, bye, bye.

Bye, bye, baby. Baby, bye, bye, bye, bye. It's going to be too late, baby. I'll be too far away. Ooh, bye, bye, bye. Charles Brown. Now that we've heard one of your first big hits, why don't you play something new for us? This is a tune that I had a pleasure of writing.

It's called Everybody Looking for Somebody to Love, Even at My Age. So we hope you like it. I'm trying hard to find. Someone I love to ease my mind. Seems I have a world on trouble on my mind. This heavy load burdens me. I'm going to lay it down so I can be free. I must find someone to love.

Someone love for me right now, today. Every time I read the daily news, the headline print gives me the blues. Why is there so much trouble in the times? There must be someone Far away I enjoy my life Tell them old and great

I must find Someone to love For me Right now Today All my friends seem far away. There's no family love seems it's gone away. I read the papers each and every day.

That hate prevails seems it's here to stay. I must find someone to love to ease. my mind that's all I'm thinking of I must find someone to love for me right now today That's a great song. I like that a lot. You like that? Oh, yeah. Thank you. No, I want to mention to our listeners that in the 1940s, you spent a lot of time playing with Johnny Moore's Three Blazers. And Johnny Moore was the brother of Oscar Moore,

who was the guitarist with the Nat Cole Trio. And listening to your early records, it sounds like you were really influenced by Nat Cole when you were starting out in the 40s to record. Well, you know, we had a trio at the time, And I didn't ever go see Nat Kohl. Really? And I didn't want to see him until I had established a style of my own.

Because usually things wipe off on you when you hear someone else. How you sit at the piano, and I never did see him sit at the piano until I was established myself. Because actually, I didn't know what I was going to do because John Hopkins, who had worked with that Kohl before was a valet, he had told us that, Charles, this is where you should sit at the piano. So Bobby not seeing that cold do it, but we were two trios challenging one another at the time. He was more into Pop, and we were into the race record group, but we were still number one at that time. We didn't know we were going to be it, but we had the Pittsburgh career on a poll, and we won the poll, but Carlos Gastel said for Netco, the Blades is not going to win the poll because I'm going to send $1,000 in there,

and I'm going to beat them with the votes, so he did that. Well, you've influenced a lot of singers, and one of the many people you've influenced was Moes Allison who recorded one of the songs that you did, Full's Paradise, yeah. Sam Cook did too, and a lot of the other people, I don't know, Johnny Fuller wrote this number. He was imitating me in San Francisco,

and Leo Mester and Eddie Mester would go out as talent scouts and to find tunes that would fit me. And they heard this number being number one in San Francisco because this company that had it wasn't able to send it across the country and distribution. So he said, Charles, since they're trying to imitate you doing Fool's Paradise, why don't you do it? Then I did Fool's Paradise

and it was a great big hit for me. Would you play it for us? Yes, I will. I often think of the life I live. It's a wonder Charles Brown and David. Drinking and gambling, staying out all night, living in a food's paradise. My mother told me, father told me too Someday my child, fate's going to catch up with you

Drinking and gambling, staying out all night Living in a fool's paradise though I've learned my lesson Like all fools I've met I've learned Things are in this world I remember To my dying day

My mother told me Father said it right said Charles Brown You run in your life Drinking and gambling Sting out all night Living in a pool's paradise Living in a bulls paradise.

That's it. That's great. In the 1950s, you used to travel on the rhythm and blues circuit a lot, and you had a show. As a matter of fact, Ray Charles, when he was getting started, performed in your show. Opening for you, right? Yeah. Ray Charles was opening for Charles Brown. And it was during the early 50s, and people thought he was singing so much like me.

He said, was that Charles Brown? So when I came out, they said, oh, no, that's Charles Brown. But at that time, Ray, I had to take Ray Charles around. In fact, all the artists that were in Shaw Agency, They were depending on me to carry them through because the promoters wanted to buy Charles Brown but in order for Shaw to sell the other acts he said, well, in order to get Charles Brown

you have to take the Dominoes. I took them through. I took the Clovers through. I took Ray Charles through. I took Ruth Brown through the Wine Virtua. And then I had to be a criticizer for Fats Domino when he came into the circuit. I had to go to, came here to Philadelphia,

and I came here and he was working at the Baby Grand I think it was on Pine Street off abroad and I had to sit there and listen to his show so when I listened to Fats Domino's show you know people here in Philadelphia they were very funny they were great listeners

and if they enjoyed something they would give you a wonderful round of applause so when Fats finished one number he would take his time and they would smoke a cigarette they would do a lot of talk and so when he came up I said You lose your audience when you do this.

You've got to have your next number ready. And if you watch Fatt's the Dominole right today, when he gets through with any of his numbers, he goes right to the next number. So we are very dear friends even today. Well, I don't feel like we could let you leave today without playing some of Merry Christmas Baby, which is one of the songs you're best known for.

Yes, they know me for that number. No care where I go, whatever time of year. Terry. Okay. Merry Christmas baby You should treat me nice Merry Christmas baby Should you treat me nice

Gave me a diamond ring for Christmas. Now I'm living in paradise. Well, I'm feeling mighty fine. Got good music on my stereo. Feeling mighty fine. Got good music on my radio. Well, I want to kiss you, baby. Why are you standing beneath the mistletoe?

That's just a little part of it. We won't talk about Satanic coming down the chimney yet, too. Charles Brown recorded in 1989. He died in 1999. He died in 1999. One of the singers he influenced was Ray Charles, and that's who we'll hear from next as we continue our archive series of R&B, Rockabilly, and Early Rock and Roll. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Up next in our archive series, R&B, Rockabilly, and Early Rock and Roll, we have an interview with Ray Charles. He was nicknamed The Genius, not just for his great singing and piano playing, but also for his producing, arranging, and choice of songs. He drew from and contributed to just about every genre, R&B, gospel, soul, rock and roll, and country.

Many of his great recordings were of country songs. In fact, as 1962 album, Modern Sounds and Country and Western Music, became one of his best-known records and included one of his biggest hits, I Can't Stop Loving You. I spoke with Ray Charles in 1998 after the release of a box set collecting his complete country and western recordings from 1959 to 86. What was the reaction of your record company when you said around 1962, I want to do a country record? Did they think, hey, Ray, great idea? No, not exactly. Although I understand their concern, because, I mean, you know, at the time I was a pretty good selling artist over at ABC at the time.

But their concern was that I was a quote, rhythm and blues artist, unquote. and they thought if I start doing country music that I would lose a lot of fans and of course if I lose fans that means they would lose a lot of business too so they did have I thought their concern was legit I mean I understood what

Sam Clark who's the president at the time was saying to me said you know you're a kid I'm a little worried about that you know I know it's what you want to do but we're very worried that you may lose some fans and my attitude was well Sam you know you probably could be right but I think

that I'll gain more fans that I'll lose if I do it, right. So he said, okay, it's your career. If you want to try it, go ahead and do it. Now, early in your career, you went through a period, like many people do early on, of trying to figure out who you were musically. And before you really figured that out, you sounded very much like you had patterned yourself

on Nat Cole and Charles Brown. That's right. What did they both mean to you? Why did you feel so strongly about them. I just love the way. Well, Nat Cole, the reason he was so powerful in my life was the fact that I wanted to do exactly what he was doing. You know, most people think of Nat Cole as a great singer, you know, they know his voice. But I was looking at Nat Cole as a pianist. I mean, he was one of the, people don't realize, but Nat Cole was a hell of a pianist. He played some of that tasted stuff

behind his singing. And that's what I wanted to do was to be able to play little tasty things behind what I was singing. So I really tried to pattern myself after Matt Cole in the early beginnings of my career.

And Charles Brown, the rhythm of those. And Charles Brown had that real, real, I don't know how you would call it. He had that, he always sounded like he was pleading, begging, you know, really, pleading in his songs, or crying, you know.

And I like that. He always sounded like he was sincere. Whatever he was saying about, he was genuinely, he meant it. That's the way I took Charles Brown, and I liked especially when he was saying the blues or something, like Merry Christmas Baby and stuff like that. Well, I thought we could listen to the very first recording that you made, which is Confession Blues.

Oh, my goodness. Where did you find that? Oh, on one of your box sets. That was easy Oh, brother Yeah, that's one of the things where I was You got me down, Pat I was about, I guess I was about 17 years old at that time

When I made that This is 1949 Let's hear it, and then we'll talk about it I want to tell you a story All the boy was wants in love I want to tell you a story Allie boy was watching love And how the good that I loved

loved me of the happiness I dreamed of She called me sweet and mellow but that didn't mean a thing That was Ray Charles' first recording made in 1949 How did you start to get a sense of who you were as a singer

and start to establish your own sound? Oh, well, around about 19... Well, you know, I started thinking about it in the 1951 somewhere in there in 1950 or 51, but I was scared to try to, tried because, you know, I could get a lot of work sounding like Nat Cole. You know, I could work in nightclubs and I could make a living, you know, with his sound.

You know, I could take the amplifier and tune it and add a little bass and a little bit of treble or something like that to it and sound pretty close, almost just like it, you know. But then I was, I knew what, I woke up one morning and I started to thinking that I said to myself, you know, nobody knows my name. Everybody said to me, hey kid, hey kid, you sound just like Nat Gold. Hey, kid. It was always, hey kid. Nobody never said Ray. Never, never, never. So I started telling myself, you know, your mom always told you to be yourself. And you got to be yourself if you're going to make it in this business. I know you love Nat Cole, but you got to stop that. Well, I want to play your Cheaton Heart, which is a real standard of country music.

And I think this is just a really wonderful example of you doing a song Your Way. I mean, you might even be using different chords on here than the chords that were written. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Well, that's what makes it become me. Uh-huh. And the singing, too, of course. Well, thank you, ma'am.

But would you say a little bit about what you did with this song to make it your own? Well, it's like any song that I'm going to do. I first sing it to myself and see if I can genuinely feel it. Any song, I'm that way about all music, all songs I do. I sit there and maybe sometimes I may sit at the keyboard and fool around with the chords and see if I can find a way to sing it where it makes me feel good inside. And sometimes, you know, I can run into songs that are good songs, but I can't make it do anything for me.

But the song is a great song, you know, to give you for an example, like I've always loved Stardust, a beautiful song. But I never could quite get it to sound like I wanted it to, for me. So, you know, it's really a true feeling what you feel inside, you know, where you can put yourself into it. Can you really feel what you're doing? And that's important to me to feel what I'm doing. Okay, now Stardust, you had a huge hit with Hogi Car Michaels, Georgia. That's right.

How come Stardust doesn't work for you? Well, I just could never get into it. I mean, Georgia was something, I used to harm Georgia. As a matter of fact, my chauffeur, you said to me one day, He said, you know, Mr. Charles, you're always humming that song, George. You always humming it all the time. Why don't you record it? Well, I had never thought about recording.

I just liked the song, you know. But it was a chord structure in Georgia. I mean, especially in the middle part of it, it's got some beautiful changes to it. Hockeye, Michael, I have to give him some skin. He wrote some beautiful stuff on that song. Okay, well, I had you describe your version of your Cheating Heart, and we haven't played that yet. So let me give that a spin now. This is the Hank Williams song, Your Cheaton Heart,

performed by Ray Charles. And this is from the early 1960s. One of the recordings included on the new Ray Charles box set, The Complete Country and Western Recordings, 1959 to 1986. Here it is. Your cheating heart will make you weak.

You'll cry and cry And try And try to sleep But sleep won't come The whole night through You're cheating on We'll tell on you When tears come down

Like falling rain That's Ray Charles, one of his recordings included on his new box set, The Complete Country and Western Recordings, 1959 to 1986. Now, it's funny, you know, when I was young, some of your country songs were really big hits, you know, like Born to Luz and you don't know me and cry in time. I didn't think of them as country songs. I thought of them as Ray Charles Records.

You're very sweet, honey. Thank you, Terry. No, I mean that. I didn't find out so much later they were country songs. Well, actually, what it is. I'll tell you something that, I mean, which I think it would be helpful to the people, to our listeners. You see, I am not a country singer. I'm not a jazz singer. I am not a blues singer. What I am is I am a singer that can sing country music. I can sing the blues. I can sing a love song. But I'm not a specialist. You know what I mean? I'm kind of like a baseball player.

You know, I can play a little first base, second base, shortstop, and third base. I can catch and pitch a little bit for you if you need me to. I'm sort of like that in the music world as opposed to being, say, a specialist, like you would say, B.B. King is a blues singer. Right. There's no question about it. But I'm not a blues singer. I'm a singer that can sing the blues. Now, your biography back from, I think, 1978 begins.

Let me say right here and now that I am a country boy, and, man, I mean the real backwoods. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up in the country. Oh, well, I'm from a little small town. Well, actually, I was born in Albany, Georgia, but I don't know anything about it because my parents moved to Florida when I was about six months old, so, you know, I wouldn't remember anything. So I was raised in a little village, I guess you could call it,

called Greenville, Florida. It's about 42 miles east of Tallahassee, you know, and it was just a little country town, and we just had like a little general store, and that was a post office, and that was a bus stop, not a bus station, but, you know, where you sit on the bench and wait for the bus, and that was about it, and everybody knew everybody. And, of course, I said the bulk of the people were people that were more or less poor, you know, But, you know, so if Ms. Jones needed some sugar, she would barred from my mom. And if my mom needed some flowers, she would barred for Ms. Williams or whatever.

I mean, that's the way we got along. And what did you hear on the radio then? Well, basically, in the daytime, you heard country music on the radio. I mean, that was it. All day long was country music all over the dial. And at night, you could hear things like Benny Goodman or Tom and Ossey or Count Basie. because they would have, in those days, they had programs that were live

that was coming from some of the various hotels on nightclubs. And so you could hear various bands at night and in the daytime, you heard strictly the country music. And, of course, being in the black neighborhood, naturally, I heard the blues. I mean, that's where the blues was.

And, of course, the religion thing, because, you know, you went to revival meetings and B-Y-P-U, and I went to Sunday school, and church on Sunday morning and Sunday evenings. So, you know, that was the mixture that I grew up in. Ray Charles, recorded in 1998. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

Now, I know a lot of African-American musicians grew up listening to country music on the radio in the South because that's what was on the radio then. I'm wondering if you ever felt any more distanced from that music because the performers were white and you were African-American. Did that matter to you at all? No, no. You know, that is the marvelous thing about music.

It is the one thing that... I won't say there was no segregation or anything. I'm not saying that, but it was very, very small. I mean, if you look around, you saw guys like Benny Goodman. I mean, there was Lion Hampton in his band. You know, various white bands, there were black people in the bands. And when I was coming up, I even worked with a hillbilly group in Florida called the Hillbilly Playboy, the Florida Playboys. And there was a hillbilly group.

They taught me how to yodel. Yeah, no, could you yodel for us? Yodel. I mean, I'm a lot better than that. the idea. Yotlai! My voice is too early in the morning, but you get the idea.

You know, I have to say that is not unlike some of the things that you do on your soul record. No, really? Okay. I truly enjoy the various

forms of music and it really it keeps me going. No, we're recording from your studio. Do you have to get your phone? No, no, no, no. Unfortunately,

the switch board kind of goofed and let it ring back here. You know, they must have about seven, eight lines, and they let the wrong line ring. Mistake. Did you think I was nuts when I said that about yodling, sounding not unlike some of the things you do on your soul records? Yeah, no, no, no, no, no.

I heard every word of a girl. I really did. I want to play another personal favorite from your country recordings, and this is You Don't Know Me. Oh, yeah, all right. Would you tell us about why you chose this song? Oh, I think, again, the songs that I choose, I start with the lyrics. What are the lyrics saying to me?

What kind of story are they telling me? You know, I guess it's like an actor who looks at a script, you know, because, you know, when you look at lyrics, you know, you got to tell a story in three minutes. You know, you don't have two hours like you do when you got a script. You got to say what you got to say, and make it believe, within three minutes. So I start

with the lyrics, you know. And when I start with the lyrics, I tell myself now how many people will this song fit? I mean, does it sound like most people can relate to it? And you tell yourself

yeah, mm-hmm. You give your hand to me and then you say, I watch you walk away, you know. You can see, or when you hear somebody says, I can't stop loving you, I made up my mind. Just think of the people say that, you know? And so I always start with the lyrics. To see, does the lyrics carry any real meaning, not just for me, but for the people who are going to be listening

to me? Well, let's hear, you don't know me. And the song was written by Cindy Walker and Eddie Arnold. And this is Ray Charles' 1962 recording of it now reissued. on his CD box set, The Complete Country and Western Recording's 1959 to 1986. You give your hand to me, and then you say hello, and I can hardly speak. My heart is beating so,

and anyone can tell. You think you know me well, but you don't know me. No, you don't know the one who dreams of you at night And longs to kiss your lips And longs to hold you tight Oh, I'm just a friend That's all I've ever been

Because you don't know me No you don't know me For I never knew The art I'm making love Though my heart aches with love for you As we mentioned, you grew up in the country And I think it was at about the age of seven That you lost your sight

And you lost it gradually over a period of a couple of years Did you realize what was happening? Well, as far as losing my sight, I knew that because my mom was very astute. I mean, I don't know how she managed to come up with the idea she did, you know, because she didn't have no psychologist to tell her to do this or tell her to do that. But she started, she knew I was going to lose my eyesight. And so since she knew I was going to lose my sight,

she started showing me how to get around and how to do things without seeing. Like she would tell me, okay, I'm going to, show you where this chair is okay now since you can't see that chair you're going to have to teach yourself to remember that that chair is there or you got to teach yourself to remember that that table is there or you got to teach yourself to remember to turn right when you get to da da da da da da and of course she started with me with that with me when i started to lose my eyesight so i i gained an awful lot and and of course being that age, it wasn't as much of a shock as, say, would be if I was, say, losing my sight at the age of 30 or 40 or something, where you've seen all your life.

Did you go through a long period of depression afterwards? No, because by the time I started losing my sight, for sure, I was going to a school for the deaf and the blind. And, you know, children, you know, I'm sure you're aware of this, but children can be very brutal, I mean, to each other. Yeah, no kidding, yeah. You know what I mean? And so if you go in there, like when I first went there, I was very homesick and I was crying.

You know what you go through because where I went to school was about 130 or 40 miles from where I live, you know. So there was a state school for the blind and deaf, as I said. So I was crying and missing my mom and all the, and see, kids would pick, instead of empathize or sympathize me, they would pick on you and make you feel bad, you know. So, you know, they'll get you out of that kind of groove. Was it at the boarding school for children who were blind and deaf that you first learned to play music? Exactly.

Yeah, I started. I couldn't get in the music class the first year. I was in school because the class was full. I mean, I couldn't get into piano class, so I started taking up clarinet. That's why I can play clarinet and saxophone. So you played clarinet first? Oh, yeah.

How'd you like the instrument? I loved it. Well, I was a great fan of artist, y'all. I used to love him. And everybody was talking about Benny Goodman, but I was an artist-old man. I'm 100%. And I was very impressed by what he could do with a clarinet. And naturally, he was my mentor.

I wanted to play. But obviously, I wanted to be in the piano class, but since I couldn't, I figured, well, okay, I'll play clarinet. And I did that. And, of course, but the next year, I was able to get into the piano class. Did you give up clarinet? No, I studied both. I kept studying both instruments. but naturally my heart was with the keyboard because I mean that's just because there's so much you can do when you play piano you

you know by the time I was 12 years old or 13 years old I could write a whole arrangement for a 17 piece band see that's a great thing if you study piano it gives you a whole outlook on a lot of different things it has to do with music now what kind of music were you playing in school oh well we were they they had like little little small cute little songs from Chopin that we would play or Beethoven or something like that. Not the symphonies, but the little small vignettes or whatever you call those little things that you do, you know. And of course, when I would write something, of course, I would write some kind of current song, you know, that was being played, you know, on the radio.

I was just writing the arrangement for the band to play it. And I'll tell you, that's why I don't write a score today because I started out writing the parts first. You know, most times what arrangers do, I'm sure you know this, I'm just saying for the sake of the audience, arrangers write a score first. And then when they write the score, they write the parts.

Well, I wanted to hear the music so bad, I'd write the parts first and write the score afterwards. It's kind of backward, right? You know, I interviewed Hank Crawford, who played in your band in the late 50s and early 60s. Yeah, he was my conference for a lot of years. Yeah, yeah, and he was your music. music director for a while.

Yes, right. And he said that when you did an arrangement, what you would do would be to call out the notes. That's right. He told you right. That's right. Yeah, and I thought that was so strange. I figured, oh, you'd sing the part for the person who is transcribing. You called out the notes.

No, no, no, no. I would literally tell him what note to write down. If I tell him the notes, I don't have to worry about whether I'm singing in or out of tune, do I? Oh, that's a good point, right. All right. If I tell him the notes, it can't be no mistake. You see what I mean? I don't want a hum it.

I want to, because I know how to tell him technically. All he got to do is write what I tell him. That way it can't be no mistake because if I hum it to him, I might not hum it just right or he may not hear it right or hear what I'm saying. But if I say it's C-sharp, C-sharp and C-sharp all over the world. Now, how old were you when you left school and set off on your own? I was about 15 when my mom died. So I left school

That year And what was it like for you to first Be on your own like that? Oh, it was tough But I was lucky I mean I was lucky because my mom had a friend That lived in Jacksonville

Which as I said was about a hundred Some odd miles from Greenville And my mom had always talked to me about her And told me that You know if I ever needed someone to talk to that this lady and her were very good friends. And so when my mom passed away, I fooled around for a little while in Greenville in Tallahassee.

And then I decided I would go to Jacksonville because Jacksonville was a city and I wanted to see if I could, you know, get started in music and do something. So I went there, and this lady's name was Lena Mae Thompson and her and her husband Fred Thompson. And they took me in and treated me just like I was their own kid. They fed me because I sure didn't have no money, didn't have nothing.

They bought me clothes. I mean, I was lucky, you know. And when I would get a job maybe once or twice a week or something like that, I'd give them the money, you know. Because, I mean, it wasn't that much money involved in the first place. And I know they spent way more money than I was able to give them back. Now, what were the early kinds of places you performed in? Oh, they were like places one way in and one. way out. You know what, you know what I mean? They were places like, where they, it was like dance halls,

and they would, and a lot of them would sell beer and they sell fish, fish, and chicken and stuff like that. But like I said, it was one way and one way out, so the fight broke out, you know, it was, it was kind of rough. Those were the days, I have to say, that they were good experiences, but I would not like to do them again, you know, because Like I said, we were playing dances in those days, and of course, anything could happen. Is there a record that you think of as being the first recording that you made as yourself, really establishing yourself? Probably I got a woman. I mean, that was the – because when I did that, that seemed to upset a lot of people, but it was really me.

It upset a lot of people? Oh, yeah. A lot of people thought that it was too religious. And I was bastardizing the church, and, oh, man, I got all kinds of criticism. I mean, you were using too much of a sanctified sound for a sexual record? Yeah, that's right. But it was really me. It was 100% me.

And, of course, I just said, well, I have to be criticized because I'm going to sing the way I sing. And later on, after some other people start doing it, then they start calling it soul music. It just goes to show you, I guess I was a little ahead of my time or something. Well, I think that's inarguable. Why don't we hear I Got a Woman And this is my guest, Ray Charles Well

I got a woman Way over town That's good to me Oh yeah Say I got a woman Way over town Good to me Oh yeah

She gave me money When I'm in need Yeah, she's a kind of friend indeed I got a woman Way over town That's good to me Oh yeah She says a loving

Early in the morning Just for me Oh yeah She says love in That's Ray Charles, the recording that he said was the first one that really sounded like his own style. I'd like to end our interview by asking you to choose a favorite, if you have run, from the new country music box set. There's a big selection there, but that's... Yeah, that's true.

And it'd be very hard to find what I'd call a favorite, but I can tell you one of the songs that I really love. There's an old Johnny Cash thing that I did on that called Ring of Fire, but I got it from Johnny Cash. I think it'd be real nice to play that Ring of Fire. I love that song, and it was written by his wife, June. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Yeah. Oh, no kidding. Oh, well, thank you for telling me that.

So we'll end with Ring of Fire. Why do you love the song? Well, just think of the lyrics. Just think of the lyrics. Oh, love is a burning thing. You know, oh, it talks, babe. It speaks to you. You know, I really didn't know what you just told me, but, boy, I have to see, I'm very happy to hear that.

Well, Ray Charles, it has been so wonderful to talk with you. I really thank you so much for the time. Well, Terry, it's been good talking to you, and I just want you to know not only as good to talk to you, but I'm going to keep on listening to you, too. It is an honor to hear you say that. Thank you. I really mean. Thank you very much. is a burning thing yes it is and it makes

you know it makes a fiery rain girl you know I'm bound I'm bound I'm bound I'm bound by wild desire

That's what you do to me, girl Because I don't fell I fell into your rain of fire You got me, baby I fell into the burning rain of fire I went down, down, down And oh, the flame went higher And it burns, burns, burns,

Burns A rain of fire Your rain up higher Fresh Air Fresh Air was produced this week by Teresa Madden and Heidi Saman Fresh Air's executive producer is

Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. This episode's engineer was Adam Stanishefsky. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Sherrock, Anne-Marie Baudenado, Lauren Crenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thaya Chaloner, Susan Yacundi, Anna Bauman, and John Sheen. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.