Fresh Air - Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

The director of Black Panther and Creed talks about his new genre-bending vampire movie that takes place in the Jim Crow South. It's called Sinners and it stars Michael B. Jordan as twins working a juke joint in Mississippi. He spoke with Tonya Mosley about blues music, the supernatural, and why he wanted to own the movie outright after 25 years. Also, book critic Carolina Miranda reviews The Dream Hotel by Laila Lalami.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

On this week's Wild Card podcast, Brett Goldstein says even though his shows Ted Lasso and Shrinking get emotional, he doesn't. I'm a crybaby. I guess I thought you might be like a closet crier. No. I mean, I write all this stuff because then I don't have to live it. Whoa. She's like, I got him.

I'm Rachel Martin. Brett Goldstein is on Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And my guest today is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. You probably know his name as the director of Fruitvale Station, Creed, and both Black Panther films. Well, his new film is called Sinners and it hit theaters just last week.

It delves into horror with a genre-bending thriller set in 1930s Mississippi. The story follows twin brothers, Smoke and Stack, both played by Michael B. Jordan. After surviving the trenches of World War I and navigating Chicago's criminal underworld, the brothers return home to Mississippi, hoping to start fresh by opening a juke joint. But peace does not last long. Instead, they're met by supernatural forces, vampires, who act as metaphors for oppression, exploitation, and systems that feed on black life, body, and spirit.

I only ever heard stories. I ain't never come across them myself. What stories you heard? How Hanes worked. They searched places with the soul of a man. But vampires is different. Maybe the worst kind. The soul gets stuck in the body.

Can't rejoin the ancestors. Cursed to live here with all this hate. Can't even feel the warmth of a sunrise. OK, can we bring them back? If I kill the ones that made them this way. Smoke. They have a connection, but they live on, even if the one that made them is killed.

The best thing we can do for him is free his spirit from this curse. They got to be killed one by one. How the hell do we do that? Sunlight. I wouldn't stake that on. Ryan Coogler says Sinners is also a tribute to his late uncle James,

who first introduced him to the blues. When he was a kid, Coogler would soak up his uncle's stories about Mississippi as old Delta blues records spun in the background. Coogler's debut into the film world happened in 2013 with Fruitvale Station, which chronicled the final hours of Oscar Grant, a young black man killed by police in Oakland. Since then, he's become the highest-grossing black filmmaker in history and the youngest director to helm a billion- dollar movie with

Black Panther. He decided to press pause on making Black Panther 3 to take the risk of making Sinners. Ryan Coogler, welcome to Fresh Air and congrats on this film. I have seen it twice and I enjoyed it very much. Hey, I appreciate you having me. I'm really thrilled to be here. So Ryan, you put Black Panther 3 on hold. That is a billion dollar franchise, as I mentioned, to make this film in a moment when

it seems like Hollywood is kind of playing it safe to sequels and remakes. What made you say, this is the story I have to tell now? And even if it means stepping away from the success of something like a Marvel machine, did that feel like a risk? Yes. But to be honest with you, it would have been more of a risk to not make it. The movie was kind of on my heart. And when you have something that clear for me, it's a rare thing and I had this idea.

And it was very, well, I will go back to say, I didn't put anything on hold for this. It was more, that last Panther film took a lot of time. It took more time than any of us had anticipated it to take. Those movies tend to take about two years. This one took four because of. The last Black Panther film.

Yeah, the Black Panther were kind of favorite. It was because of the tragic passing of Chadwick Boseman. Rest in peace. The global pandemic. And in making those films, man, like there's so many, there's so much interest. There's so many people involved. There's so many industries that are around.

When it comes to a Marvel film, right? Yes. Yes, right. Yes. Yes, yes. Because, you know, and it is, I'm not complaining about it. But there is a lot of pressure around those movies. And I just made two back to back. You know, so I was coming off of both of those projects, you know, knowing there was no way I was going to do another one next.

You know, I was going to have to do something different, you know, before I came back to that. But for me, I got hit by almost like a bolt of lightning. You said this particular film, Sinners, was like it was on your heart to do. And I want you to take us back to when that idea really clicked for you that not only the creation of a story like this, but that the story didn't have to live in one genre or even one reality because you're blending so much here. I mean, you're blending history, historical drama, action, all against the backdrop of 1930s Mississippi.

What made you realize that this mix was necessary to fully bring this story to life? This movie was like all about dichotomy, you know, and that's something that I've been dealing with my whole life, you know. And that's something that I've been dealing with my whole life. You know, this feeling of not totally fitting in or things not totally squaring with each other. You know, like coming up, I was black, I was from Oakland,

I was middle class, and I was in these neighborhoods where my parents were kind of outliers. they got married young and they went to college But they stayed in a neighborhood, you know, so I constantly as a kid Would feel like I was like living in two different worlds There's a dichotomy there and I took this took the students serious. I was like a big old giant nerd, but I was also like a very, very serious athlete, you know? And where I'm from, to be an athlete,

you like adjacent to street culture. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, you get cool points in the streets when you good at football or basketball or running track like I was. I was also raised Christian. I was raised Baptist in the Black Baptist tradition. But I was going to Catholic school.

So I was around these two very different types of Christianity and trying to reckon with that on a daily basis. And it made me very sensitive to themes of identity, you know, and the dichotomy as an idea. That's so interesting because I really feel it almost with every single character in this film. I want to talk to you in a minute about how you complicate, like, villains, but the use

of vampires in particular to like really articulate the story. One of the vampires says in the film, I want your stories and I want your songs. And that line is very important. You got to finish it though. You say something after that. He says, and you're going to have mine. You gotta finish it though. Oh finish it for me. You said something after that. Say it. He says and you're gonna have mine. Yes right right exactly exactly right it's important that's such an important line because it brings into focus that these vampires are like draining more than blood they're

draining culture and identity but they're also offering something back like in replacement of that like how did you land on using vampires as a metaphor for that kind of extraction? I mean, I'll be honest with you. To me, allegory, metaphor, all of these things, I'm not going to tell you that they're not present in my work, right? But I was not, in this case with this project, I was not being conscious of it. You know, like I was trying to, you know, I was trying to communicate a feeling through cinematic language. And the reality is, as I've gotten older in this business and in this craft, you know, I realized that if I can make something true,

it's up to the viewer to draw those parallels. You take the thing and you analyze it. And in your analysis, you might project your own experiences, your own knowledge, you know what I'm saying? And you might draw certain parallels that weren't the parallels that I was intending. But I think it's super fascinating though, that like, when I asked you the question about,

like, what drew you to this story and why you had to tell this story, you said immediately, like, my life experience is the reason why I wanted to tell this story. What drew you to a vampire story? Yeah, I love vampires, man. Like, you know,, I love horror fiction. I love horror movies.

I love fantasy. I was raised, you know, around a lot of organized religion. And vampires intersect with all of that. You know what I mean? I grew up, also grew up in Oakland, which is very dominated by street culture, you know? And, you know, all of these things, like I find vampires, they pull from all of that

in terms of supernatural creatures. And I thought when the idea came to me for this movie, I thought about other supernatural creatures as a thing that they confront at the juke joint. I went down the line, you know, like I thought about werewolves, I thought about zombies, you know, I thought about shapeshifters, which in some indigenous cultures

might be referred to as skinwalkers. I thought about all, you know, I went through the whole Rolodex, you know? And I kept coming back to vampires because of everything that the vampire implies in public consciousness. You know, vampires, it's not a stiff-ass rule, but it's pretty commonly associated with sensuality.

Vampires are expected to be sexy, usually expected to be fashionable, usually expected to be knowledgeable, usually expected to be very powerful. It's not thought of as wrong if a vampire is converted to vampirism, but they maintain their human personality, you know, their human memories.

It's a fascinating premise. You know, you'll see a version of this, you know what I mean, almost in every culture. And to me, you know, like that is just like a fascinating thing if I'm trying to have a conversation about our common humanity, you know, like, which for me, you know, this movie is about, you know, and, you know, what better to contrast, you know, oh, the other piece that the vampire evolves is the Faustian deal. I was very interested

in that. Like this crossroads, like the devil, the deal with the devilustian deal. I was very interested in that. Like this crossroads, like the devil, the deal with the devil kind of thing. Yes, Robert Johnson is who's most associated with that fable. And there's this tradition of things being taken. You know what I mean? The songs being sung over and over again,

you know, by black people, you know? And then it was eventually done by white people. You know, and because it was eventually done by white people, you know? And because it was such an awfully racist time when they built this industry, genre was kind of born out of this idea. Like where a black person would sing a song and you're talking about a back breaking form of apartheid.

You know, at this time, in a Black person sings a song, white person comes, sings the same song, same lyrics, same rhythm, same music. And they will say, all right, the Black person song, that is a race record. We're going to sell that as a race record. This song is rock and roll. You know what I mean?

We're going to sell that as rock and roll. Like that concept. You know, and imagine me in 2025 saying, I'm going to make a genre movie. Not even understanding that classification of art and how some art is above other art. You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's a period drama.

Oh, this is a genre movie. You know, I realized, oh man, my people have been at war with this, you know, from the beginning, this has been a tool kind of lobbied against us, you know. So for me, the vampire was a creature who was like human adjacent, who was human at some point, you know,

became something else. But through their advanced age, they could see society for what it was. Jack O'Connell, who plays Remick, the Irish vampire antagonist, he is relatable kind of in the same way that I'm thinking about Killmonger and Black Panther, was relatable. Like, in many ways ways, saying kind of speaking the truth, speaking the truth to systems of oppression, what draws you to creating antagonists

who are in many ways right about the things that they know? You know, it's not such a straight line, good guy, bad guy, like each one is complicated. I think that's scarier, you know? It is scarier, yes. Say more about that. I think it's more frightening when, the film is about blues music, right?

Which is storytelling. But it's also a music that I think was made to help people who were constantly under attack, to help them cope, to help them feel better, and to remind them that they were human. You know what I mean? To remind them. And that's what the music is.

And for me, to have a creature who's incredibly powerful, who was human at a time, who is in pain, you know? And who needs to cope in a way that only a community can give him. If I can make a film where you're afraid of this guy, you know what I mean, but that's really what's going on with him. I thought about it after I wrote it and I said, oh man, who does he lie to and who is he honest with?

Because for me, it's very clear that he identifies with these people. Meaning like the black people, right? 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He identifies with them. And that connection between what we experience, we being African-Americans, foundational African-Americans who experience under the forcible removal from the continent of Africa

and placement in the Americas and the systems that were built after that, our experience and the experience of the Irish people being forced to work land that has immeasurable abundance and wealth but being denied that. Yeah, so I mean like the connections between the two cultures are really obvious to spot, you know, but also the history here in the States is very complicated, you know what

I mean? Like, you know, because of the mobility of certain immigrants, the ability to become white. You know what I mean? Right, the Irish became white. Yeah, and what that took as it relates to camaraderie with us, you know what I mean? A decision had to be made, you know what I'm saying?

And when you make a movie about American blues music, you know what I'm saying? And when you make a movie about American blues music, you know what I'm saying? Like the Irish folks got to have a place in that, you know what I mean? Like they were there. It's so interesting because I think that most of us don't know that history. And so when it shows up in the film, it makes sense when you go back and you read the history, which I did, because I didn't know it going into this film, but I had to learn it afterwards. There's also the Chinese American store owners who in the film operate these two grocery stores. So one is in the black part of town and then one is in the white zone and they kind of exist in like this cultural limbo.

Well, I mean, it's across the street from each other. Yeah, it's the white side of the street and the black side. Yeah. Right. I mean, they're never fully kind of accepted in white or black communities, but more so, it feels like, in black communities. I had a friend who saw the movie and said, like, did this really happen? When did you learn about that history?

You know, the reality is they were accepted in the black community. You know, how we found out was was ironic like like um, you know Ten years or so back. We're doing 23 and me, you know, and I was obviously lost I say they in the news a lot lately I've been seeing but but um, you know I was trying to find out that their heritage in for Foundational black people, you know, we was jumping on it right because because because of right? Because of all of the indignities done to our ancestors at the top of it was the deliberate splitting

of ethnic groups through the Transatlantic slave trade to quell rebellions that were constantly happening. So as a result of that, we don't know where ethnic group we're from. I spat in the tube and checked it out and they just came back. It came back like 86% West African. And I was like, oh man, I didn't tell me what I... I knew that. And I shared it with Chad, with Boseman when we met.

And he said, hey man, check out African ancestry because they do it the proper way. You can really find out some answers to these questions. And I did mine and my wife, whose father is African American, her mom is from the Philippines. You know what I'm saying? Sorry, Pops takes the test. He tests his X chromosome and his Y chromosome, right?

His X chromosome comes back West African. Guess what his Y chromosome comes back? Chinese, Han Chinese. You know, this man is in his 90s. He opened that packet up and said like, what the? You know what I mean? And where was he from? He was born in Chicago.

Where was his parents from? From Mississippi. That's right. So we started digging into it, you know what I'm saying? You know, we find out that, you know, my wife's black dad comes from these people. The Erasure, you know, they were there. You know, that is not, you know, like what I like to say,

the only thing false in this movie is the vampires, you know what I'm saying? You know, they were absolutely there. Our guest today is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. We'll be back right after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley and this is Fresh Air. This message comes from NPR sponsor Air Canada. Ready for your next adventure?

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The technical wow factor to the way the images popped is really striking. Specifically for me, the cotton field driving scenes, were those real cotton fields? They were, but we had to transplant them. And then we used digital technology to replicate them at times. Did you ever have a moment in a cotton field in the making of this? Oh yeah. Well, I had a moment before. When I was still trying, when I didn't have a movie in my head just yet, but I was dealing with a lot of the elements. I was working on Panther 2, and I was in Byron, Georgia,

and I looked out of the window when my team was driving me to the hotel, and I saw my first cotton field in person. What was that like? Man, it really messed me up, man. I told you to pull over, because I was already sad and contemplative, you know what I mean? And I got out the car over, you know, because I was already sad and contemplative, you know what I mean? And I got out the car and walked into it

and, you know, took a piece. I took a piece home. I still got it at home now. But, you know, the fact that I had been at this age and done all that I'd done and had never seen, you know, I wear cotton every day. You know, and I know the story of my people. And, you know, the that um what for many years has been the most

powerful you know empire in the world sentenced them to that being a life working in these cash crop fields and I like looking at it seeing it for the first for the first time it messed me up and I know I wasn't done with it. I'm really struck by what you said that, you know, the blues connected people to their humanity. It reminded them that they were human. And blues serves really as the sound and the soul of this film. Your relationship with the blues, you talk about your Uncle James. What music did he play around you? What was he into?

Man, he played all of it, man. He was big on Albert King. He was big on Muddy. He was big on Holland Wolf. He was big on Coco Taylor. Big on John Lee Hooker. Sonny Boy Williamson, Mississippi Frag McDowell. He's big on all of them, man. You being a kid of the 80s and the 90s, what was it like for you to sit at his knee and listen to that music? Did you appreciate it at that young age? I just liked being with him.

I wasn't thinking about the music. You know, like, I associated it with him. And at that time, the blues wasn't for... I didn't think the blues was for me. I didn't think it was mine. You know, like it was just all mans. And like, to be honest with you, I thought the blues was like for white people.

You know what I'm saying? Cause at that time, you know, you had like the movie, The Blues Brothers, which I hadn't seen, but you know, on the poster was these white dudes with these hats. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know? And so I was like, okay, you know,

the blues is for all black people and it's for white people. You know what I'm saying? Cause I was listening to Tupac and what's crazy is my favorite song, group and music video was Bone Thug's Crossroads. Not even knowing that like, you know what I'm saying, like that's a blues thing.

You know what I mean? Like it made its way in the Cleveland gangster rap, but it was really that, you know, but I didn't know. I was a kid and it took my uncle dying. And then me listening to the music without him anymore, to explain it to me, but I'm trying to hang on to every word, trying to see if, you know what I'm saying, like if I could get a clue about my uncle's life

or like why he liked this stuff, you know what I'm saying? And then boom, I realized the brilliance of it, like that this was the base that everything came out of. How did Legendary Blues guitarist Buddy Guy become part of this project? It was so cool to see him. That was like a really cool cameo. Buddy Guy was like the last musician my uncle would go see consistently. You know, he would get dressed up and go to his concerts, like up to his death. So when I was finishing up the script, I had this idea when I got to those last few scenes,

I was like, oh man, wouldn't it be cool if, like, wouldn't my uncle get a kick out of Buddy Guy being in this movie, you know? So I kinda got that, I kinda had that idea, and I talked to my casting director, Francine Masler, and my producers, Zanzi and Sev, and said, hey, I wanna try to get Buddy Guy in this movie. And everybody kinda panicked a little bit.

But then we got into it, and Zinzi and I went out there and went to his restaurant, Blues Club, Legends. I fully expected Buddy Guy to say, hey man, it's nice to meet you kid, but I'm not being in a movie. You know what I mean? Like I'm good. I'm almost 90 years old, bro.

I don't have time for that. And so I was prepared for that. But his kids, man, they were smiling at me. You know, and I go to sit down, he's like, look, I don't know who you are or what you do, but my grandkids tell me I should sit with you. And I should hear you out. And I've decided, whatever you need from me,

because they speak so highly of you, you know what I mean? Has he seen the film? Have you guys talked to him? He has, yeah, we showed it to him in Chicago. What did he say? He gave it a stamp of approval, you know, because that was his life, man. He was a sharecropper in Louisiana.

And had to make the decision to leave home. And he has so many beautiful stories, but a lot of them are heartbreaking, man. Like, he wears He wears polka dots polka dot suits polka dot guitars and Um and I asked him why and he said when he when he left home to become a blues musician He told his mom he was gonna make enough money to buy her a polka dot Cadillac

You know and she and she passed away before he could do it. So the polka dots became his trademark. You know what I'm saying? And just that story of him having like me imagining this this nearly 90 year old man having explained to his mom, hey, I'm gonna leave home. I'm gonna try to go make it with the guitar. You know, while she's in what was a slave shack in Louisiana. You know what I mean? Like sharecro guitar, you know, while she's in what was a slave shack in Louisiana. You know what I mean?

Like sharecropping, you know, and he's here in 2025 completely lucid telling me all about it. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. There is this moment when one of the twins, he says something like, it's better to deal with the devil you know. And he's referring to having lived in Chicago and up north and gone all across the world, but now he's back in Mississippi.

And you being a guy who was born and raised on the West Coast in Oakland, your accent gives it away. What did you learn growing up about kind of those myths? Like you talk about the shame a little bit, but those myths that somehow the West or the North or the East was better than the South? I was born in the wake of the military defeat of the Black Panthers. So that dream of a better life in the West, I was gone.

You did not grow up with that myth that where you are is better than the South? No, I grew up, look, the first movie I seen in theaters was Boys in the Hood, you know, which, you know, I was five years old, my dad took me to see that movie, and that was what was happening, you know, down on Highway 5 for months. You know, I was four years old. You saw Boys in the Hood at four years old?

I might have been actually five, yeah. I was like I might have actually five. Yeah I was born at 86. I think that movie came out 91. Yeah, I was five years old you know my dad but but my you know, my dad was you know dad in his 20s he heard that there was a He had just lost his father before I was born My mom's dad died before he before I was born. It both my parents fathers died within two weeks of each other right after they got married and before I was born. Both my parents' fathers died within two weeks of each other, right after they got married. And I heard that this was a movie black fathers

were texting their sons to, so he took me. Did the same thing with Malcolm X, like six months later. Five years old in the theater, watching Boys in the Hood, do you remember the scenes that like, I remember everything. Were seared into your brain that stuck with you? Cause that's a real powerful movie for a five year old.

I remember the whole movie. Yeah, my memory with movies is pretty solid. Yeah, I remember all of it. I saw Malcolm X shortly after and it was really ironic cause we just premiered Sinners in that same room, in that same theater. And my dad sat in the same row. You noted in the moment that while my dad is sitting in that same row and we're in the same theater. Absolutely, man. I was a mess. Yeah, I was a mess the whole night. Yeah, I was a mess the whole night.

It was my favorite screening of anything I ever made. You and Michael B. Jordan, you guys have worked on Fruitvale Station and Creed, Blank Panther, and now Sinners. In Sinners, he plays twin brothers. Why twins? Great question. The film deals with dichotomy, as I mentioned, and I was born into a family with loads of twins, specifically like my mom's older sisters, who are identical, Monty Merlin and Monty Curlin. So you saw that intimacy of twins up close. Oh yeah, my whole life.

I can't, like my aunts have always been around. One of them is my godmother, you know. So they've always been a part of my life. The dynamic between them and the stories, they're in their seventies now and they live next door to each other. But the stories man, of like them beating people up and you know, like the fact that they can't live

with each other, they can't live without, they're constantly arguing, you know, the games they would play with people when people couldn't tell them apart. And the fact that us and our family always could, we could turn our backs and feel one of them come into the room and know which one it was, you know what I'm saying?

So it was something that I was always interested in exploring and it felt mythical. The other thing is like identical twins are kind of always outlaws, you know identical twins are kind of always outlaws. You know, they're kind of always local celebrities. And like, there's always like a level of, of othering that happens with them. So I was talking to a filmmaker,

Ramell Ross a few months ago about his basketball career. Oh yeah, Ramell, yeah, yeah, yeah. He relayed how hard it was for him, because you know, he played basketball from the time he was a kid all the way through college and then he got an injury and it took him a long time to like sit in this role as filmmaker and you have a similar story you played football in college you suffered a shoulder injury what was that

process of transition like for you especially when there's so much of your identity tied to like being a ballplayer it was it was so so I wasn't totally accurate I got I suffered a lot of injuries, broke all type of bones. But injuries didn't take me out. I was actually healthy when I stopped, which was more difficult than if I wouldn't have been, I think, you know, because I made the decision to stop playing

when I could have kept playing. Why you make that decision? I think my heart was in filmmaking more and I knew I wanted to make films while I was young. Cause I felt like young people weren't represented in the industry behind the camera. I could feel it in the movies whenever I watched a movie about a young person, I was like, man, I I could feel it in the movies. Whenever I watched a movie about a young person,

I was like, man, I don't know if this is accurate. You know, and I realized, oh yeah, man, like, you know, the average age for somebody directing something is a lot higher than these characters they portraying, you know, and for me, you know, I wanted to try to get going early. I had this instinct that I should try to, I got something to say now, if that makes sense.

To be a voice of a generation. I wouldn't say all of that. To be a voice of a generation, like one of the voices. Yeah, yeah, one of them, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of them, for sure. I wanted to contribute while I still was young. That was all. And I realized that I liked the movies by young filmmakers

I remember watching Mean Streets and saying oh, yeah, that's a different score says he didn't then Think then Goodfellas or or the party, you know, I'm saying I just feels like I can feel his youth You know what I'm saying or or do the right thing? You know Varsha's black Klansman, you know saying both both Klansmen. You know what I'm saying? Both great movies, but like, it's a different spike. Movies made by young people are almost always really dynamic, that they use and they optimism and they anger kind of infects the cinema.

So I wanted to do that, you know, like, and it was like, damn, like I could keep playing football and see how long it takes me. But I had a feeling that it would be a while if I kept pursuing ball. You know, I thought I could play for a little bit more. I wanna end asking you about Legacy because I heard there was a bidding war over centers

and part of the deal was that you'd retain Final Cut and you'd get share of the theatrical opening and eventually own the film outright after 25 years which I felt like that's such a boss move. Is that all right first off and why was it important for you? I mean it's some truth that some of those articles like nothing I haven't seen any that were totally accurate. But the thing is, those terms are not new terms. They're not unique. I will say they are unique, but there are other filmmakers out there in the world

who have not made as much money as I have at the box office who've had these terms for a long time. It's not that unique, you know, for me to have asked for these terms and for me to have received them, right? You know, I wrote the script on spec. My production company has made some really incredible movies in the past, you know,

and there was no shortage of companies that wanted to work with us, thankfully. You know what I mean? Like, for me, the film was so personal and about my family. And you know, 100 years ago, my family were sharecroppers. 100 years before that, they were in a different type of situation, if you catch what I'm saying.

Um, so for me, that was something that I stood on, you know, that my company stood on, you know, and I was so thrilled that Warner Brothers was comfortable with us standing on that and saw value in this project. And I have to imagine there were some people that were upset about it. You know what I mean? Well, I feel like owning centers outright after 25 years, I mean, it is a long play and I just wonder long time. I pray that I'm still around. But is it something that

you imagine expanding or revisiting or building upon? I wouldn't rule anything out, but that was not the reason. Like the reason for me was just, for me it was just this story that I wanted to, you listed the films that I've made before. I made these movies when I was very young and they came at a steep price. I was not there when my uncle died because I was making a movie.

I was not there when my uncle died because I was making a movie. I miss so much, you know, making these movies before I was 40 years old. And they've done well over $2 billion at the box office. You understand? And I will never own any of these movies. The next movie I'll make, Black Panther 3,

I will not own that. Disney won't own that. You know? It was time for me to own this. Ryan Coogler, this has been such a pleasure to be in conversation with you. Thank you so much for this and thank you for this film. Thank you for watching and thank you for talking about it and bringing your brilliant expertise to it. I'm looking forward to folks hearing it. Ryan Coogler's new film Sinners is now in theaters.

After a short break, Carolina Miranda reviews a new novel by Layla Lalami. This is Fresh Air. In her new novel, The Dream Hotel, author Layla Lalami plunges us into the story of a woman who is imprisoned solely on the basis that she might commit a crime. Lalami, who was born in Morocco and is now based in Los Angeles, won the American Book Award for her 2014 historical novel The Moor's Account. It was also a finalist for Pulitzer Prize. Contributor Carolina Miranda reviews Lalami's novel

and the disquieting ways it speaks to our tech-saturated lives. Sarah Hussein hasn't committed a crime, but perhaps she was flagged because she dreamt about it, or because of the heated argument she'd had with a crackpot on social media, or maybe it was the images of early 20th century Moroccan rebel fighters she'd been posting to the internet. Whatever the cause, Sarah now finds herself incarcerated in the California desert because an algorithm has determined she's an imminent risk. What exactly that risk may be and when and under

what conditions she might be released, is anybody's guess. This is the dystopian premise of Leila Lallamy's gripping new novel, The Dream Hotel. In this unsettling vision of the future, a company called DreamCloud makes brain implants that give insomniacs like Sarah a better night's rest while also harvesting valuable data from their dreams. The blandly titled Risk Assessment Administration assigns individuals a score that determines how likely a person might be to commit a violent crime, but how that score is calculated is

confidential. And the places where high-risk individuals are held for observation, called retention centers, are run by a private company called Safex that contracts out detainees as cheap labor to corporations. Into the crosshairs of these overlapping systems steps Sarah, a busy 30-something mother of twins who works as a museum archivist in Los Angeles. She's in the process of returning from a conference in London when an elevated risk score, based partly on data taken from her dreams,

gets her dinged for retention at LAX. The Dream Hotel has been compared to Philip K. Dick's 1956 science fiction novella, The Minority Report. That story imagined a society in which police arrest people for the crimes they have not yet committed based on data produced by a trio of humans with predictive powers. But The Minority Report, with its snappy gumshoe dialogue, is told from the perspective of the police. Lallamy instead sends us down the psychological rabbit hole of what it means to be incarcerated

without due process, in a world where your fate is decided by algorithms. The narrative is propulsive, but what makes the novel so absorbing are the ways the author makes this near-future world come to life. Much of the story is presented as an omniscient third-person narrative, but in between, Lallamy inserts fragments of emails, corporate reports, and bits of a procedural manual, all of which give insight into the systems that keep people like Sarah indefinitely detained. Ultimately, it is Sarah who is the beating heart of this remarkable story.

And Lallamy gives us a character that isn't simply an archetype, but a real human being full of ambition and ambivalence. Sarah is a scholar of post-colonial African history who works at the Getty Museum. She's also a woman who dwells on her insecurities and on petty annoyances like the mundane squabbles she has with her husband. Occasionally, she's betrayed by her own irritability. The novel credibly conveys her harrowing sense of disorientation as the wide world she once inhabited

is reduced to a cell. Sarah's most relatable trait is the struggle she faces trying to contain the rage that she feels over her situation, rage that, if expressed, will only worsen her circumstances. As the narrator tells us, compliance begins in the body. The trick is to hide any flicker of personality or hint of difference. It's a condition that isn't specific to her incarceration.

As a woman of color, Sarah's of Moroccan descent, she's not the kind of person who has generally afforded the benefit of expressing anger. To inhabit Sarah's story is to hear the echoes of real people who are held in private immigration detention centers, who have no legal recourse and no timeline for when they might get released. Her book also paints a grim picture about the ways in which our data can betray us. Lollamy was inspired to write the novel after receiving a notification from her smartphone giving her the travel time to a yoga class.

But she had never set such a reminder. Her phone was simply keeping track of her personal habits. The Dream Hotel is a suspenseful novel. The book's simmering tension is whether Sarah will be able to find a way out of this trap. This ordinary woman who has plotted through life has to figure out how to undermine a system that has overtaken her mind and her body. Carolina Miranda Reviewed The Dream Hotel by Layla Lalami Tomorrow on Fresh Air, journalist Paul Tuff on the mystery of ADHD, attention

deficit hyperactivity disorder. While millions of Americans have the diagnosis and are treated with stimulants, there is no scientific consensus about the biological roots of the condition and some medical concerns about common treatments. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Annemarie Baldonato, Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Faya Challener, Susan Ngocundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.