Fresh Air - Singer-Songwriter Randy Newman

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

The witty, cynical and often tongue-in-cheek songwriter Randy Newman is the subject of a new biography. He also wrote a bunch of film scores, including the music for Toy Story, Ragtime, A Bug's Life, and Monsters, Inc. We're revisiting Newman's interview with Terry Gross from 1998 and Ken Tucker reviews the book, A Few Words in Defense of Our Country.Justin Chang reviews the new Vatican thriller Conclave.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at autographcollection.com. This is Fresh Air. I'm David B. and Cooley. Some people don't know Randy Newman's name, but they do know his celebrated movie songs, like You've Got a Friend in Me from Toy Story. Some people also know him as the guy who wrote a big novelty hit about short people.

And a smaller number are aware of a large body of work, including dark songs about relationships, racism, geopolitics, pollution, and religion, that ranks among the finest pop music to emerge from Los Angeles in the latter part of the 20th century. A new biography of Newman by Robert Hilburn takes its title from one of Newman's songs. It's called A Few Words in Defense of Our Country.

And rock critic Ken Tucker says it presents all these facets of Newman's life. ["The Wind Has Changed"] Three of Randy Newman's uncles were Hollywood film composers, and their skill and success was apparently, according to this new biography, a huge burden for a young Randy Newman, who knew he too wanted to be a musician, but doubted his talent. He took refuge in music his uncles ignored, rock and roll, especially the tumbling piano hits of Fats Domino. Rock music gave Newman an escape route into both fantasy and social commentary, and soon

he was making up characters and inhabiting them. You looked like a princess the night we met With your hair piled up high I will never forget I'm drunk right now baby But I've got to be I never could tell you what you mean to me. I loved you the first time I saw you. And I always will love you Marie. That's the achingly beautiful Marie from the 1974 album Good Old Boys. In Robert Hilburn's telling, Newman is torn between two impulses as an artist. He wants to have hits, writing pop music after all means it should be popular, and he wants

to say something, to express opinions on racism, sexism, and the always fraught grander of the American dream. I don't love the sea, I don't love Jesus He never done a thing for me I ain't pretty like my sister, small like my dad But good like my mama That's plenty thrillingly sour It's Money That I Love from 1979. This biography spends its nearly 500 pages trying to get at the sources of Newman's range and ambition. Along the way, the book describes a recording industry that no longer exists. When Newman's childhood pal Lenny Warenker became a Warner Brothers executive, he was

able to sign Newman and nurture his friends' lovely but eccentric, oblique but abrasive music for the near decade it took to yield a hit, Short People, in 1977. No record company would do that nowadays, but what Warners ended up getting was far more than a novelty smash. They got rich film scores, character sketches of the exploited and the creepy, and much prickly historical observation. We don't want your love. Respecting this boy is pretty much out of the question.

Times like these, we sure could use a friend. That's the song that gives this book its title, 2008's A Few Words in Defense of Our Country. What I was struck by over and over as I prepared this review was how much Newman's work ever since his debut in 1968 anticipates the times we're living through today. The writing in this biography isn't really worthy of its subject. Hilburn was a workman-like newspaper writer, pop critic for the Los Angeles Times for 35 years, who rarely manufactures gleaming prose. But here, he's performed the heroic, brute labor of interviewing seemingly everybody

in Newman's life and organizes it into a narrative that will convince any relative newcomer to Newman's work that this guy is some kind of genius. Why won't he go away? I passed the roses of the dead They're calling me to join their group But I stagger on instead Dear God, sweet God, protect me from the truth, hey! I'm dead but I don't know it He's dead, he's dead I'm dead but I don't know it He's dead, he's dead I'm dead but I don't know it Of course, defining Newman's genius has always been the difficult part, if only because it's

so wide-ranging. He's composed some of the prettiest melodies and cleverest lyrics of the modern era. He's sung in the voice of a slave trader in the song Sail Away and in the character of an unabashed racist in the song Rednecks. Newman essentially introduced the unreliable narrator to singer-songwriter pop and for that he has been misunderstood as agreeing with the Redneck or actually hating short people. Now more than ever, he's not a pop star for the mawkish literal minded strain in our current culture.

Randy Newman is now 80 years old. One of his masterpieces, Good Old Boys, is celebrating its 50th anniversary this year. It remains so alive, so vital. I urge you to go and listen to it. Ken Tucker reviewed the new biography of Randy Newman written by Robert Hilburn called A Few Words in Defense of Our

Country. I'll be home I'll be home When your nights are troubled And you're alone When you're feeling down, you need some sympathy. There's no one else around to keep you or come for me Remember baby, you can always count on me I'll be home, I'll be home, I'll be home With the release of this new biography of Randy Newman, we thought it would be good to hear from the man himself.

In 1998, Terry Gross spoke with him. At the time, he had a new four CD box set called Guilty, 30 Years of Randy Newman. It collected his studio recordings, including classics like Sail Away, Lonely at the Top, Rednecks, and Political Science. It also featured demos and other previously unreleased tracks, and scores from such films as Ragtime, The Natural, Parenthood, and Toy Story. Let's hear Terry's 1998 interview with Randy Newman. Randy Newman, welcome back to Fresh Air. It's good to be here. I want to focus on that third CD, the CD of mostly demos and previously unreleased material. The first song on that CD is called Golden Grid Iron Boy and this is a song about not getting the girls and not being a

football hero. How did you write this song? I don't know. It sounds like I wrote it with my foot now, but I was 18. Actually, I got it wrong. It should have been Gridiron Golden Boy. I mean, that's the way I wrote it, but I must have got flustered at the recording session. And I think Lenny Warnker called me and said, oh, why don't you write a song? I started writing songs when I was like 16, and it was football season, and he was a giant football fan, and I was a football fan.

He said, you know, why don't you write a football song? As if it were completely archaic form in the first place. Besides, you know, the nerd doesn't end up getting the girl or anything. It's a very strange effort. Speaking of strange, this record was produced by Pat Boone. How did you get hooked up with Pat Boone? My father was a doctor and Pat Boone was a patient and he heard me sing and was one of the first people actually to like the way I sung, you know, so I'm forever grateful

to him. Now, Glenn Campbell was featured on guitar on this track. Yeah, yeah, he did a lot of demos. He's probably done a lot of these other things too. He was doing demos then. When I started, the first people I worked with were Leon Russell and David Gates, who later went on to perform Bread, and Jimmy Gordon, who was in Blind Faith and a lot of those people played demos, early demos with me.

Well let's hear Golden Gridiron Boy. Do you want to say anything else about it before we spin it? No, I'll say what I said in the liner notes of the box set, love means never having to say you're sorry. Okay. This is Randy Newman recorded in 1962. I love him all Cause he's a football hero Hero She's in love with him

Yeah, yeah In every game it's still the same She talks, nothing but him Hooray Oh, when he makes a touchdown Touchdown She goes wild with joy Yeah

With every score I lose more ground to her golden-grit ironborn. Hey, hey, hey! I'm too small to make the team. I can only play in the pen. But I'm still enough to have a dream that one day she'll understand that I'm the one who loves her. He loves the cheers of the crowd. One day she'll see what she means to me and I know that she'll be proud.

Yeah, I'm too small to make the team. I can only play in the band But I'm big enough to have a dream That one day she'll understand That he just loves the glory That's all he'll ever enjoy And that's the inside story Of her golden red iron boy Yeah, that's the inside story of her golden, red iron boy. Yeah, that's the inside story of her golden, red iron boy.

Randy Newman, did you expect that to be a hit? No, I didn't. I don't think I did. And you were right. I was right. Yeah. I almost never have. All it's been is like a skeleton in the closet.

But you know, it's a very sad song when I really listen to it. The guy, I'm too small to make the team, wow. I can only play in the band. Quite admission, yeah. Didn't exactly have my finger on the pulse of the American public's desire for heroes, you know. So you weren't expecting to be a singer, but you were hoping to be a songwriter. You were a songwriter. I was. You were writing for a publishing company. And I was. What was your image of a songwriter back then? This was a kind of transitional period in the early 60s, you know, you're past Tin Pan Alley, you're kind of in the

the end of the the Liber and Stoller era and right at the kind of dawn of the big of the period where bands are going to be writing their own songs. The image that I cherish and love is the image of it. I don't know whether you would remember, was like, I remember Donald O'Connor and Sid Fields, I think they used to play this song, where I'd hear, listen to this, listen to this. Jimmy Cagney had a movie like that once, except he was a writer, I can't think it was, with Pat O'Brien.

I loved the idea of these two guys getting all excited about some, you know, Korean War song or something. The image I had was that ancient motion picture image of Tin Pan Alley and, you know, two guys hammering it out. And it was also of Carole King and Jerry Goffin and barry man and sent the while and the people were very successful uh... contemporaneously with my attempts to write songs for people i want to get to another trap this is a song called love is blind which is uh... you know just as

the first time that we hold her golden gridiron boys are out of character for you this kind of cheerful or not cheerful medicine that an upbeat football song. It's a generic lyric. That's what it is. Right. You say in the notes that you wrote it when you were 18. Yeah. So you were 18 and already writing that love is bitter, love is hopeless, love is blind. It leads me to think that you already had a sense of yourself as writing more dark and cynical songs than your average songwriter.

Well, there are some pretty lugubrious love songs. A lot of them are pretty bleak. He stopped loving her today and a lot of country things. But I was a pretty down cat, I guess. I don't know. Well, let's hear this song, is blind written in about 1962 the recording we'll hear is 1968 and this is from Randy Newman's Box set guilty 30 years of Randy Newman They say that love sweet

For lovers the sun will always shine But in spite of what they say, I think of love this way Love is bitter, love is hopeless, love is blind Hopeless love is blind I learned a hard and lonely way Love can't last through the year I spent a thousand empty yesterday hiding behind a veil of tears Now poets may write about love and wise men may sing his praise, but I'll always remember as I go through the empty day, Love is bitter, love is hopeless, Love is blind. One of the demos on Randy Newman's box set guilty.

What were you saying there? I was laughing at the ending. I was just sort of aimless wandering in the motion picture movie business, we call it grazing. I was waiting to end it. I know where I should have gone, but I didn't go there. It made me laugh. Well, that was a demo. Did you ever record it other than that for yourself?

No. I never thought enough of it. Well, I like it a lot. Why don't you like it? Yeah, I do too. Okay. Oh, Veil of Tears. Well, I like it a lot. Why don't you like it? Yeah, I do too. Okay. Oh, Veil of Tears, things like that. Well, sure.

Yeah, sure, but I mean, I grew to not be able to stand that stuff coming from myself. I mean, I'll listen to records and love them and they'll have lyrics like that in them, but I can't do it. You know, it's like, if you know better, don't do it. Randy Newman speaking to Terry Gross in 1998. After a break, we'll hear more of their conversation. And film critic Justin Chang reviews the new thriller Conclave, set in the Vatican.

I'm David B. Inculli and this is Fresh Air. New York City, it's cold and it's damp And all the people dressed like monkeys Let's leave Chicago to the Eskimo That town's a little bit too rugged For you and me, you bad girl Rollin' down the imperial highway The big man's stupidin' at my side Santa and the winds blowin' hot from the north We were born to ride Roll down the wind, put down the top Crank up the beach, boys, baby Don't let the music stop us We're gonna ride it till we Just can't ride it no more

From the side face to the body From the west side to the east side Everybody's very happy Cause the sun is shining all the time It's like another perfect day I love L.A. We love it I love L.A.

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Support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer Family Foundation, supporting WHYY's Fresh Air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation. This is Fresh Air. I'm David Bianculli, Professor of Television Studies at Rowan University. We're listening to Terry's 1998 interview with singer, songwriter, and composer Randy Newman,

whose ironic popular songs include Short People, I Love L.A., and Lonely at the Top. He's also written scores for the films Ragtime, The Natural, Toy Story, Monsters, Inc., and more. When Terry spoke with him, he had just released a four CD box set compiling 30 years of his work. Nia, you were telling us before that when you started writing songs, you didn't think of yourself as a singer. When did you actually start performing your own songs and thinking of yourself as a performer?

Well, it would be two separate answers probably. I mean, I think the first time I was on stage was in 1970. And I remember the first time I played it was in some place in San Anselmo, the Lions something, Lionshear. And my back was to the audience and I think I took a Dexedrine or something which made me go inward a bit. And my back was facing them and I was a little upright piano and I just played and it was the last time I ever took anything you know on stage and it was just kind of

uncomfortable but I sort of liked it the next time I performed I did like it and I still do and which is the reason for doing it but I and so I thought of myself as a performer yeah right you know sometime in 1970, 1971 Not in the traditional sense, but I could make an audience laugh and and they'd sit get quiet for the songs It's supposed to be quiet for and uh And I liked it. It's it's uh, a good deal easier than than writing. Uh I for me I think that you're becoming a singer opened up your songs in terms of subject matter too.

I mean how many other singers would be willing to sing songs in the persona of a racist or of someone who's very insecure and unsure of themselves in the way that a lot of the characters in your songs are? True. Actually, you know, there's more of it lately than there ever has been. You know, a lot of these great girl writers are willing to admit to insecurities and bad behavior and with knowledge. You know, people write songs where they behave badly, you know, she's having my baby and things like that and don't realize it, you know? But if it's a conscious artistic thing, you know,

some of the rap too is that way. It's a very unusual, you're right, it's an unusual to take on a persona that's less than heroic or admirable. But I'd started doing it in 65 and I still didn't think of myself as necessarily having a recording career. I'm so precise about this date because of this box set I can hear that Simon Smith was like the first song that I wrote that was a little, I believe a little off center. Maybe there's an earlier one, I don't know. Well, I want to get to another song from the third CD of the box set and again this is the CD with the previously unreleased sessions and the demos.

A couple of the tracks from the CD are from a live album that was released, though I think it might not have been perfectly distributed. And the song I want to play is called Maybe I'm Doing It Wrong, and it's a waltz about sex not quite measuring up to what it's supposed to be or or uh... individual not measuring yeah yeah you're right you're right well well both insecure about his performance and about that's right the response that he's getting

uh... in himself uh... is so many pop songs are supposed to be is some of the voice of this seducer who's bragging about how good a lover he is yeah i Did you intend this to subvert that kind of song? Yeah and it's really a great idea because it's a widespread thing. You know people don't necessarily talk about it. I mean you have no idea from knowing a person, my experiences at least, what they're like sexually.

You can't even guess at that. That and money. You can try and borrow five dollars from someone you've known for 30 years and they won't give it to you. And it's a complete unknown. And I really like, this song is short, but I always thought it was a

great idea for a song and you know like I'd wish that done more but but I couldn't think of what more to do. Well let's hear it this is maybe I'm doing it wrong. Maybe I'm doing it wrong Just don't move me the way that I should Maybe I'm doing it wrong There ain't no to tell you But I don't think I'm getting what everyone's getting Maybe I'm doing it wrong Sometimes I'll throw off a good one At least I think it is, no I know it is I shouldn't be thinking at all I shouldn't be thinking at all

Maybe I'm doing it wrong Maybe I'm doing it wrong Just don't move me the way that I should Why did you write that song as a waltz? I don't know. It just came out that way. Almost every song I've written has had words and music sort of come at the same time but but No, usually the music comes a little first. So I probably was just clumping along like that and me

Yeah, it just I didn't do it for any Artistic reason though, I'd be happy to take credit for any sort of Viennese Reason that you'd like to give me. Well, thanks for the invitation. I have a reason I'd like to give you This song is about kind of frustration frustration in sexuality But the walls has such a nice little such an easy little that it's a nice contrast It does you know it Yeah, it's sort of in one. Yeah it could be, it might be also I loved a record called If You Got To Make A Fool Of Somebody.

I don't know which came first but I mean I wanted, maybe I wanted to write something like that. It's a, it's a, this is an instance I hear the listen to the audience, where sometimes, Harry Nelson once told me, I asked him, you know, it was a constant thing with him not performing, why he didn't perform. One time, it was mainly I think because he was frightened of it. I think, but I don't know. But he said once it was because he's worried it would hurt his work,

that the audience reaction would be like throw him off because he wouldn't know his good stuff and It's a very small thing that thing you can you can isolate it as a writer I mean their audience will react to some things like sometimes I'll throw off a good one Like I probably could have done better there, you know, but they laughed at it. I knew they liked it. So I left it alone. Now, could you ever imagine writing or singing a song in the opposite persona, the song in the voice of the great seducer, the great lover, baby, I'm so good? Only as a joke. I mean, why talk if that's the case? Only as a joke, I've probably done that.

I mean, almost certainly I've done it in some of my songs. You know, bragging. I can't think of one now, but it's an emotional girl to some slight strange degree. But I know there's better, oh, you can leave your hat on, that guy's sort of lame, you know. And yet they take it and treat it as straight, you know, sex. I'm glad you mentioned you can leave your hat on. That song was used in, what's the movie called? I'm just blanking out on the title.

Fulmanti. Fulmanti and 9 and a half weeks. Well Full Monty was such a big art house hit. Did that revive the song and bring you in surprising royalties? The other thing was even a bigger hit. Oh. 9 and a half weeks was such a big hit in Europe that it was a hit in almost worldwide. So I guess that it was revived both times, yeah. So you never know which old songs are going to come back at you. Yeah. And I did a TV show with Joe Cocker, and I did the thing, and let's see, what did I

do it in? Yeah, key of E. And I said, what key you do it in? And I figured maybe do it higher. I figured G, maybe a minor third. And he said, no, you did it in C. And I said, C? And up there, I could sing it in C. I could have sung it in C, and the band could have really rocked, you know?

And you could have heard it. And he had a hit with it up there, where I was mumbling around, boo, boo, take off your coat. You know, I was trying to get the character right. I just didn't have any sense of, uh... I mean, I wish I'd done it in C, to tell you the truth. So the song sounded different when he did it. Oh, yeah. I mean, being a sixth higher made it... uh... you know, took your way up there and you really belted it out.

Whereas... mine was more furtive. Furtivo. Right, yours was more the heavy breather. Yeah, but in a, in, in, sort of harmless, you know, I mean, I think some women's group were offended, but I meant the guy to be kind of laughed at, though as I get older I take it more seriously, you know. Well, since you've mentioned you can leave your hat on, you have your own recording of that on the new 4CD box set, so why don't we listen to that? Sure. Baby, take off your shoes, yeah I'll take your shoes

Baby take off your dress, yes, yes, yes You can leave your hat on, you can leave your hat on You can leave your hat on You can leave your hat on That's Randy Newman, recorded in 1972. He spoke with Terry Gross in 1998 on the occasion of the release of a four CD box set of his music. More after a break, this is Fresh Air. Darien, why have so many people fallen out of love with dating apps? That is such a question of the moment and I posed it to the CEO of Hinge for Love Week

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This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to Terry's 1998 interview with Randy Newman, who spoke to her after releasing a 4-CD box set of his music. Another overview of his long and impressive career, a new biography, has just been published. You come from a film music extended family. Your uncles were Lionel and Alfred Newman. And Amel Newman in the morning the forgotten for a newman and alfred and was head of music for twentieth century fox film scores include groups of wrath hunchback of notredame

captain from castillo about eve weathering heights did did having them in the family prevent you from being willing to sell your soul in order to make it in hollywood i'd never had a romantic view of hollywood and i'd i'd never had because you know that the actors were around by the time they were working on the picture and i would see that you know i'd hear them talk about

uh... this director that uh... actor actress and uh... there was never any glamour to it for me particularly. I don't know maybe you sell your soul a little when you do a movie anyway, movie music, but I don't feel that way. I think I've done some of my best work writing stuff that I never would have gotten to had I not been, had not the movie dictated that I write something like that like the natural, I mean I'm not gonna write heroic music like that I don't think or at least if I did it would be very

dissonant I think and I'm glad I got to it. Well I thought we can hear some of your new orchestral movie music and this is not from the box that this is from the cd of a bug's life when you did the score for the movie and i thought we play uh... victory uh... this is this is a really interesting piece i don't know if you remember them by name

is that a no no i don't remember them well i play some of this and then you could tell us a little bit about writing it and about how it's used in the actual movie? Sure. The The Music Randy Newman composed for the film A Bug's Life. Some of that really harkens back to classic adventure film scores. Yeah, but it's 20th century. I might not have known I could do that had it not called for it. It's a grasshopper flying through the air chasing an ant, but to me it's ow.

But it brought forth in me some sort of, like Bartok on a bad day. At least it's sort of, you know, like Bartok on a bad day. At least, you know, it's sort of decent 20th century music and technically difficult and unbelievably well played by, you know, there's one crummy horn entrance kind of, but I mean, that's all right. But those musicians had that music, maybe we did it in an hour and a half, that one thing. And that is really difficult for everybody. It must be pretty exciting for you to hear, played what you've only heard in your head

before. Yep, it's about the best thing I do. I like it so much that I'm willing to put up with a lot of downside to that job to do that like like I really liked hearing that just now Lino listening to me sing It's more important, you know songs I guess and songwriting but you know, I don't know how loud this is in the movie But it's not the main thing going on. I mean that With the ant gets away is the main thing. But I like that. It sounds really good to me.

Yeah, me too. Randy Newman, thank you very much for talking with us. Great pleasure, as always. Randy Newman speaking to Terry Gross in 1998. In addition to his solo albums and film scores, Randy Newman also has written a musical, Randy Newman's Faust. In 1993, he recorded a concept album of its music with an all-star cast, including Don Henley as Faust, James Taylor as God, Bonnie Raitt as the Devil's unfaithful girlfriend, and Newman himself as the devil. In the opening song, Glory Train,

Randy Newman's Satan, singing to God, provides his personal perspective on it all. You know it's a lie, it'll always be a lie The invention of an animal who knows he's going to die Some fools in the desert with nothing else to do So scared of the dark they didn't know if they were coming or going So they invented me and they invented you And other foods will keep it all going and growing Everybody, we're a figment of their imagination, a beautiful dream it is true. A figment of their imagination, me and you, and you knowing, me and you. That's Randy Newman singing as the devil in a song from his musical Faust. Robert Hilburn's new biography of Randy Newman called A Few Words in Defense of Our Country has just been published.

Coming up, Justin Chang reviews Conclave, a new movie thriller set in the Vatican. This is Fresh Air. you're glad you gave up on. Now I'm putting those soul-searching questions to guests like Jenny Slate, Bowen Yang, and Chris Pine. Follow Wildcard wherever you get your podcasts only from NPR. Adrian, do you feel that nip in the air, the smell of pumpkin spice wafting from your local coffee shop? Yeah, the overwhelming urge to suddenly watch holiday rom-coms. Yes, with all of these warm and fuzzies on the brain, it is the perfect time to explore the economic side of romance on the Indicator. We've got a week of episodes we're calling Love Week. Subscribe wherever you get podcasts.

Want the latest news from the campaign trail and beyond? Well, listen to the NPR Politics Podcast weekly roundup. Every Friday we tell you what happened and why it matters. Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast, wherever you listen. This is Fresh Air. In the new thriller Conclave, now playing in theaters, Ray Fiennes plays a cardinal in the Vatican who is tasked with overseeing the election of a new pope. The movie also features Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow, and Isabella Rossellini, and was directed by Edward Berger of the Oscar-winning All Quiet on the Western Front.

Our film critic, Justin Chang, has this review of Conclave. In describing Conclave, I can't improve on the words of a friend, the variety critic Guy Lodge, who suggested that this twisty piece of Pope fiction should have been titled Corpus Agatha Christi. That sums up the movie's paperback thriller appeal and its dramatic limitations. Adapted from Robert Harris' 2016 novel, Conclave isn't a whodunit exactly, although it does begin with the discovery of a body. The Pope has died unexpectedly in his quarters, and the Sacred College of Cardinals will now hold a conclave to determine his successor. The conclave will be overseen

by Cardinal Lawrence, played by an excellent Ralph Fiennes. Lawrence has his work cut out for him. He's having serious doubts about both his future in the Church and his personal faith, and his contentious and spiteful colleagues are not doing much to restore it. Before long the College will devolve into a cesspool of backbiting, infighting, and ruthless smear campaigning, perfectly timed for this nail-biting election season, in other words. Things start off civilly enough, as cardinals from all over the world descend on Rome for the conclave. In this scene, Lawrence greets his longtime friend and ally Cardinal

Bellini, who's favored to do well in the election. He's played by Stanley Tucci, expertly cast as a man who can be by turns caddy and serious-minded. Father Bellini! Aldo. Am I the last? Oh, quite. How are you? Oh, well, you know, fairly dreadful. Have you seen the papers? Mm-hmm.

Apparently it's already decided it's to be me. And I happen to agree with them. What if I don't want it? No sane man would want that. Have you seen the papers? Apparently it's already decided it's to be me. And I happen to agree with them. What if I don't want it? No sane man would want the paper scene. Some of our colleagues seem to want it. What if I know in my heart that I am not worthy? You are more worthy than any of us. Well, then tell your supporters not to vote for you, to pass the chalice.

And let it go to him? I could never live with myself." The hymn that Bellini can't stand is Cardinal Tedesco, played with delectable comic menace by the Italian actor Sergio Castellito. Tedesco is the kind of staunch traditionalist who still complains that the church got rid of the Latin Mass. The more liberal-minded Bellini and Lawrence fear that he will take the Church backward if he's elected. They want to see the Church make progress on gay rights, multi-faith unity, and women in leadership—issues that of course bedevil Pope Francis' reign in the present day. But for all these high-minded gestures at topicality, Conclave isn't really

about the challenges facing Catholicism today, nor is it about the clergy sexual abuse scandals that continue to make headlines, and which the movie acknowledges in passing. The director, Edward Berger, is in it mainly for the intricate puzzle-box plotting and the relentless political backstabbing. Berger previously directed All Quiet on the Western Front, and he stages Conclave as another kind of war movie, where words become weapons and even the cardinal's seating arrangements begin to resemble battle formations. One of these men will be the next head of the church, and the

options aren't terribly inspiring. John Lithgow gives a wily performance as one of the college's more popular and opportunistic members. Lucian M. Samati oozes ambition as a cardinal who's vying to become the first African pope in many centuries. Conclave is a noisy movie. The actors chew and chew the Vatican scenery, and Volker Bertelsman's score is as bombastic as an exorcism. I was grateful for the understated, yet commanding presence of the divine Isabella Rossellini, making the most of a thin roll as a nun who says little but sees everything. Equally welcome is the Mexican actor Carlos Diaz, as a humble cardinal who's led a dangerous ministry in Afghanistan. His motivations are among the movie's more intriguing mysteries.

Berger is clearly having fun ushering us into the shadowy cloistered world of the Vatican, complete with detailed recreation of the Sistine Chapel. And Conclave is undeniably engrossing to watch as it shuffles and reshuffles the narrative deck and serves up one juicy cardinal red herring after another. While the story may be a parlor trick, there's nothing phony about Ray Fiennes' performance as the movie's troubled conscience, a thoughtful man of God experiencing a genuine crisis of faith. Fiennes makes Lawrence's psychology intensely compelling, whether he's stepping in to reprimand a wayward colleague, or reluctantly considering the papacy himself.

Lawrence claims he doesn't have the spiritual fortitude to be pope. His attitude is basically, let this chalice pass from me. But Bellini calls him out. Every cardinal harbors the ambition to be pope, he says, and has even secretly chosen the papal name by which he would like to be known. Speaking of names, Lawrence's first name, we learn early on, is Thomas, which means that he is literally a doubting Thomas. Like everything in Conclave, it's clever and a little too on-the-nose.

Justin Chang is a film critic at The New Yorker. On Monday's show, an evangelical church that grew in reaction against the religious right. They shared an egalitarian vision, but became divided over some of the same issues dividing the country. We talk with Eliza Griswold about her new book. Her late father, Episcopal Bishop Frank Griswold, presided over the consecration of the first openly gay bishop. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Adam Staniszewski.

For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David B. and Cooley. Coming up on the indicator for Planet Money is Love Week, our week long series exploring the business and economics of romance. Ever wonder how cable channels crank out so many romcoms around Christmas time? Or wish you could get relationship advice from an economist. I'm listening. That's Love Week from The Indicator. Listen on your podcast app or smart speaker.

On the Cold Switch podcast, we think about race and identity all the time. On a recent episode, we tried to make sense of the devastating violence in Gaza by turning to James Baldwin, the writer and intellectual who thought a lot about what was happening in Israel during his lifetime. His words speak to the present in unexpected ways. Hear how they might help you think through it too on the Code Switch podcast only from NPR. Do you feel like there's more on your to-do list than you can accomplish?

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