Fresh Air - Spike Lee On Dynamic Duos & Reimagining Kurosawa

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Spike Lee's new film, Highest 2 Lowest, centers on a music mogul (Denzel Washington) who faces a moral dilemma when kidnappers mistakenly hold his friend's son ransom instead of his own: Will he risk it all to save a child who isn't his? The Oscar-winning filmmaker spoke with Tonya Mosley about his decades-long partnership with Denzel, an upcoming docuseries about Hurricane Katrina, and Do The Right Thing, 35+ years later.  Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Marley Matlin was the first deaf actor to win an Academy Award. She also helped pass a bill that requires captioning in movies and TV shows. So if you're one of the folks who uses captions, you know what to do. I see people with their laptops watching movies and with captions, I want to say, are you enjoying captions, by the way? Marley Matlin from Coda, the West Wing, and more on Bolzai from Maximumfund.org and NPR. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. With filmmaker Spike Lee, there are a few guarantees.

The story will have something to say, the images will enter the cultural conversation, and he's going to weave in New York any chance he gets. Over 40 years and more than 35 films, Spike Lee is captured defining moments in American life, the racial tensions on the hottest day of the year and do the right thing, the sweeping life of Malcolm X, and the devastation and aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and when the levees broke. He's given us dramas, comedies, and documentaries that take on power, history, race, and community. And along the way, he's introduced audiences to actors, we now can't imagine Hollywood without. Holly Berry, Rosie Perez, Samuel L. Jackson, and Denzel Washington. You're leaving out Gene Bunny, John Colise Sposito? The list is vast. We will be here forever. His latest, highest to lowest, flips Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic, high and low,

into a modern-day hip-hop drama. Denzel Washington plays a music mogul whose world unravels when his family is pulled into a ransom plot. Jeffrey Wright and ASAP Rocky round out the cast with Rocky stepping into a Spikely joint for the first time. And Spikely, welcome back to fresh air. When was the last time I was here?

I know it's been some years. It's been a minute. Look, I'm happy to be here. Let's go. Let's go. Let me tell audiences about this film. So in this film, Denzel Washington plays David King. He owns this record label, this very successful record label, and his son, along with the son of his friend and driver, Jeffrey Wright, is kidnapped for ransom.

And the kidnapper, played by Aesap Rocky, accidentally releases the wrong young man, leaving King and the decision to fork over $17.5 million. In France. In Swiss francs. In Swiss francs for a young man who is not. his son. Let's listen to a clip. King David, now ain't this son. Sorry? I got your full attention now, huh? You finally listening to me. Yeah, I'm listening.

Good. You know you got the wrong boy, right? Yeah, so I've heard, and I also learned you can never trust the help. But luckily for me, it was never about the boy. It was always about you. Well, I'm fair enough, but if it's about me, then you can't expect me to pay $17.5 million for somebody else's son if it's about me. But in his blood is going to be on your hands, then. How you want it?

No, man, come on now. This ain't no negotiation. That's a day of reckoning. You're not God no more than I am. All right, listen, God give you everything you want, right? No, God give you everything you need. So the question is, what are you need? How can I help?

You're not saying I'm God, but I could help. That was a scene from Spike Lee's newest film, highest to lowest. Spike, this film wrestles with a couple of different things. themes, but there's this main question that is being asked, what would you do to save your own child? What would you do to save the child of someone you love? And you've always taken on subjects that kind of move with time, like you're asking a moral question in your work. What was it in particular about this story, reimagining this story that you felt like was so important to tell right now? Well, I'm glad to use two words reimagining, I'd say, reinterpretation,

because I'm running away from the word remake. But Kurosawa's film, the great Kira Kurosawa, who made this film post-war Japan, 1963, is from a book by a writer Ed McBain. And the strength of this film, the strength of the book and Kurosawa's film, it really deals with morality. And when you have an actor,

man, in the Japanese version, a Tishman, one of great, great actors. And then with Denzel, who's right there, great actors, when they're going through trials or tribulations, the audience becomes engaged and they're with that person, every step it away. Consequently, when they see this film, the ones we've seen already, they're with Denzel's character, David King, and they ask themselves, what would they do? Right, right. What would they do in the position that they see on screen that the great magnificent Denzel Washington is in? And it takes star quality. Here's the thing.

The reason why people are stars because they have their talent and the audience is engaged. Yeah. And from the jump, the audience has been engaged with Mr. Denzel Washington. And I've been blessed with five of those dynamic duos. Right. You guys are like Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro. Or you could say St. Louisville and Al Pacino. You could say Francis Ford with Randall and Godfather and Apocryp's now.

So throughout history, you've had these pairings. There's something a little disconcerting, I'll say, about seeing Denzel and this character. He portrays it so well. I've seen the film twice, and you know, the first time, yeah. The first time I was like, man, he's so, he's like disheveled a little bit. He's not like a man he's at the top, but he doesn't appear at the top. The second time I felt like that's on purpose. Like there's something that's being seen in the way that he's moving that perhaps he's out of step with this moment. Well, I think that's a great observation. I mean, he's not at the top. anymore his label record label stack of hits is not putting out the hits anymore so he's in a very voluble part and and also when you're at the top and that point comes you're not the top anymore that's that's earth shaking in the original film in kurosawa's film uh the protagonist is a shoe executive right and yours a music mogul why did you choose music It's an interesting.

Well, that was, the script went through Hollywood for many years. And so when it ended up in Denzel's hands, that change hadn't already been made. So I got a call, Denzel says, Spike, you got this script. You want to rest? Yeah, Senate FedEx. And before I even hung up the phone, I knew I wanted to do the film, not even known, having read what the script was and was about. Denzel didn't say, he didn't describe you, just say, I got a script.

I want you to read it. And that's where it happened. It's interesting that that was already the way the script was written when it got to you. And, of course, immediately you're like, yes. Music is such an integral part of your work. It's interwoven into your storytelling. It's part of the filmmaking. Yeah, it's part of the filmmaking.

There's this piece of music, though, right off the top. It's you open with the 1943 Rogers and Hammerstein. Oh, what a beautiful morning from Oklahoma. Right. But the rest of the film is like. soul in hip hop. How did that, is there a story behind you? Well, I love all types of music. And I remember my mother was a cinema. My father hated movies, but my mother is a cinema file. I'm the oldest, so they both have passed. But

she was the one that I was my mother's movie date because my father hated Hollywood. So she introduced me a whole lot of films. Of course, at the time, I didn't want, I mean, I want to run it It was a while broken can't run up and down the streets and play stickball and stoop ball stuff. She says, you know, I'm taking your little rusty butt. We're going through the movie, so I don't care what you say. And here's the thing, though, every time I don't want to go, I don't want to go, and then we'll come out there, I said, Mommy, that was good. So it's just an example of kids don't know.

and when parents take the time and introduce their stuff that children who might go kicking and screaming but when they come out of the theater or the movie theater or the museum, whatever, you know,

you can say lives have been changed and I know that's happened to me. Do you remember one of the movies your mom took you too that really stuck with you? All right. This is a famous one. I've said this before. So anybody in home who's seen her this before Excuse me.

My mother loved Sean Connery's James Bond, double seven. And my mother, she would always want to go to the opening weekend of these films. And the theater was packed. And, you know, those early James Bond films, explosions, gunplay, just crazy stuff. And there was a lull in the film.

You have to have to have. You can't do that the whole length of the film. We've got to get the audience of breath, you know, just some quiet, you know. And the theater is completely quiet. I said to my mother, Mommy, why is that lady, why is her name Pussy Galore? The whole thing I heard that. My mother grow me by the neck and said, don't you say another thing. What I do?

What I do? True story. But that film came out in 63s. I was born 50s. I was six years old. Right. You're like, what's this? I don't know, but it just sounded like a funny name to me.

And you still remember it to this day. Hey, I was not the only one that even adults probably says about that name of that character. Ooh, my mother was embarrassed. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Spike Lee. His latest film, highest to lowest, is a reimagining of Akira, who was a cyberer, Zawa's 1963 classic high and low, set in the world of American hip-hop and global fame. We'll continue our conversation after short break.

This is fresh air. This message comes from Wise, the app for using money around the globe. When you manage your money with Wise, you'll always get the mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Join millions of customers and visit Wise.com. T's and Cs apply. Today, we're talking to Spike Lee, the director, writer, and producer whose more than 35 films include Do the Right Thing, Malcolm X, Black Klansman, and When the Leveys Broke. His latest movie, Highest to Lowest, stars Denzel Washington as a music mogul whose life unravels when his family is targeted in a ransom plot. The film also stars Asap Rocky.

Denzel's character has lost his ear. Really? Like, he's become so far away from that hungry, artistic guy he was at the beginning of his life, his career. There's a great scene where his wife played by Lofesh Adaird says that, you know, she doesn't see the joy anymore. Right. And it's something that I've heard happen often. I mean, sometimes I can feel it. You get to midlife and you feel like this thing that you're so passionate about, there are ebbs and flows. Ebbs and flows. Have you ever been there? No You've not You've always had a passion

Film? Oh, that's Look, I can't talk for anybody else But for me I've never had Fell out of love with cinema Because I tell this to my students I'm a tenure professor of film

NYU graduate film school Ernest Dick is a great camera shot all my films Up the Malcolm X Ang Lee was my classmate Jim Drama was two years ahead of us So my love has always been there Now there's a business side That's different

But just talking about Making films And I true believe I was put here To be a storyteller So I'll never You know you get the BS But push that aside

It's sometimes It's gonna be a big pile Right Like how do you not allow yourself To be consumed By all of that stuff You just have to deal with To get to the thing you love so much

Because when you get to the thing, after going on a lot of stuff, you're getting through the thing you love. And to break it down even a little more for my sister in the audience, at first day of class, I tell my students that I'm lucky. And if you could make a living, doing what you love, you won. There's this explosive, propulsive scene in the film in highest to lowest. It's like the apex part of it. It happens during the Puerto Rican Day parade. And I want to talk a little bit about it.

Oh, you're leaving something out. Who are the fans on the number four train and where they're going? Baseball. And they're New York Yankee fans. Right. And who are the Yankees playing that day in Yankee Stadium? Boston. They hated Red Sox.

Right, right. We got it. We can't like leave that out. There's so many. I mean, that whole scene, there's so much there. You know what's that? called really, a set piece. Say more. What does that mean?

A set of a scene that stands out. Yes. Yeah, that's a set piece. But also, the set piece, there's one like that in the original, too, on the bullet trains in Tokyo Japan. So both scenes take place where the ransom

is dumped to be picked up by the kidnapper. I was wondering what came first. Was it the music and the parade? Was it the scene in the train? Was it because it's really like a story about New York set inside of a film? Well, it comes

from the original. I mean, that's where inspiration comes from. But I knew I cannot do a reinterpretation of that but not even use this scene, a famous scene from that film. And the thing that was

important that the character played by Ace of Rocky, I don't want to be, people think that it's just a young thug rapper is You know, you know, young thug is smart. Even though the intentions are off the mark, but I also don't want to play the NYPD as dopes as stupid. So I had to come up with this scenario where it would be very complicated for NYPD to stop this thing happening.

Right. So, all the night, I thought about having this drop, ransom drop, happened on a Sunday afternoon Yankee Stadium, the Red Sox in town. And also, on top of that, the Puerto Rican Day Parade is always on a Sunday. So have both of those on a Sunday. And then I went on to my brother Eddie Palmieri, who recently, he passed away three days, three or four days. before the premiere in New York and Brooklyn. Did he ever have a chance to see it?

Did he see himself in it? No. And filming us, you know, we were very respectful. And it was not done to playback. We did seven or eight takes. I don't remember exactly, and each time was live. The Eddie Palmeri's house orchestra playing live. And when you see the film, you can see the Julian Eddie's face as he's performing

and doing a thing that he was born to be on Earth, you know, to perform and sing and represent. the great people, Puerto Rico. It's such a moving scene, too. Also, and knowing and understanding that he just passed away, we just lost him. One of the Giants. In general, one of the Giants.

And it was very emotional at the premiere in New York in Brooklyn. We had Eddie II. And there's many members of the family were there, too. He spoke to the audience before began the film. Oh, that's beautiful. I want to stay on highest to lowest because I wanted to tour this penthouse apartment that Danzell, his wife. That's a real building. It's a real building.

And the art and the artifacts. Tell me the story about that. Are those your pieces? A lot of them are. But copies were made because stuff gets messed up on a film. So I can not have somebody accidentally put a hole in a bosky out. We weren't. again, Diwali.

I've heard that before. A rigid Avedon porch of Lena Horn, you know. So those are ports, and then we finished those, those copies were destroyed. Okay, so like copies of copies. But just to describe for the audience, I mean, Baskiats on the wall. It's a shortcut. It's a shortcut to show that this is a fluent black family. Yeah.

You know, and the money, first you see where they live for open credits, but when we go inside their penthouse, you see there's millions of dollars on the wall. Of black art in particular. A lot of that art is owned by my wife and Iitania. When did you start collecting art? Well, I started collecting comic books, baseball cards, basketball cards.

So the art thing came much later when I had some money. But here's the thing. I'm under the age where our mothers throughout our comic books, our baseball card, which are worth thousands and thousands. Today, right? We didn't know. Here's the thing, though, especially in Brooklyn. We're flipping cards.

We're putting cards on our bikes on the spokes so you can hear the noise. No one knew. Yes. No one knew that they would be worth something. Millions of dollars. Right? You could have funded your first. She's got a head.

with all of those, which cost $175,000, which was, their cars worth more than that. Right. I follow this young woman on TikTok, and she talks a lot about art, and I think she's an art history major, and she's, like, out in the world now just starting out. And I was like, she seems familiar. I don't know. And then one day I happened across one of her videos, and it's your daughter. So she grew up, yeah. She grew up around all this, right?

Yeah, she's grown, so is my son Jackson, and then they're both in the arts. My daughter's a great photographer. My son Jackson, you know, he works for me. He's like the merchandise, you know, getting deals done, so they're both, you know, thriving. They're thriving. But art, obviously. It's the bedrock. It's the bedrock.

They grew up, you know, with their, my wife, Tanya's a producer, too. In fact, the film she produced was the first place I saw, except Rocky, in that film. Wait, that was her film, his first film, what is it called? The title of the film that Time produced, dope, was dope. That's why I first saw Rocky in front of the camera. and not a music view and a film Rocky's performance

is amazing and last night the screening here in L.A. I gave him a big hug and I said look I love you you're great

but the next film you can't play a rapper and you cannot just be corn into doing this role again you have immense talent so please don't

play another rapper right after this right you see more you see depth there's a lot of comparisons people give to him

and Denzel because of the way they look The first I saw checking it out five years ago I was saying this guy looks like. Danzel's son. Yeah. And that was even before, you know,

the whole thing, in the high and low happening. Highest the lowest happening. Yeah. I mean, the community said that. I don't want him to be put in the corner this early in his career. Yeah.

I mean, he's leading men. Let's take a short break. My guest today is Spike Lee. We're talking about his new film, highest to lowest. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is fresh air. These days, there's so much news. It can be hard to keep up with what it all means for you, your family, and your community. The Consider This podcast from NPR features our award-winning journalism. Six days a week, we bring you a deep dive on a news story and provide the context and analysis that helps you make sense of the news. We get behind the headlines. We get to the truth. Listen to the Consider This Podcast from NPR. I'm actually just thinking about you back when you first came on the scene. I mean, you came like a lightning bolt.

You talk about campaigning for Malcolm X, putting that nicely. I remember the media really portraying you talking to you a lot about being angry. And I had this debate with my husband about it because I was like, I actually really loved it. I felt like, you know, as a young person being anti-establishment. And what your husband said? Well, he said, well, I never thought he was angry. I just thought he was confident and knew what he wanted and had a point of view. Right.

But what was your assessment? You were kind of tough on the media those early days. Well, they were tough on me, you know, this belligerent, young rabble-rouser. I mean, when do the right thing came out, you know, as portrayers are racist, and Mookie through the garbage can through the South's tapest window and Jungle Fever I said I was anti-Semitic because of how they felt

the portrayal the two Jewish owners of the club played by the Titoro brothers Nick and John so I don't combat that type of

criticism as much I used to of course as it died down but when do the right thing premiered in Cannes in 1989 American journals was saying that this film was going to cause riots. It's black people rioting in the summertime.

And they were pleading to Universal Pictures. If you're going to release the film, don't release the summertime. Because they thought that would be where we'd be all riled up or something. It's kind of crazy looking back on that. Like, a film's not going to do that. But if you look, that film really had the crystal ball. You look at the killing, the murder of Ray Rahim. about the NYPD and the chokehold.

We were talking about global warming, a lot of things in that film. You know, we talked about came to life in later years. I mean, the sociopolitical message, it almost mirrored to a T-2020. That's when everyone was talking about it, like Radio Rahim became a mean. And I wrote that script in 88. We shot in 89. And, you know, look, I'm not happy. I'm not bragging upon that, but we, I'm not happy that the stuff you had in the film ended up happening in real life. Yeah.

But it did. The thing about it is, it seems like we didn't have the, we weren't there yet in the 80s and 90s to have a true conversation about it. Came back up in 2020, allowed us to tap into it a little bit. I know what you're saying, sis, but it's sad that people have to die. for this to happen. Yeah. Families were destroyed because of this. They really weaponized the word woke.

And as we sit here in L.A., you know, they got the feds now trying to take over D.C., formerly known as Chalka City. We live, you know, the world now is bananas. Let's talk a little bit about your documentary work, because you've done quite a few of them. Academy Award nominated four little girls about the 63 Birmingham church bombing,

bad 25, which I forgot about, but bad 25 about Michael Jackson's bad album. And that's not even a full list. Off the wall. I've heard many storytellers say, especially documentaries, like they take on work that they can't get out of their heads. And I wanted to know what's your rubric for finding,

the documentaries, stories that you want to tell? For me, I don't make a distinction between feature films and documentaries. For me, it's storytelling. And one of the most significant films that ever made was Four Little Girls, which is about the 19 September, 1963, bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama. and the goal was to talk to the parents, the relatives, the teachers, the teachers, talk about these four beautiful young black girls who were murdered,

were murdered by multiple sticks of dynamite, and who these beautiful young girls might have been And they were allowed to live. These members of the KKK stuck dynamite in a place of worship, a church, and murdered four beautiful young black girls who weren't allowed to live. Who knows what they might have been. Mothers, like grandchildren with their life, you know, snuffed out with their life. act of hate. Jake Hoover was not a friend of black folk,

was not a friend of Dr. King or the civil rights movement. That week, they know who did it. It was one of the people. The guy's nickname was Donnie Mike Bob. And we wanted this film to be seen. I did it at HBO. We wanted this film to be eligible

for the best feature length documentary. And so in order to do that, you have a week-long run, theatrical run. And a couple days before that, I got a call by the FBI. I don't know why they're calling me. They said they would like to see a print of the film.

And a week later, they reopened the case. Wow. And it sent to those murderers to a prison. They ain't been walking around free since September 960. Jacob Hoover, they knew who did it. That's pretty powerful, Spike. So I can't do anything to top that. No, that's pretty.

And it's not a thing I talk about a lot, but it did happen. It's one of your most powerful pieces of work. I agree. You lost an Academy Award you were, like, nominated for it, but you didn't win. We did a funny story. Yeah. So we got nominated, and I told HPA, we got to bring the parents to L.A. So we did not win.

And so at that time, Denzel co-owned a restaurant. So I was supposed to be the party. It was a party. and no one was upset about not winning because their night was made they got a hug and a kiss on the cheek from Denzo Washington

for them that was the Oscar that was the Oscar Denzel hugged him and gave him a kiss on the cheek and they got their Oscar another story that you told was the story of Hurricane Katrina

and we're now coming up on the anniversary I know that you all yeah Let me answer a question. My sister, so what, you've got to help me here. What word can I say instead of anniversary? Right. And commemoration doesn't work. It is like, what is the word that speaks to something?

I'll give you my email. So when you get that word. Right, you find it. Because I think it's coming up August 29th, right? It is, yeah. Please give me that word because I refuse to say anniversary. Right. To me, that's birthdays, weddings.

or what, but what happened... Happened 20 years ago. I don't want to... Yep. I help me. I can't say anniversary anymore. I won't say anniversary. So you just say it's been 20 years, yeah.

Thank you. Boom. It's been 20 years. There's another documentary, Katrina, come hell or high water, that you're associated with. Are you a producer-dire producer? And there's three parts. I did the final episode of the three.

And also, Ryan Coogler has one, too. So a big moment coming up. What is it about this particular story? You've already done it with one. What is it that we need to revisit, that we need to sit with and understand about it in this second go-round? Americans have short memories. So that's why I came a part of this revisiting of it.

And here's another thing that. By going back 20 years and then looking at New Orleans today, They've lost a large part of the black population. Black folks have gone on and thrived in Houston, Atlanta, Georgia, Charlotte and North Carolina. It's a good argument to say that New Orleans has not. To show us what it is now, what's been lost. I think the people are still dealing with that. 20 years later.

Right. as you mentioned your mom was deep into movies your dad was a jazz musician you grew up like just surrounded by music a creative household creative household and they often say we like love and we are connected to the music that was a coming of age for us like we are often perpetually stuck in it but as a creative like how how do you view the moving times the music that we're hearing today without sounding like a fuddy dutty like can you see you see you that value. And people complaining about rock and roll back in the day. So I'm not necessarily a purist that, like my father was. I mean, anything that was played with electricity. You know, he was not, he was not with that. He always was tone as is.

Like literally? Like he didn't even like to play records? My father, Bill Lee, was the top folk bassist working. He was on the first Simon and Garfunkel album, the first Gordon-Left album, like play with Judy Collins. I mean, a whole bunch of people. He's on a Bob Dylan album. And when Bob Dylan went electric, everybody went electric.

And my father used to play Fender Bass. He called it tone as is. I'm not going to do anything where electricity is used to amplify the sound and make it louder. Wow. And my mother had to go to work. Wow. If you saw Crooklyn, that's real life, that actually happened. That's the Lee family.

Yeah. And my mother, I mean, but from my father, was working, and she was going to Blumenthal's and Lord and Taylor, you know, every week. But my father said, I'm not doing that. I'm not playing electric base. My mother had to work, you know, and I saw,

I was feeling, and I was the eldest of five, I was feeling a certain way about my father because my mother was working and had to cook and clean and including myself, my siblings, we were crazy. I mean, we would, when Rels is new, that them

bad leaves are coming over. We were like, more. I hope they don't eat up all of food and tear a house up. That was a real possibility, huh? Oh, it happened. Yeah. It happened. So, I felt the way about my father.

But then I understood that he's a purest, and my mother supported and loved him. And so she had to work, cook and clean, you know, she's going to do that. And hopefully, and God willing, you know, my father get a break.

And the world will see the great musician he was. And later on, My mother died. He scored my films, my student films, NYU grew out of film school, and then she used to have it, Mo Bella Blues, do the right thing, and the jungle fever.

You know, Spike, this is a real treat for me to talk to you. No, the treat is my, it's mutual, my sister. Oh, well, I'm happy about that. I think your films are part of, like, my self-conception, my understanding of who I am and the role that I play in this world. What's the first film you saw? Why? So you did have it?

No, because I was too young for that, but I saw that later. But the one that really sits with me the most is Malcolm X. And I'll tell you why, because I grew up in Detroit. De Trois. I grew up in Desoit. Detroit Public Schools, the day that your film came out, they allowed kids to leave school to go see it. And a teacher of mine had us all get on a bus, and we arrived. You got on the bus?

We all got on the bus together. I made a mood, too. And we arrived at the theater, and there were lots of other schools there. And there's this moment at the end of the film that I want to play. It is where there are kids in classrooms in the United States, and then on the continent of Africa. Suedo. Yes. On May 19th, that they designate Malcolm X Day.

Right. And each student stands up and says, I. and Malcolm X. Let's listen to it. May 19th, we celebrate Malcolm X's birthday because he was a great, great Afro-American. And Malcolm X is you, all of you. And you are Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. As Brother Malcolm served, we declare our right on this earth to be a man, to be a human being, to be given the rights of a human being, to be respected as a human being in this society.

On this earth, in this day, which we intended to bring into existence. By any mean, that was a clip from Spike Lee's 1992 film, right, Malcolm X. It makes me emotional to hear it today, but I'll tell you that day I saw it in the theater. when that by any means necessary everybody stood up in the theater they were yelling, they were screaming, they were doing the fist up the black power of fist

what grade was this must say? Ninth grade. Ninth grade. So first year high school. Let me tell you the story. I've seen a lot of people, a lot of great people, but to be in a room

and direct in the great Nelson Mandela for the end of the movie And the reason why I chose that Because I read that Mr. Mandela Who was in prison But for

27 years, I think Yes On Robin Island He said one of the things That kept him going Was the autobiography of Malcolm X I was told Alex Haley

And we're going over the script Which is a quote By Malcolm X And he said Spike Oh no, he said Mr. Lee I cannot say by any means necessary

But I was I had First of all I had the footage I'm saying this I know I could put that in there But it wasn't until Later on I understood that Because he was going to run

To be president in South Africa Mandela yeah And Afrikanas would use that Against him By means necessary I mean we're going to kill you white folks So he was very smart I didn't protest

I said It's okay and also one of those kids that says Malcolm X is John David Washington Denzel's son He's a young... I have to go back and look at it again Later on, start in my film Black Klansmen Yes

How did that idea come about to have the kids stand up And declare that classroom scene? This homage to Spartacus, but also It worked also the show that we could do it then and then the thing is that sequence where kids stand up in the school starts Soweto

but then it goes to Harlem so I wanted to show the bond between African Americans and our brothers and sisters who are still and it's a powerful show that we are diaspora and also

apartheid was still in place going back though to that time period you were sort of like responding to the media, you're responding to them responding to your work and the thoughts that this work would spark something within Black America. But something shifted. There'll be uprising. Right. And so there was a response that you were given to the media during that time that I just really remember feeling so strong. And then something happened with you. Then you became like the person we see today, like so jovial and so open. Well, I was like that from the beginning.

Well, you're talking about the way I was portrayed, which was not who I was. But I cannot stand silent and say that, I mean, for example, that this film was caused black folks to riot. I'm talking specifically about the right thing. And that film got two nominations. Deniello for Sal and also Denzel Washington for Glory. Well, I saw Glory.

and that scene was getting ripped and that lone tear went down his eye I thought myself, Danny, you ain't winning. This is not going to happen. And then also, I mean, I got nominated for a screenplay.

The film that won that year was Drive's Daisy so that I could tell you more than enough about the climate than also for people who vote. who were the people who were members of the Academy Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Did you ever feel that way, though, like you were entitled to awards that you did not get, that you earned awards that you did not get, and where do you sit on it? Well, I think that, I mean, there's footage of me being not happy.

The last time was with a black classman. Which wasn't that long ago. I mean, that's... What's the film? Green Book, Green Book. Oh, okay, so it won. And so I said, man, every time someone is driving somebody, I'm going to lose. Drive his Daisy and Green Book.

And a funny thing, you know, I was very upset. And I jumped down on my men's footage of this at the Academy. That night, I jumped down on my seat, oh, sweet person. My wife trying to have me sit down. I'm like, get off me. And you sit down. Then my mom, Tanya, my wife, sit, my wife, sit. son out there to get me. And so I calmed down.

If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Spike Lee. We'll be right back after a short break. This is fresh air. It's never been a secret about the filmmakers who have inspired you over the years. I remember a few years ago, you had an exhibit at the Academy Museum and like all the folks were there, all of your heroes. Yeah, all of your giants. For you, though, a few years ago, she's got to have it, was remade. Not remade. Reimagined. That's the same going to happen with this film.

People think, highest law is not a remake of high and low. Right. It was reinterpretation. Yes. That interpretation was an interpretation for the 20s, you know, the 2020s now. Your She's Got to Have It was so subversive

because it was like, 1986. 1986 about sexual liberation, a young woman who has the freedom to choose. I just wonder, like, Like, as you move through time and you're experiencing your own work, other folks reimagining your story for a new time. Like, it's kind of like the beauty of storytelling. But let me tell you this, though.

It was only when I got into NYU graded at film school three-year program that I really got introduced to world cinema. And the first Kurosawa film that I saw the wasn't a samurai film was Rashomon's a film about a murder and a rape and how these different characters. each tell their version of the story. And that premise I used for she's going to have it. So this is not the first thing. I'm getting down with my brother, Kurosau. I got to meet, too. When did you meet him?

It was when he was here in the States, and at that time, Scorsese and Spielberg and Francis Ford were promoting. They produced the film. I forgot the name of the film. And one of my prized possessions, it was in the show, Brooklyn Museum is a beautiful portrait that he signed for me.

He did his autographs with a paintbrush. Oh, he'd have. So it's white ink and gives me a beautiful, people, you go to my Instagram, official Spike Lee, you'll see this portrait of him, that Curacao assigned me with a paintbrush for white paint. What a moment. And what a prize possession. Yes. Did he know and understand the impact that he had on you?

through your films. Did you guys say to talk about it? Yeah, I told him. You told them about it. Yeah. A lot of times when you meet these giants and, you know, after a while you're going for an hour like Spike, all right, we get you.

I'm glad I influenced your work, but I don't have an hour right here for you to tell me that. Yeah, right, right. Spike Lee, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been a pleasure. Yes. Spike Lee's new film, highest to lowest, is now playing in theaters. It will be available. to stream on Apple TV Plus starting September 5th.

Tomorrow in fresh air, journalist Ruth Marcus joins us to talk about President Trump's combative attorney general, Pam Bondi. In her latest piece for The New Yorker, Marcus describes how Bondi has upended the Justice Department, reversing policies and firing staff in what she calls the most convulsive transition of power since Watergate. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of

our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page at This is Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenado, Lauren Crenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Yacundi, Anna Bauman, and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shurach directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley. It's that time of gear again. Planet Money Summer School is back. This semester,

with help from professors, policy experts, and yes, even a Nobel laureate, or dive into how government and the economy mixed and asking the big questions like what role should government play in our economy? Does government intervention help or hurt and how big should the government be? That's on Planet Money Summer School from NPR, wherever you get your podcasts.