Fresh Air - Tim Robbins Believes In The Power Of Theater

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

The Oscar-winning actor/director has a new play, “Topsy Turvy,” about a chorus that loses its ability to sing together after COVID isolation."Things that I had held sacred or had held as truths were challenged," Robbins says of the pandemic. He talks with Tonya Mosley about ‘Shawshank Redemption,’ ‘Dead Man Walking,’ and how working with Robert Altman changed the trajectory of his career. Also, David Bianculli reviews the new Netflix miniseries, ‘Death by Lightning.’Follow Fresh Air on instagram @nprfreshair, and subscribe to our weekly newsletter for gems from the Fresh Air archive, staff recommendations, and a peek behind the scenes. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy, working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right. Learn more at RWJF.org. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And my guest today is Tim Robbins, Academy Award-winning actor, director, and founder of the actors' gang. A theater company he started in Los Angeles back in 1981 with a group of fellow UCLA students. We sat down in October in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, after a live performance of his new play, Topsy Turvey, at the Kohler Art Center. Sheboygan itself is a small lakeside city right

next to Kohler, a place with a rich art scene. The performance was part of the city's first film festival, which wrapped with a 30th anniversary screening of Dead Man Walking, the second film Robbins directed. Topsie Turvey is about a chorus that's lost its ability to sing together after the pandemic's long isolation, a metaphor that hits uncomfortably close to home for many. And in a way, it connects to what Robbins has explored for more than 40 years, impossible reconciliations between people with opposing beliefs, between guilt and redemption, between isolation and connection. From the Shawshank Redemption to Bob, Rob Roberts, to his prison theater work with the actors gang, he circles around one question.

How do we find harmony when we've forgotten how to listen? Robbins and I talked about why he's taking an experimental play on the road instead of making another prestige TV show. And I asked him about how the COVID lockdown and the isolation that followed affected him. Here's our conversation. Well, in many ways, the lockdown was illuminating to me. Things that I had held sacred or had held as truths were challenged during that time. And what it made me do was it made me question myself and question what my beliefs are. And I think that's a very healthy thing.

As a writer, I need to do that all the time. As an actor, I have to do that. So drama is about finding the complexities and the conflicts that we all have within ourselves. I think that's the way to approach these discussions about society at large. When you're dealing with them in a play or in a movie, you have to give respect to the other side. So for your writing process, how does the idea of the chorus, because Topsie Turvey, they're a chorus, this collective voice, help us think about the division. What was it about that particular way of being able to tell the story that you felt was a way to be able to get at that division? So just a reminder that in Greek theater, which was kind of the start of what we think of,

as Western Theater. The purpose of these plays that they did, both comedies and dramas, were to involve the citizenry in a dialogue with the gods. So the citizenry in those plays were represented by the chorus. And the chorus would have a big dilemma. And the dilemma usually had something to do with something that had happened recently in Athens or in Greece. And what we were seeing on stage was a way for the society to look at what had just happened and be able to explore that, ask questions about it, and see the story told through the dialogue between the chorus and the gods. And I felt the subject matter of those plays, recent wars that had taken a lot of lives, plagues. different conflicts within the societies, I felt that this was such a unique and extraordinary time that we were living in, that it was up at that level of Greek tragedy and Greek comedy.

The degree to which this whole world locked down, this has never happened in human history before. The coordinated locking down of societies throughout the world, you know, I was, you know, as seeing this develop, I was like, there's got to be one country that just says, ah, we're not doing this. And I just was blown away, that it had this kind of coordinated unanimity, and that scared me a little bit. And I was like, well, what is this really about? What is this about? And so those questions led me to ask those questions in the play, using the chorus as a means to figure out these people who lovely singing together

at the beginning of the play, they sound beautiful, and then they are told they have to separate. And so how does a chorus harmonize when they are kept from each other. I'm just curious, Tim, I mean, you're an Oscar winner. You can do anything. You could be in movies. You've done prestige television.

What is it about playing in 100-seat theaters and devoting your time to it? What do you think it is about the theater to be able to articulate the story that you're telling in Topsy-Turvy that can't really be told anywhere else? I have complete freedom. And I've always, from the very start, held that to be the most important thing. We started the actors gang out of UCLA in 1982. And when you say we?

I'm talking about eight or nine young punk rock infused actors. that just wanted to make some noise and have fun and tell stories. And we did this play called Ubuwa, Ubu the King. This was the first play we did, and we did it in this dark street in Hollywood at midnight

on Fridays and Saturdays. And it was a big success, and it told us that we have this great opportunity, and we started doing other plays. But then I started, right around the same time, I started getting work. And I had financed Ubu the King on my salary from delivering pizzas in Beverly Hills. If you're going to deliver pizzas by the way, that's the place. That's the place. Good tips. Good tips. And so

then I started working and I realized, oh, well, I can, I can, I can. I can. and fund the next play with this one paycheck, right? And so I started this kind of dance, and my agents hated it because they're trying to build momentum, and I would say to them, well, I'm happy to work through this time, but then I'm going to do a play. And they're like, oh, Broadway?

I'm like, no, no, I've got this theater company, and we're going to do this thing. So I need, like, three months free, four months free. And I don't want to go out in any auditions. And so they were like, you're crazy. That's stupid. And I was like, well, I'm sorry, that's what I'm doing. And so this, going back and forth in the first five, six years of my career was absolutely

essential for my survival. And what happened was my perspective was one of use that great gift that you're getting from working in TV episodes. and sitcoms and make art with that. So this continued for the past 43 years. Let's go back to a young Tim Robbins. Is it true that you started acting with a street theater group at 12? Yeah.

First off, how does a 12-year-old find a live theater group on the street? Like, how did that happen? So my sister Adele, who was in the play, so she was working as a stage manager at this place called The Theater for the New City. And they were doing weird theater. You know, this is like late 60s, early 70s, Greenwich Village. You know, there were plays with nude people in them.

And so I got kind of interested in what she was doing. Of course, you did. And so Crystal Field, who ran that theater company and still runs it to this day, invited me to be in a play called Undercover Cop. And I was to play a gang member. And it was, you know, this kind of satire about what was going on in New York City at the time. And I found myself acting on the streets of New York. And what that meant was that they would pack a truck with four, four by eight platforms,

raised up about two feet, which was the stage, a couple iron bars that held a backdrop, and a truck that had all the costumes in it. So we would go to a different neighborhood every Saturday and Sunday in the month of August and set up our stage, set up an audience area, do a little parade in the neighborhood to get more audience, and then do this play for 45 minutes to an hour. What was the reception like? Do you remember how people received you? Well, you have to understand.

Most of these people are seeing theater for the very first time. We're not going to wealthy neighborhoods. We're going to, you know, all kinds of neighborhoods in New York. And the reception was always great. what one thing those audiences didn't have was the filter that you learn when you go to theater a lot so there was an awful lot of talking back call and response was it kind of like a call in response though yeah which is great and and by the way you learn very quickly that that's a reality you have to deal with

not only that reality you have to deal with mama up four flights yelling for her kids or someone yelling or some guy that's drugged out who's just wandering onto the stage all of a sudden and he's there and he's like oh what's he doing? We had one scene where George Beteniof this actor plays this guy named Dogfine

and he's like he's a thief and he grabs one of the characters on stage's purse and runs away right and we had three guys chasing him he's running faster than I've ever seen him run he comes backstage and we're all like, no, no, it's just the play, it's just the play. They were ready to kick his ass.

It was so funny. Those were some really good lessons for you as an actor, as a performer. Yes. And I didn't learn until much later how rooted the street theater of that theater for the New City was in the Comedéde de Del Arte, which is what that was. Back in the 15th and 16th century, it was basically street theater. They wouldn't do Comedie Del Arte plays in fancy theaters.

They would do them in a public square. And they were itinerant companies. They would do their show. They'd pack up and they'd go to the next town. And so I've done a lot of exploration into that whole world of Comedia de laarte since and have come to understand how vital an art firm it was because they were telling stories that were absolutely relevant

to the world around them at the time. I know this about theater. I know that as a child, when I saw something transformative, something that blew my mind, I can still remember those plays. Though they're still with me. That's the power that theater has.

It can actually transform a consciousness. It can change an opinion. It can illuminate a truth that in an immediate way, not in a manipulative way because film can be very manipulative and it's how long does it last is it candy or is it a substantial meal

and you know for example with Dead Man Walking there was a when we were in the final stages of editing that movie there was a whole bunch of people that were saying Tim you got them in your palm of your hand why do you show the

the murder again during the execution. At the end of the film, right. Why are you doing that? And my response was because it's true, because it's what happened. And why, if I, I don't want them in the palm of my hand, I want them to make their own mind up about this. And if I've led them into a compassion and understanding for this particular person that did a terrible thing,

and if they have inclination towards forgiveness or at least maybe anti-killing that person well great but if I've done that by manipulating them they're going to forget about it five minutes after the movie's over so we have to be

responsible to those parents of those people that lost the children and remind the audience at the end remember this this is why he's here okay then if they still, after this, feel the same way, then we've done something significant. But anyone can manipulate with propaganda.

You can do it. It's so easy to do. But it's more difficult to get to a resolution in a complicated way that allows both sides to have dignity. Once you're there, it's my belief, that's when real discussions happen, where people's minds do change. Two things you're saying that, first off, I don't think we here in the United States are used to thinking about the media that we consume as propaganda. Well, that word is often just used to talk about.

media from other parts of the world. It's never really used in the American context. When did you start to realize that or come to that understanding or that idea that movies, in particular, could be a form of propaganda? I had a concept of it, but then actually to be in them, you get a larger understanding.

understanding of that. So when I broke through, when I became famous and didn't have to audition anymore, I would get scripts, right, sent to me. And when was, take us to the time, okay. After Boul Darm came out. So I saw all the scripts, right, that were going forward. And an awful lot of them had content that made me uncomfortable. and I would consider, in retrospect, I wouldn't have identified it as propaganda then, but I would, in retrospect, identify it as propaganda now.

I'm curious, what types of roles were you getting offered after Bill Durham? What were the things that you were turning away that you felt like were propaganda? Movies that had this kind of vigilante idea of justice or this idea that violence is somehow entertainment. like, you know, where there's just a lot of death. Like, you know, remember those movies where, like, Rambo. And, you know, it's just, I remember going to one of those movies and go, let's do a little, let's do a little counter here.

Let's count how many deaths we see here. And, you know, one explosion takes, well, that's about 20, you know. And adding up the amount of death you've consumed in a two-hour period. And something about that, I think it must, don't know what it is, but something about that really disturbed me, the idea that people are enjoying watching people murdered. That's weird. And it was all too prevalent. And it continued and continued and continued. And to the point where I believe today, that's the predominant movie and streaming service kind of thing we see, is just a bunch of violence that's uncontrolled.

Now, violence is absolutely important in the storytelling of some stories. Like, for example, Dead Man Walking. There's a very violent act that happens in it, but that's necessary for the drama. It's not for entertainment. It seems like a lot of these movies were, you've got to have a death every, you know, 10 minutes or the formula goes to pieces, you know. It just seemed weirdly exploitative and weirdly pornographic to me. It's just like gratuitous death.

I just want to know where your moral compass comes from. Like this, you know, I've heard you say, like you've turned down $7 million offers. The moral compass comes from having extraordinary parents with a very strong moral code, sense of justice. My father was a folk singer when his group, the highwaymen, were playing in the South. he refused to perform to segregated audiences so in the south they used to have you know the separation

and he said we're not going to perform unless you integrate this audience and so from the very start I had a very strong sense of what was going on in the world what our society was capable of and also what our society the traps it can fall into.

And they were both Catholic. My father was the choir conductor. He had a chorus, like in Popsie Turvey. And also, I think it was, weirdly, it was also having been a Boy Scout. Yeah. The code of the Boy Scout is pretty extraordinary. the characteristics that the Boy Scouts of America demand.

Our guest today is Tim Robbins, Academy Award-winning actor-director and founder of the actors' gang. Let's take a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. Support for NPR, and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy, working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right. Learn more at our wjjf.org.

Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nesper, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.

It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive. So subscribe at W-HYYY. org slash fresh air and look for an email from Mali every Saturday morning. You mentioned that you had so many folks that really opened up your consciousness as a young man, as a boy, a lot of theater, theater actors, but what movies, what art, what shows kind of like informed your consciousness and also informed your thoughts that this is something that you could do? I saw Pippin on Broadway when I was a kid.

That was pretty remarkable. I saw some theater in the park, the Shakespeare in the Park productions that were extraordinary. One by a guy named Andre Sorbonne, a Romanian director, who I would meet many years later and be able to show him my production of Midsummer Night's Dream. And it was like, you know, I've had these incredible moments with people like that,

mentors, people that, people that, you know like for example Dario Faux the great Italian playwright Nobel Prize winner when I was in college I read his play the accidental death of an anarchist and that was the first time that I felt

I could write a play so that was the starting point for me and then to be in Milan what was it about the play that made you feel like I can do this so funny but he was talking about

a real incident that had happened where an activist was murdered in police custody. So this very serious subject matter, but hilarious farce. And the mix of those two, when I read it, I thought that would be incredible to be able to mix those two things with something that I'm thinking about right now. And so to then, 30 years later, meet the guy and have him endorse the play I had just directed and then invite me into his world and to the point where the following year I was back in Milan

with a play I had just written about the Comedia del Arta called Harlequino on to Freedom and I'm sitting out of his feet as he's telling me his notes on the play. And I'm just like, how did I get here? And I had a similar experience with Robert Altman. Oh, yes, right. So, like, when I was in high school, and you mentioned what affected me or influenced me,

seeing Nashville in 1976, blew my mind. I thought, I had seen movies before that. but I had never seen anything that encapsulated the whole society in a movie. And I thought, wow, wow, you can make movies like that? And I was addicted to his movies after that. And all those other great filmmakers, by the way, in the 70s, Hal Ashby, with Harold and Maud and Pakula and all those great, early Scorsesee movies.

You know, it was a fertile time. You know, these were incredible people. So then to years later, being in a room where I'm meeting Robert Altman for the first time, I'd driven there, I'd asked my agent, what are the sides? What do I have to do? I want to be in this movie. No sides, no audition. He just wants to meet you, right?

So I was sitting down at lunch with Robert Altman at his place. And take us to the time period. 1991. 1999. And I'm, you know, I've done a few movies and he wants to meet me on this show called Shortcuts. And I had this incredible lunch with him and he said the reason I wanted to meet you is because of the theater you do.

Because he had been doing a lot of theater because he'd been kind of persona non grata in Hollywood for a long time. And he needed to keep creating and so he did theater. And it was his interest in the actor's gang that got me in the room. And then shortcuts didn't happen, but he remembered, and he, he remembered me, and he said, I'm doing this new movie called The Player, and I want you to do the lead in it. And I was absolutely in. I had to turn down a million dollars in order to do it.

and I had to then wait while the financing came through and it took a while and what I found out later was that Robert Oatman was offered his budget with a different actor and he said nope I promised this kid and I'm staying with him

and because of that loyalty I was able to be in a creative relationship with one of my heroes and I'm sitting there in the office observing during pre-production, observing Bob talking to department heads, and they'd come in and they say, Bob, you know, what do you think about this? And Bob would always answer with, I don't know.

What do you think? And they would say what they thought, and then they'd leave. And after they'd leave, I'd say, Bob, you know what you want, right? He says, yeah, I know what I want. But why would I cheat myself of a better idea? So I got to understand what humility is in the creative process. But teaching you that humility and also like why cheat yourself out of a great idea, it sounds like that's an ethos that you've taken with you throughout your career.

Absolutely. For me, working with Robert Allman on the three films I work with him on was my film school. It was my way into being able to direct. I, in fact, directed my first movie about three months after I finished doing the player. And I took his cameraman and his first AD with his blessing, of course. And then Bob, every edit I had of that movie, Bob Roberts, every edit I had, Bob was at. So I'd show it every Friday. And I'd invite friends.

And Bob showed up every Friday. getting better kid getting better that kind of thing that mentorship that love i you know been so blessed to have people like that in my life i miss him tremendously there's so many times particularly in the last five years where i've just wanted to pick up the phone and call him because i need his advice if you're just joining us my guest is tim robins actor director and founder of the actors gang his new play, Topsie Turvey, explores how the pandemic's isolation change the way we listen to each other. We'll be back after a break. This is Fresh Air. Shawshank Redemption is one of your most popular works. I'm sure just about everywhere you go,

someone talks to you about it. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah, it's very nice. It's very nice. I was joking with a friend of mine, you know, because we were out, about three or four times someone came up about Shawshank and they were like does that bother you? I said, not at all you know? Because you know what would bother me is if I

got famous for a movie where I played Kooky Magoober that would really bother Yeah, yeah Hey, Kooky McGuber that would be horrible that would be a nightmare

But as it is, this is a movie that really moved people. What do you think it is about this movie? Because it wasn't a box office hit when it first came out. What people are relating to really are like the ability to see it over and over again. I was on the phone with my mom and I told her I was coming to do this and she got really quiet. And she said, Shawshank Redemption is my favorite. movie. And I said, yeah, I know, everyone's favorite movie. But what do you think it is about it that people keep going back to it over and over again? And it hits the tender place within them.

Yeah. I think we all want to believe that despite the challenges we have in our lives, the obstacles that are placed in front of us, that there is a spot on a beach in Z-Wi, to nailho for us. I think that prison can be a metaphor for other things in life. There's many people that are in jobs that they have to have, but are not particularly liberating, shall we say. There's people in relationships that they should be out of. And I think there's various ways that we can close walls around ourselves in our life and imprison ourselves mentally and emotionally. And I think the idea that Andy had the long plan and could see a future that was brighter, I think that's something that people want to believe in.

I also believe that it's one of the very few rare stories. where you see a male friendship that is not contingent upon car chases or skirt chasing. It's not a buddy movie, which I've done a few of. It's a movie about a real friendship between two men. A love story in a lot of ways. Does your view of that role and that film evolve as you grow and evolve? I just appreciate it for everything it is. What a gift it has been. Because when people come up to me and talk to me about that film,

it's not like I love that film. It's that that film changed me. That film made me think in a different way. Not to mention the times that I talk to people that have been incarcerated. And I do work with people in Elgin. LA and California that have been incarcerated. The actors gang has prison programs. We do rehabilitation inside the California correctional system.

And what that movie means to those that have been incarcerated is profound. This idea of hope, this idea that freedom can be achieved even in the direst circumstances. So it's about what's inside. That's why Andy survives. 14 prisons you all have done work in. Did the idea come after Shawshank Redemption, because of Shawshank Redemption? How did that idea even come about to do that prison work? Were you all put on theater productions in prison?

No, we don't do productions. We go into the prison system and teach classes. The aim is to work in the way that we work at the actors gang. When we're workshopping, we use the Commedia del Arte. The reason we use it is because we want to free people of the idea that they have to create a character out of whole clock. So you go to one of those characters. And then the more important part of the work is you have access to four different emotions. And you have to choose one of them when you come on to stage. And those emotions are happiness, sadness, anger, and fear. That's it. So make a choice when you come on stage,

of one of those emotions in the character that you are playing and when I took this training in 1984 I couldn't get on stage I was already a working actor and there was this French actor named Georges Bego from the Teatro de Soleil

that just performed in the Olympic Arts Festival in Los Angeles and there were this big sensation and he was running this workshop and I wanted to take it right and he would not let me on stage he'd yell at me and he said get off get off get off and I couldn't figure it out

and I got really frustrated. And then I saw this one actor make an entrance and I understood what George was talking about. This total theater, from the moment you come on stage, an image, a character, an emotion, and an urgency and an importance to tell this story. And that was where everything shifted for me, for the work that we did.

This idea that the access to these four emotions is key to everything. but also the ability to shift from one emotion to another immediately, as it happens in life. You can be having the worst day in the world and find 100 bucks on the ground and go, hey, yeah, that's a good day, right? That's the way emotion works in us.

And so when you bring this into prison and you say, you got these four emotions, and you have to be able to switch from one to the other, like that. That's the training. So now you get a situation where they're in an improv as different Comedia del Arte characters, and one of them is angry. And then the other one is angry too. And you say, hold on, hold on. This isn't much of a scene because it's only going to be a fight. But what would happen if you responded to that anger in a different emotion, sadness or happiness or fear? What would happen? And so they

do that improv, right? Now, what are they learning here? They're learning that they have a choice in the emotion that they have in response to anger. That is the starting point, because it gives them agency over their own emotions. If they can do it in a theater improv, they can do it on the yard. And they do. And they realize they come to us with these, you know, you know, you incredible statements. Like, you know, I didn't realize until I took this class that I have been wearing a mask on the yard for the last 20 years. The mask is anger. That's the way, that's the emotion of survival in a prison. The anger face. The face that says, I will kill you if you approach me. And in this class, they realize, I am more than that. I'm more than my anger.

I have these other emotions. And for the first time in 20 years, I've been able to laugh like a giddy fool because I'm playing a character. Tim, thank you so much for your work, your honesty. And this time that you've spent with us, to tell us just a little snippet about your life and your career. Thank you so much, Tim. Thank you, Tanya. Award-winning actor, Tim Robbins. Coming up, TV critic David B.

and Cooley reviews the new Netflix miniseries, Death by Lightning. This is Fresh Air. Death by Lightning, the new four-part miniseries now streaming on Netflix, stars Michael Shannon from Boardwalk Empire as President James Garfield and Matthew McFadion from Succession as Charles Gittow, the man who assassinated him. Our TV critic David B. and Cooley has this review.

Death by Lightning is a period piece, but it plays like a 19th century version of the West Wing. It's full of political intrigue and unexpected betrayals, focusing on an elected representative whose desire is to do right and do good, no matter how many obstacles are in the way. James Garfield, played by the always intense Michael Shannon, brings his intensity to Garfield's public oratory. But at home, his Garfield is a gentle, loving, husband, father, and farmer, an unlikely person to rise to the top

in the snake pit of national government in the 1880s. Equally unlikely to achieve any level of success is Charles Gatot, another character from humble beginnings. Gutot, though, is a lot less noble than Garfield and a lot less humble. In fact, he may be delusional about his own self-worth, and he's not above stealing, lying, forging, or other crimes to further his ambitions. In the Stephen Sondheim musical assassins, Gatot was portrayed with the enthusiastic optimism of a child, and that's how he's played here by Matthew McFadion, who played Tom on Succession. It's a wholly committed, completely empathic portrayal.

You can feel Gatot's emotions, his highs and his lows, instantly and deeply, often in the same scene. As in this one, when we meet Gatot for the first time, facing a panel and defending his behavior in 1880 after being incarcerated in the New York jail called the Tumes. To speak candidly on behalf of the panel, Mr. Gito, you seem to us a liar. and a fraud. We fail to see how you've served as anything more than a drain on good society. A drain?

A drain on good society? That's, well... No, that's not right. That's not how this is supposed to go. No, sir, you sit there and you ask me to prove my worth. Well, let me tell you, I sit now in the same position.

as any one of our forebears, are we not a nation built wholly from rogues and migrants and freethinkers? Isn't that the whole point of this thing? Here, and only here, a man can be anyone. He can amass a fortune. He can influence millions through words or action. His name ringing down through the ages. Not a drain.

No. Not a drain, but a credit. Hell, under the right conditions, he might even be made president. James Garfield, on the other hand, has no such ambitions. He's a congressman representing Ohio, but spends most of his time back home. He's asked to do a favor for a fellow Ohio politician to nominate him at the upcoming Republican National Convention in Chicago. Garfield's nominating speech, though, is so inspirational that deadlocked convention eventually adds his name to the potential nominees.

On the 36th ballot, Garfield emerges as the Republican frontrunner, a fact that amuses Senator James Blaine, played by Bradley Whitford. It's yours, Congressman. You didn't ask me if I wanted it. Everyone wants it. Bradley Whitford from the original West Wing TV series is featured at the moment in another Netflix political drama as the first gentleman on the new season of The Diplomat.

He has more to do as this four-part miniseries goes on, and so do many of the other supporting players. Two in particular are worth spotlighting. Nick Offerman, as Chester Allen Arthur, is cartoonish and bullying when it's called for and sensitive when that's called for, and he's perfect in every scene. And Betty Gilpin, as Garfield's wife, Lucretia, he calls her Crete, is perfect, too.

You might wonder why Gilpin, after starring in American Prime Evil and Glow, is playing such a relatively small role, even one that's so dignified and independent. But her scenes with Shannon as Garfield are lovely, as in this rare moment alone, sitting on their porch after he's returned with his party's presidential nomination. Sitting here with you on this porch reading our books and peace, it's my favorite thing. Then why go to Chicago and stand up and give that damned speech? Because nobody was saying what needed to be said, not one of them. I waited. I waited, I hoped. Just one other man in that hall would stand up and tell the truth.

I swear to God, Crete, if that would have happened, I'd kept my mouth shut. But now I have to consider the possibility that I might be able to fix all the things that terrify me about this country. I mean, what if you and I could actually make a difference? But on another point in Death by Lightning, Gilpin's character explodes into a whole new gear, altering the course of history along the way. It's a moment that makes it clear why Gilpin took the role. The series is created by Mike McCowski,

based on the book Destiny of the Republic by Candice Millard. Among its executive producers are David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, who brought the Game of Thrones and Three-B. Problem to television. And now, they've all brought to TV a dated history lesson that seems not at all dated today. Death by Lightning is full of recognizable arrogance, political, social, medical, and also contains recognizable strains of both optimism and hopelessness. Those, by the way, all were central themes in the musical Assassins,

which included the actual song Charles Gatot composed to sing on the gallows just before his execution. The song is performed in part in Death by Lightning, but I'll close with the Broadway. version, sung by Dennis O'Hare as Gatot. Assassins is an outstanding musical. Just as Death by Lightning is Outstanding Television. David B. and Cooley reviewed the new Netflix miniseries, Death by Lightning.

I am going to the Lordy, I am so glad. I am going to the Lord I am so glad I have unified my party I have saved my country I shall be remembered

I am going to the Lordy. Tomorrow on fresh air, nutritionist Marion Nessel had to completely revise her groundbreaking book What to Eat 20 years later, thanks to changes in what and how we eat, like the prevalence of ultra-processed foods and the popularity of food delivery. Nessel guides us through today's supermarket maze and the influences that determine what's on our plate. I hope you can join us. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with special, Thanks to Jason Revee and Cheboygan.

With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley. jf.org.