Fresh Air - Why 'Joker' Director Todd Phillips Came Back For A Sequel

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

After his 2019 hit Joker, Todd Phillips knew he wanted to do more with the character. Joker: Folie à Deux picks up two years after the original, and features singing by Joaquin Phoenix and Lady Gaga. The director spoke with Terry Gross about his collaboration with Phoenix, how he got into filmmaking, and casting Gaga.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. A new sequel to the film Joker opens next month, starring Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker and Lady Gaga as Lee Quinzel. This film is a dark and unusual musical. The soundtrack hasn't been released yet, but we'll hear some of the songs a little later. My guest Todd Phillips directed and co-wrote both Joker films.

Joker is an arch-villain of the Batman stories, and Lee Quinzel is a version of Harley Quinn, the Joker's partner in crime before going her own way. Phillips describes the films as an origin story, but not the origin story. Both films are connected to the DC Comics universe, but they're more like arthouse films than superhero films. In Philip's first Joker film, Phoenix plays Arthur Fleck, a troubled man with a history of mental health problems. His dream is to become a stand-up comic. His actual job is dressing as a clown for an agency that rents out clowns for parties and occasions. One day on the way home from work, still wearing

his clown makeup, he's attacked on the subway by three young men. He shoots and kills them. Crime has gotten so bad in Gotham City, where the film is set, that he becomes a folk hero. His dream comes true when he's invited to be a guest on his favorite late-night show, hosted by Murray Franklin, played by Robert De Niro. But Arthur realizes Murray has been mocking him, so he shoots and kills Murray live on TV. In the new sequel, Joker for Lee Adu, Arthur has spent the past two years in the criminally insane wing of a psychiatric institution where he's awaiting trial for his murders. At a music therapy class, he meets Lee, who is a fan of Arthur's alter ego, the Joker.

Here's Lady Gaga as Lee. When I first saw Joker, when I saw you and Murray Franklin, the whole time I was watching, I kept thinking, I hope this guy blows his brains out. And then you did. And for once in my life, I didn't feel so alone anymore. Forget your troubles, come on, get happy Better chase all your cares away Sing hallelujah, come on, get happy

Get ready for the judgment day The French expression folie a deux means a shared folly or shared delusion, and these two characters share the delusion of Arthur as Joker and the perspective that goes along with that. The film touches on issues relating to mental health disorders, treatment of the criminally insane, and how the media can turn killers into celebrities. While Arthur is in prison, his story is media can turn killers into celebrities. While Arthur is in

prison, his story is told in a popular TV documentary. My guest Todd Phillips also directed the Hangover films Road Trip and Old School. Joker received Oscar nominations for Best Picture and Best Director, while Keane Phoenix won for Best Actor. The film grossed about a billion dollars at the box office. Todd Phillips, welcome back to Fresh Air. We spoke when Joker was released, and I enjoyed the film and our conversation, and I really like this film as well very much, so it's a pleasure to have you back. Well, thank you Quinn character in this.

I feel that the film is also tapping into shared delusions that we're living through right now in America. And I'd like to ask you what connections you see between this movie and shared delusions running wild today. Well, it's funny, you know, in some respect, you can think of Donald Trump. In some ways, I always think it's like the first time we've elected a president who's playing a character. I don't always believe Donald Trump believes the things he says he does, but in some ways he's playing a part. And it's worked a character. I don't always believe Donald Trump believes the things he says he does, but in some ways he's playing a part and it's worked really well. He became president, but you, for me, at least sometimes I look at it and go, did we elect a character and not this actual person? So, so, and is he still playing that role? So there's a little

bit of a correlation to just, you know, movies tend to hold a mirror in general. And the other thing I think that, you know, we kind of played with in this film that is definitely happens and has been happening for a long time is this idea of corruption. And it's not just corruption. Okay, the judicial system's corrupt, the media is corrupt in this movie. It's also the corruption of entertainment. This idea that if everything becomes entertainment, in other words, if a trial is put on TV and is sold as entertainment. That would never happen exactly and if a presidential debate is sold as as basically a ufc match when you look at the graphics on cnn or fox or whatever and it's and it's sold as entertainment if all that is entertainment then what is the entertainment that we all know and and supposedly love right what is done? So it's also about the corruption of entertainment in some ways.

So this new sequel to Joker is a musical. And I think it's really effective as a musical. And it's not the kind of musical where people just kind of break into song. It's the fantasies, what's going on in their minds.

Because we often kind of live in songs. We all have our favorite songs that we sing in our mind and imagine ourselves in that world. And that's what the music is in this. It's like an inner monologue, but in song and dance. What was your original conception of how the music was going to fit into this? Well, it started a long time ago. It really started in our meetings on the first film, our meetings, meaning me and Joaquin.

And we would just sort of talk about Arthur, and I always kind of explained that Arthur had music inside of him. And I really think that affected Joaquin and affected his performance, clearly, when you look at the first film and if people remember when he was dancing in the bathroom or dancing on the stairs that's all Joaquin basically moving to music in his head in Arthur's head of course um so we had this even though Arthur was left-footed and out of step with the world we always found that there was a romance in him, again, a music inside him.

So we just kind of used that as a leaping off point from here and said, what if we take that one step further? And what if when he meets somebody that he believes loves him, that he believes sees him, well, what does it look like when that music comes out of him? Originally, I think you and Joaquin Phoenix were thinking of this as a possible Broadway musical and decided, well, maybe it could be scaled down to a cabaret act at the Cafe Carlisle. What would a Cafe Carlisle cabaret approach to this Joker sequel be? Well, Joaquin and I have really long and ridiculous conversations and

and i think a lot of that was just you know during uh the pandemic us kind of continuing these conversations and realizing like oh maybe the broadway thing feels a little bit sweaty and maybe that's too much and maybe we just do something cooler so this idea was we would do like a very limited run at a yes kind of cafe carlisle type of uh venue and it would be i don't know how many it holds and we would only do you know thursday friday saturday for a month and a half or whatever it is and if you saw it you saw it we're not going to film it we're going to do anything it was just this thing because we were obsessed with continuing Arthur's story, however, and part of us, here's the easiest way to explain it, because I know that all sounds crazy, but oftentimes when you make a movie, at least

my experience as a director and a lot of the actors I work with, as much as we enjoy making a movie, you're kind of at the end counting down the days for it to be done. Almost like school, you're like kind of marking off your calendar like, oh my god, this has really been a bear. But on the first Joker, Joaquin and I didn't want it to end. And that wasn't just because we loved working together. That was also because we really loved Arthur. And we really wanted to explore more with the character. So on the last day of the first Joker, while on most movies it's a really happy time and all the crews hugging each other, goodbye, laughter, Joaquin and I were really kind of sad.

So all this stuff, the Broadway thing, the Cafe Carlisle, and ultimately the sequel to this movie was really about Joaquin and I just wanting to explore more and spend more time with Arthur. So I want to play a song from the film. And this is the song associated with Stevie Wonder for once in my life. And Arthur is singing it, Joaquin Phoenix. And he's, you know, he's fallen in love with Lee, the Harley Quinn character. But he's also just found out that he's fallen in love with Lee, the Harley Quinn character, but he's also just found out that he's mentally fit to stand trial for the murders and he's facing the possibility of a death sentence. And this should be a pretty, you know, for once in my life I found someone who needs me.

It's an upbeat song, but in this version there's these like dark chords that keep swelling underneath him as the song goes on. Do you want to just talk about your conception of this before we hear it? Well, yeah, you mentioned Stevie Wonder, but we closely associate this song as a Frank Sinatra song. The Frank Sinatra version, when we were writing it, was really kind of the first thing we came upon. That was, for me, it's just such a beautiful and big and bold rendition. The magic with Joaquin is, if so, if you were to YouTube, you know, Frank Sinatra singing this. And obviously, Joaquin is never going to sing like Frank Sinatra.

But the magic to Joaquin and why he's so brilliant is he brings so much emotion to it. And it's hard to believe that when you hear Frank Sinatra sing it, that for once in my life he found someone who needs him. It's hard to believe that that's really the first time in Frank Sinatra's life he found somebody. It is so true. But with Joaquin, you just believe it, as Arthur, I should say. You know, when Arthur sings it, you believe that he has finally found someone who needs him, and that has never happened to him before. So the point being, while Joaquin will never be Frank Sinatra, nobody would be, when you sing with that kind of emotion, in some ways, for me, it affects me more deeply than even the Sinatra version, which I always loved.

And what about those chords behind him? So that's, you know, us basically rearranging the music, you know, and we do that with, of course, Hildur, who was our composer on the first film, actually won an Oscar on the first film. She's brilliant. And so we'll do like a standard arrangement. And then I always kind of coined this term. Okay, now let's hilderize this and add some of the music again that Arthur would be hearing in his head to this version of the song.

And it kind of becomes its own thing. Yeah. Very dissonant. Okay. So here's for once in my life sung by walking Phoenix. Let's go boys. It's showtime. Wakey, wakey. Hey, come on.

For once in my life, I have someone who needs me. Someone I've needed so long For once, unafraid I can go where life leads me Somehow I know I'll be strong For once I can touch What my heart used to dream of Long before I knew Someone warm like you

Would make my dreams come true For once in my life I won't let sorrow hurt me Not like it's hurt me before For once I have someone I know will desert me And I'm not alone anymore For once I can say this is mine You can't take it Long as I know I've got love

I can make it For once in my life I've got someone who needs me You know, I love how just as it really starts to like swing and get more upbeat, then the clouds come in. Yes, he's right. You feel the emotions swirling in Arthur. And I think, you know, we tried to do that with the arrangement as well. You've said that you wanted with Joker and with this film, you know, you wanted to make a gritty movie, something that Scorsese might have made like Taxi Driver and King of Comedy, both of which you paid tribute to in the first Joker film. But you realized the way to get it funded was to make it seem like part of a superhero universe.

Had you been an avid reader of Batman comics or viewer of the movies or involved with any of the versions of, you know, Marvel or DC or, you know, any kind of superhero? Yeah, no, I never really said that in that way, by the way. What I always said is something I had always done before the first Joker was I made movies about groups of people, in fact, mostly groups of men, right? And what I really wanted to do was do a deep dive into a single person character study. But it did feel to me at that time in 2017, 18, that that's a tough movie to get made in the studio system at that time. So in some ways, it felt like, well, if you kind of couch it, it's one of these kind of superhero films, it might be easier to get it made.

And that's really what the germ of the idea for Joker started as. But believe it or not, as a young person, I did read comics. I read, mine was Daredevil, and I read anything Frank Miller did basically back then, which was he did a run of Daredevil comics, he did a run, of course, of The Dark Knight. And as far as the movies go, like anybody else, and certainly like every filmmaker, I try to see everything. versions through Joel Schumacher and of course what Chris Nolan did now I'm just talking about the Batman world you know that stuff absolutely affected me and you know I was in awe of what Chris Nolan was doing of course so all yeah all that stuff played into the movie as much as the you know inspirations for the films of the 70s that inspired, you know, the first film. When you were, like, reading Batman comics or watching Batman movies, did the characters strike you as mentally ill?

Like, you know, Joker and Harley Quinn? Well, certainly in Nolan's version and what him and Heath Ledger did, yeah, I would believe they probably spoke. I've never spoke to Chris about it. I would believe that it was informed a little bit by mental illness under that version of Joker. That definitely resonated, you know, with me. So another question about working with Joaquin Phoenix, and I'm not sure you'll want to answer this because I'm sure you want, you feel very protective of him, as I imagine you would with all your actors. But he's somebody who appears to be very eccentric and perhaps moody. And that's the kind of thing that can make it difficult for a director. So could you tell us a little bit more about what it's like to work with him

and to be a partner with him in trying to, for instance, rethink scenes or, you know, create a character? Yeah, I mean, what you're saying is sort of, I guess, a reputation that Joaquin may have, but all I can speak to, honest to God, is my experience with Joaquin, which is none of that. What I get is this very playful, very curious, and very brave actor who just wants to try stuff

and wants to try 11 versions of walking through a door. And to me, it's literally music to my ears, like we could do this all day, because it's all an attempt to find the emotional truth to a scene, which is really all your job is as a director, right? So, again, my experience with him is just not that. Since the character Lee Quinzel develops a persona just like Arthur does and his persona is Joker, her persona is Harley Quinn, it's a really interesting choice to cast Lady Gaga because Lady Gaga is a persona. Yeah.

So she knows what a persona is like. Yeah, that's an interesting point. You know, for us it was obvious because as we were kind of dancing around this idea of making a musical, making this sequel into a musical, I really wanted to find an actor that brought music with them. So it wasn't as much of a leap for people to look at and go, what the hell?

No, it's still a leap. It's still like we're asking a lot of the audience to understand what this is and where we're coming from. But I did think Stephanie, Lady Gaga, does some of that heavy lifting for us in that she brings music with her. So you keep saying Stephanie, Lady Gaga, acknowledging that Lady Gaga is a persona. Is Stephanie very different than Lady Gaga?

No, I mean, I say it because that's what I call her, like personally, but then I realize in life, most people use that term. So I just, it was like a habit, but I would say, yeah, I mean, certainly Lady Gaga is a character that Stephanie created and embodies. I don't want to speak for her. So she probably has her own theories on it. We never really spoke too deeply on it, but I mean, I think a lot of times, you know, there's, there's Eminem and there's Slim Shady and he creates these and then there's marshall mathers he's actually has a few but but yeah i think that happens a lot in entertainment with singers uh in particular um what i was

amazed at with i'm going to call her gaga now what i was amazed at with gaga the most was this idea of, um, could she be vulnerable? Could she really, um, obviously she could sing, obviously she brought music with her and all that stuff. And I've seen her be great in movies. And, you know, I was, I was one of the producers on A Star is Born. So I knew her a little bit. I knew what she was capable of as an actor, but the big question was, can she be, um, vulnerable in the way that Lee has to be vulnerable in this film? And, you know, she just brought that instantly. All right. Let's take another break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Phillips.

He directed and co-wrote the film Joker and its new sequel, Joker for Lee Adu, which opens next month. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees.

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shape your world in real and sometimes funny ways. Come work it out with us together on the Code Switch podcast from NPR. So I want to play another song, and this is a song that Lady Gaga sings, and it's close to you, the

Burt Bacharach, Hal David song, which was popularized by the Carpenters. But the way it's sung in this, the Burt Bacharach, Hal David song, which was popularized by the Carpenters. But the way it's sung in this, it has a kind of sinister edge to it or a very troubled edge to it. And I'd like to know what the original version, you know, what the hit version, the Carpenters version song meant to you and why you wanted to include it in the movie as a song as a song sung by um by lee for us it was um what's a funny thing this song because actually in the script we had originally

had her singing bewitched back to him arthur does an amazing version of bewitched um on a televised interview that he's doing for for kind of Geraldo Rivera-like TV personality. And he ends up singing Bewitched about her and to her. And her response in that scene was going to be singing Bewitched back, but then we realized, oh, why would we do that? And Stephanie and I, Stephanie's Lady Gaga and I, talked about other things to sing, and I had brought this song up to her because it was a song that I always remember being played for me in my house, not for me, but my mother playing. And a lot of the music in the movie, the Arthur

music, let's call it, is based on these standards that I always thought, oh, Arthur's mom was probably playing around the house and he would always hear these songs. And now it's kind of, they're coming out of him. And in some ways, that was similar with this, but I was thinking about my own experiences with this song and this idea of exactly what you said. There's two ways to listen to this song. You could listen to Karen and Richard Carpenter, and it becomes this really beautiful thing.

Or you could listen to Lady Gaga singing this to Arthur in a visitation booth at Arkham Asylum and think it sounds almost like, I don't want to say stalker, but a girl that you just, you might want to, there might be a red flag that she's singing this to him. Yeah, right. Right. Okay. So let's hear it. So this is Lady Gaga. Lady Gaga. Why do birds suddenly appear Every time you are near Just like me

They long to be Close to you Why do stars Fall down from the sky Every time you walk by Just like me They long to be close to you On the day that you were born

The angels got together And decided to make a dream come true So they sprinkled moon dust in your hair A golden star light in your eyes of blue That is why all the girls in town Follow you all around That was Lady Gaga from the soundtrack of the new film Joker, Fully Adieu. And my guest is Todd Phillips, who co-wrote and directed the film. from the soundtrack of the new film Joker Fully Adieu. And my guest is Todd Phillips, who co-wrote and directed the film.

So I'm assuming that the arrangement behind Lady Gaga was by Hildur... Gunnardotter. It's a really difficult name to pronounce. Yeah, you said it. I probably just said it wrong. That's why before I was like, I just said Hildur. I always mess it up. She's great. She wrote the music for both films, and I imagine arranged. She did.

Gaga, of course, on this movie had a lot to say and do with the musical arrangements as well. Well, because, you know, there's score and then there's song. So if Gaga's going to sing on a song, this is a perfect example close to you. It's very much dictated by Gaga's original arrangement, meaning what she wants to do with the song. And then, as I said earlier, we kind of hilderize it, certain ones, if we want to or not. was a really interesting uh approach because we were often in musicals you know the actors want to sing live on set and they do sing live on set but they're usually singing to a background track of you know of the music um but because joaquin wants it to feel really alive and of the moment he didn't really necessarily want to decide what that arrangement would be so we actually had a pianist live on stage in like a soundproof little booth playing so the actors were able to lead the music not the arrangement if that makes

sense and maybe this is a little too inside the inside baseball. So Gaga's pianist is in her ear, but he's following her melodies and her lead, if that makes sense. Which really, I don't know who's ever done that before. It was difficult because then we would backwards engineer the arrangement later in editing and put the music to it. It's so interesting. Like Lady Gaga is a powerhouse, but in the film she mostly sings in a very small voice, as we heard, which I found really interesting. I like that small voice.

Well, yeah, because it's not Lady Gaga singing, obviously. It's Lee, the character she's playing. So I think she had to unlearn a lot of things. And as gorgeous as the piece you just played is, because she will always have a beautiful voice, that's not Lady Gaga. She could do that, obviously, way bigger and way more professional. But that wasn't really what the character called for. So, you know, you picked up on it, obviously, that sort of smaller voice she's using. We use that a lot in the movie.

And then one time we really let her go when it's this full fantasy moment, right? Because the music in the movie is both diegetic and non-diegetic, meaning sometimes it's in Arthur's head and sometimes he's actually really singing out loud or she's really singing out loud to each other. So that one moment where it's really in Arthur's head, we really let her go.

Not the moment you just played, but another song later in the movie. Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Phillips. He directed and co-wrote the film Joker and its new sequel, Folie a Deux, which opens next month. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. Election seasons are tough on everyone. So Pop Culture Happy Hour is there to serve you recommendations and commentary on everything in the pop cultural universe while helping you snap out of that doom-scrolling mindset.

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City follow Empire City on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts I want to play another scene from the film and And Arthur, whose alter ego is Joker, he's about to go to trial for the crimes that he committed. But his defense lawyer has arranged a high-profile TV interview before the trial. Arthur feels like he has a reason to live now because he's in love with Harley Quinzel. The host appears to be trying to make the interview as dramatic as possible by being really confrontational. And I should also mention that the lawyer, his defense lawyer, is making the case that, you know, he kind of has a split personality. There's Arthur, who is traumatized by being abused as a child. And then there's Joker, who is an alter ego and a different personality.

And it was Joker who committed the murders, not Arthur. So with that context, here is the in-prison interview with Steve Coogan as the TV journalist and Joaquin Phoenix as Arthur Fleck. You still want to die? Well, at the time, it certainly seemed a lot easier to live in. But that's not me anymore. That's not... That's not who I am. That wasn't really you.

No, that's not... Let me get this straight. So your defense is it was the Joker who did it. An insanity defense. I don't know about a defense. This alternate personality, this killer clown in you killed Murray. Who am I speaking to now?

Which one of you is here? The poor, low IQ Arthur Fleck or the Joker who goaded a bunch of no good punks? Do you really care? You don't. You're just like Murray. You're just like Murray. You're just like everyone. You want sensationalism. You don't care about...

You just want to talk about my mistakes. You want to talk about the things that I did in the past. Not about who I am now. Not how I'm different now. That's what we should be talking about, Patty. Okay, so tell us.

What's changed, Arthur? Well, I'll tell you what's changed, Patty. I'm not alone anymore. Right. The girl who was singing the night you tried to escape. I'm only trying to escape. Miss Harley Quinzel. You two put on quite a performance that night.

Oh. She's really something, isn't she? That was Joaquin Phoenix and Steve Coogan in a scene from Joker Folie a Deux. There have been reports that Joaquin Phoenix wanted to rewrite a lot of scenes, and that ended up in last-minute meetings in a trailer, totally redoing the scene. How did you feel about that? You're a co-writer of it when your star wants to rewrite what you've written do you think like i think that's totally blown out of proportion i think is it yeah oh yeah yeah i mean this happened all across the first film and and

same exact idea here and it's not so much rewriting it's it's you know Joaquin just it has to all come from a truthful place for him to be able to do it and so god I mean I can't think of a scene in this movie or the others that we didn't kind of re-approach every morning in the morning of shooting and go okay how do we make this better how do we make it feel more truthful or you know but this happens with every actor I mean I remember making Due Date with Robert Downey and we did the same thing. It's like actors just want it to feel authentic, feel fresh. Sometimes they've played it too many times in their head and now they want to say something different, but I don't know, to me, that's all part of the process. And I think it's what Joaquin, I don't, again, don't want to talk

for Joaquin, but I think it's one of the things Joaquin really likes about working with me is that sort of flexibility that no, none of this stuff is written in stone. And yeah, of course we can relook at what the intention was when Scott and I wrote this eight months ago. And maybe it's changed by where we're at right now in the, in the filming of this thing, you know. What's it like for you to keep rediscovering things in your own work? Well, again, I started this, I started being a filmmaker through documentaries, and that's all documentaries are, is, you know, you set out to make a movie,

and then the movie that you end with is very different than what you set out to make, because the movie ultimately tells you what it wants to be and then I went to comedy where you would try to write a joke eight months before you film it and all of a sudden you have Will Ferrell on set and saying that joke to to Vince Vaughn and it doesn't land the way you thought it would land but Will Ferrell who's a comedic genius suddenly goes well well, what if I do this? So it's this flexibility I've always had with story that I think is what made me transition to working with somebody like Joaquin so kind of seamlessly, honestly, because oftentimes in a dramatic film, I would imagine that that

flexibility isn't always there. So to me, it's part of filmmaking. I jokingly always say filmmaking is not math, it's jazz, meaning it's a living, breathing organism that is constantly changing shape, movies are. So you kind of have to take that same approach to making them. We should hear one more song from the new film. And this is a duet between Joaquin Phoenix and Lady Gaga. And the song is the Bee Gees' song, To Love Somebody. This is a fantasy sequence where Phoenix and Lady Gaga are imagining hosting a live show, kind of like the old Sonny and Cher variety show.

And she's dressed, as I recall, in like an orange jumpsuit. Sort of a Bob Mackie-inspired look, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The famous costume designer. And so they're singing this song, and let's hear it. From NCB Studios in Gotham City, ladies and gentlemen, it's the Joker and Holly Show. There's a light Some kind of light

That's never shown on me I want my whole life to be Lived with you Lived with you There's a way Everybody say To do each and every little thing What good does it bring

If I ain't got you If I ain't got you Oh, you don't know what it's like Baby, you don't know what it's like To love somebody To love somebody To love somebody The way I love you Baby, baby, baby, baby

Lady Gaga and Joaquin Phoenix from the soundtrack of the new film Joker, Fili-a-du. I mean, can we just take a moment to really appreciate how absolutely brave Joaquin Phoenix is, that he's singing a duet with Lady Gaga, and he's attempting to hold his own,

and he's singing it as Arthur, and she's singing it as Lee, but you're entirely right. It's inspired by, of course, Sonny and Cher and that idea that if only things were different, they would have this future together and maybe be an act on the road or on television. However, this scene does not end well. Right.

Because Arthur is, even in his thoughts, wherever Arthur goes, Arthur is, if that makes sense. So, yeah, it always ends badly for Arthur, even his own fantasies. So why did you choose this song as like the showstopper on the Variety show? It felt very much like a song that they would have done on that show, you know, on Sonny and Cher. It felt very much, you know, we wanted it to be a duet of course there's something really beautiful about the lyrics um i think it was barry and robin gibb wrote these lyrics i'm pretty sure um there's something just and there's something there's a warmth to this song uh i don't know that comes over me when over me when it comes up in the movie.

We just thought it was beautiful and fun and also on point, on story. Do you love musicals? I do enjoy musicals a lot. And it's funny because I've gotten a little bit in trouble in the past for kind of saying, well, the movie's not really musical. And I, for the record, probably should be correcting that, because it is, in fact. There's a movie with music in it where people sing sometimes what they're feeling.

It's very much the definition of a musical. The reason I've always been a little reticent myself is because the musicals I tend to love, or musicals in general, when you walk out of them, you feel a lot better than you did when you walked into them. And oftentimes you find yourself whistling the music from the musical you just saw. And I guess I didn't want to mislead people because I don't know that you leave this movie feeling better than you did when you walked in. So I always think the term musical has a very positive slant to it. So in some respects,

that was my kind of reticence of using the term. If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Phillips. He directed and co-wrote the film Joker and its new sequel, Joker Folie a Deux. It opens next month. This is Fresh Air. All this month,

Shortwave is serving up tricks and treats. From ghost wolf DNA and the science of death to the relationship between anxiety and horror movies. With a slate of Halloween episodes to get you in the spirit. This October, subscribe to Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR. As election Day approaches, NPR's Consider This podcast is zooming in on six states that could determine who wins the White House.

Georgia, Nevada, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, and Pennsylvania. We'll ask voters in these swing states what matters to them and which way they want the country to go. Follow along with new episodes this week on the Consider This podcast from NPR. Arizona is a swing state with a booming Latino population. Joe Biden flipped it blue once. Could Kamala Harris do it again? NPR's Consider This podcast is talking to Arizona voters all week. We have to go recruit our compadres, our comadres, our neighbors.

How do issues like immigration and abortion play in the Grand Canyon State? Listen this week on NPR's Consider This podcast. So who were you when you were a young man? I know you went to NYU and you made a couple of documentaries as student films. One was about fraternity hazings.

That's right. And another was about a kind of very wild, controversial punk rocker. But who were you? Where did you fit in? I guess I was just fascinated by subculture in in a way um and i think that's what the the first film i made which is just references was called hated and it was about um a punk rock singer gg allen who ended up dying at the end of the movie for real it's a documentary um of a heroin overdose uh but for me it was really about the the subculture this thing that attracted me and and you know they always at least at NYU I remember my phenomenal professor Christine Choi

who I'm still friends with to this day would always say you know documentaries are 80 maybe 90 subject matter and I had stumbled on this you know musician and it just felt like, oh, yeah, this thing could really almost make itself in some ways. I look at that movie now and it's so shoddily made. You know, we made it for no money. It's shot on 16 millimeter film and it's so, so bare bones, but it's still effective because of who and what it was about but um yeah i guess for me i had i had just a deep curiosity like any filmmaker any young filmmaker at the time um for for things that that kind of interested me and and yeah i don't know i don't know if that answers it of who i was at the time i'm thinking a lot of filmmakers and novelists start off writing stories about people who are like them.

And you were kind of doing the opposite, I think. Yeah. Making stories about people who you were interested in but really weren't like you at all. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I always wanted to be a filmmaker. And I found, like, documentaries, in a way, you know, if you're not a naturally born gifted writer, which I'm not, by the way, you have to write from experience. But what experience do you have at 18 years old outside of, okay, my parents were divorced, I was raised with a single mom, but I don't know that I had the life experience that you then put into movies later on when you start writing movies.

So I always saw documentaries as a way to kind of live life on fast forward and to get experiences and to so to go on the road with who I am, being around that definitely ends up in your work later on. I mean, I think people, you could erase every movie between Hated and Joker and see a very clear connection between those two films. Did people have misconceptions of you because of the movies you directed, expecting you to be a kind of wild man? Yeah, I mean, people think I'm like a party guy or a bro, so to speak, or a fraternity thing. It's like couldn't be more opposite from who I am or, you know, oh, we got to go to Vegas with Todd. It's like, no, no, no, that's so not me. It's really funny. You've spent 10 years maybe on the same character? No, get out of here. Five years.

No, it's not 10 years. Well, okay, five years. Yeah, you're right. Seven years. You're right. I've spent seven years thinking about Joaquin Phoenix. That's true. Right. right um i i know i'd be incapable of doing like one one kind of project for so long i know i've

been hosting fresh air forever but but you have different people every day it's a different person every day i'm not kind of drilling down into one character and one you know basically one story yeah or you know no different chapters of one story for so long um what did that do to you um mentally to be to be living in that world for so long and it's a very troubled world it is and it is it is a world uh you're right um i don't i don't know i mean i i like to think it didn't it didn't uh uh affect me in in in the ways i think that you're getting at but again going back to what i said earlier like as a director all you want to do is be around great actors all you want to do is watch great actors i feel so blessed that i've

spent as you say the last five years definitely staring at jo Joaquin Phoenix's face, talking to Joaquin Phoenix, working with Joaquin Phoenix. I think he's the best at what he does. I think he's on Mount Rushmore for sure of his generation of actors. So I just feel so lucky. But yeah, it's nice to be done with it. You know, at the same time, it's nice to be done with it. So are you ready to make another comedy now? You know what? I am ready to make another comedy. I think that's what the world needs.

I think we are going through this. End of this year is probably going to be wild. And it does feel like everybody just needs to calm down and laugh again. Todd Phillips, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming back to the show. Wow, Terry, thank you for having me, and it was wonderful talking to you. Todd Phillips directed and co-wrote Joker, and the new musical sequel, Joker Folie Adieu.

The film will be released in theaters October 4th. The soundtrack will be released that day as well. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, the inside story of Trump, Russia, and the Mueller investigation, as told in a new book by three leaders of Mueller's team. We'll talk with one of them, Aaron Zebley, about the dilemmas they faced, why they didn't indict Trump, and the consequences of Attorney General William Barr's misinterpretation of the report. I hope you'll join us.

Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Charlie Kier. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Joel Wolfram, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly C.V. Nesper and Sabrina Seward. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

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