Fresh Air - Zombies Frontman Colin Blundstone

Episode Date: May 16, 2025

There's a new documentary about the '60s British band The Zombies. It's called 'Hung Up on a Dream' and it's streaming on Amazon Prime. We're listening back to Terry's 1998 interview with lead singer of The Zombies, Colin Blundstone. The band had a reputation for being clean cut and well mannered. "People want rascals and rogues and naughty boys. So in a way, I think that it went against us a bit," he said.Also, we remember actor/director James Foley. He directed Glengarry Glen Ross.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Look, we get it. When it comes to new music, there is a lot of it and it all comes really fast. But on All Songs Considered, NPR's music recommendation podcast, we'll handpick what we think is the greatest music happening right now and give you your next great listen. So kick back, settle in, get those eardrums wide open and get your dose of new music from All Songs Considered, only from NPR. This is Fresh Air. I'm David B. Inculli. Now here's a group which has only experienced moderate success here in Britain, but which has had several big hits in the States. Singing for you, we present The Zombies.

You're my lover, I'd do most anything Americans were right about The Zombies, whose first record, the still spooky She's Not There, made it all the way to number two on the Billboard pop chart in 1964. In England, the same single topped out at number 12. Five years later, by the time the group scored its biggest hit with She's Not There, the Zombies already had broken up. But they left their mark. The Zombies were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2019 and they're now the subject of a new documentary

titled Hung Up on a Dream directed by Robert Schwartzman. Terry Gross spoke with the lead singer of the zombies Colin Blundstone in 1998 when a box set also titled Hung Up on a Dream had just been released. It contained singles, rare and unreleased tracks, and appearances on BBC Radio. Here's the Zombies' first single. ["Hung Up on a Dream"] Well, no one told me about The way she lied

Well no one told me about her, how many people cried But it's too late to say you're sorry A word I know, why should I care? Please don't bother trying to find her, she's not there Well let me tell you about the way she looked, the way she had to end, the colour of her hair Her voice was soft and cool, her eyes were clear and bright, but she's not there Well no one told me about love, what could I do? Well no one told me about love, though they all knew But if too late to say you're sorry

How would I know? Why should I care? Please don't bother trying to find her She's not there Well let me tell you about the way she looked The way she acted, the color of her hair Her voice was soft and cool Her eyes were clear and bright My she's my best

Colin Blunstone, welcome to Fresh Air Terry, thank you very much You got to record this song after the zombies won a contest in, I guess, St. Albans where you were from. And you won first prize and the first prize was an audition with Decca Records. Tell me about the contest. The competition was held in Watford Town Hall, which is about eight miles away from St. Albans where we all went to school. And Watford Town Hall was quite a big venue for us. It held about 2000 people.

And because there were 10 bands on every night, they all had their supporters. And it was absolutely packed. And it was a bit like a football crowd. You know, everybody had banners and bells and rattles and it was quite a sort of a wild place to play and we won our heat. I think there were sort of 10 weeks of 10 bands and the winner got through to the final and then we won the final. It was a magical evening. I'll never forget it. What did you sing in the final competition?

Oh, I was hoping you weren't going to ask me that. We sang a zombie, sorry, a Beatles song. You Can't Do That. Oh. You know? Got something to say that might cause you pain. Do you remember that one? Absolutely.

I like that song a lot. Yeah, I do too. And we sang Summertime, which went on our first album. And we did it as a sort of a jazz waltz. It was very jazzy. And we sang a couple of other songs, and I can't remember what they were. Why was the group named the Zombies? Well quite simply because we'd been for the first few weeks of our career together, this was just when we were at school. I think to start off with we were the Mustangs and we found that there are a million bands called the Mustangs.

And then we were the Sundowners and we had the same problem and Paul Arnold who was our original bass player There was only one change in the band and this is why we were still at school He came up with the idea of the zombies and I think we all thought that no one else would Crazy enough to call a band the zombies and it so it really I think that in a way it was an act of desperation We were just trying to find something that no one else would have thought of. So we ended up as the zombies. What do you think defined the zombies sound? Well, I think a lot of the sound really comes from the writers. We had two unique writers in the band and very prolific writers as well. And I think possibly, especially Rod Argent, his songs were, I think, well,

truly wonderful. I think they were brilliant songs. And he also was a brilliant keyboard player. So you've got these great keyboard breaks that he would keep putting into songs. Also, he was a very accomplished musician, even at an early age. He understood a lot about music, which certainly he was in a different league to me. So a lot of our chord progressions and the bass notes we put on the bottom of chords were quite unusual. And he also understood vocal harmonies because he was in the cathedral choir until he was about 17 or 18. And if we played a gig on a Sunday night we'd

have to go and pick him up at the back of the cathedral where he'd been singing in whatever the thing had been at the cathedral and he'd have to be taking off all his church clothes and getting into his rock and roll gear and then we'd go off to the rock and roll gig. So I think our harmonies helped to make things a bit different as well. I think there were lots of things that contributed towards it. But the songwriting and the vocal harmonies. And then maybe there's a little bit of the interplay between Rod's writing and my voice. I mean, both of them, Chris White and Rod Argent, used to write songs for my voice. What were the qualities of your voice that you think they wrote for? Well, especially for those days, I sang in quite a high key, compared with lots of other

singers. Nowadays, lots of people do that. But I think that was one of the things. I think I tend to sing sad songs better than happy-go-lucky songs. Songs would have a sort of a haunting quality about them. She's Not There is probably a good example. I think they would look for that. Songs in minor keys perhaps would be another thing they would look for. So lots of little things all added up to the zombie sound.

Yeah, a lot of the songs you sang had more to do with vulnerability than showing how strong you were. Yeah, that's right. Well, that's me. Let's hear another one of the zombies big hits. And this is Tell Her No. Tell us something about the song or the session. I think as I remember, we'd been touring with Dionne Warwick, who you would call Dionne Warwick and through that we'd got very interested in Burt Bacharach songs and I have a feeling that Rod Argent who wrote this song was going through a period of being influenced a lot by Burt Bacharach. With regards

to the session we would record probably three or four maybe five backing tracks in an evening at Deco recording studios and then we would put vocals on and it would probably be 12 o'clock or 1 o'clock At night before I got around to singing and I always remember this session because I was fast asleep when they finished and they Woke me up to sing teller No And in fact there's a mumbled line in the middle of teller No Because I was half asleep when I was singing it. And I said, listen, guys, I better just do that again because there's this mumbled line.

And they said, oh, no, no, that's fine. Don't worry about that. And I've heard stories of people who in bands who have been trying to copy our version of Teller No, and they've been desperately trying to work out what the lyric is. And I have to after 15 or 30 years or whatever it is, I have to tell them, well, you shouldn't have bothered because it's just a mumble. So there is no lyric there really. Where is the mumble in the song?

I'll leave it to you to find out because I can't remember off the top of my head. Oh, come on. No, really, I can't remember. It's something like you play the song and then I'll have a think about it while you're playing Okay, why don't we play it you listen in and then you tell us which the line was. Okay. Okay And if she tells tell you, come closer And if she tempts you with a charm Okay, that's alright. Last one. Tell her no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no And if she should tell you I love you

And if she tempts you with a charm That's it Here it is. That's it. Did you hear it? Yeah, so was the part. Yeah, go ahead. It sort of sounds like, don't love her love from your arms or something, but really it's ... I always heard it as, don't hurt me now from her arms and I figured well I don't know what that means but it's alright.

I get the joke. Yes. Well what it means is it was a rather sleepy zombie who was trying to do his best but was a little bit not with it. He was amongst those not present. I always loved your chorus of you know the tell her nose with your whoa, whoa, whoa's in it and all that. Did you sing it the same way for each take or did it always come out different? Well, it wasn't something that was specifically written. It was, okay, Colin, now do a little

bit of something here. I mean, it probably would have been similar, but it wouldn't have been exactly the same. What was it like to be in the United States and build as a British Invasion band? What did that mean to you? Well the surprise for me was the reaction. I mean I wasn't particularly aware of the fact that we were part of the British Invasion. I'm not sure if that term was used certainly to me at the time. I mean I know the expression now.

But, so I can't really say I reacted to that phrase when I was there. But what was interesting to me was the enthusiasm and the huge numbers of the fans in America for all music. I mean, things were a little bit more basic back here in the UK. We would be traveling in the back of an old van There were very few freeways in this country. We call them motorways. So we would be traveling on Country lanes vast distances in a broken down old van. It wasn't terribly glamorous really except we were we were having fun We were 18 years old. What did we care?

but then when we went to America we were playing to huge audiences and very, very enthusiastic audiences that were screaming and screaming and rushing the stage and tearing our clothes off and it was all pretty exciting stuff really. Very exciting. Do your best to be honest with me about this. What's it like when you're 19, you're a young man, you're just getting started, you know, as a man in the world and sexually and all that.

And here there's like, you go from city to city and women are screaming and screaming over you. I mean, this must really give you a sense of being something else, you know, and just ... Very lucky, is the expression I was thinking of. Well, I enjoyed it very much. Definitely, it was wonderful. Well, I mean, how much did it go to your head?

Sometimes that type of stuff really deforms people's personalities. I don't think it did too much in our band, but again, probably better if someone else judged it because we sort of had periods of success and we had periods of not being so successful and we were brought down to earth with a big bump and also in the band no one was allowed to get too carried away I mean we'd grown up together and anybody who got too carried away would be slapped into place pretty quickly it was it was very exciting and it was great fun but we all still lived at home with our parents. We still lived in the little area that we'd grown up in.

And we weren't really allowed to get too carried away. When you started performing, particularly when you came over to the States and started performing, did you get a lot of advice or guidance on what to wear, what kind of haircuts you should have, what kind of eyeglasses the guys in the band should wear, all that image type of stuff. No, we didn't actually. And I think that image-wise, I think it was a weakness in the band. I think, you know, we were together professionally for three years, although we were together for four years at school.

Towards the end of the three years, I think we were getting the image thing a bit more sorted out, but it had just been a natural progression for us. And I think that we needed help, I think, earlier on. How could it be any different? Our first record had been a huge hit record around the world, and some of the guys had just left school. And I don't know how much other bands thought about image but we certainly didn't and I wish that some shrewd character had given us a bit of help there.

And then you just mentioned spectacles, two of the guys wore very heavy rimmed spectacles and at a time when if you're in a teenage band of course you want to look fairly attractive for people and it wasn't very fashionable at the time for young men in rock bands to wear glasses. And towards the middle or the end of our professional career Paul Atkinson stopped wearing those heavy rimmed glasses and wore contact lenses and he was a very good looking lad and I think it might have helped us a little bit if he'd wore contact lenses from the beginning. Just little things like that I think we could have looked into. And I think also, She's Not There is a very charismatic song. It's eerie, almost could be a little bit sinister,

and I think we could have worked on that. Right. Instead of which, we came with a very jolly little tell-her-no number for our second record, which was, didn't seem to me to follow She's not there very well really in one article that I think was written in American Newspaper or magazine an article that's quoted in the liner notes to the new zombies box set the band was described as Clean cut quiet well-mannered intelligent they like gentlemen. Was that considered good or a liability at the time?

Well, it's funny when you... To be so clean cut in your image, yeah. When you met people in the media, I think they quite liked it because we turned up on time and... You didn't insult them. We didn't insult them, we didn't spit and, you know, but when you actually put that into an article, I think it can put people off. People want rascals and rogues and naughty boys, you know, then do you know what he did?

Do you know what this guy did? People love that, you know? But then they're not having to face it firsthand. So in a way, I think that it went against us a bit. Mind you, I'm saying all this with hindsight. I didn't realize it at the time. We were just making it up as we went along. Well, let's pause here and play something from the New Zombies box set. And this is a previously unissued recording that you made, I think, at the BBC.

And it's a cover of Burt Bacharach's The Look of Love. You had mentioned before that the band had, what, toured with Dionne Warwick? That's right, the very first tour we ever did. And we were fantastic Burt Bacharach fans. I think still, I still am a big Burt Bacharach fan. He just writes the most wonderful songs. Were you thinking of Dionne Warwick

when you sang this yourself? No, because the version I'd heard was by Dusty Springford. And I think she had a hit in America with that version, but she didn't have a hit in the UK. It's funny how that happens. People can have hits with a wonderful version of a song in one country, and it doesn't mean anything in another country.

Very strange. And now you're hearing the sweet and swinging sound of the zombies one more time, in The Look of Love, written by Bert Bacharach. The look of love is in your eyes, a look your heart can disguise The look of love is saying so much more than just words could ever say Just words could never say What my heart has heard, whether it takes my breath away I can hardly wait to hold you, feel my arms around you How long I have waited, waited just to love you Now that I I found you

You've got the look of love Is on your face A look that time can't erase You're mine tonight We are now at the end of our drive. I can hardly wait to hold you, feel my arms around you How long I have waited, waited just to love you Now that I have found you Don't ever go, don't ever go Ah, ah, ah, ah

I love you so Colin Blundstone spoke to Terry Gross in 1998. After a break, we'll continue their conversation and we'll remember director James Foley, who died last week at age 71. His films include At Close Range, After Dark, My Sweet, and Glengarry Glen Ross. I'm David Bianculli, and this is Fresh Air.

Nice and driving, all right? One, two, three, four. And this is Fresh Air. Love has gone, can I return the joy she's dreaming of? I don't know, I don't know But if it don't work out The tears that I've cried and begged Won't bring her home If it don't work out If they don't work out

Will she still care for me the way she did before? Will she turn around and tell me she don't love me anymore? I don't know I'm Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. At a time of sound bites and short attention spans, our show is all about the deep dive. We do long-form interviews with people behind the best in film, books, TV, music, and journalism. Here our guests open up about their process and their lives in ways you've never heard before. Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.

A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story, but right now you probably need more. On Up First from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the Up First podcast from NPR. Know that fizzy feeling you get when you read something really good, watch the movie everyone's been talking about, or catch the show that the internet can't get over? At the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast, we chase that feeling four times a week. We'll serve you recommendations and commentary on the buzziest movies, TV, music, and more. From low brow to high brow to the stuff in

between, catch the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from NPR. The very last hit that the zombies had time Time of the Season, was from an album called Odyssey and Oracle. It's an album that didn't sell well at all in the United States. And the hit single, Time of the Season, I think was released long after the album had already kind of bombed. What is the story behind why this record came out in the way that it did? Well, it really intrigues me because I sometimes think that records have

a life of their own because everything was against this record. We recorded it for CBS Records in London. They'd only just started up. They were quite a small company in London and they gave us a very limited budget. I think it was a thousand pounds, which even in those days was a very small budget for doing an album. And there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm. We'd had quite a few flop singles. We'd just come back from a disastrous tour of the Far East. And we went into the studio, recorded this album, and there really wasn't a great response

in the UK. I don't think in America they didn't want to release it at all. But Al Cooper from Blood Sweat and Tears was in London and he just bought a lot of albums and took them back to America. And he wrote the sleeve notes on this album in America and he just felt that this album stood out from everything that he brought back from the UK. So he alone is responsible for what happened with Time of the Season, because I think CBS had given up on this album. But he said, listen, this is a wonderful album, you must release it.

When you think of how major record companies get behind some records or some acts and they put lots of money into promotion and marketing, and probably the band have just come off a huge hit as well. And so you know that something's going to happen with this record. Time of the Season had no right to be a hit, but I'm very, very glad that it was a hit. And even in the studio, I tell this as a story against myself, I didn't really like the song and I didn't want to sing it. And it had been written more or less in the morning before we recorded it,

and I wasn't too sure of the exact melody. And it's a Rod Rod Argent song and he's very emphatic that when he writes a melody he wants it exactly as he wrote it and quite so I mean I agree with him it should be like that and Rod and I had a set two in in the studio it was in studio three at Abbey Road and he wanted this song absolutely as he wrote it and I kept making little mistakes and I said to him, Rod listen, if you know how to sing it, you come in here and you sing it and he said to me, mind you the language was a little bit richer, I hasten to add, he said to me, Colin, you're the singer, you sing it and it went on from there. It was quite a fiery moment. But I mean, I'm really glad that he made me stand there and sing it.

I would be very upset if I hadn't done it. Well, let's hear it. This is the zombies time of the season When love runs high in this time Give it to me easy And let me try with pleasured hands to take you in the sun To promised lands to show you everyone It's the time of the season for love, please What's your name? Who's your daddy? Is he rich like me? Has he taken any time to show you what you need to live. Tell it to me slowly. Tell you why I really want to know. It's that time of the season for loving.

So what was the condition of the band by the time this record became a big hit? Well, Rod Argent and Chris White had been very successful as songwriters for the Zombies and for other artists as well. And I think that had fired their enthusiasm and they knew they wanted to stay in the music business. But for the other three, I mean, we were really struggling just financially because our concerts were few and far between, our records weren't selling, and we were quite frankly going broke. And so it was getting more and more difficult for us. On top of

that, we had worked absolutely solidly for three years. There were no sort of three weeks touring here and then six months off or something like that. We worked solidly. three years. There were no sort of three weeks touring here and then six months off or something like that. We worked solidly. And just speaking personally, I think I was very, very tired and just a little bit disappointed with the way things had gone, remembering that we started off with a number one hit record, a gold record, She's Not There. And from there on in, we seemed to have gradually slipped down the hill of success or however one explains it. And so I think personally, I was feeling very disappointed. And I remember we were having a rehearsal, Rod Argent and Chris White were

sharing a flat and we were having a rehearsal there. And Paul Atkinson said, listen guys, I just think that's enough for me. You know, I think I need to move on and do something else. And Rod said, well, listen, if one guy's going to leave, I think we should all perhaps get out and try new things. And I said nothing. I just kept my head down and thought, oh my God, what's happening? And I just went up for a long walk. Danielle Pletka When time of the season came out, did everybody in the band think, well, maybe we should actually stick together after all? Well unfortunately the band had finished at least an hour, at least an hour, at least a year before Time of the Season was a

hit and in that time everybody was doing very different things and really it at the time it felt impractical for us to get back together again. Again with the benefit of hindsight, I think it could have been done if everybody had wanted to do it. Colin Blundstone, it's really just been a pleasure to talk with you. I thank you very much for being with us. Well, thank you, Terry. Yeah, it's been fun. Colin Blundstone speaking to Terry Gross in 1998. He led the original zombie invasion as lead singer of the British group The Zombies, which

had several hits in the 1960s. A new documentary about the group, titled Hung Up on a Dream, has just been released. Coming up, we remember filmmaker James Foley, who died last week at age 71. His films include Glengarry Glen Ross, a David Mamet play currently being revived on Broadway. This is Fresh Air. Shortwave thinks of science as an invisible force, showing up in your everyday life. Powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life.

Come explore these connections on the shortwave podcast from NPR. Keeping up with the news can feel like a 24-hour job. Luckily, it is our job. Every hour on the NPR News Now podcast, we take the latest, most important stories happening and we package them into five-minute episodes. So you can easily squeeze them in between meetings and on your way to that thing, listen to the NPR News Now podcast now. Hey, we here, that's no faster. You've probably seen clips from the Jennifer Hudson show Spirit Tunnel on TikTok or Instagram,

the ones where celebrities dance down the hallway to a clever song. These videos can reveal a lot. Do they have rhythm? And how famous are they, really? We're breaking down the inescapable internet trend. Listen to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from NPR. This is Fresh Air. We're going to remember film director James Foley, who died last week at the age of 71, after a years-long struggle with brain cancer. Foley started his career with the 1984 film Reckless, starring Aidan Quinn and Darryl Hannah. He followed that with a 1986 film At Close Range, a moody neo-noir drama based on a true story about a murderous rural crime gang.

The film has gained a dedicated following since its release. Christopher Walken plays Brad Whitewood Sr., the leader of the gang, which specializes in the theft of expensive farm equipment. He pulls his son Brad Jr., played by Sean Penn, into the gang. But as he learns of an FBI investigation, Brad Sr. begins murdering members of the gang. But as he learns of an FBI investigation, Brad Sr. begins murdering members of the gang he fears will cooperate with the police. He kills his other son, Tommy, and orders the

murder of Brad Jr. who is wounded but survives the shooting. In this scene, Brad Jr. is holding a gun and confronts his father. A note to listeners, you will hear gunshots. Is this the gun you used? That's my son's gun. Is this the gun you used to kill Tommy? Tommy's dead, isn't he? Don't talk to me about Tommy. Is this the gun you used to kill Terry?

I never did nothing to Terry. No! No! Wait! Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! Wait! Is this the gun you used on everybody, on me? Is this a family gun, Dad? Jesus. Put that down. I've seen you.

You're gonna die. I know one thing clearer than I've ever known anything in my entire life, except that I loved Terry before you killed her. And that is that you're gonna die. You got the guts to kill me? The soundtrack of At Close Range included the Madonna song, Live to Tell. The music video of that song, as well as two other of her videos, was directed by James Foley. He also directed Madonna in the 1987 movie, Who's That Girl?

Foley's other works include the film After Dark, My Sweet, adapted from a Jim Thompson novel and The Chamber, adapted from a Jim Thompson novel, and The Chamber, adapted from a John Grisham novel. For television, Foley later directed 12 episodes of the first three seasons of the Netflix series House of Cards, and also directed episodes of Twin Peaks, Hannibal, and Billions. In 1992, Terry Gross spoke with James Foley live on stage after a screening of his then latest film, an adaptation of David Mamet's Pulitzer Prize-winning play, Glengarry Glen Ross.

Mamet wrote the screenplay. The play currently is being revived on Broadway, starring Bob Odenkirk, Kieran Culkin, and Bill Burr. But in Foley's 1992 movie, the cast included Al Pacino, Jack Lemmon, Ed Harris, Alan Arkin, and Alec Baldwin. Here's a scene written for the film which doesn't appear in the stage play. Baldwin plays a corporate man who has come down to the real estate office for a pep talk of sorts with a salesman. You call yourself a salesman, you son of a bitch? I don't gotta listen to this sh- You certainly don't, pal.

Because the good news is, you're fired. The bad news is, you've got all you've got just one week to regain your job, starting with tonight. Starting with tonight's sit. Oh. Have I got your attention now? Good. Because we're adding a little something to this month's sales contest. As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anybody want to see second prize?

Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired. Did you get the picture? Are you laughing now? You got leads. Mitch and Murray paid good money. Get their names to sell them. You can't close the leads you're given. You can't close s***. You are s***. Hit the bricks, pal, and beat it, because you are going out. Before we hear Terry's interview with James Foley, let's listen to one more scene from

the film. It features actors Ed Harris and Alan Arkin talking about what they could do if they had good leads. The leads are the suckers to whom they hope to sell real estate. Well. Hey. So all this, you didn't actually, you didn't actually call Graf, you didn't talk to him? Not actually, no. You didn't? No, not actually. Did you? What did I say? What did you say?

I said not actually. F*** here, George, we're just talking. We are? Yes. Because, uh, because it's a crime. Robbery, that's right. It is a crime. Robbery, that's right. It is a crime. It's also very safe.

You're actually talking about this. That's right. You're gonna steal the leads. Have I said that? Are you? Did I say that? Did you talk to Graham? What did I say?

What did he say? What did he say? Did you buy them? The language, as we all heard, is not exactly naturalistic. It's a really kind of stylized, like hyperrealist form of colloquial language. When you're reading the script and figuring out what you want to get out of it as the director, how does a mammoth script read different from what you're used to seeing as a script? Well, it's good, which is very different. And I think the most important thing when

I read this screenplay, I certainly was aware of what it was and I really began to read it with some trepidation, like why do I want to make a film out of this Pulitzer Prize-winning play? It was not something I ever saw myself doing. And so I read it with the, well, you know, not likely. But what really surprised me was that the reading of it seemed much more emotionally accessible than my memory of the play. I had thought when I saw the play that it really appealed to me sort of from the neck up and was an interesting intellectual, philosophical, black, humorous sort of experience. But reading the screenplay for some reasons that I later analyzed for myself, it really opened up a whole other level of an emotional accessibility to the

characters that had not been evident for me on stage. Did you want people to read the lines naturalistically or were you looking for something else? No, that was very important because I became aware early on that there was a real danger that actors could get into with language like this where they get seduced by the superficial level of gratification that comes from just saying good dialogue

that's written in a rhythmic way. Because if you just memorize the lines and say them fast, they sound good. And so one could get convinced that it actually meant something. And that actually happened a lot when we had actors come in to read and some really heavyweight actors had come in and read.

And they made a big mistake by sort of having prepared in that superficial way. And so it was flashy and entertaining but totally boring to me. What I was much more interested in was getting actors who had an interior emotional life that was easily accessible. And I felt as if the technical aspects of being able to fire off this rapid dialogue with something that would come later, but it was secondary to me to this internal life, and an internal life specific to cinema actors.

The casting is terrific in the film, but it seems to me you've brought together actors with really different kinds of acting styles. You have Jack Lemmon, who's a kind of naturalistic actor. And Al Pacino is Al Pacino. I was going to sit and wait until you get an adjective for each guy. But Ed Harris is kind of chameleon-like in a way. And he can really blend into a role. But Lemmon's of a different generation than a lot. He can really blend into a role. But there, I don't know,

Lemons have a different generation than a lot of actors in there, both in terms of his age but also in terms of his style. And I was wondering if you consciously picked people with different acting styles and what it was like to work with people who, it seems to me, probably take really different approaches to their characters. Yeah, there was certainly no intention to deliberately pick people with different styles. It was really, I mean, Al and I literally sat down and made a list of who we thought were the best living actors. Without even regards to what parts they could play or how old they were, who do we think

is great? And the list isn't that long, you know, when you sit down and just say who's the best. And we started from that idea and wound up with these guys. And it's very true that they all have very different styles of acting. And it was a great fun for me when, particularly when they were all in the scene together and you say cut and then you need to go out and speak to each one of them and I'd find myself instinctually speaking an entirely different language to each one, which was nice because it made me sort of really

expand my own idea of what it means to be a director. For me, the most important thing is to do what needs to be done rather than what you want to do. So you needed to speak a different language to each of the actors? Totally, yes. Okay, so what would you tell Jack Lemmon as opposed as Al Pacino as well as Ed Harris? Jack Lemmon will speak very clearly about the thing quite literally. The thing being what's going on at the moment. Perhaps the most telling thing is that when Jack would talk about the character, he would

say he. He would say, I think he's feeling this because of this and blah blah blah and say whole articulate sentences. Al would never speak like that because first of all he would say I referring to something but he would never talk about any kind of singular idea or notion and something that I understand very much because if you articulate a single idea that's happening, then you might try, you know, you might sort of glom on to that in too much of a specific way,

rather than letting all the contradictions and ambivalences that might naturally come out. So he's very reluctant to identify any one particular feeling, and even reluctant to finish a sentence. But I began to understand very well what he was talking about and I agreed with him. So our communication was more like him saying, I think, you know, maybe, you know, and I say, yeah, right, more so, blah, blah, blah. And we somehow did it and even to the point where it got to, you know, where once we had

done enough takes where we both felt like we know, where once we had done enough takes where we both felt like we really had it, we would always do one crazy one. And that's why we just call it a crazy one, because to try something just that was a stupid idea. But it's amazing how many of the crazy ones are in there. James Foley speaking to Terry Gross live on stage in 1992, after a screening of his then new movie, Glengarry Glen Ross. More after a break, this is Fresh Air.

Sean Diddy Combs could go to prison for the rest of his life if he's found guilty of charges including racketeering and sex trafficking. Keep up with the trial by following Here and Now Anytime, a daily podcast from NPR and WBUR. We're covering Diddy's trial, the rest of the news, and a lot more. Every afternoon on Here and Now Anytime. Great conversation makes for a great party. But how do you ask the questions that really make the room come alive?

Well, you're at LifeKit. We've got you. What is a path you almost took but didn't? On our latest episode, how to ask the magical questions that'll make your party sparkle. Listen to the Life Kit podcast from NPR. Let's return to Terry's 1992 live onstage conversation with director James Foley after a screening of his then new film version of the David Mamet play,

Glengarry Glen Ross. Foley died last week at age 71. You know in the movie all the actors have to sell really crummy real estate. They have really bad leads. The real estate isn't good and the people who they're supposed to be selling it to don't have the money and they don't have the interest. I wonder if getting assigned to or volunteering to make a movie that you don't really believe in would be the equivalent of what these guys are up against, selling stuff that isn't good. That's very interesting. I think exactly that. I have thought about that because I had one experience where I did that and it was hell. I directed an episode of Twin Peaks and it was in the second season and I had, they asked

me in the first season and I couldn't do it. So they asked me at the beginning of the second season and I said yes and I made this commitment and thinking it would be like the first season. By the time I got there, David Lynch had totally abandoned the thing. The scripts, he was not putting input into the writing of the script. He was off in Tokyo selling his art. And there I was stuck with this script that had nothing, it was like faux Lynch. It was like a bunch of people sitting around sort of making believe they were David Lynch. And I'm stuck with this script and it was, I was horrifying. Nothing was more terrible in my life.

Because you don't know what to do. I don't know where to put the camera. I don't know what to say to the actors. I just, I just want to go home. And it was really, really an awful experience. Luckily it was only four or five days, you know, one episode. But it gave me a lesson about that very thing, that there's no way I could get through making a film that I didn't, even if delusional, didn't think had the potential to be good. When you're directing a movie in which all the actors in it are playing a part of somebody who's very aggressive in selling, are they that way when you're trying to direct them? Was it intimidating at all because they're all playing these really manipulative people

who have their wraps and they have their ways? No, it was, which has been my experience really on every film, that actors really, really want to be directed and they want interaction. Even the big stars? Well, that's what's great is that it doesn't matter who it is. And I really think the best actors, like Alan and the rest of the guys, are so interested in trying anything that they very much want a reaction. And what was interesting, as you said before, is that each person wants that reaction in

a different way. Some people don't want you to say certain things and other people do want you to say certain things. And that's the fun part is this instinctual idea of figuring out what it is that they need at what time, including sometimes being a little bit, pushing a little bit more than they might want at the time. But there's a mutual understanding of what you're doing. Who did you push?

Oh, I pushed them all at different times and in different ways, you know, but it's just, it's all different how you push them all at different times and in different ways, you know, but it's just it's all different how how you push them because sometimes pushing just means Let's do another take right now really fast and then go away but you know has to be really fast because you know, we're really in and you sort of discombobulate them on purpose because you feel Like perhaps we're getting into a kind of a rut and it's getting too precious and people getting too conscious of what they're saying And you want to.

And I've taken to do weird things like, you know, I demand silence all the time from everybody on the crew and everything. I'm always barking about that. And then I get total silence and then when it's ready to go, I scream, ka, not ka, what do I scream? Action. One of those two things. And just scream, action, like as loud as I can, which is like really startling.

And then the actors got to start saying his line. But it's sort of like sometimes you see them standing there and they're getting too much into a plan of what they're going to do and you want them to forget their plan and let whatever happens gonna happen. And so it's all different things of doing. I actually threw a fit once, a fake fit, yelling at somebody on the crew just to get the actors out of their lethargy and change the mood, the electricity on the set. Was the crew member in on the fact that this was a fake fit?

Yes. Yes. I made sure I did that. What were you throwing the fit about? I was throwing the fit about people talking because I'm famous for throwing fits, real fits, because people will not shut up. So I asked this one guy to talk, right, so then I could turn around and scream at him. It worked. Did it get what you wanted? Oh yeah, definitely. So what did it get you? It got me, the actors, being more immediate. The thing you always have to fight on take 11 is that people do

an exact same thing and it begins to become, they begin to remember that they just did it before and so there's a repetition, an inevitable repetition. So it's almost like this feeling you have when all of a sudden in the middle of the day the weather changes dramatically and it goes from being sunny and calm and then wind is coming and you feel your whole mood and everything change. You've got to sort of change the weather on the set sometimes. Listen, it's been wonderful to have you here and it's been wonderful to get the kind of insights that you could give us into this film and into filmmaking in general. So thank you very, very much for being here.

Thank you. James Foley speaking to Terry Gross in 1992, live on stage after a screening of his then new film, Glengarry Glen Ross. Foley died last week at age 71. On Monday's show, Cole Escola, the writer and star of the Broadway play Oh Mary, a crazy comic reimagining of First Lady Mary Todd Lincoln in the days leading up to her husband's assassination.

The New York Times calls it one of the best comedies in years. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorroff. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Diana Martins. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Beham-Cooley.

On the Indicator from Planet Money podcast, we're here to help you make sense of the economic news from Trump's tariffs. It's called in game theory a trigger strategy or sometimes called grim trigger, which sort of has a cowboy-esque ring to it. To what exactly a sovereign wealth fund is. For insight every weekday, listen to NPR's The Indicator from Planet Money. World news is important, but it can feel far away. Not on the State of the World podcast.

With journalists around the world, you'll hear firsthand the effects of US trade actions in Canada and China, and meet a Mexican street sweeper who became a pop star. We don't go around the world, we're already there. Listen to the State of the World podcast from NPR every weekday.