Friday Night Comedy from BBC Radio 4 - Catherine Bohart: TL;DR - 2. What's Putin's endgame in Ukraine?

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

Columns. Analysis. The Guardian's Long Read. Who has time? Catherine Bohart, that's who, and she's going beyond the headlines to give you the lowdown on one of the biggest stories this week, alongside a guest journalist and roving correspondent Sunil Patel.This week: what's Putin's endgame in Ukraine?Topical comedy stalwart Gareth Gwynn is our guide through the detail, and historian Julia Leikin joins to explain how the region's past is affecting its present.Meanwhile, in the TL;DR Sidebar, comedian Sunil Patel looks at the advantages of having a former comedian as your President when on a war-time footing.Written by Catherine Bohart, with Madeleine Brettingham, Sarah Campbell and Georgie Flinn.Produced by Victoria Lloyd & Lyndsay FennerRecorded at the Museum of Comedy, and Edited by David ThomasProduction Coordinators - Beverly Tagg & Anna MadleyA Mighty Bunny production for BBC Radio 4

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Welcome to TLDR, Too Long Didn't Read. The news for people who genuinely care, but not quite enough to get through all the Sunday supplements. I'm Catherine Bowhart and you're safe here, sweet one. We're going to explain what you missed. We're coming to you from the tiny bunker that is the Museum of Comedy. You can't see it but it's very fancy in here. Rude. I'm standing under a giant animatronic Bobby D'Avro. It's incredible. Each week we unpack a big old story for you because let's be honest,

keeping on top of the news is a full-time job and you already have one of those, I assume. I don't know you. Also, there's literally never been more news. It's very draining. The news is the most complicated Norwegian television show your smartest friend recommended, but it doesn't even have catch-up.

There's no previously on the news. There should be. Also, would have heard if they judged up the news a bit? If Clive Myrie began every bulletin with, what up nerds, where were we? I'd never miss an episode. I'm just saying rebrand to Myrie's piping hot tea for goodness sake. We're not here for general chit chat.

We want to get into it. I needed to think of an Irish woman at a funeral, not an English woman at a funeral. Yes. The nodding suggests some Irish women in, yes. So how do we choose a story when there are so many to pick from this week? Well, in Westminster there's been a truly juicy slagging match between Rachel Reeves and Jeremy Hunt. Reeves said that she's scrapping the winter fuel allowance for all but the poorest pensioners, blaming Tory mismanagement and saying she had to make tough decisions. I don't know, how tough is it to be like,

guys, can I just be really brave and say something? None of this is my fault. We all have that friend, yes. In reply, Jeremy Hunt said, I think it actually discredits politics when people call each other liars. No, not politics. You couldn't discredit politics.

The last bastion of credibility. Jeremy Hunt has also said that Reeves had the figures, which reminds me of the luck my mother would give my dad when the credit card bill came in after Christmas. Didn't we have a nice time, Timothy? Didn't you enjoy the port? In sport, people all over the UK breathed a sigh of relief when the Olympics kicked off with a significantly worse opening ceremony than London 2012. The triathlon was

postponed while it was determined whether the Seine was too polluted to swim in. And the answer was, alors c'est la vie beuf. Oui c'est la chite mais c'est pas beaucoup de chite comme ci comme ça. What I'm saying is Britain, France isn't so different from you after all. You both have horror little poo water. Big news for my homeland of Ireland, Daniel Wiffin has become the first ever team Ireland swimmer to win a gold medal, only the ninth gold in our history.

So may I be the first person to congratulate him in a traditional Irish way. Now don't be getting too big for your Veruca socks, right? It's far from gold medals you were rare to the Olympics, the notions. And Egyptian, Nardaha Fizz, competed in the Olympic fencing while seven months pregnant.

She wasn't an official entrant, she just had enough and was near the swords. She got through three rounds. Opponents commented she kept muttering under her breath, we're not pregnant, I'm pregnant. In reliable conversation topic with your neighbors news, it's been hot. So hot the Met Office has issued a yellow heat warning.

I don't really know what yellow means. I feel like they should explain it like they do in Nando's. As a ginger, I can only do lemon and herb weather. Truly a recessive gene, we shouldn't still be here. But this week, we're focusing on Ukraine. Against a backdrop of ongoing conflict and tragic loss of life, there was a fresh glimmer of hope as the first F-16 fighter jets arrived in Ukraine

on Thursday from NATO member states, after months of preparation and pilot training. Ukraine's president Vladimir Zelensky has said they are essential to help Ukrainians push back against Russia's aerial dominance. But since the war started so much has happened and with an overwhelming amount of news to keep on top of we wanted to take stock of where we are now. The full-scale Russian invasion began in 2022 and here in the UK there was shock and outrage even though Ukrainians were like I, Russia invaded in 2014 guys. But what we lacked in speed of uptake,

we more than made up for in things like putting up flags, changing the spelling and pronunciation of chicken dishes. And we sent them all of our old jeans. Do you remember that? That was good of us. But since then, it's been harder to keep track of, is Boris Johnson still there? Did someone remember to pick him up?

Occasionally, President Zelensky will pop up in a video at a UN summit, the Oscars or your nan's 70th, asking for help to save his country's future. And we'll all stand around thinking, wow, how does he maintain that physique? All I'm saying is if you put hashtag I stand with Ukraine in your Twitter bio two years ago and now feel like it's starting to sound a little inauthentic, I stand with you. We're going to comprehensively dig into all of the details and ask questions it might

feel too late to ask. Like what was the impetus for Russia's initial invasion? Is there a negotiable end to this war? And does Zelensky get those t-shirts made bespoke or what? Feeling overwhelmed? I get it. But do not worry. We've got a man in the know on our side,

a man who looks like he'd win the pub quiz and even had Putin drive by him while he was in Russia. There's no more we could ask of a guest. It's Gareth Gwynn, everybody. Gareth is a writer and presenter who's written for Have I Got News For You and the News Quiz and appeared regularly on The Now Show. Welcome, Gareth.

Thank you very much. So two and a half years into a war, Ukraine is a daunting story for anyone to get into. How do we even begin? It's complicated. I was nervous as to whether I would know enough about this story to talk about it. I'd been following it and I was really nervous, like, am I the right person to do this? And then I watched Biden get Putin. And I went, oh, I'm overqualified, if anything. Just in the man's defense, it is confusing that one of them's called Vladimir

and one of them's called Vladimir, right? I feel like NATO should solve that. Like, whoever wins gets to keep the name. The loser's Steve now, surely. It is complicated. It's very complicated. And I don't know how far back to start this story. If I'm honest, it's been a little while

since I've checked in and I am sorry about that. That now sounds like a confession. Yes, I'm sorry. Some habits are hard to break. Go on. Uh-huh. So Ukraine was one of the countries that was part of the USSR.

So if you think about the last 100 years, it has seen Stalin, Chernobyl, the Cold War, the fall of the Soviet Union. And you can tell it's dramatic because every one of them is currently a drama on either Netflix, Amazon or HBO. And I've got a rule. If you're dramatizing your history and Jared Harris turns up, you're in trouble. That's reasonable.

Then Ukraine got independence in 1991, but since then there's been Russian interference in elections, Putin's invasion of Crimea in 2014. The Wikipedia history page for Ukraine is like watching someone dangerously tenacious on Total Wipo. They're just going again and again and again, getting walloped, they just keep going. But yeah, February 2022, Putin announced a special military operation, which is dictator speak for 900,000 troop invasion. And the tone was...

They started with 900,000. Started with 900,000, yeah. the tone... They started with 900,000. Started with 900,000, yeah. What's the population of Ukraine? 38 million people. 900,000 troops showing up and you're a pretty big deal. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you'd notice. LAUGHTER There'll be a queue of pret.

Yes. LAUGHTER But the tone for the whole thing was set on day one by the troops on Snake Island. Don't know if anyone remembers this, there were these two Russian warships. Sorry, Snake Island sounds like an iconic homosexual dating show. Yes. I do hope when we've rebuilt we will get to see it.

Sorry, that's a place? It's a place two warships turned up and announced they were invading and the soldiers responded by saying, Russian warship, go f yourself. Did they actually say go f yourself or were they brave and use the whole big word? They were braver than I am at 6.30 on radio floor. What like over a? Yeah over a radio. That's so cool. And brilliantly that got turned into a stamp. What? So the Post Office of Ukraine did a competition to go, guys, we need to commemorate this incredible event of someone

selling a Russian warship to go f for themselves. So they did a competition and there is a stamp of a guy giving the finger to a warship. That's incredible. Incredible. Okay. The soldiers were given a posthumous medal of bravery until it turned out they were alive. What? Yeah, there was like an admin error. Sorry, what?

They'd been captured and now they're home and now they've been given the medal in person. But it is very soap opera. So, for two and a half years there's been massive Russian offensive followed by massive Ukrainian counteroffensive. It's the stats are Russia currently occupies 20% of Ukraine. That's really gone down since earlier on in the war. Ukraine has recaptured more than half of the land previously taken.

The fighting is brutal. The International Criminal Court has accused Putin of war crimes. Russia is blockading Ukrainian ports, bombing schools, bombing hospitals. But a recent poll said 55% of Ukrainians still don't want to compromise any land to Russia in a peace deal. And that is what happens when you put a soldier giving the finger on your stamps.

I think it does something to a nation. Yeah. Do we think that there's a way in which it will end negotiably, or is there a likely solution without Ukraine ceding land? For me, the biggest sign that Putin might be thinking about how to end this is he's just appointed an economist as his defence minister. Interesting. Yeah, that is a sign, isn't it? I've never had my accountant say, now's the time to buy a fighter jet.

Yes. It does feel like panic stations. It's very much like, if you don't stop this now, I'm going to have to get your father involved. Yeah. This week, Zelensky said that he would like to see Russia attend the next peace summit that's held. Because they held a peace summit and no one invited Russia. No one invited Russia? No one invited Russia.

Isn't that sort of how dictatorships start? You've got to invite them to the parties, guys. This is how they become evil. They didn't invite Russia. And well, China refused to turn up. Okay. So the hope is is that if one of these happens again that Zelensky is now saying he would like to see Russia turn up, which people think is a sort of step in the direction of okay, they're talking about how this could end.

A recent poll said 32% of Ukrainians would accept some territorial concessions to end the war, which isn't high, but that was a 10% this time last year. Is the presumed alternative that if they don't concede some land, then you end up with an ongoing war that we don't know, we don't have an end in sight for? I think that's the situation. But it does seem that this war will end in a negotiated peace and not on the battlefield. But we are looking at a sort of like bleak conference centre outskirts of a major European city. Someone will say we're doing a run for lunch. It's Gregg's.

Yeah, I think that's where we are. The Russians will be like, we don't have Gregg's or anything. That'll be great. The problem with negotiating is that you should do it. People want to go into a negotiation when you're winning, but if you're winning, you don't want to stop because you think, oh, hang on, I might win. It is why the Olympics only lasts two weeks

if it's not last man standing. Oh, I'd watch that. LAUGHTER And, yeah, as we are recording this, there is a prisoner swap going on between Russia and several countries involved. Is that like wife swap? LAUGHTER

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's 24 people in six countries all trading prisoners at once. Like Pokemon. Like Pokemon. Closer. I knew we'd get there. Are you saying that the prisoner swap is indicative of a man who maybe will occasionally accidentally act in everyone's interest if it's in his own?

I think it's interesting that these conversations have been happening behind the scenes. And this isn't anything to do with the war in Ukraine, but I think it is interesting that when Russia think they can get something, then they're willing to sit down and chat. Is it simply an unwillingness to concede the national spirit that has been the determining factor as to why it hasn't been just a slam dunk for Russia, or is there more to it? Oh, I think that there's a huge thing about it. I don't think he was expecting the sort of Ukrainian spirit. I don't think he was expecting the support from the NATO countries because lots of countries have donated old military equipment. I say old military equipment.

It's good stuff. Like it makes me think of the army surplus store in Pont de Préve. Yes, weren't we all thinking of that? Yes, thank you. Well, I think the slogan was, if it smells of wax, we've got it. Goodness. But this week, Ukraine are getting fighter jets. Yes, they are.

From NATO, that's happening. Russia wanted to destroy them immediately. So in the last month, Russia has attacked three Ukrainian airfields, so they can't use them. Moscow claims that they've destroyed six fighter jets, and Ukraine probably went, no, no, no, they were the decoy fighter jets.

They have big fighter jets? And I've decided I want to work in the factory where they make the decoy planes. Because you have all the fun of making planes with none of the actual pressure. It is like working for Boeing. LAUGHTER The big pressure from Russia at the moment is aerial right? Yeah yes yes

so they've got these well they say that we're putting pressure on them from all directions kind of thing so there's also sanctions is this big thing is a big package of sanctions on Russia so airlines can't fly over it we're not buying Russian oil anymore Coca-Cola and McDonald's have both pulled out of Russia. How have they lasted so long? Imagine having to get through a war when every time you went to a restaurant the waiter was like, is Pepsi okay? Russia have replaced McDonald's with its own brand.

What? Yeah, so they went, oh we've got all the places, let's invent a new McDonald's. What do they go with? It is called, I wrote this down because I wanted to make sure I got it right, it is called Tasty Period. My mind is moving at so many miles per hour but I need you to know not one single thought yet has crossed it that is appropriate for 6.30 on the radio. Now Zelensky might be president of Ukraine but he's also a former comedian

so who better to give us their take on him than current comedian, I'm told. It's our TLDR special correspondent, Sunil Patel, everyone. CHEERING Obviously, there's lots to say about the Ukraine conflict. Five years ago, when Zelensky was appointed leader and everyone heard he was a comedian, oh, how they laughed. Well, they're not chuckling anymore. That's right from my point of view. The most important thing here is that Zelensky has finally put some respect on our name.

Comedians are tough guys now. All right. Who's with me? Great. Okay. Now for too long I think we've lived in the shadows. Forced to eke out a living, advertising building societies, and pretending to know about politics on Radio 4. But no longer. Vladimir Zelensky has proved that comedians can be brave, something that those who've seen me cry in the toilets after a bad gig might struggle to believe.

Zelensky became president of Ukraine in 2019 when he decided he needed a proper job to put on his mortgage application. Because it turns out, even if you literally do an advert for a building society, they're not lending you a penny. He has heroically led Ukraine throughout the war with Russia, which as someone who gets insecure when other comics go

viral on TikTok, has, I'm going to be honest, it's been quite a tough watch. He also recorded the voice of Paddington Bear in the Ukrainian re-dubbing of Paddington, for anyone who was wondering why Paddington kept urging Hugh Bonneville to acquire long-range kamikaze drones. As if leading Ukraine through a war wasn't hard enough, Zelensky has also been awarded the Czech Republic's Order of the White Lion, possibly the coolest award ever to sound like the name of a racist terror cell.

Zalensky has also been compared to Winston Churchill, who was of course famous for his witticism such as, I might be drunk today madam, but tomorrow I'll be sober and you will still be ugly. And then later on on the same evening, the slightly less famous. So anyway, shag. But Zelensky's career change makes sense, as doing stand-up and being president both take a kind of irrational confidence. I mean, who hasn't got offstage after doing a good middle ten at the Frog and Bucket and thought, I'm a god, these people would die for me, let's march on Moscow? Still, comedians and presidents aren't completely the same.

Zelensky has criticised China's support for Russia, whereas I would never criticise the behaviour of a powerful colleague in case it affects my career. So, relax Catherine, your secrets are safe with me. As long as you keep booking me. And if I'm not here for the next episode... You won't be. Zelensky's career does mean he might be the only world leader

ever to have played the piano with his penis on camera. LAUGHTER That we know of. That we know of. Although I've got my suspicions about the president of Belize. LAUGHTER Shout out to Johnny Brisenio. I hear you can knock out some Rachmaninoff through your pants. LAUGHTER Now, other comedians have, of course, run for office in the past. Shout out to Johnny Brasenio. I hear you can knock out some Rachmaninoff through your pants.

Now other comedians have of course run for office in the past. There was Beppe Grillo in Italy, co-founder of the five star movement. Not the first comic to have awarded himself five stars and judging by some of the Ed and Refringe posters I've seen this year he won't be the last. It also invites the question which British comedian would make the best wartime prime minister and why is it definitely Mr Tumble? That guy is terrifying. If he'd been prime minister during World War II, Hitler would have shot himself on day one. To be honest, there's no way a British comedian should be in charge of this country.

Not for political reasons, I just hate it when colleagues become rich and successful. It makes me feel sick. Makes me feel sick to my stomach anyway congrats on the show Catherine the one with your name in the title it's lovely although I do think Prime Minister's questions would be better if it was done as a comedy roast but that's not for any democratic reason it's just because I'm a messy bitch who lives for drama. I am pleased that Zelensky has passed the test of time as president as previously the only retirement options if you were a comic were either to start a podcast or become a

TV racist and I already have two podcasts so my options are running out. So all hail Zelensky. He has proved that one man can change the fortunes of his country and more importantly, that comedians are hard. Grrrrr. Do it again? You make me do it again? Okay. Grrrrr.

So Neil Patel, everyone! Okay, we are in the weeds. We've got into the nitty-gritty and I don't know about you Gareth but I still have a load more questions. I was worried you would. Okay well don't think so because we have an expert. Everything's going to be okay. Joining us now is Dr Julia Lakin. Julia is a Teaching Fellow of Russian and Modern European History at Royal Holloway. Her forthcoming publications set the scene for understanding the Russian Mediterranean, an important frontier in the development of Russian and modern European history at Royal Holloway, her forthcoming publications set the scene for understanding the Russian Mediterranean, an important frontier in the development of Russian international and maritime law. But has she ever had her own comedy show on radio for? No, so who's intimidated

now? It's still me. Please welcome Julia Lakin everyone. I was worried that my questions for you would all seem silly to you. Oh, don't worry, I teach undergraduates. That's so savage because I was a history undergraduate and you're not wrong. I guess my first question in terms of historically, was this always going to happen? Was it inevitable or did Putin just wake up one day and decide it's time to reset the day since we invaded a country clock? Nothing is inevitable, but certain things probably made this a lot more likely.

So I think here, now, rather than giving you my philosophy of history, I think it's more important to talk about Putin's philosophy of history. And Putin's philosophy of history posits that Ukraine and Russia are more or less the same entity. And what he needs to do is kind of correct this historical wrong where Ukraine was created as a separate entity and it really shouldn't have been. So the question here really is, was it inevitable since Ukraine became independent from Russia? And at what point would that have been?

Would that have been with the dissolution of the Soviet Union when Ukraine was the only republic to have a referendum and decide to leave the union to become independence? Or was it when Ukrainian politics turned away from Russia as it happened in 2013, 2014? Do you think it could have been any other president or do you think so it is Putin specific? I personally think that kind of the opposition or the antagonism between Russia and the West wasn't inevitable. And we have had other presidents like President Yeltsin in the 1990s. So other presidents didn't feel the need to defend Russia's interests by say, invading

a nearby country. Okay, slightly more secure men? Are we saying that? I think I think I think I've gotten too far. I think pursuing a different policy. So I guess this is a long winded way of saying I don't think that antagonism is inevitable. I think that this was Putin's reading of a situation. And I think that there was a lot kind of that went into his desire to perhaps secure his legacy, take advantage of a world distracted by by COVID, listen to his advisors, Peter the Great and Catherine the Great. They're historically imperialists who added a lot of territory to the Russian Empire in the 18th century.

And there's a lot of Putin's men say that those are the only advisors he listens to. He did have this conversation with some textbook writer, I think. What is going to be written about me in the textbooks in 2015 or something like that? The answer was, you know, you did something for the Orthodox Church. And then now they could say Khrushchev gave Crimea away and Putin got it back. But how much do you think he buys his version of events? Is some of it cynical? Like his purported reason for going in the first instance was ridding Ukraine of Nazism.

Do you think he actually thinks the Jewish president of Ukraine is a Nazi or is that about a Russian understanding of Nazism that's different to a British one? So that's actually that's a very incisive point yes so the way that Russians understand... That was a very incisive point everyone. Go on. Say more on that note. No, no, no, but this is a key point that I wanted to emphasize that the Russian understanding of Nazism isn't as linked to the Holocaust as the Western understanding. So you can be Jewish and still be a Nazi who wants to betray the Slavic brethren, give them up to the Germans. So Jews aren't the only victims of Nazism because so many Soviets died.

So he buys the narrative that he is selling to his own people about it being about eradicating Nazism. You don't think that's just a cynical... it can be column A and column B. I think it is column A and column B. Obviously that's one contention he's made to his people. The argument that NATO provoked Russia, is there anything there in terms of regardless of the intent, he definitely perceived a slight. Do you think he did or do you think he's manufactured that? So I don't think that NATO was necessarily the proximate cause of the war. But, okay,

but I think that talking about NATO not only is it is really compelling and a simple story that the Russian public can understand, but also, I mean, NATO also resonates with the Russian public because it was originally an anti-Russian alliance. So, and despite all kind of post-Cold War guarantees that it won't expand, it continued to expand. So it's not entirely unreasonable from his perspective to kind of point out that this anti-Russian organization is creeping closer and closer to Russian borders We've obviously heard a lot about sanctions, but Russia aren't allowed to compete in Eurovision anymore. How was that not enough? In your professional opinion. Yeah, we have heard a lot about sanctions. The problem is that they haven't worked At all. So here's the thing. There are many ways of circumventing the sanctions like the,

you know, Belarusian shrimp and Belarusian avocados, iPhones through Kazakhstan. And we've, you know, just this week there was a story in the news about how Russia can get micro electronics like conductor chips through Hong Kong and through China. So basically all of the things, all of the kind of dual use or weapons technology that would be sanctioned, Russia can still have access to. It's not clear that the Russians do feel like they're living in a pariah state just because the economy is bubbling along pretty well. Okay, so not as effective as one might think. Okay, does anyone have any questions for Julia or Gareth?

I'm Darren. Hi Darren. How do you think that within the axis of resistance that's recently been more talked about, Russia's position sits within that? Because obviously now they're relying somewhat on Iran, on North Korea for providing some munitions. Are they a needier country in terms of having to rely on North Korea more? Or actually does it give them power because they're economically supporting a country that perhaps needs that? I don't know if you read the journal Foreign Affairs, but a brilliant historian...

Pretty cool bra, do you, Leo? But a brilliant historian named Stephen Kotkin has recently published an essay where he discusses five scenarios for Russia, and he essentially thinks that Russia is on track to becoming North Korea, more or less. I mean, this is the worst case scenario but this is the scenario that he envisions but I think that essay would probably answer this question much better than I can. That's such a classic university professor move to be like, well what I'm going to do is assign you some reading, don't I?

That's right. Who goes to a comedy show and gets homework? We've got another question at the front. Hi. Hi, what's your name? Gordon. What's your question? There's no one here as complicated as the other as the other question, but Gordon. Thank goodness. I was feeling a little If Putin was ever to agree a peace deal, how could he be trusted afterwards? That's a great question It truly felt like spoken like so many women to their friends after a long night.

I said, don't do it again. I'm telling you. Gordon, we're the same gal. Go on. I mean, so one of the things that I think the international community right now is discussing is what forms of leverage they have over Russia. Now, one of the things that happened was that all of Russia's foreign currency assets were seized and now you might have read that the interest is now being used to finance Ukraine. And the reason, besides the fact that it would be illegal, to avoid confiscating the currency reserves

themselves is to essentially have a bargaining chip. Okay, great. Thank you so much for your questions and thank you to Julia Lakin everyone. Darren, I expect that paper handed in by Friday, yeah? Good man. All right. This has been TLDR, which as you know means too long didn't read. We will be here for the next four weeks. So all that's left for me to say is BRB, TTYL and LYSM. See you next time.

TLDR was written and hosted by Catherine Beohart with Gareth Gwynn, Sunil Patel and Dr Julia Lakin. It was also written by Madeline Brettingham, Sarah Campbell and Georgie Flynn. The producers were Victoria Lloyd and Lindsay Fenner. It was a mighty funny production for BBC Radio 4. Hello, I'm Brian Cox. And I'm Robin Ince and we are back with a new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. Robin, in 15 seconds or less, can you sum up the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. Robin, in 15 seconds or less can you sum up the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage? Yes I can.

Do you want to learn how to win at every single board game you ever play including Monopoly and Cluedo? Do you want to know about alien life coming from Glastonbury? Do you want to know about the Wonder of Trees with Judi Dencham? And do you also want to know about the unexpected history of science with Rufus Hound and others at the Royal Society? How is it unexpected? I don't know which is why it's unexpected.

It's unexpected to me. It might not be to the listeners. The Infinite Monkey Cage. Listen first on BBC Sounds.