From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - America Has A Moral Obligation To Lead

Episode Date: March 17, 2022

This week, Sean and Rachel sit down with former Acting Director of National Intelligence under President Donald Trump Ric Grenell to discuss the war in Ukraine.   Ric analyzes Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s speech to Congress, stating that Zelenskyy should have pointed out how Ukraine's conflict is different than Iraq or Afghanistan because most Americans are anti-war. Later, Ric states that he believes the U.S. has a moral obligation to lead the world, however instituting a no-fly zone should be Europe's responsibility.   Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm your host, Sean Duffy, along with my co-host for the podcast, but also my partner in life,

Rachel Campos Duffy. That's right. I'm so happy to be back because you know I was sick Last week and and you had You're so sick you're not talking to the mic I was so sick Last week and you filled in You had Jason Chaffetz Fill in for me Jason and Sean went solo

Yeah it was gone it was Not the 24 hour flu it was Like four days of yeah I was sick Mama's sick well I was sick and so then And it's good to be back. And then you and Jason just talked shop. It was like... Old school, back in the Congress.

Old reminiscing about your days back in the... Like in the cloakroom, drinking coffee and just philosophizing. There's a hot dog machine in there, too. There is a hot dog machine. All right. Well, I'm so excited to be here because, as you know, this has been... The last few weeks has been a massive news cycle. There's so much going on in the country but of course there's also this war in ukraine

that many people thought would never happen there were lots of speculation about whether russia you know was just amassing all those troops to scare us and uh and uh you know get something out of us but then he actually did invade and we have not stopped talking about it. And ever since this is, this whole thing started brewing, I've been wanting to talk to, I've been wanting to talk to Rick Ronell and we finally got him. He's the former acting director of national intelligence. The one person probably other than Zelensky and Putin himself that I want to

talk to, or maybe Angela Merkel, but I'd actually rather watch, I'd rather watch Rick talk to Angela. So Rick, welcome to the podcast again. Sean and Rachel, you know, I feel like I'm a regular now. You are.

We're going to make you a regular. So Zelensky just talked to Congress. This war doesn't look like it's going as well as the Russians thought. Zelensky's desperate. He needs the weapons. Just give us your lowdown of what's going on. Because Rick, I mean, he came in with a mission, right? He wanted to inspire America, number one, to enforce a no flies on, which it doesn't appear that that's going anywhere. But also he's asking for the MiGs and he's asking for armaments. What was your take on his speech? How effective was he? So, you know, first of all, I think we start with, you know, my heart is breaking for all of the stories we're seeing in Ukraine. I mean, people, just regular people being displaced and their

homes destroyed and their livelihoods destroyed. You can't watch this and not have an emotional reaction. But I think that when you have Zelensky speaking to all of the Congress, I watched his speech closely. And from my perspective, obviously, he can't do everything, he's got to pick and choose who the audience is. And it seemed clear to me that the audience was the American people. And what he tried to do is to say, you know, you remember Pearl Harbor, you remember 9-11, you remember, you know, Martin Luther King Jr.'s words of encouragement and vision. And that whole emotionalism was not meant for, I think, legislators, maybe a little bit of it. But he really decided to speak to the American

people. And that's where I think that he didn't do a great job. Because if you understand the American people right now, they don't want to go to war. They don't want to be a globalist. They love America first policies. These are popular policies. And if you're going to speak to the American people, then I think you've got to create a discussion as to why Ukraine is different than Iraq and Afghanistan. That's a very interesting point. Go a little further on that. You know, after 20 years, Americans are tired of war and the cost of war. You look at how much it costs for Iraq and Afghanistan. And I think that we have to be a healthy society where we look back and say that was a really high price, too high of a price to just walk away and say little girls got to go to school for a little while. I believe that if the American media descended upon the Congo,

that we would be outraged with the stories of destruction and heartbreak in the Congo. And that can't be our criteria for our foreign policy anymore. I also feel very strongly that, you know, I spent eight years at the UN and I know the UN programs intimately. We spend, Americans spend billions of dollars. We're the number one funder of the UN. And yet in this entire tragedy and crisis in Ukraine, we're not even talking about the UN. Where is the UN?

Where is their programs? Where's our money that's going there, that's supposed to go for these programs? I think that Americans want to see a smarter foreign policy. They want to see a tougher diplomacy before we immediately go to military action. I'm not saying America shouldn't lead, to military action. I'm not saying America shouldn't lead, because I think we have a moral obligation to lead. But we have slipped into this idea, official Washington tells us that leading is only through boots on the ground or military reactions. And that's super limiting. And as a diplomat, somebody who's been at the State Department for 11 years, I've never seen the State Department shoved aside so fast like it was with Ukraine. I mean, there were a whole bunch of diplomacy with muscle options to use sanctions. Let's remember this, the the Merkel government, and we could do a whole show on Merkelism because I think Merkelism made Europe less safe.

And Merkelism really pulled Germany into this Switzerland foreign policy where they just wanted to sell BMWs in Beijing and Tehran and Moscow. And they didn't really care about human rights or the Western style policies that we that we think of with the rule of law. But we have to be very clear that the Trump administration had sanctions on Putin's Russian pipeline. And those sanctions meant that the pipeline wasn't going to be working. The cash was going to be limited. And as soon as Biden came in, Merkel went to Biden and said, drop the sanctions. And because Joe Biden values and maximizes consensus with the Europeans, the Senate Democrats, the Merkel government and the Biden government all worked together to drop sanctions on the pipeline. And if you remember, there was two on Nord Stream two. And remember, their excuse was, well, we don't want to piss off Putin and start a war. Right. Well, so let's let's talk about that, because, I mean, I think there's I want to look I want to look back in a second but I want to look at the present and

we always, Rachel and I talk about this we need to live in reality not the world that we wish we lived in but the world that we actually live in and to that point the American people their heart strings have been pulled. The media has shown pictures and again Putin is a thug. He invades

what appears to be a peaceful nation. That's, for the most part, democratic. You may push back on me on that. A little bit, I will. Right, I know, exactly. I can't wait for him to push back on that. So we're talking about missiles.

We're talking about drones. We're talking about do MiGs come in or not, the no-fly zone. We're talking about do MiGs come in or not, the no-fly zone. Rick Grinnell, if he is advising the president, what is the right balance here to give Ukraine the tools to fight, but also doesn't put our young men and women in harm's way in Ukraine? And how do we not inflame Russia and bring us into the conflict? Well, first of all, let's start with a couple of things. Europe is in panic right now. I was just there about six days ago, and I'm going back in a couple of weeks. And the reality is that Europe is very concerned about this war. And

part of the America First doctrine is not just bringing our troops home and putting America first, but it's getting our allies to step up and do more. And I think now is the time for Europe to do more. This is Europe. This is their backyard. Their policy cannot be where are the Americans? That can't be a policy of Europe. They're very wealthy. The Germans have a budget surplus, remember. And so I think that there's still a lot more that we can do diplomatically. Anthony Blinken has a plane all to himself. And yet he's in Washington this week. How is that possible? How is he still have a great point? We should have diplomacy with muscle and the same crowd. You know, I have to I have to comment on Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut, who, you know, was so belligerent towards Trump ambassadors who were too tough and mean. And yet, look what we were able to accomplish. Sometimes diplomacy is tough.

Senator Murphy. Sometimes diplomacy is defending America and telling your allies that you have to do more. It's not going to dinner at a fancy place and deciding what's the middle ground. Because if that was just a scientific experiment of, OK, let's go in and you state your position and then we'll meet halfway in the middle, then anyone could do it. Right. But diplomacy is an art. It's all about the messenger. And how do you push to represent your side?

And I think that we've mocked tough diplomacy too much. So we've shoved diplomacy aside. We got to remember, Sean, that Ukraine is really the bridge between Russia and the West. It's not a Western country, so to speak, in all of the forms that we think of the West as being. It's heavily inundated with corruption and they've struggled with leader after leader that has not been able to tackle corruption. with leader after leader that has not been able to tackle corruption. And so I think what we have to do is remember that Ukraine is supposed to be that bridge between us and, you know, half the country, maybe not quite half, but a large portion of the country is pro-Russia. Right. And has Russian roots. And so I think that we just have to be smarter about and more realistic, as you say, about what can be accomplished in Ukraine.

I want Americans and American policymakers to understand that we cannot export our form of democracy overseas. We've tried that for 25 years. It doesn't work. And it's not going to work in Ukraine. And to paint Ukraine as this totally pure pro-West idea that just wants to stand up to Russia is, I think, oversimplifying. And it's what Hollywood does. And we can't do that. We've got to be really smart about what we're up against. I would say. But on that point, though, I mean, is it fair? I mean, Ukraine does not come at this with clean hands, is your point. But when you compare Ukraine to Russia, obviously Russia is the aggressor. Russia is the ones that are launching missiles into Ukraine. Right. I mean, we can we can look at maybe two imperfect actors and go,

well, those guys are the bad guys. Putin is the bad dude, right? I mean, that's... Absolutely. Morally, Ukraine is better. And I think if we're going to just look at this in terms of who's better, even though they're not having perfectly clean hands. I'm for Ukraine. And I absolutely want to help Ukraine, you know, move to the point where it's it is a greater democracy. And again, you can't look at what's happening to the Ukrainian people and not immediately feel for them and want to help them. I am not suggesting not helping them. But I'm saying is we have to be smart about how we help them. And Washington seems to be falling into the same old ways, which is sending the Pentagon and push the State Department aside. Yeah, proxy wars and all kinds of stuff that they they like to do over there at the Pentagon.

It's kind of interesting to me that you say that you've, you know, been back to Europe and they're in a panic. And there are a lot of people that go, well, how did we get here? Well, Donald Trump was warning a long time ago, you know, to the Europeans saying, you cannot be dependent on Russian oil like this. It's not going to make us safer. And he was trying to figure out ways that we could probably provide that. And that would have weakened Putin because he wouldn't have had all that money coming to him. Talk to me a little bit about what the Trump team would do in this situation, diplomatically speaking. Well, you know, I always start when I get asked this question, I start by saying I'm pissed off that we're in the position of terrible and really terrible choices.

Right. Yeah, we weren't. We wouldn't be in this situation with Trump. But let's say Trump inherited this. Yeah. Well, first of all, let's start with a little piece of good news in that the new German government under Olaf Scholz has dramatically changed the German policy. And by every calculation, even though the media are not saying this and they should start saying this, it is an admittance that Merkel was wrong and Trump was right. For the socialist government to come in and immediately flip the policy. Look, I was there. I heard every excuse in the book from Merkel about why they couldn't pay their 2% and why the pipeline was fine. Now, what's interesting is that she has the-

Rick, just quickly, is that changing because they've seen the light or is the people in Germany, are they actually pushing the leaders to go, listen, this is crazy. We have to change course. Who's leading who, the people or the politicians? Well, our media did a terrible job of really telling that story.

The people were, I would say, one third of Germans actually agreed with Trump. And the other thing that our media and our official Washington makes a mistake in is that they classify what Berlin and Paris does as what the position of Europe is. And that's not true. Berlin and Paris don't represent Europe as much as they think they do. If you listen to the European Parliament, the European Parliament actually passed a resolution saying don't build Nord Stream 2. It's not good for Europe. That, you know, the CNNs of the world didn't even notice when that happened because they were so enamored with Merkel that they just let her decide all of the European policy. But the Germans are struggling

to control Europe right now because people, the rest of the EU are biting back. Let's remember that under Merkel, under the 16 years of Merkel, the EU shrank with Brexit. The borders of Europe were rewritten twice by Putin, once in Crimea and now with his invasion in Ukraine, Merkelism did not work. Merkelism was not a strong policy towards Europe. It was an economic policy for Germany. And boy, did that work. They have a lot of money and they have a lot of car sales around the world.

But it's made Europe less safe. And Europeans are now waking up to that. And so for Olaf Scholz, who was the finance minister for for Chancellor Merkel, I got to know him pretty well, to come in, and the socialists take over and they flip the policy of the Conservative Party. Think about that. It was a conservative that didn't want to do the the two percent and wanted to get the russian pipeline and the socialists flipped that that 180 is unbelievable and joe biden and senate democrats haven't embraced the reality of what has flipped in germany yes you know it's so interesting because they say only two they only had to get to two percent i'm wondering like i

feel like the europeans are like those people who you go to dinner with and the bill comes and they go to the bathroom. This is their continent. Why are they only paying 2% for their... They're not paying 2%. They're not even paying that and they're bitching about that.

They should be paying a lot more. Hopefully that will happen. Here's what I have found interesting. Can I just add one quick thing to that, though? Because it's really important to note that, you know, organizations like the German Marshall Fund and all of these transatlantic groups really made excuses for the Germans and for Merkel. They allowed her to move away. And this is what I say, and this is an intellectual point, but it's an important point. Merkel moved the transatlantic alliance away from the West,

away from a Western facing alliance. And she just made it a kind of boring alliance. We're not Western facing. We don't value democracy, human rights and the rule of law anymore. We're just going to be in partnership. So she did that. And the German Marshall Fund, all of these transatlantic groups let her do that. And they made Europe less safe, even though they issued a lot of white papers about it. Yeah, that's a very interesting point. Wait right there. We'll have more of this conversation next.

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Put your seatbelt on, Rick. So I was one of those people that during the Iraq war, I bought into the whole thing. Right. I was like weapons of mass destruction. Well, well, until it was proven that they weren't there. But I believed that, you know, I trusted George Bush. I trusted trusted our government. Me too. The Intel community.

I remember pushing back on all the peaceniks on it and we have to fight for freedom and blah, blah, blah. And I actually believe that maybe these countries wanted some sort of, you know, Western form democracy. on all the peaceniks on it and we have to fight for freedom and blah blah blah and i actually believe that maybe these countries wanted some sort of you know western form democracy with american flags and roses i bought all of it and then i got egg on my face and so i was angry about that and one of the reasons i like trump was he was one of the republicans to very openly embrace and proudly say that was crap but we got sold that was a stupid war we shouldn't have done it and when he said it i mean it was like you know it was sending shockwaves to the republican party it gave all of us permission to say what we all thought and have this debate in

our party which i think has been really healthy for this party. And then it's been so healthy. And then the pandemic came over the pandemic. Our first Russia hoax. And I saw our intelligence community lie and destroy lives. Tell me that Hunter Biden's laptop was was Russian disinformation when it was totally true. Continue to cover for the Bidens and all their dirty deals all over, by the way, Russia, China, Ukraine. And then this whole pandemic, I was lied to from top to bottom from all these government bureaucracies. So now when they tell me, oh, and then they tell me that I should be really concerned about this because of freedom and Biden's so concerned about freedom and border integrities. I see what's happening at the border in our southern border. And then I see that he

told Justin Trudeau to crush the truckers. I see all of this stuff going on. And I'm like, I don't believe these people anymore. They don't have any of my trust. And then at the same time, I'm worried about a nuclear war because now I have nine kids. I have two young boys as well. And I have just not been able to get on board with this. I feel very suspicious. So I have to say, you know, not that I don't feel bad for the Ukrainians. I see the images. I can have hold those two thoughts at the same time. Of course, I'm just sitting here thinking the reason I fell in love with Rachel on MTV so long ago was because I saw a little bit of me in you and what I love now, I'm in California and so far away on this call like 20 plus years later, you and I have actually migrated together.

Our worldview is exactly the same in terms of I was with you, Rachel. I was that person who was at the UN. I was employed as the American spokesman at the UN to defend Iraq and Afghanistan and weapons. I was there inside the Security Council. I was the American talking about the bio labs and all of the weapons of mass destruction. And so what I learned is this, is that intelligence is an estimate. And I assumed early in my career that intelligence was an absolute. And what I've learned now is that policymakers have to question intelligence. One of the things that irked me the most when I became acting director of national intelligence is the chorus of the left saying, he's unqualified.

He's never worked in an intel agency. And I thought, you know, my first intelligence briefing was in 2001. I've had 20 years of receiving intelligence and using it. Who better to lead the intelligence agencies than the you laid out in Iraq and Afghanistan and the truckers and Russian collusion and all of the lies. But what I've realized is that and this is an important point for the audience. The majority of our intelligence officers are good people who do not want to be taken out of context. And when properly looked at all of their information, they do give caveats and warnings. The media dumb it down and partisans on both sides will selectively leak intelligence to serve their own purposes. That's what we have to stop because the majority of our intelligence officers are doing what we want them to do, which is we see

this, but I don't know about that. And then this contradicts it. And so there is an assessment that goes on from them that is in the gray area. And it's an estimate, not an absolute. But we on the outside are pretending like the government and especially intelligence agencies live in a world of absolutism. And that's just a manipulation that the politicians are doing to us. It doesn't exist. And so, you know, when I look at this to Rick, I when I was in Congress, I felt like I got really good information and probably not as good as you did, but I got good information. and probably not as good as you did, but I got good information. And you hear a debate that's happening right now about what did Trump do with Ukraine? How much money in regard to assets and missiles did he give?

Goes back to the impeachment phone call, right? What did Trump give? And then we flip on January 20th to Joe Biden, and I believe he gave $120 million worth of armaments, $20 million last summer and $100 million in November as massive troops were on the border. What did Trump provide to the Ukrainians during the four years? Well, this is an interesting conversation because what President Trump was trying to do is deal in the reality of Ukraine, which we've given a lot of aid over 20 years to Ukraine, and a lot of it has been misused. The corruption is rampant, and we've seen a lot of reports where our aid or what we provide is wasted or goes into the hands of elites.

And what President Trump was trying to do is to say, look, I want to make sure that this aid is actually going to be utilized and we should be able to put strings on our aid. It's our money and be able to say this is what we want to fund, or this is what we want to help with. And that's what President Trump was trying to do. But he was focused on arming the Ukrainians and the Ukraine government with substantive hardware, not with blankets, not with the extra stuff, but to sell hardware. And I've been in the Oval Office where President Trump would say, look, it's one of the exports that we can do. We can help our economy by selling other countries weaponry. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That is part of an America first strategy. I think that we should be selling the Ukrainians what they ask for. I don't believe that there's much of a distinction between a javelin and, you know, a fighter jet in terms of escalation.

Right. I agree. I think, you know, provide what they want, even doing training. But I don't want to shove the Europeans aside. And as Rachel rightly pointed out, you know, when the check comes, they usually go to the bathroom. And so what's going to happen is they are not going to step up and provide anything unless the Americans are hesitating and saying, you know, let's do Europe first. Let's patrol your own areas. That was part of the Trump philosophy, whether it's in Africa with Somalia and Kenya to say, you know, we're going to bring our troops home. Yes, there's a crisis in Somalia, but where's Kenya? Why don't you patrol your neighborhood? And that philosophy is something that I believe in and think that we've got to have more of. Yeah. And that also goes for the

migration. I'm so sick and tired of like, there's like some, you know, look at what happened in Afghanistan and like, where are all the Middle Eastern countries? Those people we've had Douglas Murray on this morning. And also last weekend, he studied a lot of this sort of refugee and migration stuff. And he's like, all the studies show that the migrants do better. The refugees do better when they're near their, near their own countries. You've said that too, Rick. So that's another example. Yeah, they want to be there. They want to be there. Right. So they can get back. And then it seems like there's all these politicians here who have some political incentive to bring them here because they think they might be future

voters. It's just there's so much dishonesty and there's so much money that's being wasted. And I see it all and it just makes me sick. But even on that point, Rick, I watch the news and we'll hear about a conflict between an American and a checkpoint or someone. And there was a video from Sky News from about 10 days ago. And even the reporters were like, we don't know who was shooting at us.

They didn't go check their IDs. They don't know who the actual shooters were, but obviously we assumed it was Russians, not Ukrainians. But I mean, I think that it's important that we also go, what truly are the facts? So we can actually accurately tell the American people when everyone says the same thing. That's when I get concerned when there's like group think Republicans, Democrats, liberals, That's when I get concerned when there's like group think Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives, everyone is group thinking this. That's when alarm bells go off. That's a good red flag moment. Yeah, we should probably go.

Hmm. Maybe there's something else going on here. And so, yeah, I don't know what you think about that. But because I think there's just a lot of a lot of information that's being fed to us. And again, seeking the truth. And what i also want to look at as a as a former elected official is what mistakes were made what could have been done earlier to not have brought us to this point and i mean as rachel and i have talked about it i thought well maybe we should have taken nato off the table um maybe i was a memo of understanding

rick in in november that biden gave the uk Ukrainians that brought them one step closer to to to NATO? And also, maybe we should have armed Ukraine to the teeth. We could have done it the Trump way. Make sure that they're they're actually going to go to, you know, you know, missiles and drones as opposed to, you know, patting the pockets of corrupt politicians. you know, patting the pockets of corrupt politicians. Yeah, I I'm going to say something that somebody will pull later on in a future confirmation for me and be like, see how dishonest he is. But but we're talking about reality. We're talking about living in the real world. And I'm going to say this as a as someone who is no longer in the U.S. government, right? I've sat in thousands of diplomatic meetings, and the reality is, and I'm just talking about the reality, sometimes when you're in a private meeting, you can say something, and then you don't say the same thing publicly, if you get my drift here. When talking about NATO membership, there is a way to

communicate what the reality is of a future membership. And you can say one thing privately, and then, look, the rule for me is I wouldn't publicly say that a country can't seek NATO membership. But I also have been saying publicly on NATO membership that we shouldn't be talking about adding any new NATO members when the current ones aren't paying their fair share. Yes. But also, Rick, Rachel and I had this conversation as well. I mean, if you're Putin and he's made this clear, he's like, if if NATO goes to Ukraine, right, if they're members. Yeah. And, you know, you bring in Western armaments, maybe Western missiles. Obviously, that's on my doorstep. And we all agree with self-determination. But if a diplomatic meeting in that diplomatic meeting, when he says that there are responses that you can make that you wouldn't say publicly.

Well, right. Because I look at it, we had a Cuban missile crisis over Russia trying to put missiles in Cuba right on our doorstep. I mean, people get pretty sensitive and I don't want to defend Putin, but I'm like, people get sensitive about, you know, perceived enemies putting, you know, missiles or armaments right on their border. Right. I mean, we did. So nobody's the stick it in the eye of Putin. Well, I shouldn't say no, but I certainly don't. The man's got nuclear weapons, right? We've got to be very smart. And this is what I loved about, you know, President Trump. I was in the Oval Office when he was putting tough sanctions on Putin. And he would say, look, I'm still going to try to be his friend because I'm going to try to get him to understand that the sanctions are to try to change behavior. If you change behavior, then we can have a different relationship

with you. But you, you know, you have to articulate that to the leaders. You can't just pretend like they're going to guess as to what our policy is because we put sanctions on them. No, talk to them. Tell them this is why we're putting sanctions on. And by the way, if your behavior changes, you can have a different relationship. We'll be right back with much more after this. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound

procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions. And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. So we've talked to a lot of generals over the last couple of weeks on Fox and Friends Weekend. I've been hosting all week here on Fox and Friends Weekday. And all of the generals at this point are saying that the next 10 days are going to be critical. What do you see happening? How do you think this plays out? And does it come to a peaceful conclusion? You know, I'm a diplomat, so I'm probably not the right person. No, I'm not asking you to give me a military assessment, Rick. Just give me your assessment of

how this, not how it plays out on the battlefield, but the geopolitical, what happens here? Who wins? Is there a deal to be made? I've been praying for a peaceful resolution. I think Putin has already met some of his goals of dividing NATO and making moves. He's in over his head in terms of what he thought he could do to finish the job. I fear that Putin is not going to stop until he takes out Zelensky and therefore create enough political chaos to install a more friendly government for him. Why do you say that NATO is, because what you hear all the time from the experts is that NATO is stronger than ever, that they are all united. As you said, many countries who were maybe even ambivalent about joining NATO are now like,

hey, I want to be part of this. Why do you say... Well, the question, they rushed to NATO, they rushed under the umbrella of NATO when there's a crisis, and Europe is in crisis. And I don't think Americans understand that the Europeans are afraid right now. I mean, my friends in Berlin are talking literally like this is about the Berlin airlift. Is that because they have PTSD from World War Two? It's like they still have that that memory. So still so fresh for them. Or do you really believe they are in danger? I think it's a little of both. I think there's no question that it's on their doorstep. I mean, as soon as you you get Poland involved, and the 3 million refugees going into Poland, you know, that immediately

sends the message to Germany because that's their neighbor, that they're right there. And so I think that the Europeans need to be pushed. We shouldn't rush into being the military leader, even the financial leader, when this is a European problem, and I'm not suggesting that we don't do anything. I am suggesting that we are smarter to not shove the Europeans aside, rush in, and take control of the situation. Part of my job as a diplomat is to get our allies to do more. And when there's a crisis in Europe, the Europeans need to be the leader. 100%. I agree with that. Do you think that there is real danger of, I mean, I was on air when we had a potential nuclear, you know, they said there was a nuclear alert. I mean, I kind of freaked out. Any danger of that? Or do you think with Putin?

Do you think that Putin? Do you think that's real? I think it's very real because he's a madman now. Something flipped. If you look at his speech, he's not the Putin of old. He didn't have rational arguments. He's lashing out. He's like a wounded animal and wounded animals do crazy things. That's what Sean says. Yeah. And that's why you always have to give people an out. That's probably your diplomatic side. But let people say face. Give them an out. You never want to corner an animal that has nuclear weapons. That's a bad outcome.

And so how do you... And Rachel has commented, why is... And maybe we don't see this, Rick. But the diplomatic side of this, are Putin and Biden talking? What kind of engagement are we having with russia that might be an important conversation to have to make sure that we don't escalate this where you know people misread things biden announced yesterday that he was going to go to nato in nine days nine days i know think about that i'm gonna go to nato in nine days putin's like great

i've got nine days um You know, this is so outrageous for me to see Anthony Blinken sitting in Washington, D.C. You know, he did some event yesterday on honoring women and equality and equity. And while those issues may be important right now, I think his priority is to get on a plane and to be all over European capitals asking the Europeans what they are going to do about a crisis in Europe. And he should be on that plane in Paris and Berlin and Warsaw. Why is he in Washington, D.C.? If we want to talk about America leading, we should not be talking about a no-fly zone when Anthony Blinken is sitting in Washington, D.C. when there's a crisis in Europe. Get on a plane and

start talking. And it's interesting, the Biden administration wants to sell all of us on how great Biden is doing, leading the world and leading NATO and bringing people together. But to your point, if you were that leader, you would be on Air Force One going over, not nine days from now, but going over today. And Blinken would be on a plane. He wouldn't be home. He would have been gone for the last two weeks and have no plan on coming home because he's engaging the world, leading.

And again, so I think they're selling us on one version of leadership. But the reality is, to your point, they're sitting at their desks in washington but it's this is a critical moment it's not just that zielinski you know was just giving a speech to cards but in the last day we had you know zielinski on camera saying i'm not going to pursue you know we're not going to pursue nato um there were some real concessions there's some real hope there's peace negotiations going on right now 12 miles away from poland right but this is a critical moment but also a critical moment in the potential for peace and so that that america wouldn't lead in that diplomatic effort to bring a closure to this war i feel like either they don't they don't understand that diplomacy is part of the job or they may be like

that, you know, they think maybe and I've heard I've heard people say I've heard Hillary Clinton say this, this will bleed them dry. We'll have this little, you know, have them keep fighting in in in Ukraine and this will weaken Russia. Is that even our government? Our government is big enough to be able to do more than one thing. And for me as a diplomat, 11 years at the State Department, I want to do diplomacy and let the military and the Pentagon people come up with options. The president then gets to decide when to stop doing diplomacy and when to transfer the file over to the Pentagon. But if I were Secretary of State, I would have the plane in Kiev. I would go and I

would bring in European leaders and I would have a meeting in Kiev. There is no possible way that the Russians are going to risk bombing the U.S. Secretary of State and European. We have three European leaders who decided to do that. But guess what? Antony Blinken was in Washington, D.C. Well, European leaders were going into Ukraine. It's outrageous that we've shoved diplomacy aside and we've just decided, official Washington has decided Ant Anthony Blinken is so weak that we're just going to let him sit in Washington, D.C. Sometimes I see Anthony Blinken and he looks scared to me. Like he looks like he's not confident in his role.

Like, do you get that sense? Yes. Yes. I know so many foreign service officers, career officials at the State Department who every single day tell me, I fear that a conservative, say to me yesterday, why are you even talking about Anthony Blinken? He is totally irrelevant to this. And I said, isn't that a problem? Right. Don't you think that because we've dismissed Anthony Blinken and that even the press corps is like, oh, we shouldn't worry about the secretary of state because he's really irrelevant to this whole situation. That burns me. I don't want to dismiss the State Department like that. No, not in a situation like this where, you know, if it goes to a military solution, it will be, it's dangerous. And this is one of these times where you're really glad

you have a State Department and you want your state department to take a lead and, and give great options to the white house and, and really bring about peace. I've tell you, Rick, I feel like I'm becoming a peacenik. Um, I've, I've turned,

I'm, I'm, I'm the Republican Cindy Sheehan. Now I feel like I just want to give, I just want to give peace a chance. I just think this is kind of scary. I have to tell you, it's,

it's so great having you on. I'm so grateful that you would make time for Sean and I to do our podcast. I hope we have you back. There's no one better on this topic than you. You're on Newsmax now. Tell our viewers how else they can see you. Well, if they come to Los Angeles, they can see me, but I'm on Newsmax and traveling the country actually helping out a lot of our Senate and House candidates. Can I just give one a shout out? Do you know Jesse Jensen in running for Congress in Seattle? Because the reality is, is that Jesse ran last time and can win. This needs a little help. What area is this?

and can win. This needs a little help. What area is this? Seattle. And he's a really great guy. He's a vet. He served in, I can't remember if it's Iraq or Afghanistan, but he's a great guy. Check him out. Jesse Jensen in the state of Washington. You know, a lot of people concentrate on East Coast and Midwestern candidates and they forget about the West. Sometimes we forget they can actually win out West. They can actually win out West. That's awesome. So when are you heading over to Europe? I will be there for the elections in Serbia are April 3rd.

So I'll head over April 1st. So when you go to Serbia to do something like that, you're just going as an observer? You just want to see how it all goes down? Yeah, I really care about the Balkans. I don't think anyone in the Biden administration is doing much on the Balkans. And the Trump administration had such success negotiating for economic agreements. The people of the Balkans love President Trump and America. And it's important to be an election observer. And Serbia is a country that we need to continue pushing to a better relationship with America. Well, Rick, I can't thank you enough.

I hope that in the very near future that I know you're helping a lot of candidates around the country. I hope you become one of those candidates. Is there a possibility in that? Are you wishing me to run for public office? How dare you? Is that is there a possibility in that? Are you wishing me to run for public office? I actually I would love one day and not just for some state office that I can't vote for in California. My hope is that it will be something national that I that one day I will I will vote for Rick Grinnell, maybe even president. I'm not kidding. I think you're amazing. I think that you were you you you're somebody who I think a lot of people in the Republican Party can relate to because you're so common sense. And I know that it wasn't an easy transition to go from Bush world to Trump world.

And it was a very intellectual and thoughtful transition. I think people really relate relate to what you did. Well, thank you so much. Always great to be here. We've enjoyed that conversation. If you did too, let us know. Subscribe, rate, and review this podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you download podcasts.

We hope to see you around the kitchen table next week. This is Jimmy Fallon, inviting you to join me for Fox Across America, where we'll discuss every single one of the Democrats' dumb ideas. Just kidding. It's only a three-hour show. Listen live at noon Eastern or get the podcast at foxacrossamerica.com.