From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - Father Frank Pavone Explains Bishop Strickland’s Expulsion & What It Means For The Catholic Church

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

On November 11th, Bishop Joseph Strickland was removed from his position as the Bishop of the Diocese of Tyler, Texas.  Laicized Catholic Priest Frank Pavone joins to discuss the removal of Bishop Strickland from his post and the ideological differences that led to his own removal.  Father Pavone details his perspective on how the Catholic church should address political issues and why Roman leadership has targeted Conservative priests. Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News.

Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm Sean Duffy along with my co-host of the podcast, my partner in life, and my wife, Rachel Campos Duffy. Well, it's great to be back and the church has been rocked by several things lately. When we say the church, we mean the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has been rocked by a lot of news lately. has been rocked by a lot of news lately. You know, one of the first things was that Father Frank Provence was basically defrocked. He is the national director of Priests for Life. And then on the heels of that, we had Bishop Strickland in Tyler, Texas. And so we decided we're going to bring in... Relieved of his duties. Yeah, relieved of his duties. And we're going to bring in um his duties yeah relieved of his duties and we're going to bring in father provone um i'm going to still call him father provone um because he is a priest for life um no pun intended and um we're going to bring him in to help us break down what happened

um with father strickland maybe how it relates to what's happening to him and and basically what's going on in the church father Father Pavon, welcome. Sean and Rachel, it is great to be with you. Thanks for having me and for this important discussion. And thanks for all the work you do, by the way. It's a joy and an encouragement to see everything that you're continuing to do. Thank you. Thank you. So, Father, what's going on in the church?

Can you break down what's going on in the church? What's happened to you, to Bishop Strickland? And again, a lot of Catholics, Rachel and I included, there's a lot of confusion about what's taking place. And I don't know if you can shed some light on that, if you've got some insights for us. Well, frankly, there is confusion among us, too. When I say us, myself, Bishop Strickland, with whom I've been speaking a lot in recent days, and many others who are less well-known but not less targeted. the church we are seeing the weaponization of government now we know what that means these days in the civil arena i was just at the premiere showing of the uh the film police state that uh our friends dinesh d'Souza and dan bongino put together and if anyone has seen that and i hope

i hope everybody sees that police state film.net uh shows the weaponization of government in a summary fashion of the things we've been seeing over recent years especially against president trump and his and his team to sum this up the best way i can both in terms of the modus operandi and in terms of the types of ideologies that they are confronting the same thing that we see with the weaponization of government is happening with the governance of the Catholic Church. That's it in a nutshell, that you have otherwise legitimate authorities, otherwise legitimate procedures being used against ideological opponents, or as Bongino always summarizes it,

you know, in our justice system, it's supposed to be you go after a crime in search of a person. What's happening instead is they're going after people in search of a crime, or pretending or acting as if they had committed a crime. It's happening within the Catholic Church. Now, why? are acting as if they had committed a crime. It's happening within the Catholic Church. Now, why? The ideological divide is very, very clear. There are those of us who, I would say it this way, most priests, most clergy, most bishops are, in fact, teaching the faith, upholding the faith the way it's been handed down to us and the way that they're supposed to. But some of us, handed down to us in the way that they're supposed to. But some of us in doing that are more out front confronting the culture and confronting the political world. Both Bishop Strickland and I have been very explicit, for example, in our criticism of the

Biden administration and of the Democrat Party for multiple reasons, the central among which is their adherence to unlimited abortion. And there are there are folks in the church that are very uncomfortable with that because they have alliances with the Democrats and and they simply want to silence our voices. That's what's going on. I'm going to take so. So let me just say I'm going to read out a tweet that was put out by Bishop Strickland going on. I'm going to take so. So let me just say I'm going to read out a tweet that was put out by Bishop Strickland. And then I'm going to give you a little bit of a devil's advocate. And then you can position of why they might have relieved them in that regard. OK, so they on May 12th on Bishop Joseph Strickland wrote, I believe, on Twitter,

I believe Pope Francis is the pope, but it is time for me to say that I reject his program of undermining the deposit of faith. Follow Jesus. Okay, so some people might say, also he, Bishop Strickland himself, says that he believes the fact that he is not sort of crushing or or or closing down um traditional latin mass parishes and and and and that that that is also part of it because pope francis has come out and said he doesn't want that that you know it's it's it's part of the old world the old catholic church and he doesn't want any part of that so okay, okay. So, so some people say that, that that's what, why Bishop Strickland was let go. Um, regarding what you just said, as devil's advocate, some people might say, well, the church shouldn't be political. The church

should be about Jesus Christ. It's not the job of the church to call out, by the way, I disagree with this, but I'm telling you their position. Um and Bishop Strickland are by calling out and being more direct and naming names, specifically Joe Biden and his pro-abortion policies, Joe Biden being a Catholic himself, supposedly, that that's not the right way to do this, that it's alienating, it's not uniting the Catholic and Christian community. Yes, let's talk about the church and politics, first of all, because that's an important point that you raise. Many people will say, and because there's a grain of truth to that, that, hey, the church is not a political party. Jesus established it to give witness to the kingdom of God, not to any particular form of government or party here on earth. That in and of itself is true.

The church has a spiritual mission, not a political mission. And most of the time, throughout most of history, taking a neutral stand, for example, on different policy proposals from different political parties is entirely correct of a stance for the church to take. We ask people to study the Word of God and then apply the Word of God in all their decisions, including their voting decisions. Why would we be getting so explicit at this point of time in American history, because the political divide has gone beyond policy differences and has gone to the level of principle. In other words, when you talk about the taking of innocent human life, the policy is the principle. In other words, the principle is you can never

take an innocent human life, period. There's no exceptions to that. And we've seen history stained with the mistakes when we've broken that principle, genocides, Holocaust, etc., and abortion. take policy plan A or policy plan B. Plenty of things fall under that category. But here we're talking about non-negotiable principles. Here we're talking about the very foundation of morality. And therefore, there's no room for neutrality. And that's where we're at. You look, for example, also at the unprecedented attack on marriage, even on gender. You know, I always say, Rachel and Sean, that, you know, maybe we're at the point today where we can't say a man is a man or a woman is a woman, because for 50 years, we've been saying a baby is not a baby. Right. You deny basic biology, you deny basic reality, and you're in a realm now that's far beyond and far more consequential than policy differences. You're attacking the very idea of truth itself, the very idea of morality itself. When you have a political party that's

doing that, that cannot be tolerated in any way, shape, or form. There's no longer any such thing as neutrality. That has to be opposed vigorously. And unless we call it out by name, there are going to be many people in the church and in society who don't yet see the problem. And that's why we're teaching and speaking the way that we are right now. You know, Father, as you were saying that, I'm thinking about there's a purview of the church, and there's a purview of the state. And if you think of them as their own two separate bubbles, that's great. And so, obviously, the church probably shouldn't talk about tax policy. Are rates too high? Are they too low? You know, they probably shouldn't talk about the speed limit, you know. But when the politics of the state cross over into the purview

of the church, and we're talking about life, well, now all of a sudden you've crossed into the church's domain. You're talking about, are we going to transition, genitally mutilate little children? You've crossed into the church's domain. And of course, if the church doesn't talk about it, you're almost complicit in the bad acts of the state. And you have a moral obligation to stand up and go, hold up. You know what? This is our space. And we know there's of the state. And you have a moral obligation to stand up and go, hold up. You know what? This is our space. And we know there's right and wrong.

And we have to call out whether you say it's a genocide, the genital mutilation, the death of onboard babies that don't have voices. That is our role. That's our job to talk about right and wrong in the societies and culture in which we live. And here's what frustrates me. In Rome, they have a problem with that. They have a problem with you speaking about fundamental issues and beliefs of the church, and they go, for that, you can get defrocked. You can get fired for actually speaking the true teachings of the church.

inspired for actually speaking the true teachings of the church. You know, some people find this incredible. And, you know, let's address head on what some people will say about me, about Bishop Strickland, about others who have been in these situations. They'll say, oh, come on, this can't be the reason. You guys must have done something wrong. There must be something else going on. And what I say to those people very directly, and I've done all kinds of broadcasts on this, where I've taken on a table a stack this high of documentation I have, over the last 21 years, I've been battling this with some of the bishops.

Some, I emphasize, because most have been strongly supportive of us, including Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict, and even Pope Francis at the beginning of the spot, personally encouraged me and my work. But we've been battling for 21 years against certain bishops who have tried to restrict, silence, and sideline me, and we know what those reasons are, and we've brought it all out into the open. They said to me, for example, oh, you're too aggressive on abortion, or you're putting too much emphasis, or you got to talk about other issues, or you can't be so political, or we don't want you supporting President Trump. They said, we know all the

different things that have been their concerns. So what amazed me, you know, last year when they made this whole thing, a public announcement, and they took this action against me, you know, last year when they made this whole thing a public announcement and they took this action against me, you got certain Catholic commentators who I don't know where they think they come from, but they come out and they start writing articles as if they know better than I do what I've just been through. It's amazing how, and I think many of these folks are simply trying to defend the, frankly, wimpy way in which the church has been addressing some of these cultural issues. And it's time for that to stop. We'll have more of this conversation after this. From the Fox News Podcast Network. I'm Ben Domenech, Fox News contributor and editor of the Transom dot com daily newsletter. And I'm inviting you to join a conversation every week. It's the Ben Domenech podcast. Subscribe and listen now by going to Fox News podcast dot com. Yeah, you know, there are some other parallels between, you know, this cancel culture and some

of the things that we're seeing sort of on the secular side. The other side is that you're getting canceled and fired and Bishop Strickland, who by all accounts, I know lots of people who know him and say he's just such a holy good man. And they're just so shocked by what happened. But also that you have Father Martin, you know, a Marxist. He's totally, you know, out with his, you know, support for LGBTQ and against traditional marriage and all this kind of stuff. And he's fine. He's actually celebrated. I mean, we're seeing that parallel as well. I guess my I'm curious what happened to you, what happened to Strickland? What is how is that being received by other priests and bishops? Are they coming out and supporting you, or are they being more silenced?

And I'm talking about the American church. So these orders are coming from Rome. Rome sent their investigators to you, sent their investigators to Strickland. As far as I can tell on either of you, and I've looked into it, I see nothing. They haven't come forward and said that there was anything. So they're supposedly holding onto this evidence, but if they had something, I think they would put it out there. So there's nothing there. But where's the outrage from the Catholic Bishops Council? Where's the outreach from some of our celebrity priests and bishops, whether it's Dolan or, you know, others who we see on the Internet to, you know, have a bigger platform that they could maybe come out and support you to. Let me reference a book that that I think folks who are interested in this will find helpful to to frame the answer to your question.

It was written by the former communications director of the United States Bishops Conference, a man by the name of Russell Shaw. And Russell wrote this book not too many years ago. It's called Nothing to Hide. Communications, secrecy and communion within the Catholic Church is the subtitle. Nothing to hide. nothing to hide. And he puts his finger on what part of the problem is here, that there is an unwillingness within the hierarchy of the church to be transparent and accountable to the people they govern. Now, we believe, I believe to this day and vigorously defend the church, the way the Lord Jesus structured the church, the reality of the authority of the

bishops and successors of the apostles. This is part of our faith, and I have the deepest respect for that. But that doesn't give them a license to act like dictators. You know, Jesus himself said it. He said, you know, among the Gentiles, those who are in authority make their authority felt, right? They lord it over people. They act like kings. And he said, it's not supposed to be that way with you. You're supposed to serve. So those in authority in the church have a call to serve. And part of that seems to me is that, you know, when you make a decision, you give a reason for the decision. I mean, we're all equal in Christ. We're all equal by our common human dignity and by our baptismal dignity.

We're all equal. We're all brothers and sisters. Some of our brothers and sisters have more authority in the church than others, but that doesn't take away the brother and sister obligation. Be open, be transparent, give a reason for your decisions to the extent that you can do so without transparent. Give a reason for your decisions to the extent that you can do so without violating someone's privacy, but give a reason. And this is terribly lacking. And again, it's not simply my opinion. Russell Shaw documents this and documents the reasons why this is unhealthy for the church. And I think, Rachel, by your question there, you're putting your finger on this problem. If there were a clear reason by which, a clear way in which Bishop Strickland violated the canonical norms of the church,

if there were some clear thing that I did wrong, you know, they said to me last year when they announced this, he said, oh, he's guilty of blasphemous social communications. I don't know what in the world they're talking about. I've committed a lot of sins in my life, but I've never committed blasphemy. And it's like, why don't you just tell us what you're talking about? I can tell you they were not happy with some communications I made criticizing the Democrat Party, but that goes back to our previous point, that they're the ones taking sides politically. But it's like, tell us exactly what you're talking about. The fact that they're not doing that is a tremendous disservice, and it doesn't help people understand

situations like this. So, Father, I want to take you back 20 years. 20 years ago, the things that you're saying and Bishop Strickland is saying, the church would not have a problem. The church probably would have fully agreed with what you were saying. 20 years ago in America, we agreed that little boys were little boys, little girls were little girls. We agreed that marriage was between a man and a woman. And most of us agreed that we probably shouldn't abort children. I think it was even Hillary Clinton said abortion should be rare, safe and legal. Now we're going to come forward 20 years and we don't want to put a gender on a birth certificate because we're not quite sure what the what the little child is going to be.

They're going to decide later whether they're a boy or a girl. Marriage is now open to all kinds of different forms. And there's a fight now with the left to say abortion should be done all the way up to the point of birth. And by the way, this is a great form of birth control is actually aborting your child. And I always thought the church was a rock, that what you believed 20 years ago, what you can say 20 years ago, you should be able to say today, because we don't move with the winds in the church. We go back 2,000 years. And it's interesting that the church is almost moving like the political structure has moved in the last 20 years. And so it begs the question, what is the philosophy of Roe? And so it begs the question, what is the philosophy of Roe?

Why would they—for you and Strickland and others, as you've mentioned, that you're saying these traditional things that we've always believed in the church, that you're not being reprimanded. What does that say about their view on these issues? Has the church now said, yes, we are supportive of the transgender community and genital mutilation. We are supportive of some abortions. We are supportive of open marriage. What is the role? What is the position of the church when they'll the Clinton Foundation, where, you know, the entire foundation is basically like about abortion and population control. So, OK, go ahead. I'm sorry.

I'm confused that's the genesis of my question you know this is this is a moment in the church when when catholics can really uh learn what we've always talked about the limits of the papacy hope as a man is a sinner and when we talk about infallibility or authority of the pope we're not talking about everything that comes out of his mouth or every action that he commits now when you think about it we've been spoiled in our lifetime. We've mostly, most of our years on earth, we've had saints, literally canonized saints as Pope. John XXIII has been canonized. His successor, Paul VI. John Paul II, these are saints now. And it's like, Paul II, these are saints now. And it's like, wow, we've been spoiled. But plenty of times throughout history, there has been tremendous confusion. There have been times when most of the bishops have, you know, in the early church, there was a period where most of the bishops were

denying the divinity of Christ. So we've been through some pretty confusing times. And now it's kind of a reminder that, hey, you know, the Pope really isn't always so effective at what he's supposed to be doing is confirming people in the faith. We're supposed to come away, not only from the Pope, but from our bishops and from our priests. We're supposed to be coming away from them with a big exclamation point in our minds, like we're jumping up and down. Yeah, I know the faith and I'm ready to proclaim it. And instead, we're coming away with question marks in our mind. That means they're failing. They're failing in their jobs and they're going to fail. Where's our safety? Where's our anchor?

Where's our clarity in all of this? Six simple words that I tell people, keep your eyes on these six words as we go through this storm. And those words are, what the church has always taught. Now, when you look at that, it's a body of teaching. This is what Bishop Strickland keeps referring to as the deposit of faith. And that's a phrase that comes to us from the Bible itself. What the church has always taught was handed on from Jesus and the apostles. That's what we keep our eyes on. The good news is the Pope doesn't have any more of that than you and I do. He doesn't have any more books of the Bible or chapters of the Catechism. The whole faith has been laid out openly for us all to know and understand. And that's our safety

net. It's right there. That's our anchor, what the church has always taught. He's responsible to teach that. Now, he himself, is it because he doesn't believe some of it or just because he's responsible to teach that now he he himself is it because he doesn't believe some of it or just because he's a bad communicator or just because he he wants to in some kind of of marxist dialectic create you know dispute within the church in order to come to an adherence to the truth i don't know i don't know what's going on in his mind and heart. I do know he's got some pretty bad advisors around him. But whatever it is, whatever it is, we can be confused about what the Pope says. We never have to be confused about what the faith says. And that's our safety. Listen, I mean, if you take anything away from this podcast and this conversation with you, I hope that's what people take away. But there are still so many lingering questions. And you didn't answer my question

about where the other bishops are. Are you getting support from, say, Cardinal Dolan, a very important voice in the American Catholic Conference? Are you getting support, for example, you know, from just in general, the Bishops conference, I mean, where do they stand? Whether you're, you know, ideologically, you know, leaning left or right, the idea that you could be thrown out just for, you know, adhering vocally and publicly to the teachings of the church must be disconcerting and unnerving for a lot of bishops and priests. lot of bishops and priests yeah i get a lot of support from priests and bishops privately not so much publicly because they think that they'll get in trouble and and this is this is the dynamic so disappointing father it's just it's it's terrible um where i get the overwhelming support is from people all around the country

who say exactly what you said at the outset of the podcast. I am always going to call you father. And the reason they say that is not only the Catholic teaching that once you're a priest, you're always a priest forever, but whether they tell you that you can minister like that or not. But there's another reason. It's relationship. I've been a priest for 35 years. I just had my anniversary recently. And people are called Father because they give life. And we give life by the preaching of the Word, by the administration of the sacraments. Millions and millions of lay people have experienced that through my ministry with Priests for Life, which, by the way, I'm able to continue. I haven't lost my job, and that's the difference in my case, because Priests for Life has always been

independently governed and financed, so my board is with me 100%, so I'm continuing to do that work. But people support us, A, because we're continuing to do the work, and B, because Father, for them, because we're continuing to do the work, and B, because Father, for them, represents a relationship that they have experienced, and that means more to them than a piece of paper coming from the desk of the Pope. And I think that's really the answer to the question is, is the support out there? Yes, it is, and it would be nice if some of the clergy were a little bit more courageous in expressing it. We'll have more of this conversation after this. What happens if you have priests for life? What happens to Bishop Strickland?

What will happen to him? Well, he actually, because he remains a bishop, they haven't taken that title away from him or his right to exercise ministry, he can ally himself or involve himself with any Catholic ministry that he wants to. And I suspect he will do exactly that. In other words, continue to go around and speak at conferences. He and I were just speaking together at a Divine Mercy conference. He and I were just speaking together at a Divine Mercy conference.

He'll continue to be on the speaking circuit and write and post on social media and do whatever kind of pastoral ministry he's invited to do. I think that's going to continue pretty strong for him. And in my case, it's the non-sacramental ministry. It's doing what we're doing now, broadcasting and writing and strategizing and helping pro-life groups to make progress in this big battle against abortion. else right thereafter as in society and in a culture um so i guess again the most important point is right that the pope is the pope is a man um and the pope has the same teachings um in books that we all have as well and we can all read um and i wonder though as and again i And I wonder, though, as—and again, I think Baroom is a very powerful and important voice in the world. And I wonder, you know, if we think of the movement that the Church has made over this papacy, what hope do we have that we get back to some of the better norms and standards, maybe of a JP2? Is it so changed that, you know, the next pope is going to be in the vein of Francis or is, and again, we'll say the Holy Spirit works, you know, with cardinals as they pick

the next pope, but I also hear there's a lot of politics that happen in there as well. Can I just say for those who are not Catholic to understand that the Pope is picked by, I mean, the Pope is selected by cardinals who we pray are inspired by the Holy Spirit. There's been a lot of changes of cardinals. I mean, that's one of the things that the Pope selects the next cardinal. He's replaced some with some that are more aligned with himself. And then as others have died off, he's replaced those with people, obviously, aligned. And that's a natural thing. I mean, you saw conservatives,

more conservative-leaning popes doing the same. So where is the, I guess, where is that community of cardinals right now? We're not wishing death on Pope Francis, of course, but when his papacy ends and all things end, I, I, I'm curious about Sean's question as well. What, what do we have to look forward to here as lay, as lay people? Well, the, the, the, the problems that we're facing and that we're discussing now in the

church are so obvious to everyone that similar discussions to what we're having now are taking place among cardinals. And the good thing is that the fact that cardinals, so many cardinals, have been appointed by Pope Francis does not necessarily translate into, though they think the same way that he does. He, in fact, has chosen a lot of men to be cardinals from out-of-the-way places, smaller countries, places where you usually don't have cardinals appointed. And many of these smaller out-of-the-way countries are, in fact, more conservative. So we may have a situation where when you combine that

with the fact that many do realize that there's got to be some mid-course correction made here, I have a tremendous amount of hope that the next conclave is going to give us a pope who, he may not be a John Paul II, but he's going to bring things, reign things in a little bit. The other good thing to keep in mind, again, part of the safety valve here is the Pope has not changed, nor is he able to change, official Catholic teaching on matters that the church has settled on, or like those six words I mentioned, what the church has always taught. There's no way that he can change that. So that is an effort doomed to failure. If people think, including, again, we can't read his mind, but including the Pope himself, if anyone were to think, I'm going to take one of these truths that

the church has always believed and actually change it as official teaching, that's doomed to failure. Because even if he tried to do that, even if he issued some documents saying that, it's the people, the church is the people of God. They are hierarchically governed, but they are the people of God. They will reject that. They will reject that, and the church will move forward sometimes, you know, without predominantly the help of the clergy, but more with the help of the laity, and we will preserve the faith one way or the other. But this is certainly, again, it's a moment in the church that most of us have never experienced before, because, like I say,

we've grown up under saints. So you think back to, we mentioned J.P. to John Paul II several times, and, you know, you think of John Paul II, you think of Margaret That we mentioned JP to John Paul II several times, and you think of John Paul II, you think of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, and the work those three did to undermine communism that offered more freedom and liberty for the human heart, and again, a lot of people to practice their faith more freely, which communism was opposed to, right? The faith is an enemy of communism. And we're in trying times right now, Father. And again, there is a lane for the church and there is a lane for politics.

And we've talked about when those lanes cross, but I think it's so important in these trying times, in these confusing times, you know, in culture, that the church is speaking crisply and clearly about humanity and about life and about the true teachings of the church, bringing clarity to a confused, you know, I think world, but especially our culture, and that we don't have that is so sad at this point. But again, if we did have it, I think a lot more people might be inspired to, again, think more crisply about what's happening in politics today, whether it's, and again, whether it's on crime or abortion or transgenderism or marriage or abortion, there's like so many things. Freedom itself. Freedom itself, Father, yeah. And I'm like, the church has been a voice for a free human heart. And I feel like it's gone

silent or at least it's a pretty shady gray. And it really failed in such a public way during COVID, you know, when they agreed to shut down our churches. And so many, again, we talked about the cowardice of the bishops, the cowardice of so many just everyday priests. If the priests had gotten together, maybe we would have been great with the leadership of the bishops to say, you know, I'm not saying in the first two weeks I get it. Everyone was scared. But after that, it was pretty obvious. And what we needed was spiritual food and we couldn't get it. We Catholics in particular, the Eucharist, we needed the Eucharist more than ever during that time. And our church failed us. And it started right from Pope Francis, who did nothing to step into that gap and took orders from the government and became the first example of submission. And so I look at this moment we're in and I share so many of the concerns that we've talked about here.

who have said, I'm done. I want to join the Orthodox church or I'm, I, I can't be part of this, you know, socialist, globalist, you know, Pope papacy. I have to divorce myself from this. And then I saw an interview with our friend, Raymond Arroyo. And, um, it was, it was, it's exactly what I needed to hear. Um, and he said, listen, the church is our mother. And if your mom is getting, you know, intruders come in and they're beating her up, you don't just leave. You have to stay and you have to defend your mother, the church. And I think it was it was a beautiful thing for me to hear. I needed to hear that. interesting because so many father of the real church-going Catholics are more orthodox, more true to the teachings of the Bible and the church and the traditions of the church.

I mean, there's some hope in that as well, right? There is. And what you're saying, first of all, reminds me of, there's a passage in Isaiah, which one of the translations of which is this, unless you stand firm in faith, you will not stand at all. In other words, the clarity of the faith, like you were saying, Sean, a crisp, clear, evangelical proclamation of the truth is so needed, not just for the survival of our spiritual and religious lives, is so needed, not just for the survival of our spiritual and religious lives, but for our survival, period.

Because if we start down this road, we already have started down this road, where we, to the extent that we forget the Creator, then the creation doesn't make any sense anymore, human life loses, we lose our reverence and our understanding. We end up destroying ourselves. We end up enslaving ourselves. We end up unable to resist this onslaught of tyranny that we are experiencing now in America and around the world. This globalism that is an enemy of freedom, this reassertion of Marxism, it's all around us. It's as clear as can be.

It's well documented. And it's the battle of our times. So we have got to say, look, unless we can strengthen our faith, we're not going to survive at all as a nation or as humanity. That's point number one. Point number two is then, well, how do we move forward? People who say, well, I'm going to leave the faith or leave the church, they're not going to find the battle any less intense wherever else they go. It's like St. Peter saying to Jesus, well, Lord, to whom shall we go?

You have the words of eternal life. We believe that the church was established by Jesus. We have the Eucharist. We have the, yeah, sure. You know, there's an image of that expressing the church down through the centuries of the golden coin in the dirty hand the coin is this that deposit of faith the grace the sacraments the truth it's handed on from generation to generation but the hands that handed on are soiled they're human they're sinful they're imperfect they're confused themselves sometimes. But that coin

still gets handed on, and those hands do not cease generation to generation. So what do we have to do? One of the reasons we're in this mess, where there's so much confusion, and where people do come to the conclusion, hey, I don't have a home anymore in my parish, in my diocese, at my Catholic church, I don't have a home anymore. Why have we gotten to that point? Because we have a very unhealthy way of communicating our concerns within the church. And this goes back to something I was saying before. We have to learn in the church how to disagree loyally, how to complain faithfully. In other words, maintaining our communion, our unity as a church. We can't be afraid to criticize our pastors. We can't be afraid or hesitant to criticize our bishops when there is good reason for that criticism. Because here's what's going to happen.

Here's the choice we have. The choice is not criticize or not criticize. The choice is that either we find a healthy way to bring forward our concerns and hammer them out, or we're going to grow so frustrated on the inside that then we end up either abandoning the church or abandoning even the faith. So we can't allow that to happen. And I think this is a real drawback right now, whereby, you know, any priest that feels like he can't allow that to happen and and i think this is a real drawback right now whereby you know any priest that feels like he can't he like you it's like you were asking me about the support that priests give me plenty of them or i would say most of them are strongly supportive it's like oh but i oh they literally say to me i gotta be careful what i say because my bishop is watching me and i'm walking on eggshells but that's not a healthy way to live in any kind of an institution.

So that's what we've got to address that honestly, prayerfully, consistently. And we've got to just find some courage to open our mouths and step up to the plate and jump into the battle again for the survival of the church, the nation and the world and the human family. We need to pray for the Pope and we need to pray that God will liberate him from these very bad advisors. I'm not going to remove him from responsibility. He has responsibility more than anybody else. That seat, Peter's seat, is the ultimate responsibility of our time.

But it's very clear that both he and people around him, there's an evilness. And I'm just going to say it. I'm allowed to say it. No one can fire me from the church. There's something very sinister going on. And it is very disheartening. And I just want you to know, and I hope you would pass it on to Bishop Strickland, that there are those of us who are in the pews, the everyday people living our lives, you know, having babies, raising them and trying to raise them up in the church. We won't lose faith. But part of the reason is because we're looking to courageous men like you who are standing up and standing in that gap.

And boy, I really pray for other bishops and priests to stand more publicly with you, because I believe the American church, you know, we can't let it be lost. And by the way, many of those cardinals that you say were being elected, a lot of those are coming from the African church, which is growing, right? Yes, that's right. That's right. And what you're saying, I often summarize by saying, the best rebuke against these people in the hierarchy who are doing the wrong thing, the best rebuke is success. My canon lawyer told me, as we were doing all these battles over the last two decades, he says, you know, when it comes to the bishops, what they can't control, they kill.

What they can't control, they kill. And this is what we're seeing. And our best response to that, hey, you didn't kill us. We're still around. We're still speaking. Our ministry is still growing. And that's the thing.

That's where people can help above all. It's not like we can knock on the door of the Pope and convince him to, you know, get on the right track. But we can support the work that the faithful priests and bishops are doing. And then, again, our rebuke against those that want to kill us is our success. I love it. Well, Frank, thank you for joining us. Thanks for being a voice for truth. Thank you for listening.

And I've been a big fan a long time before I had a chance to meet you. I think it was at the White House back in the mid-2010s. But, you know, someone who's stood up and unabashedly fought for the life of the unborn. No one, I think, has been more in the forefront in that fight and battle you've been doing great work and are going to continue to do that great work and again this is your time to go you know what I'm being

persecuted and I'm going to stand up and I'm going to do it with joy and I'm going to keep fighting because I'm a believer and so we are grateful for you and thankful that you would join us at the kitchen table. Thank you. Thank you so much, Father.

It is a pleasure. As I said, I'm grateful for the two of you and all that you do. Let's continue to stay in touch. God bless. Absolutely. God bless you. We'll fight on, Father.

Amen. Amen. That was a great conversation. Thank you for joining us at the kitchen table. If you like our podcast, you can rate, review, subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts. You can always find us at foxnewspodcast.com. And again, please subscribe.

You get a notice every time our podcasts drop. We drop Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. We enjoy you joining us. We love to have a conversation around our kitchen table. Talk about all the issues of the day. politics, culture, foods, farms, everything, everything, families. Don't forget, you can listen ad free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts and Amazon Prime members can listen to the show ad free on the Amazon Music app. So be sure to subscribe. on the Amazon Music app, so be sure to subscribe.