From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - Fighting Socialism At Home And Abroad ft. Daniel Di Martino and David Smolansky

Episode Date: October 9, 2021

This week, the Duffy’s invite two people with first-hand experience of what socialist policies did to the Venezuelan economy and its people.  Economist and freedom activist who has spoken at CPAC, Daniel Di Martino discusses the similarities he sees in the U.S. political debate today and right before the Venezuelan government enacted socialist policies.    Later, David Smolansky, the former Mayor of El Hatillo Municipality in Caracas, Venezuela, who is currently living in exile after being removed from office during Maduro administration. David is now working as a visiting scholar at Georgetown University and shares his experiences living under the thumb of the Maduro Regime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

At Mazda, we craft cars for those who choose to do more than simply move. So choose joy, choose the road, and choose to get out there. Choose your calling, choose to make memories, and choose more of what moves you. Mazda. Move and be moved. Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm your host, Sean Duffy, along with my host for the podcast, but my partner in life, Rachel Campos Duffy. Thank you, Sean. And you are my partner in life. I love that. Thank you. I'm excited about the podcast today, Sean, because I talk a lot about Venezuela. I lived in Venezuela back in 1994.

I love Venezuelans. I had a Venezuelan boyfriend, as you know. Let's not go there. Let's not go there. All right. And, you know, what's happened to Venezuela breaks my heart. And one of the things that you and I talk a lot about is what's happening to this country. And I think there's some lessons in Venezuela for America.

And so what we did today is we brought in some guests that we thought could give us some insight. What did they see in Venezuela? What happened there? What are the parallels? What are the things they wish that they had done differently, maybe even in their own personal finances before all this stuff fell apart? What are the things they're seeing in America that remind them of the things they were seeing in Venezuela before the you know what hit the fan. And so we brought in several guests. Our first guest is going to be Daniel DiMartino. Now, Daniel DiMartino is an economist. He's a speaker. He's a writer. He was born and raised in Venezuela, and he experienced the consequences of socialism firsthand. So let me bring in Daniel right now. Daniel, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. Thank you for having me, Shannon and Rachel. I really

appreciate the opportunity. So can I start by just reading you a quote? Because here's what I find interesting about Venezuela. This is a quote from Ayn Rand. She said, there's no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end. Communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide. So Venezuela voted to bring in Hugo Chavez back in 1998, I believe. Is that right? That's right. That's right. So talk to me about why Venezuelans became disillusioned with capitalism and free markets and decided to elect Hugo Chavez, this revolutionary, what was it? You guys called

it the Bolivarian revolution, socialism. Yeah. Well, I'm going to take us back to the time when Venezuela was the fourth richest country on the planet. That was in the late 1950s. That was also the time when we accepted millions of immigrants from the whole world because Venezuela was so prosperous. They'd attracted people from Europe, from the Middle East, from the rest of Latin America. Even many Americans came to live in our country. And so it was a good time to be a Venezuelan. According to the World Bank, Venezuela was the fourth richest country on the planet, just below the United States, New Zealand, and I believe it was Australia or Canada, the third one. So what happened, right?

Obviously, things were not right by the time Chavez got elected in 98. Otherwise, Venezuelans wouldn't have voted for him. But the issue was that as Venezuelans elected more and more progressive governments over the second half of the 20th century, these governments also increased state involvement in the economy. You see it in 1976, the oil industry was nationalized. This was pre-Chavez regime. This gave the government so much power. They spent so much money on welfare programs

because they wanted to redistribute wealth. Even they imposed price controls back then in the 20th century. And the economy was in shambles. By the time in the late 1990s, when the country was actually broke and we had to go to the International Monetary Fund to receive money to pay our debt and implement free market policies to fix our problems, it was too late. By the time unemployment was already high, people were tired of the corruption of the establishment, politicians, And the consequence was that they wanted to elect somebody who they thought would fix things, who was in the military, but who had also attempted a coup, was a criminal.

And that person was Hugo Chavez. He got elected a month before I was born. That's how long this has been happening. I'm 22. And so the regime is almost 23 years old. So when he was elected, things seemed at first to be working, and then it stopped working? Yes. In fact, the issue was that at the beginning, he continued implementing the reforms of the International Monetary Fund. reforms of the International Monetary Fund. It was by 2002, approximately, that he started cracking down on private property, taking over the means of production. In fact, when he ran for president, he promised that he wouldn't take over private companies. He promised that he would

work with the private sector. He tried to moderate, even though everybody knew that he was a Cuban stooge. And in fact, we were right. My parents were right. My family and millions of people were right that he would destroy our country. The bad part was that it was much worse than anybody anticipated. Nobody thought that Venezuela, a democratic country that has such a rich history, could turn by vote into something worse than Cuba. And so that's interesting, Daniel, because you talk about it happened by way of vote. And so what kind of messages and themes

did Chavez and his party have that would allow Venezuelans to say, we want to take a step away from capitalism in a system that, yes, listen, capitalism is not perfect, but it is the most perfect system that exists on the face of the earth and the most fair system. We want to take a step away from that. And we want to dive into this Chavez-esque socialism. What were they sold on? Yeah. Well, the issue was that in the late 90s, there was an economic crisis in the country. Now, that economic crisis spells in comparison to what we live in now. It sounds like a paradise. But inflation was high.

It was about 20%. There was high unemployment. And that made the message of Chavez, which was of redistributing wealth, of blaming the rich for the problems of the poor, of saying that it is, you know, foreign corporations that are taking all our money and if the government just takes everything over, everything's going to be better. And that's why that message resonated. And that's why it's so important that we keep the United States a prosperous country as much as we can, right, with free markets. Because otherwise, we're giving an opening to these demagogues, these demagogue socialists, who can then use our economic crisis, like COVID-19, like other things, to turn our country into what Venezuela.

Yeah, Dina, I want to get to the comparisons between Venezuela and the US in a second. But when this happens, if you have people who are steeped in freedom and free enterprise and capitalism, they won't- In the constitution. They won't buy the lie of socialism. So someone had to plant the seeds in Venezuela that this other model would be better than the freedom that they enjoyed and the capitalism that they enjoyed? Do you know anything about, did this happen through the education system, through the media? How were people in Venezuela softened up for the message of more state control of enterprise and more redistribution? Yeah. Well, I think that the biggest way in which

it happened through the education system, at least, was by the time oil was nationalized in 1976, it became almost in the education system. And I can tell you this from my parents, and then I lived this when I was in school too, already during Chavez. Everybody thought that the only way for the government to run and to exist in our country was for it to own the oil industry and all natural resources. So that was the orthodoxy of the education system. That's right. If you thought that the oil industry should be private and people should be owning their own land if they find oil

in it, like they do here in the United States, that would be a taboo to say something like that. Right. You would be like an enabler of the imperialists. There's a lot of talk about that in Latin America, right? Right. You would be like the supporter of the American capitalists who just want to take our money. And that's not the case, right? Venezuela had a private oil industry until 1976. It was not a bad place to be. And our country was much better before 1976 than after. And so that was one of the ways in which it happened. And then we never had, like the United States, this movement of people who love freedom back then, right? We never had a second amendment,

even though we had gun rights, you know, of course, you know, there was a way to obtain a permit, but it was nothing like in America. We never had the same history. And Venezuela was also a democracy that had lasted for only 40 years before Chavez took over. Right. So it was a young democracy. And so a lot of those ideas had not really taken root. And so some of these other ideas, these socialist ideas had some fertile ground to work with. So let me ask you this, because what's interesting to me about you,

Daniel, besides the fact that you're so young and so articulate and informed and you love freedom, is that you have lived in both of our worlds, right? You experienced this decline of Venezuela through your parents. You understood profoundly what Venezuela looked like and felt like prior to 1976, prior to also Chavez taking over. So you have this experience that so many Americans don't have who really take for granted that America will just always be America and will always be prosperous and will always be free. What are the things that you're seeing right now in America that remind you of things that were starting to go wrong in Venezuela? What are the warning signs that you and your parents even experience

and can see now in America? I think the biggest warning sign I see is the feeling of entitlement, that somebody is entitled to somebody else's work and possessions and achievements. It is the envy of somebody else's success and saying that it's their own right or that they are entitled to some of it. And we see that in the discussions about wealth redistribution. We see it even with the discussions that the left wants to push through the race reparations. And here in the United States, it's a very different dynamic than in Venezuela because it's harder to divide this country against free markets or against wealth creation. But it's easier to divide it based on race and sex.

And I think that that's why the left has opted through that division tactic here and try to sow that resentment. Because at the end, socialism comes from resentment. And if you can sow resentment in the population, you will get socialism voted into power. Daniel, one of the things that's interesting, so I'm half Mexican-American and I'm also half Spanish. So I have many relatives who live in socialist Spain. And I remember, gosh, years back, I had a good friend in Spain, Diana, who owned property. Her family owned property rentals. And she would tell me about squatters and people that you could rent a property or if it was unrented, people could just live in there. And I remember when she would tell me that that was happening, that people were living in her property or in other people's properties as well without paying for it and that they couldn't get them out. I remember thinking to myself, not thinking to myself, telling her, well, that could never happen in America.

And now we're seeing it with these moratoriums on rental properties. I know somebody in San Francisco who actually had to pay reparations to the squatter in her own rental property to get them out. I mean, it was like crazy stuff that I just thought could never happen in America. Yeah. Actually, my grandparents from my mom's side are from Spain, from Galicia, specifically. They immigrated to Venezuela in the 50s. And in Spain, the name that these squatters are called is ocupas because they occupy your property. And in Venezuela, we had that same thing happen with Chavez because he enacted into law the right to housing. And if you have the right to housing, it means that if you are renting an apartment and then you stop paying rent, then nobody can take you out because that's your right to live there. In fact, I know many people in Venezuela who lost their properties because of

that. And that happened in Cuba as well, right? In Cuba as well. And what's the consequence, right? The consequence in practical terms is that nobody then will ever again rent an apartment. And therefore, if you know, this person that lived there might benefit in the short term, but then the rest of society, nobody will be able to find an apartment to rent. I just met a woman in Florida who said, I'm selling my apartment building because I can't get the people who aren't paying rent out. I'm going to lose a million dollars, but at least I'll salvage some of the money. And that's what happened.

That's exactly right. And it all comes from that resentment, right? And the left here wants to enact these things. You mentioned the rent moratorium, right? The eviction moratorium. But it's not just that. Kamala Harris, one of her signature proposals was to give free housing to people, have the government pay for it.

At least that's not a moratorium on evictions. But what would be the consequence of having the government take over the whole housing industry of this country? That is the most personal part of our lives. Where do we live? Where do we choose to live? How much we pay? How are our apartments designed? We cannot let the government take over every single aspect of our lives. And that's what scares me of the leftist politicians here. It is scary. And when we have private property, if people don't pay rent, people stop investing in properties and you just have this dilapidation of, of properties across the country. But I want to ask you,

you mentioned something earlier about gun rights. What did you see happen in Venezuela with regard to gun rights? Because, as you know, in the U.S., there's a divide. There's more conservative Republicans are very supportive of the Second Amendment and their right to bear arms. But when you see these revolutions happen, oftentimes they happen where people's rights to bear arms have been taken away. Did that happen in Venezuela as well? Yeah. I mean, one of the things that Chavez did multiple times was his disarmament campaigns, where he would supposedly take weapons away from the population and then pay them to get it and progressively take as many weapons out of civilian hands as he could. Of course,

out of civilian hands, not out of criminal hands as he could. Of course, out of civilian hands, not out of criminal hands. The criminals in Venezuela have Russian military-grade weapons. Some of them are better armed than the police, even inside the jails. It's like living in Somalia or an anarchic society at this point. The consequence was that not only are we beholden to crime, that's really not the most important part. We're beholden to the regime, the military, who is a tyrannical government. Imagine, and you know, this might not be popular with many people, but the truth is that Venezuelans have a right to self-determination. And sometimes you have to free yourself from a tyrannical regime

through the use of force. That's what happened in this country when we became independent from Great Britain. It was not a peaceful setting. It was actually the American Revolutionary War. And we cannot do that in Venezuela because we have no weapons to do it. What other similarities do you see in this moment? What other similarities do you theory in this country, even at the college level. Just the lack of showing an alternative perspective to college students.

Most college students aren't leftists. Most college students are apolitical, if we really go down to it, right? Most college students don't even vote in this country. But imagine college professors that only show one side of the coin. These students don't even have an opportunity to explore what conservatives believe in. It's not that they're being told that conservatives are bad and that's it. It's that they're not even presented what conservatives believe in. Anything that is outside of what they're presented, it seems extremist and it's not. Well, and not only

that, they're being presented with the lie of socialism. They're not taught the truth of socialism and communism and the complete despair that it creates. So Daniel, I want to ask you this. Obviously, I think we are on a partial Venezuelan track here with what's happening in America. It concerns both me and Rachel. What advice do you have to Americans? What should they be doing to say, we want to push back on these sets of ideas. We want to preserve what's made America so great. What did you learn in Venezuela that we can do here to actually prevent this from this Venezuelan economy as our future here in America? Yeah. Well, first, I'm going to talk a little bit about the societal part and what we can do to stop that from happening here.

But then I'm also going to give some tips as well about what we did in Venezuela to weather the storm. Right. So the biggest thing is gratitude. Right. But then I'm also going to give some tips as well about what we did in Venezuela to weather the storm, right? So the biggest thing is gratitude, right? The opposite of resentment is gratitude. And how we sow gratitude in our society is through our own families. That's where we can have the most impact, through our children, through our siblings, through our parents, anybody in our families that we interact with the most every day. And how do we show gratitude? We see the things around us and we see them from a different perspective. Every time I go to the grocery store, I didn't have any of that when I lived in Venezuela, right? I didn't have full aisles of

food. I sometimes didn't even have electricity many days per week or water sometimes for several weeks in my apartment. And so I am grateful every day for these little things that now we just assume are normal, but they're really not. In a historical perspective, we're living in a very exceptional period. Even in the worst moments during COVID-19, even in the worst moments during the world wars in this country, we're still an exceptional country. And that's the kind of thing that we need to be grateful for. And if we have that historical, that world perspective of how different and how lucky we are to live in America, then we can also reach the reasoning, which is that,

why are we like that? Why are we so lucky? Maybe it's not luck because it is not. Maybe it is policies. Maybe it is institutions. Maybe it is the free market. It is the ideas, right? It is the culture too. It is a culture that promotes entrepreneurship, that celebrates entrepreneurship. Not every country celebrates entrepreneurship in the world. America is pretty exceptional in that. And I think that that's one of the reasons for its success. And that's the kind of thing that we need to sow. On the personal part in Venezuela, because we had hyperinflation due to all the government spending out of control and increasing the money supply, a big way to hedge against hyperinflation due to all the government spending out of control and increasing the money

supply, a big way to hedge against hyperinflation was of course to buy hard currency, which hard currency for us was the US dollar. So it's not like you guys can buy US dollars, that's what you already have. I don't think we'll have hyperinflation in the US, but if there's at any point shortages, things that are of basic necessities, we, you know, in Venezuela, we learned that we had to have always basic necessities stored, right. In case something happened. And I think that many Americans learned that the hard way during COVID-19, when there was no toilet paper here, and I just had a flashback to Venezuela that scared me a little bit for a while. You're right about that. When you see the inflation situation here, does that make you,

it sounds like you're not that concerned about it? So I think that the, I trust the Federal Reserve of this country. That's why I'm not that concerned. I think that they are a very well-independent institution. And that in the worst case, even if the Biden government passes all their trillions in spending, the Federal Reserve will just increase interest rates. And yeah, that will mean that we will have high unemployment, but we won't have hyperinflation. And so the worst case really for us would be having a very bad employment crisis rather than

an inflation crisis. Daniel, I agree with everything you've said, but that I do not agree with. I think we're $28 trillion in debt. Democrats are proposing $8 trillion of new spending today. We have been buying our bonds by printing money. That's subsiding now. And when that happens, rates are going to rise, but you have to service that massive debt. And I think you can get into a death spiral of raising rates, printing money, increasing taxation, which creates a stagnant economy, which means less entrepreneurship, less growth, less jobs, and the downward spiral continues. less jobs, and the downward spiral continues. So, I mean, we may not have Venezuelan-esque inflation, which was thousands of percent, but really challenging inflation, which could get back to the 15, 20, 25%. I mean, think about, Sean, think about what happened in Greece or in

Spain or in Italy when those countries went almost bankrupt and Greece went bankrupt, right? Which is what could happen to us. They didn't have inflation. They actually had a little deflation because things were as bad and people had so little money that nobody could even afford things. And they had like 40% unemployment. So I'm talking about Great Depression level still. But the inflation part, unless the Federal Reserve really makes a huge mistake and they don't increase interest rates, the money supply just won't grow. And so that's why I'm not that concerned about the inflation part.

We'll have to do another podcast on that, Daniel. But one of the differences, and especially in recent times with Greece, they didn't control their money supply. They were on the euro. So here we can print. They were stuck in the euro and couldn't monetize their debt. And therefore, that caused the situation that you just mentioned, which obviously we can continue to print and borrow, which is what when countries do that, the consequences is pretty knowable.

You see wild inflation when we- And hey, Bernie Sanders would love to make us into Venezuela. I mean, his economic advisor was Stephanie Kelton. Stephanie Kelton is an economist that is well-known for her book about modern monetary theory. Modern monetary theory is a fringe theory in economics that is not well accepted because it essentially means that you can just print as much money as you need to cover government spending. It's literally Venezuela made into a book and talked about how, you know, it's not going to have the exact same consequences. But she was Bernie Sanders economic advisor during the campaign. She wasn't. We're going to close this out, Daniel.

But I want to say I'm glad you ended on Bernie Sanders. And we should also mention AOC and also Barack Obama. All of these people were fans of the Cuban dictatorships of the Venezuelan socialist revolution. Hollywood, whether it was Danny Glover or Sean Penn or Michael Moore, they all praised Hugo Chavez and later Maduro. So all of this and they were apologists for so much of the misery that they caused on the Venezuelan people. Bernie Sanders actually said on his website that the American dream was more likely to be found in Caracas than in the United States. And of course, when the crap hit the fan, economically speaking, and they were no longer able to hide what was happening in Venezuela, he quietly took that

off his website. The media never held him to account for what he had written. Nobody's ever asked him to explain that. But they continue to sell the ideas that brought Venezuela to its knees, as you said, from the richest country in Latin America, really the jewel of Latin America, down to the poorest where people are starving. Some people are having to skin their dogs and their cats. Women are having to sell their bodies in order to feed their families. I mean, just true miseries and indignities that so many Cubans and Venezuelans have had to experience at the hands of this ideology. Daniel, you are a voice of freedom, especially among young people, that we need.

There are so many young people that are buying these lies. I hope that you continue to get many, many large platforms to talk about your experience and to warn America about the dangers of socialism and how blessed we are to have this country. So Daniel, if you have one last thought, give it to us and then we're going to close it out. Thank you so much, Rachel and Sean. I think that the last thing I would love to say is that I'm optimistic about the future of America because while America faces the same enemies that destroyed Venezuela, destroyed Cuba, and the rest of the world with their socialist policies, America has something else going.

with their socialist policies. America has something else going, and that is the spirit of the American people that is very different from the spirit of the people of the rest of the world. That's why I came to this country. That's why millions of immigrants come to this country. And it's because there is a huge chunk

of the population here that believes in freedom in ways that you can't find anywhere else. And that's why I'm hopeful for the future, and I think everybody should be too. Thanks for leaving us with that message of hope. Thank you, Daniel. You're awesome. Keep it up. Thank you so much. What an amazing guest that was, Sean. I mean, so interesting, so articulate. And again, just firsthand knowledge. You can't beat that. Someone who lived through the horror of the

revolution in Venezuela and sees the blessing of America, but also sees parallels and dangers of where we're at now in America that could be our future. And we need great Americans, great immigrants like this to get this message out and fight back and push back to make sure we preserve the idea of capitalism and freedom that we have in this country. Of all the things he said, John, I think they're probably the most interesting to me. And I think the one we should really take away and really take to heart is that the answer lies in our families.

I thought that was interesting to me, but also the second amendment and guns were interesting to me as well. Yeah. You seem to have a bone to pick with him on the inflation and monetary policy. I thought that was an interesting discussion. He needs a whole new podcast for that. We do. We'll be back with much more after this. At Mazda, we craft cars for those who choose to do more than simply move. So choose joy, choose the road, and choose to get out there.

Choose your calling. Choose to make memories and choose more of what moves you. Mazda, move and be moved. All right. So we have this other guest. We brought in another Venezuelan because this topic is so relevant to what we're living through. His name is David Samalski. He is actually the former mayor of El Jatio municipality in Caracas, Venezuela. He's currently living in exile. He's a visiting scholar at Georgetown University. He was actually removed from office by the Maduro administration. I like him already. Yeah, you already like him. We know you by your enemies. That's a great one. He was a vital part of the student movement. And what I think is great about having him is that there is a youth movement fighting against the socialists.

I wonder where that movement is here in the United States. So let's bring him in. David, it's so great to have you on the show. Let's get right into this. What are the parallels? What are you seeing? Whether it's statues coming down, street names changing, are there things that are happening right now in America that seem familiar to you? I think the most familiar thing that I have seen in the US since I've been living in exile when I compared to Venezuela when the regime started 22 years ago is the depolarization. And when people sometimes just do things in politics, not because of conviction, but more with, I don't know, envy of what others have achieved.

That's very dangerous for society. It really hurt the situation in Venezuela. That's how Chavez started 22 years ago. And my biggest advice to these countries, never take democracy and freedom for granted. What I find interesting, David, is this. So in America, with freedom, you can allow socialists to operate, to get into your schools, to let their ideas be expressed. We have freedom of speech and freedom of ideas, and they can take root and take hold.

They can take root and take hold. I think it's interesting in Venezuela, once the socialists have taken over a country and you have a movement like you were trying to create with students trying to push back against the socialists and the regime, they don't offer you the same freedom of expression and congregation and voting, do they? Not at all. Actually, I started in politics when I was a student of journalism. And we went to lead nonviolent protests because the biggest and most few TV stations in Venezuela were shut down by Hugo Chavez. And since then, there have been hundreds of TV stations and radio stations in Venezuela that have been shut down. And in Venezuela, there's

no freedom of expression. So basically, when when when communism, which is that some people that said that they say that they are socialist, like Chavez used to say Venezuela is the same as the communism, communism in the 20th century. When they are in power, they don't guarantee freedom of speech. They don't guarantee free and fair elections. They don't guarantee human rights. And that's what we are facing in Venezuela.

Just let me put you in this perspective. I'm sorry if I'm taking a bit longer on this answer. Venezuela now is suffering the biggest humanitarian crisis in the Western Hemisphere. 95% of Venezuela right now is living in poverty. Six million Venezuelans have fled the country, which is the largest refugee crisis in the history of the region and only serious about Venezuela is the communist regime in Venezuela is that bad that they have that more people have fled Venezuela because of this regime that for example Afghanistan Afghan from from the Taliban uh and and right now yeah because there are three million migrants and refugees from Afghanistan six million

from Venezuela. So those are the consequences when you don't have freedom, when you don't have access to justice, when you don't have a democracy. But something very important, this type of regime, like the one in Venezuela, also wants to not guarantee stability in the region. And who are their allies? Cuba, Russia, China, Iran. So with that alliance, which is very dangerous, they want to threaten the whole region. And the whole region in this case includes the United States. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting because you talk about, as Sean pointed to, that they don't give freedom of speech.

I mean, just this week, just this week alone, we had our Department of Justice basically make moves to make parents who complain about socialism and Marxism being taught in schools. They're being labeled domestic terrorists. We had an ESPN host who dared to criticize Barack Obama and the vaccine mandates taken off the air. We saw the suppression of really vital information for our elections in 2016, the Hunter Biden laptop. We saw that being suppressed by our media. We also have Donald Trump taking off social media. We've had Parler removed from, in essence, the face of the earth through Google, Apple, and Amazon. Books are being banned and removed from shelves on the network that that employs us. Fox, you have the left calling for sanctions or removal of Fox News that offers a different point of view from the far left. Yeah. Oh, for sure. I mean, one of the first things Obama tried to do was get Fox News removed.

And the effort to squash this point of view or at least present us as wacky conservatives and conspiracy theorists, that continues. So again, let's talk about these parallels because I know that when my mom's an immigrant, she will say to you that she doesn't recognize this America from the America that she came to. she doesn't recognize this America from the America that she came to. Sean and I have spent the whole last year, David, saying to our kids, everything you're seeing, the government shutting down schools, businesses, telling people they can't go to church, this is not normal. We're trying so hard or telling people they have to wear masks or they have to take this medicine or they can't have that medicine. All of this stuff is not American. And I'm so afraid because you have the experience of being part of this youth movement fighting for freedom in Venezuela. I'm afraid we won't have a youth movement because all of this stuff is being normalized to young people. And they're going through these indoctrination mills at our elementary, high schools, and universities. And I just don't know if they'll have

the ability to fight back the way you guys have tried, at least. I think the role of the family, what you're saying, is very important, right? Right. To not only mean a kid or teenager, not only learn from school, also learn from from from from their family. And what you said, I mean, when you when you when you have a family who are immigrant, who came to this country and was able to live and conquer the American dream, that's what the next generation needs to learn. I mean, in this country, in the U.S., which I have been living in exile for 40 years, we need a strong United States of America in the world to face the threats of China, to face the threat of Russia, to face the threat of Iran, to face the threat of those dictators all around the world who,

what they want is a weak America. They want a U.S. that could be fragile. And if the U.S. is fragile... They're getting it. They're getting it, David. We are a weaker America. Well, and that's not good news, first of all, of course, for Americans, but it's not a good news for the world. So we need to understand that the dictators of the world, now they don't have to take tanks or weapons like they used to do in the past to conquer power. They're using democratic tools to conquer power. And once power is conquered, they destroy democracy. That's what happened in Venezuela. When Hugo Chavez went to power, he won through a free of elections and he was committed to fight against corruption and he was committed to guarantee more democracy and more liberties. The dictators, the modern dictatorships, they just use the democratic tools to conquer power and from power they destroy. And that's what it is important to avoid in the U.S. and any other country that still have democracy, that still have access to justice, that still have freedom.

And it's a good point you make because they argue that we're going to get rid of corruption. And it is the most corrupt government, probably in the Western Hemisphere, Venezuela. But let me ask you this. What institutional failures did you see in Venezuela? And I'm talking even about the media. Did the media go along with Chavez, or was there media pushback? Was there media debate? Because it concerns me in this country, it seems like most of the media is just on one side of the political ideological line. Was that the same thing that happened in Venezuela or was there a raucous debate through the institution of the media? And once Chavez was elected, did the media try to hold him to account at all?

That's a very good question, Sean. I think there were many institutions that were fragile by the moment Chavez conquered power. But I would say that the two most important was one, media. Media fell in love with Chavez and supported him. And by the moment that he went to power, well, you know what happened. He started to shut down different TV stations, radio stations. There are websites in Venezuela right now that are blocked. Sometimes social media in Venezuela is also blocked. But we were leading protests years ago and we were trying to do some Periscope or some Instagram Live.

They were completely blocked by, not by these companies, but they were blocked by the regime with the Chinese support, by the way. So definitely media was one that was very fragile by the moment. I wouldn't say fragile is the right word. fragile by the moment. I wouldn't say fragile, it's the right word. They fell in love with Chavez and they thought that, especially the owners of very important media companies in Venezuela, thought that Chavez would solve the country and it didn't happen. And the second thing, which is very important, and that happened in Venezuela and it is happening, according to what I have learned in other countries, with authoritarian regimes, is the justice system. The first thing that these dictators, especially from extreme left-wing,

try to do is to control immediately the justice system. Because if they control the justice system, it will be very difficult to get rid of them. control the justice system, it will be very difficult to get rid of them. So, you know, it is very important to preserve an independent and impartial justice system, especially in a country like the U.S. that still have democracy, that still have freedom of access. Right, but we've seen that kind of interference. We see George Soros funding prosecutors who refuse to prosecute criminals.

We see that whether it's Antifa or BLM, there was a justice system that wasn't applying the law equally to these groups in terms of the violence and the destruction that they caused. And then we saw media that were apologists for them. We're seeing the DOJ, as we, the FBI, you know, looking inward at domestic terrorists, like, you know, the opposition party is being turned into domestic terrorists as opposed to the opposition. quite concerning. So, as I said, I mean, it is very important. I would say it's the most important thing for any society is to preserve independent, impartial, and neutral justice system. And everyone should have the right to access to justice. I mean, There are things that are coming from, in this case, from the extreme left wing that is affecting

the U.S. in general, that is something that should be said aloud because once you lose your justice system, you lose democracy. When you don't have justice system, you lose democracy. When you don't have justice, when you don't have an impartial justice system, there is no democracy at all. There is no access to justice, and you start losing your liberties. David, you're 100% right. And in America, we see justice as blind, and you see the statue of Lady Justice.

She has two scales in her hands weighing and balancing justice. And she has a blindfold over her eyes because it shouldn't matter who you are, how much money you have, what your political connections conservative, there's a standard of justice for you. Donald Trump or those who supported Donald Trump had one level of justice. However, if you're Hillary Clinton and Hillary Clinton aides that start this lie about Russia collusion and they can lie to the FBI, there's a different standard for them. Conservatives go to jail. Democrats seem to not go to jail. Same with to not go to jail. Same with our protesters, right? Right. So you can have January 6th protesters are political prisoners that have been in solitary confinement for more than a half a year, where those who storm our streets, burn our buildings, and beat innocent people up, they don't get any jail time. And I think you make a really good

point. The justice system and making sure it is dispensed fairly and equitably is incredibly important because once you lose that, the ones in power can use justice to suppress their political opponents. Yeah, or those institutions. Because what is dangerous there, and sorry to add something more, is that you make things illegal, legal. When you control a justice system and there's no impartial anymore, things are illegal, they start to be legal. And those us how in Venezuela, I mean, and I look at even Cuba, it seems like those fighting back, that it's a young movement, that young people are fighting for freedom and for their future. fighting for freedom and for their future. And here in the United States, I'm becoming increasingly concerned that our kids are just getting indoctrinated, that they're becoming softened to socialism and embrace socialism and Marxism. And in some cases are really the enforcers, whether it's the enforcers of COVID mandates or the enforcers of speech in schools. I mean, professors are petrified of their own students turning them in. So this is a thing that I see that is very different. Am I right in that?

Well, from socialism, from extreme left-wing, from communism, because once again, socialism of the 21st century is the same as communism of the 20th century. There's nothing good that you can learn from. There's nothing good that you can have. have. I've come from a country that is suffering the consequences of this type of regime. And as I said earlier, I mean, Venezuela, 6 million people have fled the country. With a projection in 2022, there will be 7 million. That will the largest uh migration refugee crisis in the world even above syria as i said 95 percent of venezuelans right now are living in poverty or extreme poverty uh the private the private sector in venezuela has been killed literally i mean there's there's no there's no way to be successful through through your own entrepreneur or having your own company.

It has been expropriated. It has been nationalized by the regime. Venezuela has become a criminal hub, one of the most dangerous criminal hubs of the world, not only because of these external actors that are aligned with Maduro, but also irregular armed groups created in Venezuela or coming from other parts of the region, especially from Colombia, has found protection in

Venezuela. I just want you to listen to this. I mean, more than 360,000 Venezuelans have been killed because of crime since 1999. That's even more than the whole war in Iraq, right? So, I mean, I've come from a country that has suffered the consequences of a guy, of a group of guys that have said, you know, socialism will solve your problems. And it is not. It is not true. So, And it is not. It is not true. So sometimes I hear people talking about communism, Marxism and socialism, and they have not lived on those systems.

They have not really learned the consequences of those systems. And sometimes it's very trendy to talk about it. But in practice, it just creates consequences. And let me tell you something. And maybe this will sound controversial. I have some friends, you know, from university or from my political background that they are like center left, right? Or they're like left wing, right?

Like more similar to some of the systems that you can say, that you can see, especially in Europe, right? But when you go extreme left, when you go socialism, when you go to communism, there's nothing good there. There's nothing good there that you can find. So, yeah. I don't think that's controversial. Oh, yeah. Well, I don't know.

Some people maybe say… Well, Dave, that leads me to my next question. So, you've been to the U.S. for how long? How long have you been here? I've been living in exile here for four years. I arrived in 2017. So, you've been here the U.S. for how long? I've been living in Exxon here for four years. I arrived in 2017. So you've been here for four years. You get to see the political debate that happens in America.

You see the positions of parties. Do you have an opinion of what party is in line with freedom and what party is in line with this more socialist view? Or are both parties at fault? this more socialist view or are both parties at fault well in the case of venezuela one of the things that i have i want to be very clear is that the efforts to restore democracy freedom in venezuela have been bipartisan uh uh that you know we have we have had uh proposals and and and and a executive orders and bills that have been proposed and have been promoted by the former administration, by this administration, but especially have come

from senators from both parties. When the former administration ended, you can go to my Twitter and I said publicly that Venezuelans have to say thank you for all the efforts that former President Donald Trump and former Vice President Mike Pence did to restore democracy and freedom in Venezuela. And we hope that this administration right now does the same, because what he said earlier, what is going on right now in Venezuela is not only affecting Venezuelans, it's affecting the whole region. Venezuela has become, if not the most dangerous, one of the most dangerous criminal hubs in the world.

When you have the same territory,anians cubans russians chinese irregular armed groups and and that regime by the way is today is is their income is through illicit activities such as drug trafficking illegal mining human trafficking smuggling there's nothing good there's nothing good at all there's nothing good there's nothing good that comes from socialism and there And there's not a Republican socialist wing of the Republican Party. There's only the Democrat socialist wing of one party, David. So I'm going to answer the question for you. There is only one group that's supporting socialism in America. One party that's promoting socialism in America is Democrats. Not all of

them. Most of them. And also they were apologists for the Cuban government. And so again, I think it's really important in America where we speak with clarity. And I know that politics can be hard, but there's clarity around who wants to move into this leftist socialist regime. And to your point, there's nothing good there. Nothing good comes from socialism and Democrats are supporting it. Republicans are trying to stand up and push back against it. Let me ask you a question about elections, David. Obviously, you're an elected mayor. Are elections still somewhat fair? I mean, can the people rise up through the electorate and form a new government? Or if you're going to regain freedom in Venezuela, is it only going to come from an armed conflict, armed revolution, or intervention from another country? Or can you do it through the ballot box? What is the future path of freedom for Venezuela? How does it happen?

this moment, right? So, first of all, in Venezuela, there's no free and fair elections. We have lost that right for at least during the last five years. The last kind of competitive election that we had was in 2015, when the vast majority of Congress

was won by the opposition, and since then, Maduro has not permitted free and fair elections. You will see probably in the news, and this is very important, I will take time of it, that there are elections in Venezuela on November 21st to elect mayors and governors and incredibly the European Union is sending an observatory mission.

But I will tell you from now, six weeks before that election, there's no conditions in Venezuela to have free or free elections. Maduro controls literally everything. And I would the situation would be worse after that day. And there was a mayor who was elected and he was illegally removed from office. Is that Leopoldo? Sorry? Is that Leopoldo? No, myself. I was a mayor.

Oh, you. Okay. You're talking about yourself. Okay. I didn't know what you were talking about. And Leopoldo spent seven years between jail and house arrest because he was illegally detained due to the protests that he led. But in my case, when he was leading those protests, years after I was illegally removed from office, I am under arrest warrant. I haven't been able to go back to my country since 2017. And I had to spend 35 days in hiding until I was able to flee my country through a jungle in Brazil. So that's the type of things that happen to mayors that are against.

So to answer Sean's question, where does freedom for Venezuela come from? If they have total control and you can't do it through elections, what's the answer? As I said, that's a million dollar question. But I think every option needs to be on the table, to be very honest with you. Any option should be on the table. And this also could sound controversial for some people, but when you have a country that has a criminal regime,

because this is literally a drug cartel that has conquered power, but this is a drug cartel with gold mines, with gas fields, with oil refineries. This is not only affecting its own population, it's affecting the region. And in this case, in my opinion, Venezuelans cannot solve this alone. The international community has a responsibility. And just let me give you an example.

How close is Venezuela to the U.S.? A flight from Caracas, the capital of Venezuela, to Miami is the same distance than from Miami to Washington, D.C. The same distance. Now Iranians don't have to fly from Tehran to come to the U.S. or plan to do something from Tehran to the U.S. They're now in South America, right? So we need the support from the international community if we want to solve this quickly. We'll have more of this conversation after this. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists,

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I mean, it's so interesting you talk about elections. I mean, there was so much interference in our last election. I think the biggest was the suppression of information. After the New York Post article on Hunter Biden's laptop was suppressed by big tech and by all the other big media outlets that are aligned with the Democrats, the number one Google search was, how do I change my vote on the Internet? A lot of there was a poll that went out. Fourteen percent of Americans said they either if they had known about Hunter Biden, they did not know about Hunter Biden's laptop and had they known they would not have voted for Biden or would not have voted at all. So there's the election right there. I mean, you could win elect. You don't have to you don't have to have a Dominion voting machine or all the other crazy stuff that people were talking about. You can just suppress information, censorship. And again, there was a Time magazine article that was illuminating. Do you remember that, Sean, that talked about all the different ways that the institutions in America were conspiring against the Trump administration, not the least of which you brought up, Sean, with the FBI and the Russia collusion hoax, which hurt Donald Trump. Absolutely. And again, when you get all

institutions against one party and in favor of another party, and just by the way, in the US, you've seen this idea of socialism or the roots of socialism. We've seen it in our media for a long time, but it's in Hollywood, it's in big technology. We see it now being pushed into our military. You see corporate America now pushing the idea of socialism and capitalism is bad. And so we have a real political war on our hands to preserve freedom here. And my concern, David, is it's good people standing up. And when the leftist mob, which I still think is the minority here, comes after someone, oftentimes good people stand down. They don't lend their voice or their Twitter account

or their Facebook account or their public support of someone who's being attacked when the mob goes after them. If you're going to preserve freedom, if you're going who's being attacked when the mob goes after them, if you're going to preserve freedom, if you're going to preserve liberty, when the socialist mob comes for you, everybody has to stand up together. And I think democracy dies when good people stand silent as the war rages. And did that happen in Venezuela? I mean, when you started to see these signs, did people basically, they were afraid of losing their business or their social standing, and they kind of let this thing get out of control? Venezuela, during these 22 years, we have gone so many times to protest on the streets. And let me say, there have been nonviolent protests with hundreds of thousands, in some cases, even millions of people.

I've seen the images. They're striking. They're amazing. They're amazing how many people hit the streets. You're right. And we have been heavily, heavily, heavily repressed, heavily repressed. Just days before I had to fled my country because of the reasons that I shared with you a few minutes ago, I was one of the leaders of nonviolent protests that killed, I mean, that the regime decided to kill 167 innocent Venezuelan, the vast majority students, and thousands were wounded and thousands were illegally detained. So we have been heavily repressed. I mean, this regime is responsible for crimes against humanity. There has to be justice against those cronies who have destroyed the life of millions of Venezuelans. And in this type of a being, sometimes you see also people who

who try to agree behind the table with the regime, you know, some businessmen that they decide to, you know, okay, I will not do politics and let's have an agreement and I do my things, right? So sometimes you see, I don't know, videos or pictures from Venezuela that everything is fine, that maybe you go to a supermarket and that there's food or you have people, you know, visiting those beautiful landscapes that we have.

But that's a bubble But that's a bubble. That's a bubble. But this type of regime always try to have those bubbles to show the world a thing that is not the reality. But we were heavily, heavily repressed. And literally so many people killed and so many others illegally detained and tortured. As we speak, there are people who are tortured at this moment. So that is why I said at the beginning of this interview, never ever take freedom, democracy,

and access to justice for granted. Never. And young people have an enormous responsibility to guarantee because they are the next generation. So for me, even though things in Venezuela are complicated, I'm fighting for something that I don't know literally, that is to have a Venezuela with freedom, democracy and access to justice. So that's what I want for my children in the future. Of course. And David, when you left Venezuela that was ruined by socialism, you had a place to come to America. My concern is if America falls to socialism like Venezuela, where do people go?

Where does freedom still exist? And so to that point, what parallels do you see in the history of socialism in Venezuela to what's happening here in America. Yeah, try and be as frank as you can about what you're seeing in this moment. Well, just with migration, you will see very clearly. Venezuela used to be a very stable democracy, used to be a prosperous economy, to the point that 4 million people came to Venezuela. and to the point that 4 million people came to Venezuela. I am a son and a grandson of people that were suffering, by the way, from communism. My father was born in Cuba. My grandparents were born in the Soviet Union. And I am the third generation of a family that had to flee a communist regime. And Venezuela offered opportunities to my dad and to my grandparents

to have a different life that they couldn't in Cuba or the Soviet Union. And now people are not going to Venezuela because of the regime that we have. People are fleeing Venezuela. So what do you see here, though, David? What are you seeing here that reminds you? You've been here for four years. Do you see anything, though, David? What are you seeing here that reminds you? You've been here for four years. Do you see anything happening in this country? The most, to be quite frank with you, quite honest with you, the two most similar things that I have seen is, one, there is a huge polarization, especially promoted by the extreme left wing in this country. And that's not good news for any society, the polarization, because everything in Venezuela started like that. And coming from the envy, I'm not saying the right word in English, but coming from the envy And not on the idea.

So that's very dangerous, right? And the second thing that I have seen is that that polarization has gone to, you know, to every level, like in healthcare, where it has gone to the media. And as I said, that's not uh that's that's not a that's not that's not a good news so some i have i have heard you know that there are even families that are trying to avoid to talk about politics because of the polarization and and and this country has to be above of it has to be above of it so and the and the other thing, sorry, and the other thing is that in Venezuela, when this regime started,

some people, you know, talk about like socialism and everything, like a trendy thing, but they didn't know about it. They really didn't know about it because they didn't live on that type of system. That sounds familiar, doesn't it, Sean? And sometimes I see people here talking the same way, like this is like trendy, this is nice.

Because of course, sometimes in theory, it looks great, but it's impossible to put it in practice. David, did you see statues coming down? Like sort of this whole idea on the left here of trying to redo our history and rewrite it and get rid of things that don't align with leftist ideology and the destruction of the ideas of our founders are racist and

we need to tear down every Civil War statue. Every school is changing their name. They don't want to be called George Washington Elementary School anymore. Did she sign, you know, every school's changing their name there. They don't want to be called George Washington elementary school anymore. Did you see anything like that? Chavez tried to, to, to, to, to remain history, but he, he did it through our, our, our, our liberators. So he used Simon Bolivar, which is our, Simon Bolivar, which is the,

the, the, the, you know, the, for Venez. Simón Bolívar, which is the... For Venezuela, Simón Bolívar is for the American cities, George Washington. So he used Simón Bolívar for everything. He even changed the name of the country. He changed everything used in Bolívar all the time. But he made up the history. I mean, he, he, he made up the history, you know, I mean, he, he said things and he used Bolivar on things that he, that Bolivar was not. So he said that, for example, Bolivar was a socialist. Not at all. I mean, not at all. This all sounds kind of familiar in a different way. not a was not a socialist and and there and there are you know letters that bolivar uh wrote about it and even marx karl marx that lived decades before bolivar he was marx was a critic of

bolivar because of his idea so that's why the way chavez you know made up history to to what to create confusion in in society and i remember only once a statue that was destroyed in Venezuela, and it was the Christopher Columbus statue. So, you know, saying that Christopher Columbus was the guy who discovered America, and he

did bad things. He needed to promote imperialism and imperialism and all that kind of stuff was all part of that ideology. When the ideas are promoted from hate and from envy, nothing good. It's coming from there. With socialism, everything is turned on their head. What is good is evil and this is my takeaway from this conversation, socialism takes root, is what you said, when you envy, which is also coveting what someone else has. And when you have a culture that steps away from their Christian faith, which teaches

us not to envy, which teaches us not to covet, it's in our commandments. We should work for our own. We should be happy with what we have, not covet what someone else has. When you step away from the Christian faith that teaches those values, you open a wide lane for socialists to step in and tell you to covet and tell you to envy what other people have. And therefore, the socialist idea can take root because their ideas will take from others that have more and give to you, which might have less. And again, I think that's why we see in America this attack on faith, the attack on the church. On the family.

And on the family. That's right. So listen, David, I'm so grateful, one, that you ran for office. I was in the Congress for nine years myself in the US. I know it's not easy. And then- You didn't have to, Sean, you didn't have to go through a Amazonian jungle and escape to Brazil. Well, sometimes I felt like I was going- You felt like it, but it wasn't quite- But my life was not at risk like yours is. And I appreciate you finding exile here. I wish you were back in Venezuela leading, but you're here and sharing the story of Venezuela and sharing some of the ideas that we should be concerned about in this country. So Venezuela is not the future of America.

We're grateful for that. And hopefully you'll continue to speak out and share your powerful story. Yeah. David, as we close out, I remember I saw a Venezuelan man at an event stand up to speak. And he said that the answer, he said the same thing you said and the same thing our guest earlier, Daniel said, Daniel DiMartino, he said, it's up to the parents. He said, you need to teach your children to cherish freedom and to know that nothing is free. And he said, beware of the government that promises you free stuff. And he said, I don't care if it's a washing machine or a bag of rice. Nothing is worth your freedom. And he was crying when he told that story. And I just think, as you said, it sounds good, socialism on paper, but there's nothing

good behind that door. And this is the lesson. We can't depend on our school system to teach us that our kids that as you as as you and Daniel said that the other side, the capital capitalism and give Americans this warning sign that the path to socialism, that road to socialism is a dangerous one to continue down. Bernie Sanders and AOC and Elon Omar and Barack Obama's nice messages and see what really lies behind that door. You're telling us it's bad. And I believe you. I've seen it. I lived in Venezuela. It was a beautiful country. And now it's a mess. So again, David, thank you so much for joining us. We wish you well. And we stand shoulder to shoulder with you and all freedom-loving Venezuelans and all freedom fighters around the world, whether they're in Hong Kong or China or here in the United States. We have to stand together. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, and hopefully we can have a free Venezuela in the near future, and you are more than welcome to visit the country. I can't wait.

I had some good times on Margarita Island. I'll tell you that. Oh, that's the most beautiful island in the Caribbean. Yeah. You know, I named my daughter Margarita. I told Sean,

it was because of, of, of his sister who's named Margaret, but you know, now, you know, the truth. I think her old boyfriend brought her to that island., no, I didn't go down with him. I

didn't go with him to Margaret. I hope not. Sure. All right. All right, David. What great guests, right, Sean? Listen, both of them were fantastic. And I think given real insight into how socialism creeps into a society and then destroys it. Absolutely. Thank you for joining us for The Kitchen Table with the Duffeys. We've enjoyed the conversation. And if you did too, let us know. Subscribe, rate, and review this podcast at foxviewspodcast.com or wherever you download podcasts. We hope to see you around the table next week.

Bye-bye. jason in the house the jason chaffetz podcast dive deeper than the headlines and the party lines as i take on american life politics and entertainment subscribe now on foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you download podcasts