From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - How To Move Past Our Narcissistic Culture

Episode Date: January 15, 2022

This week, Sean and Rachel bring Host of the Disaffected podcast Joshua Slocum to the Kitchen Table to discuss the rise of female narcissism. Joshua believes that many women today have adapted self-important posturing, vanity, and victimhood. In his opinion, this level of narcissism is being pushed throughout the mainstream left and is an ongoing problem in society today.  Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm your host, Sean Duffy, along with my co-host for the podcast, but also my partner in life, Rachel Campos Duffy.

Thank you, Sean. We're back with more conversations from our kitchen table. Before we get to our guests, I want to lay out an interesting article that I read. It's really going to be the premise of this whole podcast because sometimes an article comes out that really hits a nerve. And this article, Sean, hit a nerve on the left and the right. Now, of course, I'm talking about the Atlantic article called How I Demolished My Life by Honor Jones, which essentially is this woman, Honor Jones, wrote an article about how she left her husband and broke up her family, and that she really felt like she just had to do it to fulfill herself. And so it comes into that whole question of what's the right thing to do.

She said it wasn't that she didn't love her husband. It wasn't that there wasn't any abuse. It was just that she wasn't feeling fulfilled. She was kind of going through a midlife crisis if you will and a lot of the liberal blue check women on twitter responded to this article really positively they were like this is so brave this is so awesome we're so you know inspired by her and and i will say as somebody who writes the writing was you know pretty good but here's a good jump in as well because then i'll tell you the response on the other side. This is an article that I would never read as a man. And this is- Like if you opened the Atlantic, you would never read it.

Never, never read this. It's something I would totally stop on myself. I was forced to read this article and partake in this podcast on this topic. But I did read it and it was interesting. So this is a mom of three. She has a husband. They're from New York. They moved out to a little farmhouse in Pennsylvania. It's picturesque with the cooktop stove and the- The farm style sink. She's renovating all the things. It's kind of idyllic and dreamy.

And as she's going through the process of renovating this house in Pennsylvania with the three kids, she realizes that she kind of hates the house and doesn't like her life with the kids and her husband. And they decide to move back to the city and dissolve their marriage. Well, she decides that really. She decides that. And as she's renovating the kitchen or the house, the renovations get smaller. She basically scales down the renovations because the dream that she thought she wanted of being married and having a family, she feels more and more distant from it. And in the article, she talks a lot about the mess. She sort of really hates the whole drudgery of housework and really begins.

I mean, I hate the housework, Sean. You know that. I hate it. I thought you liked it. But no, I do it because I like living in a clean house. But every woman, on some level, wishes she could afford to have someone zip it all up for her and make it all clean. Well, that doesn't happen. And she begins to really loathe the housework. And the housework almost becomes like this other character in her article. And she says, the crumbs got me down. I sometimes felt like they were a metaphor that as I got older, I was being ground down under the heel of my own life. And all I could do was settle into the carpet. I didn't have a secret life,

but I did have a secret dream life, which might've been worse. I love my husband. It's not that I didn't, but I felt that he was standing between me and the world, between me and myself. And so it kind of reminded me again, another book, Sean, you probably did, you never read was Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique, which was also, it was, you know, this was back in the, I don't know, early sixties, late fifties, something like that. And I read that book in my women's studies class in college. And again, that was one of those, you know, I hate my life as a suburban mom book that a lot of women really latched onto. Can I just say, we're going to have a guest we're going to bring

in a second. Can I respond to that? Yeah, we have a great guest, by the way, the perfect guest to talk about this. Perfect guest. But as I listened to this as a man, and I hear her talk about he's standing in her way and she can't seem to peer around him at her dreams. I wonder if she ever sat down with him and said, listen, this isn't working for me. And there's some other things I want to do and I'm not fulfilled. And he seemed like a pretty evolved guy. It kind of sucks to be a guy to wake up with you to go, my wife's not happy. Well, why in the hell didn't you tell me you weren't happy? Why didn't you tell me that you had other dreams that maybe we could have helped pursue? But I thought this kitchen in this damn farmhouse was your dream

and I did it with you. And all of a sudden, I'm helping you fill the dream that you say you have. And all of a sudden, I'm standing in the way of your dream. I'm getting gypped here. I'm getting totally worked over in this relationship and in the story. She admits that her husband was utterly perplexed and that she really didn't communicate very well what she really needed. The saddest part about this, and this is what we're going to bring our guests

in to talk about it. The saddest part is as the story ends and they move from the idyllic Pennsylvania farmhouse back to Brooklyn and all the adjustments that the kids, the kids are really the saddest part. And she admits that in the article, she says, by breaking up my family, I'd taken something from my kids that they were never going to get back. Naturally. I thought about this a lot. There was nothing I could give them to make up for it, except maybe a way of being in the world,

of being open in it. What she means is- What is that? I didn't even know what the hell that meant. The protection of childhood is gone and the harsh reality of life is forced on these little kids at an age that probably is too early so she could fulfill her dreams as opposed to trying to stick it out and figure out how she manages her marriage and manages to continue to get her dream, but also be a mom to her children. That's right. She also says,

I had caused so much upheaval, so much suffering. And for what? He asked me that at first again and again, she says about her husband. Of course. For what? And her answer, Sean, is, so I could put my face in the wind so I could see the sun's glare. I didn't say that out loud. I'm throwing up in my mouth right now. I know. Listen, it actually makes me angry. Listen, it was one of the most depressing things that I'd read in a while.

It's really interesting to get a male take on it. There's somebody that's been writing or talking and writing about a lot of this stuff. And that is Josh Slocum. He has a podcast called Disaffected, which I love. If you haven't subscribed to Disaffected, you have to. Josh Slocum is a fascinating character. I love listening to his podcast. By the way, ironically, I listen to it while I do housework. I wonder if he knows that. I listen to it as I do housework.

Josh is interesting because he's very open about his childhood. He kind of describes his mom as like mommy dearest incarnate. And he's had to work through a lot of issues that come from his childhood, which was very emotionally abusive with his mom. And it is through this process that he's identified what he calls unbridled female narcissism. And he talks about it in the context obviously of this article which is interesting but he also talks about and i hope we can get i don't hope we will get to this as well he talks about in the context of politics he believes a lot of the politics on the left from aoc and nancy pelosi and elizabeth warren and these type of figures is being driven by

Warren and these type of figures is being driven by unbridled female narcissism. So with no further ado, I want to introduce you first time on from the kitchen table podcast, Josh Slocum. Josh, welcome. Hey, Josh. Thanks, Rachel. Hey, Sean. And by the way, Sean, I was throwing up with you, but it didn't stay in my mouth. I swallowed mine back down. So Josh, first of all, welcome. We're so honored to have you on the show today. And again, I do encourage people who haven't had the experience of your podcast to experience it. I love it and listen to it often. Tell me what you thought, besides wanting to throw up, when you read this article, especially in the context of everything that you've sort of, the self-discovery you've made in your life about women. Well, what I thought was, you know, what we titled that episode of the show. It was an example of unbridled female narcissism, but it fits into a larger problem that I think I see, which is not restricted to women. This is a culture-wide

problem. You talked a little bit before you introduced me about my childhood growing up, and I tell people that my mother was a cross between Joan Crawford in Mommy Dearest and the mother in the horror movie Carrie. And I know that, I know, it's fun. Yes, please do laugh because it is cute. But I also mean it. I do mean people to take that connotation. So that's the kind of childhood that I grew up in, um, emotionally abusive, emotionally and physically abusive. And what I discovered five or six years ago, when I made a mistake and brought my mother back into my life in a closer way, was that the same patterns of abuse kept going. And my siblings and I figured out what had really been wrong in our family.

And it's something called cluster B personality disorders. Narcissistic personality disorder is one of the cluster B personality disorders. And I very quickly looked around because I'm a former leftist and it struck me how the manipulation, the lying, the fake victimhood, the claiming to be persecuted, the misrepresentations, that all of the behaviors that my siblings and I were used to from our mother were showing up on the left. And when I started the show a year ago, I said, they're showing up on the woke left. And I've stopped saying that because it is not just the woke fringe. This is now mainstream. And so my thought about this is the psychology that animates domestic abuse has gone feral. What we think of as private is now public and it's structuring our lives. Yeah, it's fascinating to me that you put it in the context of politics. And I want to get back

to the article, but I do think we just had a moment just in the last couple of weeks of this narcissism that you're talking about on display in the public coming from a politician and i'm talking about alexandria ocasio-cortez so she has been highly critical of the the republican states and republican governors who have opened up their states and decided they're not going to live in fear with all these COVID phobia. And when she got, I'm sorry, say that again? Vaccine mandates or mask mandates. Yes, yes, yes. Sorry. And so she took a trip, hypocritically, I would say, and many did, to Florida, to beautiful sunshine in the free state of Florida. And while she was there, people took pictures of her because she was maskless, and she was enjoying all the things that she criticized Governor DeSantis for. And so people

called her out on Twitter. Some of them were conservative men who called her out, Steve Cortez, who said that leftists like her were unmasked and enjoying Florida and why aren't you back in your district and that sort of thing. And her response was, if Republicans are mad, they can't date me. They can just say that instead of projecting their sexual frustrations onto my boyfriend's feet, because I guess there was a comment about her very pale boyfriend and his Birkenstocks. And then she called all the Republicans creepy weirdos. Do you think that that falls into what you're talking about in terms of this narcissism that's playing out in politics on the left?

Let me think about that for a moment. Yes. Yes, I do. I mean, it's... Break it down for us, John. I know. Okay. Well, I mean, it's not very hard, is it?

This is Heathers. This is the movie Heathers. This is mean girl stuff, okay? And this is not the first time, obviously, that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has shown this side of her character. It is an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. And the reason why I focused on female narcissism in the last show, even though I believe that narcissism affects both sexes and both sexes are expressing a surfeit of it right now,

is because I believe that in our era, it hasn't always been this way, but it is this way today. In our era, the kind of self-regarding, vain, pompous, self-important posturing that is really off-putting to people is something that women get away with in public an awful lot, and particularly on the left. There's this idea that, well, women have been oppressed and women didn't always have equal status, etc., etc. So, Women didn't always have equal status, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, now we can have anything, right? And apparently we can do anything and we can say anything. It doesn't matter how mean it is. It doesn't matter how unfair it is.

It doesn't matter if it's actually hurting our own children. As long as we are presenting an image of a self-actualizing woman, we expect slay queen, you go girl, girl boss. So yeah, I mean, that's Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to a T. And Josh, I think you make a good point because I was in Congress for nine years. And when you're in public service, you're criticized and you're criticized often. Yes. If I had done something as stupid and hypocritical as AOC, and I have a long list of stupid things I've done, but if I had then come on and said, listen, you are just calling me out as a hypocrite. Just sexually frustrated. You want to date me.

Because you want to date me. Everyone, conservatives and liberals would lose their minds. Yeah. And they'd laugh at you. They would laugh at me. They would mock me. And by the way, the right wouldn't defend me. at you. They would laugh at me. They would mock me. And by the way, the right wouldn't defend me.

They would mock me with the left because it would be such a stupid, ridiculous thing for me to say as opposed to engaging in the debate. But here, AOC is able to do it and actually kind of get away with it from the left. But it's also similar, I think, in the story that Rachel brought this conversation in on where the woman is making a decision to pursue her happiness, right? If a man made that decision and left his wife because he's like, she's standing in my way to pursue my dreams, I don't think any of the feminists who are celebrating this author would be down with a man just pulling up and going, I want to go in a different direction, baby. I'm going to leave you with three kids and off I go. They'd be like, I'm a pompous pig. Yeah. And they would. It's a double standard. Absolutely. And they would say,

you're a deadbeat dad. You're irresponsible. You walk out. And they would be right. They would be correct. And so is Honor Jones. And so is Honor Jones. And when I started talking about this in the run-up to our episode, where we went into this in detail, I will say a lot of people I saw on social media absolutely reacted the way the three of us did. They found this to be really beyond the pale. But of course, there were a great number of women, leftist women almost exclusively, and women who I think would probably style themselves as feminists, who were reacting to my criticism of this by calling me a misogynist, me a chauvinist, me an unreconstructed male pig. I mean, it is absolutely ridiculous to this set, to this set of women. And this set of women is really common on the left right now. I'm sorry, it's not just a few of them.

It's not everybody, but it isn't just a few. To this set of women, there is nothing, how do I want to put this? You know, for a group of people who say men don't treat women as full adults, they don't treat them as if they have agency and the ability to take personal responsibility, et cetera, et cetera. I see that same characteristic in these women. Because when I hold a woman to the same standard that I would hold a man, and what bothers me the most about Honor Jones is the effect on her children, because it reminds me of

what I grew up with, right? That, you know, they say, well, she's only doing that because she's been oppressed by a man or a man hurt her and you can't blame her. She's just reacting. There's always an excuse. And the excuse is always a man did it to me. I'm not the one taking away agency from women.

That sounds like it's coming from their side. Yeah. Wait right there. We'll have more of this conversation next. Breaking news coming in from Bet365, where every nail-biting overtime win, breakaway, pick six, three-point shot, underdog win, buzzer beater, shootout, walk-off, and absolutely every play in between is amazing. From football to basketball and hockey to baseball, whatever the moment, it's never ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19 or older, Ontario only.

Please play responsibly. If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. It's so interesting. You're right, there is a double standard. And absolutely, if Sean had written that article and had abandoned, you know, broken up his family with no,

you know, abuse or reason or alcohol. There was nothing in there, by the way. It was just, you know, the need to find himself. If that had happened,

people would say, and I'm going to say a word. Am I allowed to say people would say you were an a**hole? Whoa, whoa, whoa. Maybe we'll have to beat that out, but that's what people would say.

I think it's interesting because in the article, I get the sense, whoa, whoa. Maybe we'll have to beat that out. But that's what people would say. I think it's interesting because in the article, I get the sense, Josh, and I don't know if, Sean, if you and Josh both feel this way,

I get a sense that there is a feeling of guilt that she has. But I think she thinks that by talking about it and acknowledging it and wrapping it up in what you say

is girl power, that she's absolved of it. And there's no question that as she describes the kids and as she, I think, tries to show the kids are okay, anybody who's had kids certainly or been around kids or anybody with a heart would see that that had, I mean, your heart was just breaking for them the whole time you were reading the story. And what's going to happen? Right. Yes, Rachel.

What's going to happen when these kids read this? I think we know what's going to happen. I talked about this on my show last week. When I was a kid, part of the psychological character of people like my mother, and I believe that my mother has both borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. There's an incredible insecurity psychologically in people like this. The bravado, the sass, the backtalk, all of this is a cover for a really deep fear of emptiness inside a person.

When I was a kid, I think my mother was conflicted as well. She would say on one day, the only thing I wanted to do with my life was to be a mother. I'm so glad I had you kids. And it would feel nice. And the next day when she was in a bad mood, she'd be pacing across the dining room floor, chain smoking and complaining about how she could have been somebody if she hadn't been chained at home taking care of you gosh darn kids. She didn't say gosh darn. I can tell you that as a child, what you hear in this is she loved me last night, but she doesn't love me tonight. Is she saying she wishes I hadn't been born? You know, and like, I don't know what goes on in honor Jones's household.

I don't know anything about her except what I saw represented in the story. So I can't speculate about that. But if this is a mother who is willing to use a major publication, I mean, I can't even believe The Atlantic published this to begin with. I mean, I just want to know what happened at that editorial meeting. You know, if she's willing to lay this out in detail to the tune of what looked to me like about eight to 10 pages in a magazine spread, what else is she willing to do? Is there anything, any negative thought about motherhood that she keeps from her children? These messages stay with children and they damage them. It's not just they don't feel nice the day mommy says it. They create psychological insecurities

that can last a lifetime. No doubt. And I think what's interesting just in today's culture with the voyeurism of reality TV, of sharing probably too much of your life that should be personal, that has been popularized with social media, but also the reality TV genre. And here she is participating in this article. But here's what I found interesting. Rachel and I have been married for 22, almost 23 years. And I'll say this often, and anyone who's been married knows that marriages are work. Marriages aren't always

roses and tulips and unicorns, except with Rachel. They're not. And people have to work at them and they have to talk through issues that you have. And you're two people that decide to get married with God in the relationship as well, hopefully. And you chart a course together and you have kids and you got to talk and you got to compromise and you got to be honest and you'll fight. And I think if you stick through it, which is why I think marriage is so great, if you stick through it and you work through it, it's a really beautiful thing. I think there's no greater institution in America than a marriage if you stick it through. But great things come from hard work and marriage is hard work. When I read her story, I wonder,

did you think it was worth it to try to fight for your marriage and for your kids? Did you try to fight for your family? Did you talk to your husband? Did you say, listen, I have these passions, I have these dreams, and maybe it wasn't this farmhouse. How do I be more fulfilled myself, How do I be more fulfilled myself, but also stick this through and work this through with you? Because as she said, I love you and I love my kids. But she loves herself more. And that's the point. Yes.

But that's the point of this, Sean, that we are in this self-love culture right now. Self-love, self-care, that's what's going on right now. And in fact, Jason Whitlock said sentence by sentence, this piece is selfish and satanic. That's what Jason Whitlock said, Sean. So maybe this is my question though. We're all looking for happiness, right? We all want to be happy. And I think she's saying, this move I'm making is going to make me happy. The voyeurism of sharing the story is going to make me happy. And I look at it and go, hell no, that's not going to make you happy. You're going to be more depressed, less fulfilled by making this move, as opposed to sticking this out and working it through. Happiness doesn't come from sticking your head in the sun and the raw wind of life in your face.

No, it comes from raising your kids and building a family and a relationship. I think that, and this is my- So that's such a great question. So Josh, is that that she's just like a hopeless narcissist or is there something in the culture that is also feeding her to make that decision? I think it's, I think it's both, and I'm speaking generally, you know, this is, you know,

we're using Honor Jones as an example here, but she's, she isn't unique. I, I think that over the past 30 to 40 years, we have seen an explosion in narcissistic traits. So when I talk about this stuff on the show. Why are we seeing this explosion? A big question and a lot of people have a lot of different answers to it. we were convinced or we decided as a society in the mid-20th century that pursuit of selfish interests, self-actualization, right, even that term gives me squeaky feelings, was the highest and most noble possible goal. And that institutions and traditions like marriage, child-rearing, staying together for the sake of the kids,

absent abuse. I'm not saying anybody should stay in an actual dangerous, abusive marriage. I totally agree with that. Great point. But most people aren't getting divorced because of a dangerous, abusive situation. They're getting divorced because it's easy and it looks like it'll be fun. Somehow we decided that these things were more important and we denigrated and I did did this too. Okay. I'm not one of these people who I was raised by a single mother. I mean, there was, my stepfather was in the house until I was about eight years old. He was actually incredibly violent and a very dangerous man and needed to be excised from the house. But I mean, you know, my parents, it was destined to fail. It was destined to bring misery. There wasn't any way that they

could have done it right. But, you know, so I was raised in a single parent household and I absorbed my mother's resentment about the world. Everything that was wrong was not my mother's fault. It was someone else's fault. didn't understand her. They didn't appreciate her or they talked bad about her. They talked her down. Everybody was a bastard. Everybody was horrible, et cetera, et cetera. And especially men, especially men. So everything that went wrong in our house had to be somebody else's fault. And I absorbed a lot of that when I was younger. And I'm sorry to say this, but I see that self-pitying, I didn't do anything wrong, it was everybody else. I see it absolutely suffused throughout the mainstream left. And I don't just mean politics, I mean our culture as well, how we live. I think it's a very big problem. I think that's a great point because even kids in school that, you know, they misbehave and teachers are angry at the kids for misbehaving. Parents will come to the defense of the child as a child to scolding the child with the teacher to go, hey, listen, that's not the way we behave.

Everything's the fault of the man or systemic racism or, you know, there's other there's we do see it played out in politics, in this victim culture, in this glorifying of victims. Which again, the victim culture means no one takes responsibility. And when you take responsibility, you can write your wrong. You can, you can apologize and then you can try to be better and do better. But if you, if you're never at fault, where is there any self-reflection? I'm always right. Well isn't going to be any because regardless of why and how it started, where we are now, here's the reality. Think of this in economic terms. Being a victim in today's culture pays a very high salary in social currency. You make bank being a victim today because what do you get? Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, why did they oppress you that way? Oh, it's because you're gay. Oh, it's because you're

trans. Oh, it's because you're a woman. Oh, it's because you're of color. Oh, it's because of this. It's always everybody else. And when we are trained and we have trained ourselves and we've trained people around us, we take satisfaction and enjoyment out of being pitied and being seen as a victim that encourages us, all of us. It happens to all of us, even people who are trying to be conscious of this. We have got to stop paying for this. Lower the salary for victimhood. Some of the richest people I know have this sort of victim trope that they do. So think about Michelle Obama. I think the luckiest woman in America.

And yet, if you talk to her, it's just like she's a victim. Meghan Markle is another really great example of that. Even Oprah. I mean, although she's a little bit of a mixed bag, I get some empowering stuff from her, but then she also sort of likes to, I don't know, wallow in a lot of this racist- And Josh, if you can't claim victim status, like the examples Rachel just gave, you got to manufacture it. So think of Elizabeth Warren, Rachel just gave, you got to manufacture it. So think of Elizabeth Warren with this scheme that she's a Native American to get a job at Harvard, run for the Senate, stand up the CFPB, the Consumer

Financial Protection Bureau. All the while, she's a very, very white woman from Boston, Massachusetts, claiming to be a minority and having minority status. Claiming to be a Native American. Gave her power and gave her access to something that she probably wouldn't have gotten had she been just a regular old white lady from, I think, what, Oklahoma? Yeah, probably. Do you guys remember when... Regular old Cherokee.

Yeah, exactly. Do you guys remember recently when Land O'Lakes took the Indian maiden picture off the Butterbots? I won't buy Land O'Lakes anymore. I know, but actually, I was at the store the other day and I was shocked because I was sure I was going to see Elizabeth Warren on there. I think that's what she was going for. She wanted to be the new butter maiden.

And also they got rid of Aunt Jemima. I know. We can't even talk about Aunt Jemima. Don't talk about her. How is the answer to, well, first of all, I don't even believe the claim. The claim is that there's no representation of people of color. Are you kidding me? It's in 2021. and our recognition as full citizens is driven by things like how many of us are represented on a butter box or a rights box is silly. But honestly, if we are to believe that the problem is lack of representation, how does it make any sense to invisible Aunt Jemima and invisible Uncle Ben and invisible the butter maiden? I don't get it.

I don't get that either. But just, I mean, I want to make a point of clarification for me. When I was in Congress, I had, not on purpose, but I had a time where I had all men that worked for me. Another time I had all women that worked for me. The best balance is when you have men and women because they think differently, different experiences, different backgrounds, different viewpoints. I'm in the business of politics. And so I want different perspectives to make sure I'm thinking through the needs and concerns of my constituents. And business is no different. Good business means I have a wide array of thoughts that are on the table to make sure that I'm cultivating a product that everybody wants to buy. But that's far different than manufacturing these crises that take place with, again, Enchimamo or with butter.

We'll be right back with much more after this. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions. And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. Josh, let me bring it back then to this whole idea of unbridled female narcissism.

is that this narcissism, this mental, I don't know, state is taking over the entire culture. It's taking over politics and it's impacting the way we live. What concerns you the most when you see it? Is it how it plays out in politics because of the policies that we're seeing or the celebrity nature of politicians like AOC. What is it that concerns you the most about how this thing that you're identifying, this self-love, this unbridled, taken to an extreme, unbridled female narcissism, what is your assessment of how it's going to impact us? What worries you the most? It's already affecting us. We're in it. We're already in the dystopia. It's not coming. We're here. We are living in a world where people take no responsibility for themselves. On the episode of Disaffected that's coming out Sunday night, we've got a case

out of Florida where a jury in a murder trial refused to convict the defendant simply on the grounds that he was a black man and they did not want to send a black man to life in prison simply because he was black and it's not fair to do that to a black man. It wasn't guilt or innocence. It wasn't guilt or innocence. That's right. We are living in a world where, and I'll tell you, this is where you can see, I'm sure both of you, why none of my former feminist friends will speak to me. I wonder why, Josh. Right. Is that a bad thing? I think it's a bad thing when we split off into warring tribes, but they don't want any of me and I don't want any of what they're serving either. But I really do think, contra

the idea that we are given in the media that this is a patriarchy, that's laughable, first of all, utterly laughable and insulting to women who live in countries in the world that actually are violently patriarchal. Number two, not only are we not living in a patriarchy, I believe that we are living in an extraordinarily feminized culture and an extraordinarily feminized politics. I agree with that 100%. The politics and the culture and the policies are those of what psychological types will sometimes call the archetype of the devouring mother, the enmeshed mother, the mother who must control and nurture you to death.

So we've got the CDC. We've got the teachers' unions. We've got mask the kids, mask the kids. Everybody be safe. Everybody be safe. You hear this is couched in language that is quasi-maternal. We are trying to keep you safe. We're trying to do what's best for you.

This, that, and the other thing. It's not mothering. It's smothering. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Sean. No, no, no. Keep going.

I mean, I could keep going on, but I don't think I can. I think it's so interesting. I mean, I could keep going on, but I don't think I can. I think it's so interesting. Josh, to that point, Rachel and I have noticed, as we have kids of all ages, when we go to a graduation ceremony and you look at who are the kids that are getting the academic achievement awards. Even middle school graduation. Middle school, high school, oftentimes college. And again, you have boys and girls that go to the same school with similar parents. And I would say I see 90% of the academic awards are going to girls and not boys.

And if there was a time that 90% of boys were getting the awards, you might go, well, how do we modify the way we teach to make sure we're teaching to both males and females? Because I think they learn differently. But here, I think they've just transitioned and this is a... That's why I agree with his assessment....female style of teaching. And the boys are being left behind. And frankly, they sit at home and they're playing video games. And as Rachel will say, we're not raising boys that girls want to marry any longer, which I think is true. And maybe what I'm, this is coming to my point to ask you is, isn't this really about parents? If we're living in this narcissistic culture,

and again, our daughter wrote an article for The Federalist about a song that Addison Rae wrote, she's a TikTok star. And the line is, I'm obsessed with me as much as you. Say you die for me, I die for me too. I mean, again, this is the celebration. But it's that go girl thing that you're talking about that excludes boys often. And right, so is this really about parents recognizing this in culture, in kids, and snuffing it out?

You're not going to be a victim. You're going to take responsibility. Or you're not going to be a narcissist. Maybe need to volunteer somewhere. But you're not going to be a narcissist. Maybe you need to volunteer somewhere. Yes, it is. Someone else. Yeah, it is about parents. But what happens when the parents are narcissists?

What happens when it's the parents who have borderline personality disorder? Then we're in trouble. Yes, it is the parenting. But it's everything and it's all interconnected and it sort of cycles around like a wheel. So you try to figure out, okay, which spoke of this wheel am I going to grab to stop the wheel from going around? I could grab it this one. I could grab it this one. I don't know the answer to this, but parents, I think, I don't have children, but I was one. And obviously I

spend a great deal of time thinking about child development. Parents, I think, need to go back to some traditional practices. Number one, they need to remember that they are not their child's friend. You are not your kid's friend, and you are not supposed to be their friend. That doesn't mean that you are their enemy. You are their guardian. Number two, parents need to remember that they are, I get, even with people I agree with when they talk about the ways that schools are alienating parents from their children and schools are trying to take over that parental role. And I agree with the parents who object to

it, but I cringe at the language and they say, parents' rights, parental rights, this is my kid, my kid. Let me ask you to think about it slightly differently. I don't like to hear about parental rights. I would rather hear about parental duties and moral responsibilities. Parents have the right. Yes, they do. It is a fact. They have the right to decide on the care and schooling of their children. But writ large, the concept, parents don't own, you don't own your kid. That's not your kid. No one else owns them either. You are in a position, you made a choice when you had children and you made a moral commitment. And that moral commitment is you are going to nurture and develop that child. And if that means saying no to them, sometimes even when they hate you and throw a pillow at you, then you say no to them. Don't indulge their every whim. Stop driving them to school when they live three quarters of a mile away. Stop running them to every mall, every dance recital, every this, every that. And for goodness sake, stop telling them they're the most special and precious thing in the world.

And I don't mean be mean to your kids. I just mean be normal. That's one of the benefits of having, listen, having a large family. You know, we have nine children and there are, you know, some of our kids love that they're in a huge family. Some of them wish they were only single child. There's ups, there's downs. But one of the things that does not happen when you're in a family as large as ours is you do not think that you're the center of the universe. It's impossible. And so this whole like, you know, precious little raising little kings and queens, it doesn't happen. We love our children. What did you say? We don't have time for that.

We don't have time for that. But, we don't have time for that. But yeah, I think that's right. But also, coming back to the article by Honor Jones, it's not just saying no to your kids. Sometimes it's saying no to your own desires, right? Yes, absolutely. So Josh, as we think through this, if you look at it societally and family-wise, I don't imagine narcissists are happy. In the end, you might think you're going to be happy, but really you're probably miserable if you're a narcissist and only consumed with yourself. This is a newer phenomenon. Maybe is it grandparents need to knock some sense into their kids who are parenting the grandkids about the narcissism? And how do we, what's the fix? AOC's abuelita is in Puerto Rico.

I don't think she can help her. Who didn't have a loophole for her head and AOC wouldn't help her as she drives around in her Tesla. What's the answer? How do we fix this? I don't know. I talk about this a lot because I think the first step is we need to identify accurately what we're seeing. And there's a lot of fluff and nonsense that we talk about that. And I like to cut to the quick and get to it. My hope is that as more people talk about this, like three of us are talking right now,

that during those conversations, that interchange, we're going to come up with those ideas. We're going to figure out, okay, what, what are the steps here and who, who needs to perform these steps? I don't know the answer to that, but I, I will say, I'm, I'm sorry to say this, but this is going to be a long-term project. It took a long time to get here and it's going to take a long time to get out. So when we talk about narcissism that rises to the level of a personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, okay? By the time…

Are you born with that or does that develop over time? You're saying this is just developing in an individual? I believe it's, like most things, I believe it's a combination of nature and nurture. But the literature on trauma and child development is very clear that child abuse and child neglect and sometimes overvaluation and spoiling of children can have the same effect. Environment has a lot to do with it. This is parents are responsible for this. I'm sorry. Yes, you are.

do with it. Parents are responsible for this. I'm sorry. Yes, you are. Once a person gets fully personality disordered, most of them don't change. Some will, but no, it's not like your friend with depression. It's not like your friend with anxiety who has mild bouts and they come and go. That's why it's called a personality disorder. They used to be called character disorders. This is the deep, dark you of you. So there are a lot of these people who are going to have to go through the rest of their lives being this way. How do we stop them from influencing the next generation? I think we need to talk about this. I think we need to recognize that there is such a thing as narcissistic personality disorder, and it is more common than it was 30 years ago. And I think it's important, Josh, when I'm listening to you,

I think some people listening might say, oh, they're bashing on women. And I think it's really important that we note what you're saying is that it can happen in both sexes, but culturally right now, it's being excused in women. That is correct. It's being wrapped up in girl power. It's being excused in women. That is correct. It's being wrapped up in girl power.

We're celebrating people like AOC and Michelle Obama and Meghan Markle, and they're all getting very rich off of engaging in these bad behaviors. Kamala Harris. I think it's fascinating because the rising stars on the left are women. Yes. And so they are having an impact. I know you mentioned parents. I think you're spot on with that, that we have to be aware of what's happening in the culture to try and form our kids and move them in a different direction. But I don't think you can underestimate the power of the phone. Because if you were just to scroll through Instagram, Josh,

it's terrible. It's terrible. It's all about- Everyone is self-absorbed. It's so self-absorbed. It's all about makeup videos and hair videos. And that's what our kids all watch. It's all like, how many likes did I get?

It's all very, it's almost designed to bring out the worst in people. I believe it is designed to bring out, and it happens to adults too, and it's affecting adults. It affects me. It affects anybody who plays around there. Yeah, there are equal,

when we're talking about this kind of mental pathology, there is an equal number of men and women who exhibit these personality styles, these disorders, and these traits. They are not sex specific. There are some differences in how they get expressed typically by sex, but there are just as many narcissistic men as there are narcissistic women. You're correct. And I'm really glad you said that, Rachel, because I think we're at the end of a pendulum swing here. A friend of mine said to me the other day, hey, you were talking about

that Honor Jones article and how no man could write that. She said, but think back to the 60s and 70s when Playboy was new. You had this absolute glut of self-absorbed men writing about their sexcapades and how they treated their secretaries, and they were doing the male version of the same thing. She's absolutely right. That was really common in the Mad Men era. I think our pendulum has swung and I think it's up to the peak on the other side right now. And it may come back. And for goodness sake, I hope it can stay closer to the middle. You know, this again, it's not, this is not about saying women as women have something fundamentally wrong with them. I am not saying that. I am saying right now, women are just as capable of being manipulative and toxic as men are, but right now they are getting away with it and they're actually getting cuddles and hugs when people won't put up with

their nonsense. People are actually calling the reaction and the pushback, they're calling the pushback abuse. You're abusing me. You're not listening to me. No, I'm just not putting up with you. Yeah, that's the manipulative language that you're talking about. That's the victim manipulative language. This whole thing is very fascinating, especially because we have kids. This article by Honor Jones, if you haven't read it, you got to be in the mood to read it because it does leave you very depressed and very surprised that so many women feel empowered by this very depressing, sad story. But I think coming from politics, it's been very fascinating to talk to you, Josh, and put this into a context. You've had that episode, as we talked about, with AOC saying everyone wants her.

as we talked about with AOC, you know, saying everyone wants her. Now, every time a politician, I've been on, by the way, Twitter and people are, every time someone's critical of them, they go, oh, you just want me. Like she's kind of created this kind of mocking thing. But I think that to understand what's going on in politics, what's going on in culture, what's going on on Instagram, and so much of it is wrapped up in some of the harmless self-love, self-care stuff can actually transition to something very toxic. I think it makes for bad friends. It makes for bad spouses and bad employees. When people are absorbed with themselves, I mean, they're not cool, fun people to hang out with because it's all about them. And relationships are give and take on all these fronts, right?

And so hopefully we get through this. And again, I just as a parent too, Josh, and Rachel and I have a conversation about this all the time because kids are on social media, that's where they communicate, that's where the action is. And to take it away from them is really hard, but then to limit it is really hard as well. And Rachel and I struggle with this with our own kids on what is right balance and how do you stop it, limit it. But I think the first thing for parents, though, is to recognize it is a real threat to your kids, whether it's the self-absorbed nature of the platforms, but also the leftist, socialist socialist communist feed that they get to the platform really lots are kids. And as parents recognize it. And then by the way, if anyone, any of our listeners has some great ideas on how we navigated ourselves as parents, because we're trying to figure it out. We don't have the silver bullet. Please share it because it's hard as a parent. Josh, you know, I want to just also congratulate you before we go here because

as I listened to your podcast and I'm a fan of yours, I am really impressed by how you've really put, you've gone deep inside yourself and you've shared that with the world. And I think a lot of people are benefiting from that. I know that probably wasn't really easy, especially at first. But I think that honesty that you bring to conversations, as well as the knowledge, you've clearly done a lot of work and tried to understand so many of these things that happened to you and the pathologies that surrounded you. But I think you're a really courageous person. And I just really wanted to say that to you. Well, thank you. That's very kind. And the fact that you two have invited me on to talk about this, that you recognize this with the platform that you have as a major problem we need to talk about, that makes me feel really good because sometimes it feels like being Cassandra or the boy who cried wolf. I'm not the only person who talks about these things, but those of us who do, we're kind of a limited circle. And the fact that you guys are bringing

this up is saying, hey, we general public and we parents, we need to talk about it too. We absolutely need it. Thank you for doing it. And thank you for asking me to talk about it with you. Well, Josh, we're grateful that you would join us today as well. And take time out of your schedule and chat with us at the kitchen table. As we tell everyone, once we get through this pandemic, or if we wanted to still call it a pandemic, Rachel may not call it a pandemic, the COVID cough, the COVID cold, we want to have you at our actual kitchen table over a cup of coffee.

Oh, I cannot wait. That would be really fun instead of this virtual cup of coffee that we're having through our podcast. But I'm really honored that you would join us. And I think it's been very enlightening. I'm sure we're sparking lots of little, you know, rain lights going on in people's heads

as they're thinking about their own lives, their own kids, their own marriages, and what's going on in our culture. And it's people like you who shine some light on it and get us all thinking about it because these things actually matter. So Josh, thank you so much for joining us around the kitchen table. Thank you, Josh. We've enjoyed the conversation. And if you did too, definitely let us know. Subscribe, rate, review this podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you download podcasts. We hope to see you around the kitchen table next week.

Listen to the all new Brett Baer podcast featuring Common Ground. In-depth talks with lawmakers from opposite sides of the aisle, along with all your Brett Baer favorites, like his all-star panel and much more. Available now at foxnewspodcasts.com or wherever you get your podcasts.