From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - Restoring America's Faith With Kirk Cameron

Episode Date: December 15, 2022

On this episode, Sean and Rachel sit down with Actor, and star of the 1980s sitcom Growing Pains, and Author of the new book As You Grow Kirk Cameron, to discuss his discovery of faith, and how that guided him through the entertainment industry.   Kirk discusses the power of religion and his belief that the country needs to return to Biblical values. Later, he explains the controversy behind public libraries across America refusing to host his story hour. Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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t's and z's apply hey everyone welcome to from the kitchen table i'm seanuffy, along with my co-host for the podcast, my partner in life, my wife, and my life, Rachel Campos Duffy. Thank you, Sean. Always great to be back at our kitchen table. And today, we have a great guest. Boy, do we have a great guest. We're joined by one of the stars of my favorite 80s sitcom.

And you know I'm an 80s girl, Growing Veins. He's also the author of the new children's book, As You Grow. Kirk Cameron, welcome to the kitchen table. Thank you. So great to be coming to the kitchen table. Great to be talking with the two of you. And I love how you honor one another and just lift up your marriage and you guys prioritize family and your faith. And I'm just happy to know you guys and to be in your marriage and you guys prioritize family and your faith. And I'm just happy to know you guys and to be in the fight with you. Yeah, we certainly are in the fight together. So, you know, you mentioned faith.

And I didn't realize until I was studying about you, Kirk, that you were, I just assumed because you're such a strong Christian man with such an amazing Christian family that you were always a Christian. But it's in this thing that I read, it said that you were an atheist. So I just thought before we get into the book and the incredible controversy, I mean, it's gone viral, your book and the fact that you couldn't read it inside of a public library. Before we get into all of that, I just want to hear a little bit about your own faith journey, because I was shocked that you were so late in your teens, I guess, into coming into the Christian faith. Do you mind talking about that? I don't mind at all. You know, I think even more so nowadays here in our

country, kids are growing up similar to the way that I did with parents who just didn't take them to church. I didn't go to church. I never talked about God except in some sort of a joke. I thought that Jesus was part of a different Trinity, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus. And maybe he would be the fourth member of that Trinity. So I just believed that people needed some sort of a crutch and, um, you know, it was something that helped them through life, but I didn't need that. And after all, I was on growing pains. I was, I was famous. I was making money. I had a career at 14 years old and here I am 17, 18 years old. And, and then, uh, somebody took me to church. Uh, there was an actress on the set, invited me to visit her family. And, uh, she was cute. I thought, hey, this is my opportunity

to make my move. This is my open door. And we met at church. And again, I'm an atheist going to church, but I'm also an actor. So I figured I could fake this for an hour. And I sat there with my hat and my glasses, hoping to be incognito. And I left the church with all sorts of questions like, wow, that guy was really smart. He was really intelligent. He read from the Bible, which I thought was this ancient book filled with commandments and rules to remove all the fun from your life for religious people. But he talked about the creation of the universe. So he was talking science. He was talking philosophy. He was talking morality when he was speaking of good and evil. And he was speaking of meaning and destiny as he talked about all of us heading for a six foot hole. And one day we would die and stand before the creator, whether we believed in him or not, to give a moral account of our life. to give a moral account of our life. And I thought, wow, if that's true, then I'm in trouble because I don't even believe in this whole creator thing. And if he creates the air that I breathe,

I've essentially been trespassing and stealing for the last 17 years. And I've never once said thank you or asked permission to do any of the things that I do that are violating his own property rights. Does that make sense? I mean, I was thinking these things. And I thought, well, you know, let's get some answers to questions. And so someone gave me a couple of great books. And I found myself sitting in my sports car parked on the side of the road one afternoon. And I thought, if I died today and found out that there is a heaven, I know that I would not be going there.

And so I thought I would talk to God. I didn't know how to do it, but I saw everybody close their eyes when they prayed. So I did. And I asked God to just show me if he's real and please forgive me for the bad things I've done and make me the man he created me to be. I didn't have any theology to speak of. I couldn't have told you how Noah fit all those animals on the ark or how old the earth was. But I hoped that maybe something would be revealed to me. And I started going to another church with a friend who gave me a Bible. I began to read and discovered that you don't read the Bible. The Bible reads you

and begins to direct you toward a God who is willing to love you in the condition you're in and then love you so much that he begins to change you on the inside and actually makes you into a new creature when you come to him in humility, repentance, and faith. And I was experiencing that happening to me in the middle of the popularity of growing pains and being a 17-year-old. What time period was that? I mean, like what sort of- 1987. So was it a whole year of you kind of going through this transformation or was it longer or shorter than that? I think it was months. I think it was months of asking questions,

reading and getting answers, and then a personal step forward in faith and then watching with open eyes as God began to change me on the inside. And I like to say it this way. I lost my faith in atheism, and I gained a new view of reality. And science and all the disciplines that I loved, like science and philosophy and all that, finally began to make more sense of the world that I loved, like science and philosophy and all that, finally began to make more sense of the world that I lived in. Whereas a godless process that never had you and me in mind left us with lots and lots of questions. But a biblical worldview changed that for me. It's interesting. You're on the show. You're at the height of fame. I mean,

obviously, we all watched it. We all loved it. And then the door opens, not just to your acting career, but the door opens to go to church one day and how just saying yes to take one step to go, listen, and it might be because it's a pretty girl, right? They got a pretty girl who is going to bring me to church and how that, how God mysteriously opens doors for us to start a relationship with him. But how did, as you started to change, you started to go to church, you started to read, you started to pray. Obviously people, your castmates, people around you must have said, huh, he's behaving and speaking differently than he did last month or last year, how did,

how did, what kind of reaction did you get from the people around you at that time? Well, I, I, I, just like you said, I began to make some different decisions. And, and one of the things that I think was probably obvious to people is, you know, my language cleaned up. Um, I, I wasn't making the same jokes as I was before, which would have just been, you know, rude and inappropriate and just like a normal 17 year old hormone with feet would make. And then I started thinking to myself, wow, like I'm really part of something much bigger than me, something that goes back thousands of years in terms of its tradition and its truth. something that goes back thousands of years in terms of its tradition and its truth. And I was kind of captivated by the idea that the Bible was copied by hand in the early centuries. And I thought, you know, it would be really cool, you know, sort of motivated by my own gratitude for those who took the time to write out the entire scriptures for future generations.

Wouldn't it be cool? And I actually went and got some special legacy parchment paper. And I took time on my breaks between scenes and growing pains to write in calligraphy my own handwritten copy of the Gospel of Matthew, if you can believe it. And so I started doing that and started learning how to play the guitar so I could play some of these great praise and worship songs. And of course, that all looked really peculiar and weird to some of my castmates and friends. You know what, next we know Kirk's going to shave his head and be dressed in a monk dress. Did he join the Moonies?

None of that happened, but I discovered that there were other Christians on the set. And that was really cool. But, you know, everyone was kind of still in the closet about that because, you know, it's not really something that's welcomed out in the open. Yeah. And then there were others who really had concerns and problems, you know. Some of them, I think, were healthy concerns. Hey, what is Kurt getting into? Is he getting wrapped up in something? Is he getting sucked into a religious trap that we need to rescue him from? And then there were others that

were like, no, I know what this is. And this is going to end up being, you know, a finger pointing Pharisee who's going to claim moral high ground over us. And this is going to be celebrity muscle flexed to get his own way. And there were stories that were written about all that. And, you know, none of that was true. This was just a 17-year-old who was very graciously saved, whose eyes were opened and given the gift of faith, who wanted to live his life in a way that was going to say thank you to express how grateful I was. And I wanted the scripts on Growing Pains to honor the parents who were trusting us to be a wholesome family show and be the kind of role model for their kids that I, I know that they were hoping

I would be. So were you, were you advocating at that point, once you became a serious Christian, you're now on the show, uh, you're, you're still on the show. Are you, are you advocating with the, the writers and with the directors that, you know, maybe this isn't where, what I want to say or do, or where I think the storyline should go because you were trying to keep. Yeah. That was happening. Yes. You know, I, when you said that, when you became a serious, when you became a serious

Christian, and I think that was one of the things I did notice that happened to me. You know, sometimes when you first come to something that you're very new to and excited about, you get very serious about it. And I found that actually kind of altered my personality just a little bit because I was like, man, we're talking about heaven and hell. I mean, this is no joke, right? And so this is like sobering stuff. And so I did kind of become a serious Christian. And then I got my sense of humor back after a little while. I didn't mean it like that though, Kirk. I meant like somebody who takes it seriously, but I get what you're saying. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, because you got some pretty, you know, people jump into veganism or the carnivore diet and they get super serious about it, right? This is like life or death stuff. But then I got my sense of humor back. And yes, I was advocating for wholesome storylines and character decisions. And when I felt like something didn't line up with what we had put out there for the audience, in terms of being a wholesome show, I would, I try to lobby for that. Hey, guys, how about instead of saying this, I say that, hey, instead of instead of having my 17 year old character, sleeping in bed with this girl, waking waking up in the morning not knowing her name, how about we go in a different direction that's really going to make parents applaud rather than lament? And sometimes that was met with, who do you think you are?

Hey, wait a minute. We're the producers. You're the actor. We write the lines. You just say them. And not all of the producers said that, but some of them were, some of them even went on to say that, you know, Kirk had the audacity to call us pornographers or pedophiles, which I never did. But, but ironically, even though I never called them that, one of the producers was actually committed and he was charged guilty of dealing with pornography. I mean, it was just awful, horrible. And this was

one of the producers of Growing Pains. So it was a time of spiritual growth for me and character convictions for me. And I think that's what really set my trajectory to be somebody who wanted to stand strong in the midst of cultural storms, moral wins, and the things that we're experiencing today. And I'm so thankful for that. And today, I think Hollywood is so much more- I know. Everything that you probably were fighting against in the 80s probably seems super wholesome now in comparison. But you go back to the early 90s. And so you're like, okay, I'm finishing up with Growing Pains.

Obviously, this was an amazing show. I have amazing success. I have a really bright acting future ahead of us or ahead of me. But I also have this other, I mean, I want to pursue my faith. And today, people of faith seem to be excluded from Hollywood. Was that a choice that you had to make in the early 90s where you're saying, listen, I can pursue acting or I can pursue my faith, but I really can't do both because Hollywood won't allow- Or within the normal Hollywood track.

Right. Yeah. That's a really good question and a great insight that you're drawing there, because it does seem obvious to us now that you have to make sort of a choice, right? Because if not, you will be categorized and blacklisted over here as one of these type of people. But that wasn't obvious to me at 17 years old. I simply thought that I had discovered something that just turned the lights on and now I can see everything more clearly thought that I had discovered something that just turned the lights on. And now I can see everything more clearly. And I didn't think that that would have any major impact on my career. Just like today, if you were to say, well, wow, somebody finally discovered mental health. They were unhealthy before they discovered mental health.

Do they now need to sort of lock that in a closet in order to have a successful career? No, you would say, this is actually going to help your career or emotional health or physical health. You'd say, wow, I've finally gotten myself in shape. There'd be no reason to think that you'd need to hide that. Well, I didn't think finding spiritual health would hinder me at all. And I started sharing that with people. Hey, did you know that Christmas isn't just about Santa Claus? It's like God became flesh. He came in a manger and I didn't know this, but you can have your first sins forgiven just like me. And you can find eternal life. And there really is a God. I mean, I thought, hey, who doesn't want this news? And then I was like,

oh, I guess not everybody does. In fact, they're kind of, you know, intimidated by it. And then I learned that, you know, this is some, you have to make some choices here. And, you know, I wanted to say, look, I think it's, you got to be healthy in both body, mind and spirit. And if you're not, you're not, you're not a whole person. And so I'm not going to stick parts of me away and in a closet because these are the very things that are going to help me be a good father, a good husband, and make wise decisions with my career. We'll have more of this conversation after this. Two freshly cracked eggs any way you like them. Three strips of naturally smoked bacon and a side of toast. Only $6 at A&W's in Ontario.

Experience A&W's classic breakfast on now. Dine-in only until 11 a.m. You know, what's interesting to me is, and it's always fascinated me about you, Kirk, is it was not a phase for you. I mean, you have been consistently that person that was so excited about Jesus at 17 as you are now. I don't know how old exactly you are. I'm assuming we're around the same age since I had a crush on you in

high school. So I'm assuming we're close in age. I'm amazed at how consistent you've been. And I have to believe based on your life, based on the interviews I've done with you, the interviews I've seen of you and this new project with Brave Books, that you are experiencing the same thing Sean and I are experiencing as parents. That we really can't believe how quickly the culture is deteriorating, how poisonous, how dangerous, spiritually speaking, things are for our children at this moment. Yeah. Well, I'd love to speak to both of those things, my consistency or apparent consistency, and then how quickly the culture turns. So you both can relate to this, I know, because you're genuine in your faith. And you know probably as well as I do that the only thing that's really consistent about me in my faith walk is that I always have a need to repent. I always have a need to say, thank you, God, that you didn't treat me today according to my sins yesterday.

Because if you did, this story ends in tragedy. But you're constantly kind. Your mercies are new for me every morning. And I'm fully dependent upon that. Now, the great news, though, is that in my consistent inconsistency as a Christian, when you step back and look at it from the hundred thousand foot view, you see that there is a continuity of faithfulness. When God begins a work in you, he's faithful to complete it. He's both the author and the finisher of our faith. And so while there may be ups and downs, just like the stock market, if you step back and look at it over time, the trajectory of a true Christian will be moving upwards. And that's what I see, which only gives me more reason to say, thank you, God. Because if you weren't partnering

with me in this, this trajectory would be going downward. I always tell people when I sometimes will meet people who say they're almost like they're like, I'm a Christian, but maybe they're embarrassed about like saying it because they they do feel like they've maybe they know that I know something about that they did or something. And I always say, listen, the only requirement or criteria to be a Christian is to be a sinner. If you're not a sinner, this religion really isn't for you. Or if you think you're not, there's no purpose in this religion unless we all are humble enough to know that we sin and we can get better. So talk to me about that second part. The culture. The culture. So let me,

if you don't mind, just put a bow on that last point. My pastor at the time that I became a Christian and people were talking about it in Hollywood said to me, Kirk, if anybody ever asks you, how did you find God in Hollywood? Let me remind you, you didn't find God. He wasn't lost. He, you were, you were lost and he found you. Yes. And that's very, very, very important. Kirk, can I ask a quick question?

Just because that just made me thinking about this ever since you started talking about your journey. Did your family, I know your sister is, is a very publicly, you know, out there with her faith and her Christianity, but did other members in your family, I mean, did they convert as well? No, although my mom went to church as a little girl and always considered herself to be a Christian. She went to Sunday school and raised her hand to accept Jesus into her heart, and she always believed in God and heaven. But we never went to church because my dad was an atheist. Now, my dad's not a bad guy. He's later come to faith in the Lord, as well as my other sisters.

And I even had a chance to baptize my own father about 10 years ago, which was just a real honor. So with regard to the culture, great question. You say, wow, we see how quickly it's happened. Let me tell you a quick story. I'm looking in my backyard right now, out the window of my living room, and there's a pile of chopped up wood from a beautiful oak tree that used to be growing right next to this pile. And somebody came over and said, yeah, you got a problem. You know, you're not supposed to have lawn underneath this California oak tree. It's not healthy for them. And I didn't know that. It was that way when I bought the house. But for 20 or 30 years, water had been rotting the roots of this oak tree. And you'd think water is good and the tree looks fine. But after about 30 years, the damage finally manifested. What was happening deep within the trunk of that tree and under the ground where I couldn't see finally began to show up when the leaves were turning brown and dying. And sure enough, the entire tree died and it had to be

cut down or it was going to fall on my house and cause even more problems. And that's what I think when I look at America, our founders told us 250 years ago. And if you go back to the pilgrims, 400 years ago, they said the same thing, that the two indispensable roots of a free Republic like ours are Christian faith in God and in his word, the Bible and morality that is doing what is right when nobody's watching really, truly loving God and loving your neighbor because you just want to. And applying that to every branch of government, of family, of education, of the marketplace. Society, community. Society. That's exactly right. And what we've done though, is we have had people intentionally saturating the soil of our foundations with woke ideas and anti-God, anti-American principles that have been rotting

the roots and poisoning the sap of the tree. And we don't see it for a few decades. We don't see it for a generation or two. But because of this, we now think all of a sudden the tree is dying and it's going to be dead and it's going to have to be removed. This is what happens when you don't take care of the roots. You start to notice the fruit is rotten. And I don't think that we're done with America. I don't think we need to chop the tree down. I think that there is hope, but we have no time to waste. We've got to get back to nourishing the root of biblical faith and true morality. Let me finish with this quote from Ronald Reagan. He said, there are some who would tell us that we must choose between the right or the left.

He said, I don't believe there's such a thing as right or left, but only up or down. Up to man's age-old dream of maximum individual liberty under law and order and the eternal principles of right, or down, ant heap of totalitarianism. And if anyone asks you to exchange your freedoms for a bit of safety, you are already headed in that downward trajectory. Oh, Ronald Reagan. You can pull Reagan quotes and he was so prolific. He was a prophet of

what was to come. We're talking about the culture and I love the analogy of your oak tree, you know, in the backyard. And I think we've known this was happening, but we thought America's too strong. Our culture is too strong. The faith in America is too great. It can never happen here. But you're right. After decades of allowing this cancer to grow in our schools and our society. Yeah, we got no more root.

The taproot has been decayed. And here's what I, and Rachel and I talk about this a lot. I can't change big tech. I can't change Hollywood. I was in Congress, Kirk, for nine years. I can't change the government. The only thing I can change is my family. I can raise good kids. I can see all the pressures, whether it's coming

from social media or from television and media or from the school system, which they professionalized indoctrinating kids. I see that and it's my job to make sure I raise good kids. I raise moral, good Christian kids that frankly are conservative because I think those things go together. And I think that there's not enough conservatives out there or Christians out there who see it as their patriotic duty to save their families. We try to save all kinds of things, but giving your kids faith, talking about freedom, talking about the country and the founding. You do those things with your kids and then they're little warriors. They go out and spread the word when they leave your home. But so many people are neglecting their own families, letting other pressures come and

destroy the minds of these kids. And it's becoming unrecognizable. And so I would say, if you want to save America, save your family. What's with you? You speaketh the truth. You, sir, are a prophet. That's exactly right. That's the first time Sean's been called a prophet. Yes, it's the first time. I'm going to write this one down.

Sean, we're speaking the same language. And I know that anyone listening to this, whose heart resonates with eternal truth, they're going, yes, yes, that's exactly right. I believe that the most powerful position, the most powerful platform in America is not the presidency. It is parenting. It is moms and dads because the way that God builds worlds is not from the top down. It's from the bottom up. And so if we want to change America, you're right. Listen to Sean. Change does not begin in the White House. It begins at our house, at the kitchen table. The kitchen table is where the hope is found with those little eyes looking up at you, calling you mom or dad or grandma or grandpa or aunt or uncle. But those children at your kitchen table are the future men and women of faith and morality who can then assume positions of leadership, not only in their family and in their churches,

but also in their schools and in their communities, in their states and in federal government, in the military, in the medical world, in the tech world, in the art and entertainment world. These are the places that shape culture and how worlds and societies are built. But it must start at the kitchen table. Yeah. And I'm so glad, by the way, that you brought up grandparents because I think that a lot of grandparents are especially confused at what they see. of grandparents are especially confused at what they see so you know the the drag shows at the library for example that that kurt cameron can't go read a book at a library but a bunch of drag queens could go and you know twerk in front of four and five and six year old kids and that was

okay um a lot of grandparents are looking at this and going what is going it doesn't even they don't get it i mean it doesn't make sense to me hardly, but you can imagine being, you know, 87 years old going, what the heck is going on in this country? And there is still a role for grandma. It's enough to make grandma swear. Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, no, for sure.

I mean, just utter confusion. And my mother, you know, who's, you know, in her early eighties is constantly saying, you know, I, I just, thank God I wasn't asked to raise kids in this era. You know, she's like, I don't know how you guys are doing it. Um, it's just, it's really hard. It's hard. And this is why I like what you've done. I started getting the brave books. I'm a subscriber. I'm going to tell you what, I'm going to tell you the truth, Kirk, I haven't gotten your book yet. I'm waiting for it. Um, So I want you to talk a little bit about your book, about,

about what people can get from it. And then I want to talk about this country. By the way, the first book I got from brave books was elephants are not birds, which I thought was so wonderfully done. There was one called little lives matter, which means a lot to Sean and I, because we have a little girl who has down syndrome and is a little bit different. And boy, do little lives matter.

And then our friend Julie Banderas did Fiona's Fantastical Fort. Your book, by the way, I've looked at some of the sales stuff. I mean, your book is selling like, I mean, I don't know, like hotcakes. I don't know what the right analogy is, but it's flying off the shelves. And Drag Queen Story Hour has probably, the controversy there probably has helped your sales, unfortunately for our country, but it has helped our sales. Lay out what happened for us.

Tell us how this all, yeah, lay out the book, lay out the controversy. And the irony is that I'm sure every drag queen in America would love my little book called As You Grow. It's so sweet. It's so beautifully illustrated. If only they'll read it, I'd be happy to send them a copy. That was really well played. I really love my book too.

It's true. It's true. Okay, go on. Tell us about the book. So I wrote a children's book called As You Grow. And it's about teaching children biblical wisdom as they grow through the seasons of life and the value of the fruit of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. And I wanted to do a public book reading at a public library, like so many libraries offer. And I was denied by over

50 woke libraries who have hosted drag queen story hours. And a couple of the most shocking denials, one in Alameda County denied the reading of this sweet book on biblical wisdom, while at the same time had a gender name change clinic the next day. In Rochambeau Public Library, they said that they were sorry, but they're a queer-friendly library and that their messaging does not align with ours. Tolerance. Is that tolerance to you that Kirk's not allowed? Yeah. Which value is not aligning? Self-control, love, goodness, gentleness. I said, can I fill out a form or can I send you the book? And they said, well, you can fill out a form, you can reserve space, but we will not run your program. And a third said, we have a strategy for the authors we're choosing, and we are focusing on authors of color.

So in libraries, if you're the wrong color, they won't let you in. You shouldn't ask me to read the book. I'm Mexican-American, Kirk. You could have said, Rachel's going to read the book for me. Yeah, that's right. And so I'm thinking to myself, you know, this is really telling. And so I'm thinking to myself, you know, this is really telling. We have children in public schools today who are terrified not only to go to school, but just about life. They're overwhelmed with mental illness, cyberbullying, drug overdoses, and school shootings. Maybe they could use a book that taught them about gentleness, kindness, self-control, and loving others.

But these libraries said that they would rather say no and say yes to drag queen twerking in front of kids. Well, let me clarify that. I'm using your language there. They didn't say that to me specifically, but we're seeing this take place not only in public libraries, but in public schools and in bars. And you just Google Story Hour, and you will see horrifying images that will make your grandmother cry. In restaurants, they're doing like Sunday brunch drag show, and parents are bringing their kids,

and they're having like a performance at the restaurant from the drag show. I mean, I've been to drag shows. My question is the parents. What parents bring their children to this and sit them in front of them and watch? And give them dollar bills to give to the drag queens. I mean, and place them in their clothing. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable what's been normalized. And that's the thing.

I mean, is this child protection agency worthy? I mean, do we not need to just call this what it is? This is this is child abuse. Yes. And again, that's what that's what gets me. There's there's a big world out there where people do things that, you know, we can disagree with or we can't agree with, but they're adults and they consent and they they do all kinds of things. And drag shows may be one of those. And people may enjoy going to them. But the fact that we take a drag show, and again, these are very sexual, and we present that sexual, men dressed up as women, like Rachel says, twerking, gyrating, sexual poses. And we're presenting that to little kids

as if that is normal. I don't want adults who are heterosexuals performing sexual gyrations in front of children. I mean, if anyone has a four or a six or an eight-year-old or you've ever had one, you know that their minds aren't made for that. They're not wired in a way to be able to process what's happening. And to your point, Kirk, this is child abuse. They can't be confronted with these kind of themes and process them at eight years old or six years old. And so I think you're warping and destroying the minds of kids who are seeing this stuff.

And not that, again, if you're an adult and you want to go see it, great, go see it. But for kids, at some point, everybody, even if you're gay and you believe in drag shows, should say, kids are off limit. We're not going to present this to kids because they're special. They're not all formed. And we want to protect them to a certain age at which they can make decisions for themselves and life choices for themselves. And that's not what's happening. No, no, we want to sexualize children in America. And to what end? I don't know. You know, there's so much to be discussed there. And and we as a society have moved that moral line so far down the road that they've got robust arguments and counterpoints to everything that we just said. And I think that ultimately, once we unhitch, we untie the boat from the anchor of the eternal principles of right and good and truth found in the Bible, we're going to find

ourselves so far out in the drift in the middle of the moral ocean that it's going to be hard. What do you point to after all to say why these things are wrong? I mean, soon they'll say that everything you said is just a product of age discrimination, that who are you and what rule book are you pointing to to say that five-year-olds and their doctor cannot make a choice to change from a boy to a girl or watch a man twerking in front of them? Who are you, oh Gandalf of morality, to impose your morals on someone else, right? It's just, it's going to get there.

And then pretty soon it's evil is good and good is evil. And we're toast unless we get back to those principles that have always resulted in human flourishing. And that's the, that mosaic code that has worked for 4,000 years and produced the best societies on Earth. Wait right there. We're going to have more of that conversation next. Visa and OpenTable are dishing up something new.

Get access to primetime dining reservations by adding your Visa Infinite Privilege card to your OpenTable account. From there, you'll unlock first come, first serve spots at select top restaurants when booking through OpenTable account. From there, you'll unlock first come, first serve spots at select top restaurants when booking through OpenTable. Learn more at OpenTable.ca forward slash Visa Dining. When I look at Brave Books, when I see what you've done, what Julie Banderos has done and others through Brave Books, what I see is that, and I see how wildly popular they are. I'm seeing that the answer is one, the first thing you said, which is first understanding that you're, as a parent, you are still the first and most important teacher in your kid's life. So don't be, don't lose hope with everything that's going around you, but to create another ecosystem or world that your kids can be part of.

And you and I both know from going to Barnes & Noble or looking at what Amazon books are being pushed on our kids and us, that there is just no room in those areas for books like yours to be pushed. And so that's why there's a subscription. Talk to me about what's going on. So the good news, the good news after all of these denials from these public libraries to read my book, as you grow, is that parents, grandparents,

and even the librarians are stepping up. And they're saying through emails to our website at bravebooks.com, we want the book and we want to read it in the library. Give it to us, please send it. So we're sending them free books and teaching them how they, as parents and grandparents, can take my book or your book, Rachel, or anyone's book and can take a good, wholesome book with godly values to your public library. And you can host your own story hour. And they can't stop you. If they try to stop you, they're likely breaking the law, and we will show you how to do this.

And when you push back, things change. I've put a couple of these libraries on notice who had the most egregious violations of the Constitution and equal access laws about my book on notice that I want them to read the book. I'm asking for an opportunity to go to the same place in the same way that they've allowed others to read their books. And I've assured them these are values that everyone wants for their children. And that if they don't change their mind, I'm prepared to assert my constitutional rights with them in court. And so that's a public letter that I've written to these libraries that you can check out on our website. And you can see how to do that.

And we're awaiting responses to see where this is going to go. So you're going to use the tools of the government to push back. Really, these are government-funded libraries. They're community-based libraries. And so you're going to go, listen, we have certain rules by which we play. And if you're not going to play by them, we'll sue you. And you're going to have to. That's what government is for.

That's what government is for. And that, unfortunately, is where it goes, right? Like when two kids, you guys, how many kids do you have? 10? We have nine. I'm not sure. Do you know more than I know? Hey, you guys are slacking. You guys are slacking. So your kids start fighting and then they can't work it out between the two of them. And then ultimately there's a mom and a dad who can step in and they can say, look, here's where the buck stops and here's what we're going to do. And we've been given the tools by our founders called law, called constitution.

And we need to make use of those when entities like public libraries or public schools or whatever it is, fight like children. And they're not principled in and of themselves enough to say, you know what, we need to be fair and kind and gracious to one another. When they don't, we can step in and we can look to our founding fathers and say, what do we have to help settle this matter? And we can do it graciously. So that's what we're doing. And we're hoping that it'll be successful and that they'll change their mind. And this was just a misunderstanding. And I think the lesson from this, Kirk, is that when people are brave, when people of faith stand up and go, you know what, I am a Christian and this is who I am, it makes other people have courage to stand up and go, I too am a Christian. Or if someone else is like,

because libraries, and pick your corner of the world where your view is being suppressed, they expect you to be silent. But if you're not silent and you stand up and you push back, you'll be surprised at how many people come along with you. Just like you've seen in this experience, as you say, I've been denied the ability to read my book of virtues to children at a library that allowed for twerking with male dancers who are dressed up as women. More people stand up and go, you know what? I agree with Kirk Cameron. I think our library should have these kinds of books in place. And I guess my point with that is courageous people inspire others to be courageous.

Amen. That's right. Which is why I love what you've done is going, you know what? I'm not going to be silent and take this. I'm going to stand up and push back. I'm going to do press around it. I'm going to sue. And you know what? It's not just what you're doing. It's other people looking at what you're doing and saying, I like what he's done and I'm going to do it as well. And then all of a sudden you get two and you get 10 and you get 200 and 2,000. That's how the movements grow is courageous people doing what you're doing. That's why I'm thankful, not just for the book, but that you're able to experience what the left is doing.

They probably didn't expect that you would respond the way you have, which is why I love it because it inspires others to respond the same way you have. Well, and again, I wouldn't be surprised if some of their own drag queens went and said, I'd like to read Kirk's book at our library because I really like it. It's so sweet and beautiful. She offered drag queens the ability to do story hour with your book. You can have one sitting, you can have it all. I know. They'll start fighting for my book for me if they only saw it. And you talked about pushing back and inspiring others. Courage does have a tendency to do that. But I also want, more than anything, I want people of faith, especially. Because I don't think we get out of the mess that we've created for ourselves. Remember, this is a prison that we've created for ourselves. We paid for it.

All these dollars that go to the public libraries and that are in Congress, that are everywhere through our tax dollars and everything else are funding all of the very things that we are horrified by. So we can't look to others and blame them. We have to say, wait, this happened on my watch with my dollars and we've allowed it. If we want to push back and we want to step out in courage, we have to remember that there will be a cost to that. That's not easy. Worlds are built through great courage and great sacrifice and uh our founding fathers and mothers did that and if you some of our very favorite movies of the greatest courageous heroes i mean one of mine is you know braveheart or look at the patriot oh sean don't so sean loves

those are two of sean's favorite okay of course every every every man who has a beard or secretly wants to grow a beard loves the Patriot and Gladiator. But remember, they become heroic when they exercise courage, not when things are going well, but it's during a time of great danger, a time where so much is at stake. And they have a lot of personal skin in the game. stake and they have a lot of personal skin in the game. I'm sorry, but I don't want to be stripped of every good thing that I have in order to accomplish some moral good, but that is often what is required. When we look at George Washington, or we look at Braveheart, or we look at St. Patrick, or we look at the pilgrims, half of them died the first

winter when they landed in Plymouth. There are great challenges and difficulties that come with being courageous. But if we step back and we look at the big picture, we see that there's the invisible hand of providence. We have the great author of history, which is his story. And he's writing it in such a way that good wins over evil. And that covenant- We know how it ends, right? That's right. Covenant keepers win, covenant breakers lose every time. We just have to stick around long enough to see the end of the story. And in the middle chapters, it can be a nail biter. But maybe you, Rachel, Sean, Kirk, whoever's listening, are being called on to step onto the stage of the world and be courageous at this moment in time. And we say, but I'm scared

to do it. What'll happen? I may lose my job. I may lose some friends. I understand, but you can't afford not to. We can't afford for you not to because not only does this make for a better story, we need you to do your part and play your role well in this drama that God is enacting on the stage of the world because it demonstrates the power of the gospel in the face of evil. And that's why I'm excited to be alive right now. And you're right. Let's just play our role as well. It's so interesting because so many people are losing hope because, as you see, we're starting to see the rotting fruit, right?

And what I love about your message is it's so hopeful because it's like, no, this is the time. This is a great time to be alive. This is the time that I get to show that courage that I get to, to earn, you know, my, my, my way to heaven, if you will, by fighting for those good things. I want to talk to you too, Kirk, because we're right on the eve of another drama, right?

Which is the nativity of our, our savior, the most, one of the most beautiful stories ever told. And I want to hear about your own family. Like how do you guys celebrate the holidays? I can just tell you that right now I'm, I'm, I'm warming myself by a fire in our living room. The stockings are hung by the chimney with care. We've got little carolers on our,

on our mantle and the Christmas trees being decorated. So we, we, we love Christmas time. care. We've got little carolers on our mantle and the Christmas tree is being decorated. So we love Christmas time. Can't wait for our grown kids to come home and celebrate with us. Yeah, we're waiting for our grown kids to come as well. So listen, thank you for joining us. Thanks for everything that you're doing. We're both very inspired by what you have done throughout your entire career, but especially in this really interesting moment, I think that the thing that happened at the library and the way you handled it has been really inspirational

to a lot of Christians across the country. Well, the story's not over yet. Stay tuned. We've got lots more coming. I love that. You got your sword, your armor, and you're out there fighting. You're a bright light, and we appreciate it. You appreciate you joining us, and let's all get in the ring.

Let's all get in the ring and fight, brother we got to stay that's right we got to stay together uh coals to coals that stay together burn more brightly yes they do well god listen god bless you guys god bless your family merry christmas thank you guys hope you got it absolutely bye you know rachel just just uh quickly i was trying to find as he was speaking and you inspired me to come up with my other favorite movie because we're talking movies with the camera, but Miracle on Ice. And what was that? That might be your favorite movie of all time. It may actually be, but great moments come from great opportunity.

Great opportunity comes. Anyway, I'm going to find a few. But listen, he's right. This is a moment where it's not calm. It's not peaceful. This is a moment for people to put their armor on and get into the ring and to fight back. And really, it's about saving America, saving the principles and ideas that our founders had that have been passed on for 200 plus years that we're about to lose. These ideas that are rotten, this Marxist, communist,

socialist, authoritarian style of government, which when you think about Ronald Reagan's quote, doesn't maximize individual liberty and freedom. Those ideas are taking root and they're growing fast and it's happening very quickly. And it will only win if good people stand up and are unafraid. And he's right. People can lose their jobs. They can lose their incomes, their wealth. I thought about the signers of the Declaration of Independence. Half of them lost family members, lost their farms. They lost everything because they signed that document.

Yeah, it was like committing treason. I mean, they were, yeah. Great, people have had great sacrifice through the course of this history of our experience of America. Just think in the last two years, how many people, even members of the military who lost their jobs for saying, I'm not going to be vaccinated because

it, you know, violates my bodily autonomy, um, or because I, I, I can't, or because I'm trying to get pregnant and I don't want to take this vaccine. How many nurses were, were fired because of that? Um, you know, doing what's right for you and, and as an individual, but what's right for your family. A lot of people who stood up at school board meetings were called domestic terrorists, where a lot of people have had the FBI pro-lifers, you know, who have gone to had the FBI at their door because they were protesting on behalf of little ones. Listen, it's not easy being a Christian, but we were born for a time like this. And I think people like Kirk and the way he handled the boycott of his book are people who

teach us how to fight. And I think it's great. No, you're right. And he has taught us how to fight. It's out of love. He's not mean at all. He maintains his values and his morality as he then soldiers on to kind of go, hey, you know, first off, I want to expose what's happening. I don't think most people would recognize that a book like his couldn't be read at a public library. No. And the people like, huh, that that doesn't make sense. But then the same public library that won't read his book will have drag queen shows for three and four year old. No, that's true. By the way, my quote was great moments are born from great opportunity.

Ah, yeah. Great moments are born from great opportunity. It's a, it's Miracle on Ice. I love it. The great 1980s hockey team that was not supposed to even medal, won the gold medal in the Olympics, beating the Russians or the Soviets back then. The Soviets, I'm sorry. won the gold medal in the Olympics, beating the Russians, or the Soviets back then. The Soviets,

I'm sorry. So listen, again, we both have to run. Our kids are coming home soon. Before the chaos comes. But we all have moments where we can stand up and push back and fight back. We can put our armor on. We can be a light. And Kirk Cameron's experience right now is on a bigger stage with a bigger light and a bigger fight. But there's little moments, whether it's with our schools, in our workplace, at soccer, whatever those moments are, there are moments that we all come across that we can choose to stand up or we can retreat. And I think all of us, and again, we're the majority need to stand up and be that light, you know, be that brave heart, you know, you know, rallying the troops, yelling freedom. I love that, Sean, but not everybody's going to pull the sword and yell freedom when somebody else does. Make sure you back them up.

Do you know what i'm saying if we if we go to braveheart as braveheart was you know given this freedom speech he also had you know hundreds or thousands of people ready to actually pick up their arms and fight with them right they actually didn't give the speech but they did pick up their arms and they ran into battle or when you see someone get cut down and canceled you, make sure you're the one standing up for them. Make sure you're the first person to give them a call and say, hey, we got your back. What can we do?

Because sometimes we sit around, we expect somebody else to do the work. And so there's a part for everybody. And not everybody's going to be braveheart. Not everybody's going to pull the sword and lead the charge. But if you agree with that person that's doing it, let them know. Give their support. Even if it's just online, lend your support. They need that support. And this isn't going to happen quickly. We have not paid attention for a long time, for decades, and they have grown strong. And so now it's our time to go, you know what? We have to start pushing back and it's gonna it's

gonna take years it's gonna take decades to get this country back um in generations start with your kids and these books i mean i i have to say i've i've i'm a subscriber i've get i get all of them there's not one i don't like um i'm sorry the elephants are not birds the first one is still my favorite elephants are not birds is a great one is still my favorite. Elephants are not birds is a great one. Amazing. But, but all of them are good. And, and Kirk's doing his part. Our good friend, Julie Banderas is doing her part. I love Julie.

I love the way you say her last name. Banderas. Banderas. She says it Banderas. I know, but Rachel. But I say Banderas, it means flag in Spanish. I love it. So listen, as, as you all start to prepare for Christmas, and we want to

talk about that with Kirk, but listen, we're doing the same in our house. We have our Christmas tree up and put lights on. And, you know, Rachel had me decorate the house all over, which can be a pain in the butt. Outside. You did the outside. And boy, he did even the big tall trees. I did. So I, for the first time, got a long pole and i did the i did the whooping around my trees took time and it was cold out and after like a day and a half one of the trees that i did the the the fuse in the lights blue so all the work that i did now they won't light up so i gotta go out and buy some fuses for these darn things but i mean how annoying is that that's they're brand new i I just bought them.

Walmart brand, I guess. The trials and tribulations of dads at Christmas. Fatherhood. I know it really irks us. But as you mentioned, we have our kids coming home. We're excited about that. First one's coming home tonight. First one's coming home tonight.

And then the next week, it's been wonderful. And this is the happiest time of year. It really is a wonderful time. I always get sad when I put away the Christmas ornaments and the Christmas decorations. So I'm just really trying to savor it all as much as I can. And before we go, if I could make a recommendation. We made this before on our podcast. But if you are sitting around and you're not playing a game with your family and you're not doing dishes and you're like, we just need to watch a good movie.

There's two that Sean and Rachel would recommend. What are they? White Christmas and It's a Wonderful Life. White Christmas and It's a Wonderful Life. And by the way, if you want to get the soundtrack, a couple of great songs off of White Christmas, they're awesome awesome so there's some of the favorites on our uh on our on our playlist um and it's wonderful life it's they're they're two great classic american movies they put you in the christmas spirit and and um yeah wonderful messages so um with that listen thank you all for joining us on our podcast from the kitchen table actually kirk cameron got into from the kitchen table and life happens saving america happens at the kitchen table. Actually, Kirk Cameron got into From the Kitchen Table and life happens. Saving America happens

at the kitchen table. It does happen around the kitchen table. That's why we took time. We thought hard about what we were going to name this podcast. It's the one that makes the most sense because that's where life starts around the kitchen table. That's right. So thank you for joining us. If you like our podcast, you can rate, review. Make sure you subscribe

wherever you get your podcasts to From the Kitchen Table. We'd appreciate it. And as you prepare for this most wonderful time of year, Rich and I wish you all a Merry Christmas. A very Merry and Holy Christmas. Listen ad-free with a Fox News Podcast Plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to the show ad-free on the Amazon Music app. Goodbye, everybody. Goodbye.

Hi, everybody. It's Brian Kilmeade. I want you to join me weekdays at 9 a.m. East as we break down the biggest stories of the day with some of the biggest newsmakers and, of course, what you think. Listen live or get the podcast now at BrianKilmeadeShow.com.