From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - Ryan Michler's Masculinity Manifesto

Episode Date: September 8, 2022

On this episode, Sean and Rachel sit down with Iraqi Combat Veteran and Host of The Order of Man podcast, Ryan Michler, to discuss the meaning of masculinity and his upcoming book The Masculinity Manifesto: How a Man Establishes Influence, Credibility, and Authority. Ryan explains the virtues of being a manly man and the impact that these men have on communities. Ryan also lists some ways that men can gain fulfillment from performing masculine tasks. Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey, everyone. Welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm Sean Duffy, along with my co-host for the podcast, my partner in life, and my wife, Rachel Campos Duffy.

Thank you, Sean. It's so great to be back at our kitchen table. And boy, do we have a great conversation today because we are joined by Iraq combat veteran and the host of a podcast and blog called The Order of Man. His name is Ryan Mickler. And he also wrote a book which caught our attention, Sean. It's called The Masculine Manifesto, How a Man Establishes Influence, Credibility, and Authority. Ryan, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. How important... I mean, Sean and I were talking even before the podcast saying, we think this might be the most important topic in America right now. Yeah. I mean, it's crucial. That's why I wrote the book on it. And to put it out there, I need this book just as much as any other man. I was actually reading through it as I was doing

the audio version of the book. And I was like, well, I'm not doing that. I'm not very good at that. I need to improve on that. But yeah, it is crucial. And there's definitely... I'm hesitant to use the word attack, but there certainly is at a minimum a dismissal of masculinity in culture and society today. And I wanted to write a book and put a message out there that would help paint a different picture of the current narrative that masculinity can be used for productive outcomes and actually serve society in very positive ways as it has throughout history. You know, Ryan, again, I think this is one of the most important topics and we'll probably

get to this at one point, but we've somewhat or society has somewhat demonized men and masculinity. You guys keep saying somewhat. They have demonized. They have, Sean. Not everybody. Not everybody. But so I guess my question is, lay out the problem and the consequences of the attack on masculinity in the American culture? Well, I think at the root of the reason there is this demonization or undermining attack, assault, whatever word you want to use there, is that a society that has strong, bold, courageous, independent, capable men is harder for the powers that be to control and manipulate and coerce. And so when it comes to politicians and the government and even the education system, and even in the medical community, the whole idea is to get people to comply.

But when you have a society filled with men who are independent and capable of taking care of themselves and other people, you're not going to get that compliance. And that is the root cause or the root reason why there is this deliberate attempt to erode and undermine masculinity in society. I think it's fascinating. It all comes back to politics because if I'm an independent, self-sufficient, independent thinking man, you don't control me. I'm in charge of my destiny, the destiny of my family. I earn money for myself. I can take care of my home. I can feed my wife and my kids. But if I can't do that, I need the government. I need politicians. I need the state to take care of me, which then takes power away from me as an individual and gives it to the need you to now do this, which is to mask up and comply.

There's a lot of different things that will be called in a later day. But again, individual men who lead themselves, their families, their communities, and their business as well aren't subject to the strings that are being pulled. So I think the other criticism, if you will, of masculinity and the reason why it's being toxic by so many in the culture is many people, particularly feminists, and many of those feminists have very strong positions of power in society. They say that masculinity isn't good for women. So let's talk about, Ryan, what does it mean to be masculine? And how about we talk about it in the context, or maybe you could add that as well. How does it help women? How does masculinity

make the lives of women better? Well, I'll start by saying that I don't think masculinity is inherently good either. That might be a little bit deviation from what people have heard in the past, but masculinity is simply a set of characteristics or behaviors or traits that we would generally ascribe to men based on our biological makeup. So it's amoral. It's neither good nor bad. And I make the distinction that manliness is when we use our God-given talents, gifts, abilities, biological makeup for productive outcomes.

That's the difference between masculinity and manliness. So I consider it- Okay. So then how is manliness good for women? And what is it? Can you define it better? Yeah. So I define manliness as the ability to protect, provide, and preside over yourself, for your loved ones, and people who cannot do it for themselves. That's the most simplest definition that I've ever come up with. And I've thought a lot about this. And when a man is striving to do those things, he is being manly. And those are the people that we admire and respect, whether it's on the silver screen or in real life, we see guys who are taking their aggression or their stoicism or their competitiveness or even the propensity for violence and using it and harnessing it and leveraging it for productive, favorable outcomes.

And so to your point, Rachel, when a man decides to take his masculinity and turn it into manliness, it allows women the space and the freedom to be able to step into their feminine roles. My wife is a stay-at-home mother and homemaker. And as I strive to do as good a job I can, that allows her to raise our children. That allows her to turn this house into a beautiful home. That allows her to pursue the things that are meaningful and interesting to her. I get so tired of hearing people say that men and women are equal. We're not. That means the same. We're not. Are we equal in worth? Yes. I think inherently we're equal in worth, but as far as what we do generally, I know there's exceptions, but generally we're not equal. We're completely different. And that's a good thing. And as a woman steps into her role, it allows a man to step into his. And as a man steps into his, it allows her to step into hers. I don't know that I hold myself out as

a connoisseur of women and knowing exactly what women want. Rachel will attest to that. But I would think from my observation of women, they want manly men. They want men who are going to work hard, that are going to take care. Listen, Ryan, I don't know about you, but when we hear something in our house, our dog starts barking and there's noises outside, I don't nudge Rachel and say, hey, honey, get up and go see who's at the front door. Is there a danger in the house? I get nudged. I grab the gun and I'm the one who goes downstairs. We fall into these roles. And I think, you know, as, as just, and maybe I'm a product of the eighties that I think women don't want

the pajama boy don't want the little, you know, woke, um, feminine male, male, young adult. They want, they want a man who is again, going to work hard that we'll take care of them. We'll, They want a man who is, again, going to work hard, that will take care of them, will partner and lead in a house and give their wife an option to go, you know what, I do want to work. Or you know what, I want you to make enough money so I can stay home and raise our kids. I want to have those choices and I want to do what fulfills me as a woman. And for me and Rachel, for 14 years, you were a stay-at-home mom. And as our kids got a little older, you started to work part-time and went from there. But those were choices that we wanted to make as the family. And we saw the benefit for our kids and for our own relationship as we were able to make those

choices and kind of go into those traditional roles. Yeah. And they totally depended on Sean stepping up and being a provider. I mean, I, I look at so many of the social ills that we have in, in our country, Ryan, and I, you know, you could almost distill all of it down to men not stepping up and the sort of wake that's created, say when a father isn't in the home, when a father has, you know, when a father refuses to take on the responsibilities that he has to his wife or the mother of his children. Yeah. Well, and Sean, you said something interesting and I wanted to call attention to it. You said, we fall into these roles. These aren't roles that we fall into. I mean, people like to say that these are social constructs. They're not.

The role of a man is not a social construct. The role of a woman is not a social construct. It's a biological construct and it's supported societally because it works. And it really isn't until relatively recently that we've even been able to call into question, what is a woman? What is a man? What are they supposed to be doing? Because we have it so easy. But just because we have it easy doesn't mean that there aren't things that a man might need to address. Sean, like you said, an intruder at the house. We actually, my wife and I had that experience a couple of years ago.

We woke up at 2 a.m. Somebody had rung our doorbell. I pulled out the security cameras and there was a man at our door who was trying to actually open the door. And so I did the same thing. Grab the gun, grab the dog. We'd been through the drills. We kind of knew what to do. Wife called the police and everything was fine. It ended up working out just fine. The guy was drunk and he thought our house was a church, which actually was across the street and everything was fine. But this is the way of human nature, not just we made this up because men are more powerful

than women. That's not it at all. And I think what's happened today, though, is you do see more women who say, listen, I want to have a professional career. I want to take a little different lane maybe than my mom and my grandma had. And frankly, Rachel has talked about that. Both of us have talked about that a lot, about sometimes women are pushed into certain roles they may not want. They may yearn to go, oh, I want to get married. I want to have kids. But society and culture tells me I'm not supposed to do that. I'm supposed to do something else, though their heart tells them they should go a different direction. But I take your point.

Ryan, when you look at- You know what? Can I say something on that, Sean? Yeah. You know what's interesting about what you just said is that I have never once faulted or blamed or mocked or ridiculed or poked at or looked at a woman who decided that she wanted to enter the workforce and I've never looked at her less than favorably, but you know what? There's another side of the equation where these feminists, men or women will mock and ridicule and harass women who decide to stay at home. That's the difference. You know, and they talk about women's suffrage and women's empowerment. And yet really what they mean when they say that is no, leave the home, leave your husband, leave your kids, go out into the workforce and be a man. And only then are you a woman. That doesn't make sense to me. Now, again,

if a woman wants to go out into the workforce and pursue a career or do something meaningful, all the power to her, but you're never going to hear my side of the equation, ridicule a woman for doing that. But you will hear the other side ridicule women who decide to be empowered by staying at home and taking care of their families. So if masculinity is important, and we all believe here on this podcast, at least that masculinity and manliness in particular, as you define it, masculinity and manliness in particular, as you define it, is important to society and to the flourishing, frankly, of children, then how can you pass that trait on? We live in a country that has so many broken homes, so many men who aren't present. And now you have those children grow up to be men often without

that kind of a role model. How can they get those traits? Is that what your book is about? Is that what your podcast is about? Sort of passing on those traits, especially to young men who maybe didn't have that example passed on to them? Yeah, definitely. I mean, primarily we work with men, not so much young men. We do have an event coming up where it's called Legacy, where we have 20 fathers with their sons come out to our property here in Maine. And we do a two and a half to three day rite of passage type experience for these men and young men. But it's amazing to me. Well, we do all sorts of activities that are designed to push the boys and fathers physically,

mentally, emotionally. And then what we're trying to do is bridge the gap between the fathers and the sons. How do you have deep and meaningful conversations about things you've never talked about before? How do you harness your emotions? Not hide them, but harness them. How do you talk about uncomfortable situations? How do you handle yourself when life gets challenging? How do men open up to their sons and teach exactly what you're talking about, these experiences? But it's amazing to me how many men that are in our programs or just simply listen to our podcast who grew up without a father. That was me. simply listening to our podcast who didn't, who grew up without a father that that was me. My dad wasn't around most of my life in the picture. And so my mom did as, as wonderful as a job that she could do, but she's actually staying with us this week. And if I brought

her in here, she would tell you that she was, it was insufficient and that's not a knock on her at all. She did the best she could and she did a wonderful job, but there's no way that a woman can fully help a young man turn into a man that takes that's that's men's work. It takes a man to do. So what, so to your question, what can we do? Well, first start in your home. You know, let's take care of our sons. Let's take care of our daughters. Let's show our boys how to harness masculinity. Let's show our daughters what a man actually looks like and how he treats and acts around young ladies and women. And then from there, once you start to get that developed, then start to turn outwards. What are you doing in your church congregation?

What are you doing in your community? Are you running for elected positions? Are you on the school board? Are you in PTA? Are you on the booster club for your son's football team? Are you hosting footballTA? Are you on the booster club for your son's football team? Like, what are you hosting football nights for dinner? What are you doing in your community to help these young men who, or are you coaching a little league sports team?

I mean, I've, I've coached teams for off and on for probably eight or nine years, young, young boys. And I can't tell you how hard it was to find another man just to help me coach. And I would see these young boys who, like, they would look at me like a father figure. It was both empowering, but heartbreaking. I'm like, man, these young boys just don't have a dad in their life. What an unfortunate, tragic situation. We'll have more of this conversation after this. At Desjardins, we speak business. We speak equipment modernization. We're fluent in data digitization and expansion into foreign markets.

And we can talk all day about streamlining manufacturing processes. Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. So can I ask you, can I follow up on this? So in the home, let's talk about in the home. Is it enough to just model being a great dad, being a great husband, or is there something specific or are there certain things that dad should do? You mentioned coaching. That might be a good example that you could set for your son of how you serve others and have that sort of paternal role for other people. But in the home,

what can the father do? Well, I don't think it's enough to your point that we just model behavior. And the reason is, is because they don't, kids don't always look at behavior and equate it with a certain mindset or deliberate intentional work. They don't see that. And so it's our job to connect the dots, but there's also negative behavior that all of us engage in. You know, I fall short in so many ways. I feel like I'm like the poster child for this work. It's like those old Rogaine commercials, if you remember, like, I'm not only the president, I'm a member. I guess that's me.

You know, I'm trying to figure this stuff out myself. And so it's important that when we do mess up, that we have frank, hard, and difficult conversations with our children, which I have had on multiple occasions about, hey, this is where I mess up. This is where I fall short. This is what I did wrong. I'm sorry. When's the last time you said, I'm sorry to one of your children? not only model the behavior, but then also connect the dots for our children and show them that the behavior is deliberate. Hey, the reason we're experiencing financial results, for example, is because of X, Y, and Z. So a great example of that, we've been successful financially, our family, and we have a bunch of merchandise and things like that that we sell. My oldest son manages our merchandise store. So now it's not just modeling the behavior. It's actually getting him involved in the behavior. Yeah. My wife just yesterday, we homeschool our children just yesterday said, Hey,

cause my son has his own podcast and he's got shirts that he sells now. And she asked, does he buy his own shirts? And I said, yeah, he's 14 years old. I said, yeah, he buys them himself. He buys them and then he sells them. And she's like, oh, I need all that information so we can make sure we document it for their homeschool. So we model the behavior and then we give them opportunities to learn it for themselves. That's the only way we've ever learned. Teach, let them do, evaluate, and drive on. You know, Ryan, I look at, obviously your podcast is wildly successful.

You're writing a book on a topic of masculinity and manliness. You look at Jocko, even Joe Rogan. I mean, something's happening in our culture where, and again, I don't know that anyone is sending men to you. There's not a big arrow that says, go see Ryan, go see Jocko. But young men realize and recognize there's something missing in their lives that maybe they didn't get from their father. Maybe they're not getting from culture and they're drawn to other masculine figures, other examples of what it's like to be a man. And I find that fascinating that again, this is rooted in our DNA. Yeah, that's the fascination with Andrew Tate too, who's like, you know, blown up as well,

just like Joe Rogan, these sort of very masculine men on the internet who are being sought out by young men. Good point, Sean. Well, another one is Jordan Peterson. I mean, yes, 100%, you know, very fatherly, obviously very wise. I guess some people would debate that, but, but he's, but he's a very fatherly type figure, even the way that he communicates, which is not anger, but sternness, right. The sternness of a father. Uh, and so, yeah, these guys who never had that in their homes, of course, that's appealing to them. That's natural. And so we look to guys, like you said, yeah, I don't know what it would be like to be the son of Jordan Peterson or Jocko. I can't imagine that would be a completely pleasant experience. And I know Jocko personally, Jocko would readily admit that, but I mean,

there's something missing and these guys are providing it. And, you know, the way I look at what we've done in the movement is not so much fatherly, but more brotherly. Like, hey, I'm I don't know either. I'm trying to figure this out. And maybe we can partner or go shoulder to shoulder in this thing and figure it out together. For men, for fathers and fathers to join together, for fathers to join together, to support each other in the raising up and figuring out how to, how to produce good men. I gotcha. Well, you know, what's funny is I had, I was going to say I had, I had over the past, I would say 30 to 45 days, I've been working through some of my own personal struggles, which, you know, believe it or not, I have.

And I called up, I've called up a few friends that are, that are close personal friends that I feel I can confide in and trust. And this is, this is uncommon, I think, uh, in men in, in the modern age anyways. And I told my friend what I was dealing with and he's like, Oh, really? Like I'm actually dealing with that too. And he told me his situation. I said, bro, why didn't you tell me you were doing, dealing with this? And his response was classic. He said, well, why didn't you tell me? I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. Everybody's got a problem and none of us are talking about it. I think women generally are more apt to do that. Men struggle with that and we need it. We need it, which is why these movements are so valuable. Yeah. And it's also interesting to get the advice from a man. So a lot of men go to their wives

and say, I have this issue and women give their perspective on it. But the answer that a woman might give might be different than the answer that your buddy might give who's also going through the same struggle. So it's interesting. I think there's something that both sexes can offer in that solution. I'm sorry, Sean, go ahead. No, what I was going to say was, I can tune in your podcast, Ryan, and even on this podcast, I can listen to you and whether it's Jocko Horber, whatever masculine manly figure I'm listening to, the example of manlyhood is to actually acknowledge your faults, which is what you just said right here, right? To go, listen, I'm not perfect. I don't hold myself out as a perfect human being, but I'm going to speak boldly.

I'm going to speak from the heart. I'm going to tell you what I think. And that's also, I mean, I think even the lessons that are learned when people tune in, when young men tune in, they get a wide array of what it means. And again, it's not just speaking strong. It's not just being the guy who gets up at night, but it's also the compassion, the work, but also the failing and the acknowledgement of failure and the striving to do better. striving to do better, that I think is a fascinating lesson that young men can learn from just tuning in to other strong, outspoken men as an example. Yeah. I've got a good friend. His name is Jason Wilson. He calls it the comprehensive man, where a man begins to integrate. And I believe the term he uses as a biblical reference is the lion and the lamb. Like, how can you be both? You know, men are led to believe that we need

to be the lion at all times. Well, when do we be the lamb? And it's not bad to be the lamb, right? We need to be that. We need to have environments where that's okay. And then sometimes we need to armor up and suit up and be the warrior that we can be. But if we're always the, this is the trap I fall into is if we're always the warrior and Rachel, you said it a minute ago, you said men turn to their wives. I don't to a fault. And I actually would think that a lot of men are probably in the same boat. It's like, I don't want to, it's not that we don't trust our wives or that we don't want to share these things with them, but we don't want to burden them. We look at ourselves as protectors. And so I don't trust our wives or that we don't want to share these things with them, but we don't want to burden them, right? We look at ourselves as protectors. And so I don't want to burden my wife with that. I don't want to add to her plate. I know she has things that she's working on and

struggling with. And so I don't want to add to that, but there is a time, especially in marriage where I'm saying this, and this is one thing I need work on is where my wife would actually like to hear from me about the things I'm struggling with. And so when do we let the shield down? When do we put the sword down and show that other side of us? And it's okay if we know how to wield both. I mean, every marriage is different. I mean, Sean and I, we're each other's best friends.

We actually, I think that we probably go to each other more than we go to anyone outside and but but but what's interesting about what you said is because of that in our relationship you know it would be interesting to see you know and and then sean has a brother he's really close to that he he throws things at all the time and and sean's a great, he's a really good communicator. I've learned to communicate through Sean, which is not always the norm, I suppose. But Sean's family, you know, they learned to become good communicators. And Sean sort of had that trait as the youngest of 11 kids. And he sort of really absorbed that. And it's been a real blessing in our marriage because I really think he teaches me a lot in that regard and how to

communicate and how to fight and how to do it productively and not in a negative way. I think it's been really positive for us. One of the things, Ryan, that I saw about your book is you make the distinction between fulfillment and happiness. It seems to be a big point you make. Explain what you mean by that. I don't want to get tripped up in semantics. I'm happy to answer that question, but I just want to preface it by saying it doesn't matter what word you use as much as the meaning that we're putting behind it. Cause words are just, they're just noises and we've given meaning. So like, I don't, again, I don't want to get tripped up in semantics, but the way that I view it just to differentiate between the two is happiness is, is bliss, right? It's you're, you're, you're, you're sitting on the beach and you're just enjoying life and the waves are perfect. And the sun's beaming down on you

and your kids are playing. It's just beautiful. And there's no problems. There's no issues. Life is just good. That's happiness. When we hear that, I'm like, well, that sounds pretty nice. It's nice for like two hours. And then we as humans, especially, I think, I don't know if it's especially, but we as humans crave hardship, crave challenge, crave something to push against. And so fulfillment to me is not the absence of struggle and toil and hardship. It's the ability to overcome it, to meet those obstacles and those challenges head on. And some guys will say, well, do hard things. I mean, I could go over to the wall and bang my head against the wall. And I think we could all agree that would be a hard thing to do.

There's no meaning in that. I'm going to walk away with a headache or worse, and I got nothing out of it. We should be pursuing meaningful challenge, meaningful struggle, things that are purpose-driven, but hard to do. And that's what I mean when I say happiness, bliss versus fulfillment, which is being able to meet meaningful challenges head on and having the ability to deal with it. John Eldridge talks about in his book, it's a great book called Wild at Heart. And he talks about the question that men are trying to answer, which is, do I have what it takes? Well, I'd like to find out. And that means I need to

have some sort of adversary to push against that I'm willing to fight. Is that what men are asking themselves? Do I have what it is? Is that their deepest question? I believe it is for me. And I believe it is for thousands of the men that I've worked with. Do I, aren't we always trying to prove ourselves? I mean, look at, look at, look at boys behavior. I took my, uh, my wife and I and family took, um, two of our boys to football practice yesterday to practice at the same time on the same field, different teams. And my youngest just got done. He's six years old. He just got done. And he decided he's going to go play with the other boys while we watch mother son's football practice. Well, my wife and I look over and he's over there and they're like fighting, not, not

bad, but they're being physical. They're pushing each other around and they're, you know, they're trying to see who's going to beat the other one or who's going to be faster than the other one or who's stronger. And during practice, it's a six-year-old football practice is like herding cats. You guys have all seen it. But one of my son, my son was comparing his height to another boy and they were measuring like who was taller. Like this is ingrained in us. Like, do I have what it takes? Can I go out and can I kill that deer and bring it back to the tribe and be valuable? And that's ingrained in our DNA and it never goes away. But if we don't answer that question or we don't try to, then we see skyrocketing rates of suicide and depression and anxiety. It's said that men commit suicide anywhere from four to five times that of women because we're not answering that question for ourselves and we're depressed about it.

I think there's a lot of people who are afraid of failure, right? If I don't try, if I don't get in the ring, I can't fail. And a lot of times I think we're taught that. I look at my own life, a lot of failure, a lot of success, but some of the most joyful times I've had, the happiest times I've had, the most fulfilling times I've had, I'm melding all your words together, Ryan, but have been when I've taken on challenges and I've done them successfully, big and small. And again, and from my failure too, I've learned a lot from it. I'm a better person because I failed, but by pushing, by being afraid, because risk is, it's scary to take a chance, to take a risk, to put yourself out there and potentially fail. And again, I think that's part of manliness is to go, you know what? It's okay if I fail,

but I'm going to try. I'm going to put my whole heart into this. And even if you don't make it, you're a better man because you got in the ring and tried to do it. And then if you actually are successful, I think the growth that comes from that as well is huge, especially for men. And I don't think we see enough of our young men actually taking that risk, being afraid, pushing themselves, and then having the reward and the success that comes with meeting the goal, getting over the bar, climbing the ladder. Well, we all get to decide what, again, this goes back to our use of words. We all get to decide what things mean. So we can decide what success means. We can decide what

failure means. So when I hear failure, what I think is actually, if you didn't do it, you did fail. That is failure. If you didn't try, then you did fail. Now, some people might define it differently, but I think that framing around it will actually drive you to action. I feel like if I have a thought or an idea, like order of man, this is something I thought about seven, eight years ago, I felt compelled to do it. I feel like I would have been a failure had I not at least pursued it and taken a step in the right direction. So that's failure to me is having an idea, having a dream, having a vision, having something even as simple as doing a chore or project around the house and just saying, I don't want to do it because I'm lazy. Well, then you failed. And that to me is a healthy way to look at failure

and it drives you to action. So when I look at society and I do think that there's definitely a lot of negativity in the culture around masculinity that we hear, it's only in the last few years that we began to hear the culture around masculinity that we hear, you know, it's only in the last few years that we began to hear the word toxic masculinity. And, and you see a lot of this gender fluidity happening. And I think it's also a reaction to, or response to this idea, you know, if masculinity is toxic, then gender is fluid. I think it's all, I think it's all tied up. I think it's very confusing for a lot of kids. And by the way, I saw a documentary on HBO about trans kids. And one of the things that was so interesting to me in these very young kids that were being transitioned and they were being

followed documentary style was how weak the men were in those families. And they were either not present or they were very passive and looked almost like they were just observing this as opposed to participating in what was happening to their children and their family as a result. So I think there's all kinds of consequences around it. And you and Sean talked a bit about the rise of these sort of social media influencers who are these male role models. But Ryan, you also spoke about that in your own family, your father was not present. I'm guessing by talking to you what I think your age is, probably not growing up in the age of social media influencers who could have helped you to find your path to manliness as you describe it. So tell me a little bit more about that journey. How did you go from

being a kid in a single home that you admittedly say, and your mom admittedly says, says, you know, that, you know, wasn't meeting all of your needs as a young man. How did you go from that to where you are now actually helping people to, to appreciate, understand, and, and teach manliness to their, to their sons and be that role model in their own families? I can, I can describe it with two words. It's sports and the military. That's it. My mom introduced me to sports. She forced me to play football when I was younger because she knew I had to get around other men and other coaches. And I had great coaches growing up. In fact, I had one who I really built a good relationship with. And in my sophomore year, he actually cut me from the basketball team. My senior year, he pulled me from my starting position at catcher in baseball. And he's somebody that I still really admire and respect and actually

talk to today more than 20 years later, because he was willing to be hard on me. He didn't do it out of spite. He wasn't doing it in a mean-spirited way, but he cared about me. And so he talked to me about why and he explained things and he helped me with other ventures. And this is somebody I deeply admire and respect. His name is Matt Labrum. So I got a lot of that through sports, which is why I'm so adamant about men coaching sports, because you might be that guy for somebody else. And then I joined the military and I learned a lot about discipline and hardship and working hard and real world consequences to our decisions. And man, that just went such a long way in helping me realize what I needed to do as a man.

But I don't have it figured out even now. I struggle in so many ways. And I have things that I need to work on, improve. I get angry. I'm impatient. I end up hurting the people in my life that I love most because I'm ambitious and I tend to leave a wake of collateral damage in my path at times. These are all things I really need to work on. And so I have other men in my corner and other resources that I turn to and a band of brothers that can help me walk through the challenges that I'm dealing with. You mentioned Jordan Peterson, which by the way, when I was in Congress, he stopped by my office and I had a chance to talk to him for 20 minutes, which I thought was great. But I took a picture with him and I sent it to my oldest son who was

like out of everyone he's met in politics, that was the greatest moment. But I took a picture with him and I sent it to my oldest son who was like, out of everyone he's met in politics, that was the greatest moment that his dad took a picture with Jordan Peterson. And for me, I don't know if you know Jack Brewer, former football player, he's down in Florida. He's a man of faith. Like I look up to Jack Brewer as just like he's like the shining light of masculinity, of a man of faith,

of conviction, and also holding people accountable. I love that man. And he mentors tons of young men in crisis. It's amazing. So Ryan, as we look where we're at today, and whether you're a parent listening to our podcast or you're a young man listening to our podcast, and I don't have a weekend or I don't have a dad to go with, I can't go up to Maine to your retreat, which sounds like it's fascinating. Is it reading the book? Do I read the book and kind of go, I'm going to get some pullaways from the book that helped me go, these are some things that I should be doing. These are steps that I can be making as someone who wants to be a better leader, be a better husband, be a better man.

Do I get that out of the book? Is it the book and the podcast? And as someone's going on this journey who thinks they can be better in this space, what's the answer? thinks they can be better in this space. What's the answer? Well, yes. I think the book, I think the podcast, I think the resources we provide, obviously there's a bias there, of course, but I wouldn't put this information out if I didn't think it would help men. Sure. But more important than even this is go find men in your area that you can work with. And you know how I hear this quite often from women because we have a lot of women who tune into what we're doing and they're like, where are all the real men? Where do the real men go? I hear that a lot. I hear that a lot, actually, Ryan. It's young women especially are craving, you know, I think because of this basement boy thing that's happened and video games and so much, you know, just a masculinization.

I think there's women who have been fed the feminist, you know, line for so long. Get out there. Put your foot on the gas pedal. Go, go, go. What they really want is men to step up. They're looking for that. Where are they? I hear that a lot. I can tell you exactly where they are. They're at business luncheons. They're at the gym. They're at church. All the places, we know where they are. So if you want to be around those guys,

we know where they are. So if you want to be around those guys, then go where those men are. And it's the same. It's actually the same thing with guys when, when it's like, yeah, I would love to have a band of brothers in, in my, in my corner, in my local area, but I don't know where the guys are. Like everybody's interested in, you know, the parties or whatever. Well, you got to go where the men are. Where are they? They're at jujitsu. They're at the gym. They're at business luncheons. Like, so go there. Last night I was at, I said, I was at my son's practice and I saw a guy that I had met a couple of times and his son plays on an opposing team. And you know what I did? This is crazy. It's mind blowing. I actually went over there and I talked to him. Like I went over and I said, Hey man, how's things going? I know he's in real estate. I said, how's the market? What's the market doing? I've heard it's cooling off. And he started

talking about his work and we had a great conversation and next week I'm going to see him and I'm going to have another conversation with him. Or it might be something as simple as you're at a business luncheon or some sort of an event, because that's easy enough to go to. And you meet somebody who is in a similar line of work or something different, but you'd like to learn from them. I mean, people are there to network. So get the guy's number or give him your number or shoot him a valuable resource. I mean, it's not really that hard. You do have to exert yourself. And that's the problem with social media and technology. As wonderful as it is, we expect everything to be delivered to us, right? Like I could be talking about going on a vacation to Hawaii or something, for example, and no less than 60 minutes later,

I'm getting all sorts of emails and alerts and advertisements on Instagram for Hawaiian vacations. Everything is delivered to us on a silver platter and we don't know how to actually go out and assert ourselves. And actually the best answer to that, where should I go in Hawaii is probably to call someone who's been there and get some real life information. You know what? The example you just of like where you find real men. It's like if you're in the East Coast of Central Florida and you sought out those activities

you just talked about, you would meet Dan Bongino because that's what Dan Bongino did too. And he's like, I mean, that's where you'd find Dan Bongino, another real man. And it's like, yeah, you're not going to find them at maybe the latte shop, but they're going to be lifting weights and they're fighting and they're involved in their community.

And you might find them at a little league game coaching or a football game coaching. It's really smart. It's where do you associate yourself? Where are you going? And that'll dictate who you meet and the kind of men you meet that you bring into your life. Really good point. I love that. I was just going to say, it's, it's, it's again, I reiterate it. It's, it's easy. You know, if you see somebody that like, even at the gym, I know this sounds weird, but here's a great example. You go to the gym, it requires humility, but you go to the gym and maybe you're not in as good a shape as I can be. And you go there for the first time and you see a guy that's fit. Okay. I know this sounds weird,

but bear with me on this. You see a guy that's fit. There's no problem with going up to somebody and saying, Hey man, look, you look like you come here a lot. Like you look like you got a good physique. You look strong. You look like you know what you're doing. I have no clue what I'm doing, man. Can you show me, like, can you give me a pointer on my bench press? Like that? I know that sounds weird, but they would love it. They'd be like, of course I will. They're like, yeah, let me show you what I do. Or if you're at the barbecue and a guy's, you know, makes a killer steak, just say, Hey man, like that steak you made, it was delicious. I can't do anything like that.

What's your secret? It's not hard. You just have to exert yourself and put yourself out there a little bit. That is such a great, great point. Both of those, where to go and to find people like this and also how to engage them. Because all of us like to be complimented and like what we can do and talk about it. It's a lot easier than I think we, we make it out to be.

Here's my last question to you, because you talked about the importance of the military and we've been talking in this podcast about, you know, the toxicity label that's been placed on men who are manly or exhibit a lot of masculinity. And the military is a place where you say you learned that and it was pivotal for you, especially coming from a single mom home. I just read an article that, you know, this has been concerning Sean and I for a while that, you know, recruitment is really down, but it's been a while since

we've seen that it's hard to even those men who present themselves to join the military. A lot of them are overweight. Many of them have criminal backgrounds because they haven't been guided for so long. I just read an article by a retired lieutenant general saying that this was a big part of the piece of the puzzle of why recruitment is down. It isn't just that the military has gone woke and it's not attracting the right people. That's one small component. That is a component. But another component is people that are presenting themselves to serve simply can't because they're not fit or they've already gone down a bad path and they can't, their records, maybe criminal records aren't allowing them. So I look at all that, Ryan, and that's to say,

I think this is a national security problem we have at some point with masculinity. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I don't even know what to say to that. You're absolutely right. This is the reason why men need to, part of the reason men need to step up because if you look at these young men, they don't have guidance. They don't have direction. So they have their masculinity that's coursing through their veins. I look at my 14 year old son and he challenges me. He pushes on me. He wants to contend with me. He sometimes he comes up and he bumps into me. Like he can take me, you know, playfully he's trying to assert himself in a situation. And I need to be able to take that.

That's a good thing. I don't, I'm not mad about that. I actually, I like that. I think that's good. And it's my job to show him in a loving environment, a place where I do care about him deeply, what he can do to take that aggression, take that energy, take that desire to dominate or even be violent and then use that effectively and productively. Because look, this is why we see school shootings.

This is why I think I saw a statistic that the majority of school shooters are pumped full of medicine. Typically, it's depressant type medicine or attention type medicine for like ADHD, this type of thing. And they have a lacking father figure. Okay. Well, let's address that. Like, let's get the fathers in the homes. Let's get the fathers in the communities for those who don't have fathers in the homes. Let's stop pumping them full of medicine. Let's find healthy and productive outlets for their energy and their aggression. Let's not demonize it. Let's celebrate it and encourage them to use it in positive ways and see what that does for society and for our military to your point a minute ago yeah channel it channel it ryan listen i i want to thank you for um doing our podcast i just we we uh saw your book and and your podcast and all

that you're doing on this topic and we think it's so important um for for the success of the country um that we have young men be. And I think it's a conversation that we can't have enough. And there's the good guys like you who are out there who are making a career out of going, you know what? I'm going to take my sword out and I'm going to fight this fight to make sure that I'm saving America by saving young men in America and making sure they're manly. I love that. And I want to thank you for your work and be a good example for all of us out there. And again, admitting we're all not perfect. We're all a work in progress. We're all getting better. We're all challenged in different areas. And we admit that and we still strive to be better. But through the process,

we're manly men. And again, thanks for doing this. And thanks for all your great work. Yeah, Ryan, we think it's great. The book is called The Masculine Manifesto, How a Man Establishes Influence, Credibility, and Authority. The podcast is Order of Man. You can get online and get all of those things to follow Ryan, to learn more. Ryan, my husband, Sean, always says, if you want to save America, save your family. And there's so much in this book towards that end.

So we thank you for joining us. And we appreciate all the good work you're putting out into the world. Thank you very much, you guys. I really appreciate the opportunity. Of course. Thank you, Ryan. Take care. Thanks, Ryan.

Wait right there. We're going to have more of that conversation next. Upper Canada College inspires boys from senior kindergarten to year 12 to find their passions and realize their potential. An IB World School, UCC offers a supportive environment, cutting-edge facilities and a best in Canada financial assistance program UCC a place where tradition excellence and innovation meet learn more about all that UCC has to offer at ucc.on.ca well that was an interesting conversation Sean

yeah listen I I loved what he had to say. And again, my two takeaways from the conversation with Ryan was, again, I'm not perfect. I'm a work in progress. And I think that's really important to tell people that we're all working and striving. And though I hold myself out as an expert on this space because I'm pretty good at it, I'm not perfect in this space. And again, I think that's a sign of masculinity and manliness to admit that you're not perfect. I love that part of it. Yeah, the vulnerability of it. saying, you know, find people in your community. And this is where you find manly men. I mean, like that, that for me, a light bulb. And I'm like, he's at, I couldn't, he was, he was explaining where to go. And I'm like, ding, ding, ding, Dan Boncino. This is where this is where you can find

Dan Boncino. He's following Dan. And I'm sure. Or even, or, or, or even Jack Brewer. I mean, it's true. You find them at the gym, you find them at Jiu Jitsu, you find them at church, you find them at community events. You find them on the football and soccer field coaching and helping out. It's a great, great point because it seems like people can be like, well, you know, my dad sucked and now I can't, you know, develop into the person I'm supposed to be. Well, no, not really. There's all these other people that you could find in your lives. And by the way, we didn't get to talk about it, Sean, but there are a lot of men who never got married or widowers or grandparents who can become that father figure for a young man that they see is struggling in

some way. So there's there's roles for for men that that roles for men that doesn't just have to be father, son. And if that's lacking, there's other places to find that influence and learn and even just become friends, as he said, like go to the gym and find somebody that you admire. And that buff guy at the gym might become your next best friend because, you know, you asked him that question. And I think what you find is, you know, there's, there's, there's different, there's like, I'll, I'll pick up something from Bongino or in Jack Brewer, right. Those are,

those are two people that I have in my personal life that if I go to dinner with either of them or have a, a drink with them, I'm like, Oh, that's interesting that that's what, that's what, that's what Dan does. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't take it all, but there's, there's different little points that you get when you associate with people who are great men, good men. But also Sean, the importance of male friendships for men. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really important. And then who are we choosing to be friends with? Right. And that goes to the point of, again, if you're meeting the guy with the beanie and the, I'm

dissing beanies, but sipping his latte with his Birkenstocks, that might not be the guy that's going to lead you to manliness, but you can find other people in your life in other places that if you're looking for it and you strike up friendships and you're just colleagues, you're associates, those things can be really wonderful, I think, for men. And I thought my point was great. I'm sorry. But this is, I'm sorry for promoting my own point. But listen, this is what men want.

Jordan Peterson is Jordan Peterson. Bongino is Bongino. Jocko is Jocko because there is a hunger for this with young American boys. This is what they want. This is what they're yearning for. And if they didn't get it somewhere in their life, they're getting it with the relationship they have on some of these podcasts. And then they can go seek it out in their everyday life. But I think it's really important that we go, this is something that a need that young men

have to fill that's not being filled in other ways. And again, it's why these men are so popular. And what are these men offering? They're saying, you know, Jordan Peterson is saying, you know, take responsibility. First thing in your life, just make your bed, create order in your life.

I think it's interesting that Ryan's podcast is called order of men. I'm sure he meant it as like a group of men, but there is something about order and structure and leadership. And you look at, you know, Jocko, it's about discipline and working out. I've had podcasts with him often. But young men want someone to set a standard for them that they can meet. And this sort of loosey-goosey, anything goes, doesn't ultimately, first of all, it doesn't ultimately lead to happiness, right? And it doesn't fulfill what men want.

And Ryan talked about that, that need to be challenged. People, you know, successful people aren't just happy retiring and sitting on the beach. They still need that challenge in life. They still need to be pushed. And the way to learn to do that is to be around people that are like that. And whether it's through social media influencers, a book, a podcast, or finding, which I think is a better way to do it, finding those people in your community who can fill that gap. You brought, you brought up an interesting point. And I say this all the time to, you know, I have a wide range of, you know, age of men that I'm, you know, friends with.

And the older men that I know who are going to retire, I'm like, listen, when men retire and they clean their garage or go fishing and hunting or vacation on the beach, they die. Men need, they do. And I mean, we all know those people in our life who thought they're going to have the best 20 years of their life. And I'm going to do nothing with my life in those 20 years. They don't make it because there's something in men. Well, men have to be challenged and whether you're, whether you're, you know, 12 or 22 or, or 72 or 82, I think men still have that need. And again, I think the men who just go home to their wives after they retire, they drive their wives absolutely bonkers. So if you're going to retire, I do think that men have to find other challenges

in their life, other missions in their life. And if not, it doesn't work out for them. And again, I think that speaks to the whole course of someone's life that you do want to challenge. You do want to work. You do want to strive. And I think it's really important to not be afraid to fail. Again, I mean, listen, sometimes you do some things and you can embarrass yourself. And I'm a testament to that. I've embarrassed myself a lot, but I could have not embarrassed myself and not been in the field. And I think it's really important to go, no, I'm going to play the game. I'm going to actually try to do something and I might not make it, but I'm going to actually

make the effort. One space I didn't try, Rachel, is in the congressional baseball game. I'm like, I couldn't embarrass myself enough in Congress without playing baseball in front of, I don't know how many. I was disappointed that you didn't do sports there. I'm like, I'm not doing that. That's the one thing I'm like, I'm not going to do that. They had hockey too, and you didn't do that. I should have played hockey. That would have embarrassed myself far less in hockey

than I would have in baseball. But again, I've taken enough challenges in my life, but I do think that, again, we can't be afraid of that. And I think, Ryan, what a beacon of light, what a, what a guy who says, you know what, I came from this and this is where I'm at. And it came from sports and the military. Pete Hegseth is, is kind of, obviously it comes from a really good family, but if you look at the discipline that Pete has, it comes from this, this, this order of man that I think maybe got that in his house, but I'm sure it was duplicated in the military. Do you know who has the neatest office at Fox? It's Pete. And I used

to think that it was because his wife works in the building. And I thought, well, maybe, and I've said, oh, Jen keeps your office nice and clean. He got really offended. Pete is a neat freak. He is all about order order it's a military thing and you know my dad sean my dad also 32 years in the military you'll never meet a neater um more disciplined man than um than my dad so the military it's interesting it is good advice so if you meet some a young man who seems directionless maybe doesn't have have a good father figure in his life. The military is an amazing place for people to learn, to grow, and to sort of fill in those gaps that maybe they didn't get before. You can hear it from Ryan.

That's important. And it's really sad right now that young men, because of video games and everything else, are just so out of shape. They can't even have that option. And so the masculinity thing is a national security problem. Our country would be better if we dealt with these issues. It's happiness. It's fulfillment. It's being someone that a woman actually wants to marry. And it's national security. A lot of things come into play. Listen, Rachel, thank you. You found Ryan to do this podcast. Thank you for actually caring about masculinity and manliness. It is a male and female issue.

Well, that's why I married a lumberjack. I married a lumberjack because I was smart enough to know I wanted a manly man. And guess what? There's a lot of young women out there. By the way, future podcasts, we are going to do something with Kaylee McEnany's sister who started a website for conservatives because there's a lot of women out there looking for masculine men and we need to narrow that pool so they aren't so frustrated in the dating field. Yes, connect them. So great topic for the future.

Yes. And if you like our podcast, you can rate, review, subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, give us some five bars or whatever you do with your podcast rating stars. But I want to thank you for joining us. I think on this really important topic of masculinity and manliness from the kitchen table, great conversation with you, Rachel. And again, thank you for being a woman who cares about men. I do. I look forward to joining all of you around the kitchen table next Great conversation with you, Rachel. And again, thank you for being a woman who cares about men. I do. And I look forward to joining all of you around the kitchen table next time. Bye, everybody. Contrast of perspectives you won't hear anywhere else. Your daily dose of news twice a day.

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