From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - The Crisis Of Young Men In America

Episode Date: May 26, 2022

This week, Sean and Rachel bring Dr. Helen Smith, Forensic Psychologist specializing in violent children and adults, to The Kitchen Table to discuss violence in young boys and how it pertains to the Uvalde, Texas school shooting. Dr. Smith explains that the hostility towards masculinity that has taken place over the past few years has resulted in younger generations acting out in drastic ways, such as school shootings. She later gives parents advice on how to treat their children and begin the healing process so tragic events like these don't happen again. Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm your host, Sean Duffy, along with my co-host for the podcast, but also my partner in life,

Rachel Campos Duffy. Thank you, Sean. So glad to have all of you at our kitchen table today and boy we have a really heavy week hasn't it Sean? It's been a really heavy week. It's been a heavy week and I think everyone's trying to figure out this situation in Uvalde and it's just one too many of these incidents that have happened. It's just so heartbreaking and as we've heard our politicians talk about what they think the problem is and what the solutions are, you and I have been pretty adamant and we've been pretty vocal all week

on TV talking about how we think there's something troubling our culture, something about young men and the state of childhood and young adulthood for young men. What is happening there? We thought we need to bring in an expert. And boy, did we find the most amazing expert. Her name is Dr. Helen Smith. She is a forensic psychiatrist from Knoxville, Tennessee. She specializes, Sean, in violent children and adults. I don't normally, you know, run through everyone's bio, but I think it's important in this topic to really give just for our audience to understand just how steep she is in this subject. She wrote a book called The Scarred Heart, Understanding and Identifying Kids Who Kill.

She also wrote and produced a documentary. It's called Six, and it's about a family who was murdered in Tennessee by a group of teens. So this is someone who's really studied this subject. I'm so honored to have on our show to help us break all this down and help us come to an understanding of what is happening in our culture. Dr. Helen Smith, welcome to our kitchen table. Thank you so much, Rachel and Sean, for having me on today. This is such an important topic. And I did just want to clarify, I am a forensic psychologist, not a psychiatrist. Oh boy. Okay. Not that it matters, but just letting people know.

Doctor, not to make a joke, but does the laity know the difference between the two? No, not really. I mean, people just call everybody, you know, from a therapist to whatever a psychologist, we do testing and evaluation, which is part of what helps us understand a little bit deeper into what is really going on with people. Psychiatrists tend to, they do therapy, but they also prescribe medication. is more methods to evaluate people and do, you know, do testing and understand a little bit more subconsciously what's happening to people. Um, you know, Dr. Sean is a former prosecutor. So he dealt with people who helped prepare people for court, uh, court appearances and things like that. And sometimes I get corrected on the stand up, but my expert witness, and that's, sorry, this is a minor issue, but I just want to clarify. I know. I think it's good. So listen, I mean, I don't think this situation that happened in could be any worse. I mean, it's just so horrific. What goes through your mind when you,

you know, when you came upon, you know, this information and who the killer was, this young man, um, 18 years old, who went into the school with a gun, who just shot his grandmother and then came to the school and did this unspeakable act. I guess I look at it and I say I'm not surprised. And I guess what surprises me as a forensic psychologist is that it does not happen more often. I'm amazed at how much self-control, unfortunately, so many of these kids have and how many depressed young men are out there who never do anything. And those are the people we need to reach.

But what I want to say is people don't really understand this. And I've been reading this morning about, you know, different people with their take on what's happening. For example, I'll read something called The Angry Young Man about how these men are just misogynistic young men who don't, you know, who just are out of control. And that's the very, the very act of saying that is what drives some of these young people to do things. First of all, I wrote a book in 2013 called Men on Strike. It's why men in our society are treated politically and socially as pariahs. Boys in our society are treated like second-class citizens, and everybody says to them, you are privileged, and nobody will help or reach out to them. I spent many years in my practice. I've been practicing literally since, gosh, the 80s.

And I've seen so many young men and middle-aged men and older in my practice, and all of them are very similar. I've dealt with young men like this and, you know, who haven't gone on to unspeakable acts. And the reason they don't is that somebody somewhere saw what was happening and reached out. And I'm not saying that people don't reach out to these kids. They do in ways that don't really matter. But if you see the commonality, one of the commonalities I really want to point out is that none of these kids or a huge proportion of them have no father. And I think in our society, our political class has driven this father out of our families, or if they're in the family, they have a very peripheral role. Now,

I wouldn't say that about Sean. I mean, you have nine kids and you've got this hands-on day, you know, you've got, so, you know, I think your kids are probably in great condition because they've got a great dad, but this child did not have that. We don't really hear anything about the dad. I know I saw something about, there was the mother. Yeah. There was a mother who is on drugs. Very common. There's a grandmother who tries to reach out and help. And usually the person who reaches out and tries to help the kid is kind of the one that sometimes will get injured. The other thing I want to point out is that this kid, they'll say, oh, you know, there's no mental health issues. You know, of course there were. This kid was going

around town shooting people with a BB gun. That's very serious. And what I find in my practice has been that prior to doing these types of things, if you look back many years, you will find that these kids are always committing low-level crimes that nobody does anything about. In our society, there's no repercussions. There's no, people don't reach out and say you know what that's terrible you don't shoot people with a bb gun we're going to take consequences against you nobody does that can i stop for a second there because that's it's such an interesting point that you brought up because when i read the story the story of this young man we don't know a lot about Salvador Ramos, the 18-year-old who committed this crime. But the little bit that I did hear, I could see he was reaching out, that these were signs that he was committing these, as you call them, low-level crimes or not so low-level with the BB gun.

That's dangerous. But that he was reaching out. I also thought it was interesting that he went on social media and he he put out the message I'm going to do this he wants to be stopped and by the way the person he sent it to was something he didn't even know very well in in Los Angeles which shows me that he probably doesn't have very close relationships um the people we worked with or if he has any relationships that are close, the people are not going to do anything to help him. He felt helpless. He felt there was

nobody out there and he's just laughing. And in fact, if you actually look at what he did, there was a friend he had who moved away again. You know, there was another boy his age who was his friend and a friend moved away. And so he probably felt doubly like there was nobody for him. And he had told his, his friend had seen him one day and he cut up his face and cutting is a very common, um, a lot of teens cut, believe it or not. I mean, something like 25, why do they do that? Um, they do that for various reasons. A boy like that would do it as a cry for help. They do it because it releases endorphins. It makes them feel like somebody, at least I can feel something. And also for him, I imagine just looking at him personally, I think for him, it may have meant, and again, I haven't evaluated him obviously,

or ever talked to him, but I think for him personally, it meant that he, he wanted somebody to see how desperate he was. He was so desperate. He was willing to cut his own face, but nobody really noticed nor did they care. And he kind of laughed it off, but he was really looking for help. And this is very common for boys because they don't know how to ask for help. Girls often try to attempt suicide and a suicide attempt is a cry for help, but boys reach out in different ways and it's often in violence. And their last, this last act was his last, his last reach for help. And it was obvious that nobody was going to give it to him. Ivan read something about another person who he had reached out to. He wanted to hear her voice, she said.

He had asked her, she was a gaming friend. And again, you know, I don't blame her. Why would you want to share your voice or get on the phone with somebody like who is obviously unstable? Of course not. But it does show that he was reaching out, trying to like get some human connection. Like if there was somebody who could, I could talk to, and I'm not saying that would have put a total stop to it, but this boy needed mental health and nobody cares about our boys. Nobody at the schools care. Nobody, I mean, people do not care. They think boys are fine. We are told it's only girls who need help, and our boys are dismissed, and as long as that's going to keep happening, and we're going to keep denigrating boys in our

society and men, we will continue to see these act, and it is amazing. They are as few as they are. I do want to point out that this year, in 2021, there have been 61 of these types of mass killings. And it's increased. I believe that's because the pandemic is isolating these boys further. They don't have any social skills. Their social skills are, you know, it's another it's another casualty of this pandemic where we've locked everybody down and left these boys to fend for themselves. And it's a tragedy. I mean, for us and for them. And I you know, when I when I look at this, I just say, well, it's it's very difficult to know exactly where to start because there's. Go ahead. I think this is a this is a crisis moment uh maybe this crisis has been burning for 10 years 20 years it is but it's we're in a crisis time and i think

you see everybody i was in politics for for almost 10 years i was in the congress everyone comes out with their you know rifle shot excuse that pun um pun, idea on how we fix this. But I think if we're really honest, we have to dig deep to go, what is happening with young men in America? Rachel and I, some of our kids were graduating. We noticed that at graduation, all the girls got honors and none of the boys were getting honors. Some of the, you look at the grades, girls are excelling, boys are not. And it's not that we don't want girls to succeed, but we don't want girls to succeed at the expense of boys. We want all kids to succeed.

We do and parents do, but the society, when I say the society, the political class that we have right now, it is an advantage to them to have boys fail. And what we're doing is a minor number of people, mostly white, you know, feminist type of women, and I'm not saying they're totally to blame, but they're part of the issue. And they are hostile towards our young men, the society is hostile towards our young men. And until people override that political class that sees our young men as expendable and sees them as pariahs,

just listen around you and look around you and you will see evidence of this everywhere. I have no problem with, whenever I go anywhere, I will hear people just say derogatory things about boys, about men. It's just very common. And don't, don't women want to have strong boys? Don't they want someone to be able to marry? Don't they want a healthy man? If you actually look around you, I talk about this in my book, Men on Strike. It's a book about why men don't want to get married anymore. It is because men are being asked now to provide everything and to lose everything.

They are the ones who are to be responsible in marriage. Women say they want a strong man, and they do until that man does anything that crosses them. Then they're like, okay, the kids are mine. The house is mine. I think men know in this society that they really don't have any rights. I always ask people, they'll go on, men are so privileged. And I'll say, name me one reproductive right a man has. Not yet have I ever had anybody to name that. Men don't really have, I mean, men really don't have a whole lot of rights, especially in the home. And again, going back to this young man, he just didn't really have anywhere to turn. And he

probably doesn't hear any, anything that leads him to believe he has any hope for the future. And when boys like this become hopeless and depressed, they act out angrily. They act out, they don't, it's not, you know, like a girl might be, you know, sit home or something, but oftentimes with boy, it is expressed by anger. Right. And they don't have a dad that will come in and fathers in the home, teach boys how to express anger correctly and sadness and all that stuff. I totally agree with you. And by the way, my husband had an amazing interview this week with Jack Brewer. Jack Brewer is a man who works with young men,

and he's been talking about the lack of, you know, the denigration of masculinity and fatherlessness and male and toxicity. But let me let me counter you for just a second here, because in preparation for this interview, I started to go back and look at some of the interviews that Dylan Klebold from, uh, Columbine's mom gave, and she ended up writing a book. Now this young man came from a two parent home. Um, and it was interesting because when, when the Columbine incident happened at first the parents said i don't want to talk about it and they wanted their privacy and they were mourning their son and trying to grapple with what happened and i remember as a young mom thinking i i want to know what happened

there i i she did she the the clebolds need to tell us what happened in that home so we can learn from this experience as a culture as a society and eventually she did end up writing a book she did an oprah interview what if you what that was a two-parent home what was missing there what's missing just in because i mean i agree with you the the the fatherlessness is a is a problem but It's only one part of the problem. And I think what's happening in the culture at large affects everybody, no matter what your family arrangement is. It is.

And I'm not saying that it is only fatherless. They're usually fatherless in 70 or 80% of the time. So sometimes you're going to have a different, you know, and there are so many factors that go into it. It is sort of like, it is sort of like a cancer where there was one point of failure after the next that failed. People used to think it was just one massive thing in your body with cancer. And now they've learned, you know, one thing after the next. And it's the same with violent kids or boys in this sense that

it may not be just the home life. It could be, you know, with Dylan Klebel in the Columbine Massacre, they were harassed and bullied at school. But this kid was bullied too. Yes. And that's another factor that does go into it. Now, is that the only factor? Absolutely not. But it's a number of things.

It's one thing after the next. I'm being bullied at school. I don't have anywhere to turn. Dad might have taught me how to do something, how to, you know, and also on drugs, my grandma who doesn't understand what's happening, but in, in, you know, in other cases, it could be that there's a dad in the home, but the dad doesn't really understand what's happening. It doesn't really, we don't encourage fathers to teach kids anymore. A lot of times dads just tell you don't fight anymore. You know, we're told don't do this, don't do that.

But we're never told how to handle things. Children in our society don't have the resilience anymore. I mean, there is no resilience. We don't teach resilience. People don't, you teach everybody in our schools. They're all dumbing down with everybody gets surprised unless you're a boy, at which point all the girls stand up and get honors. If you're a boy, at which point all the girls stand

up and get honors. If you're a boy, you're not, people do not teach children how to be resilient. They teach them that you are the best, you can succeed at anything and you will be anything that you want to be. This all started sort of with the, you know, this, so the whole self-esteem movement, and this started around in the sixties and seventies, and it's been going on ever since. At the same time, we're not allowed to say anything bad about kids. I used to have kids that were, they were really bad. And if they acted up at school, if I would call the school, part of my, one of my degrees, you know, I have a degree in school in clinical psychology. So I would work at these schools and I'd call the school and maybe I've worked with kids. I'd call the school and I try to talk to the teacher about what was going on with the kid.

And they'd always tell me the kid was fine, really good, never had a problem. So what I would do is send a test out to the teacher that would have a specific situation, like, has the child acted in this manner? When I got it back, it was like, yes, the kid was troublesome. Yes, the kid was having problems. But the teacher was so afraid to say anything. People are so afraid of either, you know, they don't want to say anything bad about a child. They're taught not to make waves. And that's how our school systems are today. So it really is a combination of all the things that are going on in the school. And currently with the pandemic, I think people are falling through the cracks. I think this kid felt was falling through the cracks like so many others out there. Nobody even noticed that he was no

longer going to school. Apparently, I guess he was working a job, others out there. Nobody even noticed that he was no longer going to school. Apparently, I guess he was working a job, which he quit. Nobody tried to find out why did he quit? You know, no one cared about him. We'll be right back with much more after this. Breaking news coming in from Bet365, where every nail-biting overtime win, breakaway, pick six, three-point shot,

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I don't want to go to solutions today because I don't think you can think about solutions until you really identify the problems. I don't think we're doing a good job of recognizing the problem that's created in society. And so we've talked about fatherlessness. You've mentioned a couple times the pandemic. I think this social media and the internet have brought boys into this, to this dark, dark, lonely space. I think there's a lack of connection. You have society around you that doesn't really value you as much. They value maybe others, but they don't value you. And I think, I want to talk about this as well, not kind of what you see is all the problems before we get to solutions but I also think there's something about saying that if you're a male it's this toxic masculinity frankly I had boys over my house this last weekend they're

rambunctious they're up in the pool and they're diving off the diving board I'm like and yes it's kind of annoying it's funny because there were girls there too my kids had a pool party at the house so there was different ages and there were boys and girls and boy i mean you just see it right there they just act different i have a weight room in my house they're down there pulling out weights and lifting and they're going like one thing the next but that's that's what boys do that's not that's not toxic that's just being a young man and these are healthy good kids but they got a lot of energy and they want to do a lot of things and they're using their bodies and we demonize that as a as a culture instead of

going you know what this is this is the other half of the of the human side and we should celebrate and we medicate it actually i think there's a lot of medicating of boys who are just acting like boys am i crazy about that no you're not crazy at all. Every, you know, boys all have ADHD and they're given medication at the schools because the schools now there is no one has ADHD today. Oh, well the internet makes everybody like that. But if a boy acts up at school and an AR ramp, I was just like, you're saying a normal boy can certainly be medicated because the teachers, first of all, the teachers don't have any way to discipline. You're not allowed to discipline. You're not allowed to do anything to a kid. So basically they just

medicate them or give them a video game or tell them to just, you know, sit down, shut up. I mean, you've got all these kids, you know, the iPad kids today, everybody just hands them an iPad. You're not allowed to spank a child or do anything. I'm not saying that's, you know, a good or bad thing. I'm just saying we don't have any, we have no way to really have any consequences for children too much in our society. You know, what else is happening, doctor is in addition to what you're saying right there is it's not just the teachers. I mean, it used to be when I was a kid, you left your bike in the middle of the road, or you, you, you know, through a ball, you know, through a window, I I mean a neighbor mom could come up and go hey what are you doing or get your bike out of the road or or you know like there was a you were allowed to

I wouldn't say discipline but scold or whatever other another child that was misbehaving nowadays that is so frowned upon I have to I'm guilty of it too. I would, I could possibly see a kid misbehaving and I would never interfere because, but, but then again, that's that whole connection, right? If we're a community and the parent's not there to see it happening, who steps in to say, I care enough to tell you that's not the right thing to do. And I think- Nobody, nobody. And there too, and people, even good people like you are afraid to do it. Nobody will do it because they know either the parent's going to attack them or somebody will.

And we don't have communities anymore. People move. Again, you know, people, it's great that people move. It's great that people, you know, travel, do things. But it does present another problem, which is that people don't know each other as well. Their communities aren't as tight. This boy did just move, you know, up from another community and he, he probably did feel isolated. And you're right. We don't have, uh, we used to have multiple kinds of parents and neighbors and other, and teachers, and those people aren't

really allowed to do anything anymore. And people are afraid, uh, people are afraid. I would, you're right. If you said anything to a kid, you're just going to be attacked by other anymore. And people are afraid. People are afraid. Right. If you said anything to a kid, you're just going to be attacked by other people and you don't know what the repercussions to you would be. So people just, just like with this kid, everybody just stayed out of his way and let him go on his merry way until he did this. And now everybody's talking about him. And this is what these kids want, because that's how, this is the only way, if you can see what's happening, this is the only way that they could get the attention in their death or in their, this moment. And they, and they think about this moment. You have to understand what's in their mind. They're going through, they're rehearsing,

they're thinking about this killing. Their, their mind is like, they rehearse it. This kid could have stood in front of the mirror looking at himself. He had on body armor. That's very common. He had different kinds of guns that looked very dangerous. This is just something that is like a rehearsal and it gives him a feeling of power. And this kid had said to people, when he would get rejected, he'd say, you don't know who I am. What he really meant that I have the ability to hurt you because you are hurting me by ignoring me and by, you know, the fact that my life is so bad and nobody understands and nobody will help me. And this final act was his way of saying, you know, I've given up, I'm hopeless. And I, this is his legacy.

And I, and what you have to understand, there are many others like him out there now. And I and what you have to understand, there are many others like him out there now. It's very it's rare. The shootings seem like they're every day. They're not. They're rare, but they are increasing. And I think that we have to, as a society over like instead of the politicians running all of this, everybody has to stand up and say, you know, I'm not going to put up with this. I'm not going to give in. And it's hard though, because when you see it, like you said, like when you do see a child in need, you are afraid. And I think that fear is going to keep people from reaching out more. Because we, we don't know where that will lead. more because we don't know where that will lead. So, doctor, take me in almost the mind of a young person like this, because just my common sense, which I go to, would say here he's had this conflict with his grandmother. And obviously he has a relationship with her. We don't know about his dad.

We're not sure about his mom, but the grandmother was in his life. And she was giving him a hard time about not finishing school. So she's at least someone who cared about him, that wanted him to do well. Someone in his life who wanted him to have a future. And in that argument, I believe he shot her in the face or in the head. he I believe he shot her in the face or in the head yeah so for me I would think that though you might have run that that horrific situation through your head numerous times when you actually do the act of shooting your grandmother that that might snap you out of it you might be like kicked out of this psychosis and this dream state that you're in that you actually shot your grandmother in the head and the blood and the pain and the screaming and all dream state that you're in that you actually shot your grandmother in the head and the blood and the pain and the screaming and all of that that would happen would would put him on a on a different plane but it didn't i think you have to understand the mindset you're if the person is um we don't really know what was going through his mind we don't know that he was

psychotic there's certainly a possibility of that i don't't know, but I would say that, you know, you're being looking at it from a rational side. He's gotten to the point where that all he knows, these kids want to bring this to a climactic conclusion. And that conclusion is once he opens fire on the grandmother, this, if you actually look back at numerous of these school shootings, the child lashes out and kills the parent, grandparent yeah that's true remember with uh with the sandy hook kid he killed his mother first right they usually do and because there's the anger towards the family um they may just represent something she may represent all of the things the grandmother like finally here is somebody who, you know, a lot of times too,

these kids have a grandiose and at the same time, they feel terrible about themselves. They also have what's, you know, narcissistic tendencies in many of these kids. When I did my studies in the nineties on some of these kids, one of the major things I found was that many of them, especially the school shooters have what we call too high self-esteem where they think they are such a high level person that they don't understand why people are treating them so badly. So they see the discrepancy between the way they are treated and how they feel about themselves, which is, I am the best person and why you don't understand that. And I'm going to get back at you. And they will go after and get revenge on people who they think are trying to cut them down to size. So when this boy saw his grandmother going through his head, possibly could be that, you know what, she's trying to tell me again, why I'm no good. And I, you know, that he had

already decided at some point he was going to do this thing with the high school and her, that may have been the impetus, the fight, you know, know got him angry he was going to put it you know he was angry at her we don't know what else was going on um but i don't think that i think that once they start the rampage i think they're in a mindset it's almost like they've yeah they've almost gone into a robotic like state that's why it's almost impossible once a kid's gotten into that state one of the things i've always you know know, I hate to say not enjoyed, but like one of the things I've treasured about my work over the years has been, I always hope that people bring those kids before they get to that point so that I can work with them.

And that's happened over time. And one of the reasons I got interested is one of the first kids that I saw over 20 something years ago had, was brought to me because he was trying to kill a school principal. And at that time, nobody really listened. I mean, I would call the school and try to explain what was happening. And they sort of laughed the boy, he was nine. I mean, nobody was going to really listen at that point thinking a nine-year-old was fine. But later when they saw that he was truly dangerous, they did reach out and they allowed me to come to the school to work with him there and to, you know, to that they finally

understood. So, you know, when kids get into that train, they get almost go into a trance like state. It's almost like a predator on the prowl. And that's what you have to understand is in the mind. Were you able to intervene in that situation? Does this boy get turned around? Absolutely. Yes. If you're able to catch this, you know, behavior earlier enough and show them that someone cares, you can put them on a new path. You can, I'm not saying a hundred percent of the time you can't save everyone, but yes, in general, you know know if you can intervene and get somebody who can help them and it's not just that as um i am a cognitive behavioral psychologist

i think intervening in the they have a lot of very very twisted thoughts and those are the thoughts that you have to kind of work with and say hey you know um did you ever think about something like this or you might say and get the person to, you know, the kid to open up. And everyone used to tell me, oh, boys don't talk. They'll never really, they'll come in and you won't hear from them. I've never had a boy that didn't talk. They all sit down, they look at you, they kind of size you up and then they start talking and they tell you what's wrong. And when you hear what's wrong, you have a chance, you have a chance to say, Hmm, you know, to work with that person, to develop a relationship with

that, with that boy and boys do take a more active role. I mean, you may have to, you know, in my practice, I've gone on walks with boys. I played games with boys, you know, like, you know, like talk to them about video games. You have to kind of get into their world and be interested in their world and talk to them in ways that they can relate to. And I think sometimes the boys, like I remember after Adam Lanza happened, I started reading from, you know, articles written by other parents who had very troubled kids who said, listen, I thought my son was going to kill

me. And I tried to drop them off at a, you know, mental health place. Like I, I knew I didn't have skills and the ability to handle this. And there's, and this was by the way, years ago, I don't remember how long ago Sandy Hook was, but mental health services are even more strained. Now there's less people in the field. There's more demand for it. So there's no help. our mental health facility that we had in Knoxville, Tennessee, where I'm from, has been turned into a park for people to enjoy. The people who had mental problems are just kind of supposedly put out in the community. I don't, you know, has that happened? Most of them now are homeless and wandering around with mental illness on the streets, which is quite common. So part of that is that mental illness now, we sort of just don't really do anything about it. That was what my

film, the film I wrote, Six, was sort of about how the kids in the film, there were six teenagers, and they all had mental problems. One of them, in fact, was sent to a center where they kept her a few days. They said she was homicidal and dangerous, but they just released her back out, which is very, very common. And this has been going on for, you know, really from the 60s, 70s and 80s. It's been a really long time. So there really isn't any help I feel for those parents. I worked at juvenile court here in Knoxville and we would, we would have parents that would come in and they were desperate. They didn't know where to turn. And there you can't, that's why a lot of these kids do end up in jail or a juvenile facility because there's no mental health services. So the kid does something or the parents just, that's the only help they can get is going to

jail. And it's the same for adults who are mentally ill. A lot of times they end up in, in jail rather than getting the help that they need. People talk a lot about being aware of mental health illness, this, that, and the other thing, but I don't, there's nobody who's actually going to do anything. It is, as a sole practitioner, it was very difficult. I'm mostly retired now. But I, I do feel for any parent out there who has a kid who is dangerous because it really is, there isn't a whole lot of health out there.

And it's, you know, parents aren't equipped in today's world. Sometimes it's very, very difficult. And so if you're kind of left on your own with a kid, it's, you know, people don't have as many family members and they don't have people who are willing to help. And I think with all of those factors, a lot of kids like this slip through the cracks. And I think we do need a nationwide conversation about all of these things, because there are so many various angles and things that we need to look into from the schools to the communities, to the way that we talk. And if I have anything to say out there to anyone listening, the first thing I would say is

when you hear somebody denigrating a boy or men in our society, don't just sit back and say, ha ha. Don't laugh. It's not funny. It's not funny. And men may laugh about it because that's kind of what they do.

They're taught not to react, you know. But it's harmful. It's hurting our boys and it's hurting our men. And I, I wish that people at least would change their own behavior. And then hopefully they're, you know, it might reach a boy like this one day and make them feel just a little bit better that they're not toxic, that their toxicity it's that they aren't toxic, that they have value in this world. We'll have more of this conversation after this.

As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month at Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at fizz.ca. Dr. Leiden, that's a really good point. And so I always talk about politics, right?

In politics, everyone wants to, you know, change the president or change the senator and change the congressman, right? Or keep their congressman in to change the direction of the country. And I always say that the most important thing you can do if you want to change the course of the country is take care of your family. You have the most control over the kids in your home, the kids that you raise, the kids that you love, the kids that you get an education for. And I wonder, again, society is not you. We all don't have the skill set that you have to deal with mental illness and other professionals have. But is there something that every single American can do to say, you know, what if I see a kid

who might be, you know, might be excluded? You can tell that they're lonely. They don't have any friends. They're a little bullied. They're maybe starting to dress a little bit odd. They're doing things that aren't normal. I think a lot of us are so busy in our lives. I'm just trying to prop. I mean, we got so many things going on and we're pulled in so many different directions. It's easier not to say, hey, I'm going to give some time to this child. But if we all did that, if we all stepped in and said, hey, we're going to participate, we're going to give something to someone who needs it if more of us did that not that we can deal with mental illness but can we see less of fewer kids slide into these

these states that are so dangerous where you know a kid will pick up a gun and shoot a grandmother but then the place they pick is i mean a place where you know five six seven eight year old kids go to school. I mean, the most horrific place you could pick. They do it because they feel like, number one, they could identify with that age. Like I was hurt. You know, this boy is thinking I was hurt at that age. He had a speech impediment and he was hurt at that age. And people choose those targets, which they know will hurt the adults the most. What would hurt an adult more than to destroy a young, their young child? It's, it's the, the, they are so, they are so hurt themselves that they will do anything

they can to hurt other people. And you, you have to, that hurt is ultimately a driving force. And you can see it. And I agree. I mean, it's hard to just, it's what's hard is to say, you know, just reach out and help. This sounds like a very general thing, but I think one thing I would say, like, to be more specific, don't be afraid. You know, I mean, I actually, kids reach, people reach out to me and I can't help everybody but sometimes you have to put that aside and say you know what I'm going to reach out to this one person because just dealing with this one person can make a difference for that person and it doesn't have to be someone

you think is going to be a school shooter it could just be that kid who's just a sad boy yes you notice and it could be the neighbor boy you could be a neighbor it could just be that kid who's just a sad boy yes you notice and it could be the neighbor boy you could be a neighbor it could be your your even could be an aunt or an uncle it could be someone just steps in and go and i think even that that connection from a man to a man i think specifically and even but if you have no one is a woman too but it goes that connection i think can can be the lifeline that saves a kid that actually goes you know someone cares about me and I got someone I can look up to and someone will talk to me and someone cares about cares about me you know what else Sean it's interesting because you know I went I was

criticized by the left this week because I said there's and by the way first of all doctor I want to say I think you're hitting the nail on the head. There is something with young men and there is something about the way we are denigrating men, masculinity, young men, and pushing them down in order to push this agenda, pushing girls up instead of trying to lift both up and realizing that they're, you know, complimentary, that there's no no reason I think you're hitting it on the head. There's another aspect that goes outside of your field of your profession. And I still want to bring it up. I brought it up this this week on television, I got some pushback. But there is something faith, Christianity, Judaism, whatever your faith is, can give people hope and a society that is

based on, on, you know, that has a moral compass that has very specific things that we know are right and wrong. I think, you know, those guardrails, I mean, you talked about this young man doing things and really they were cries for help. He wanted someone to step in and say, that's wrong. Let's talk about why you're doing that. Let's get to the root of that. That never happened to him. committing those crimes, it actually makes them think that it creates this nihilism, this idea that nothing matters. I just think that, you know, we've taken God out of our society. We've taken morals and fatherhood and marriage and family units, and we've taken all of these things out. And then we go, well, where did this kid come from? Well, he is a product of this culture. He is a product of our society on so many levels, the drug addiction, the breakdown of his family, you know, the isolation, the social media and the lack of connection, the lack of social skills that so many young people have. So many of them can't even speak on a phone call

with proper etiquette because they've never been on a phone call with proper etiquette because they've never been on a phone call. They only text people. They don't interact with people very much. And it's not just this kid who was troubled, lots of kids. So I just think there's so much there, but I think it's really helpful, doctor, that you actually identified something that we can change, which is how we speak about men in our society, how we treat them, how we value them. I think it's powerful. We're getting to the end of our podcast, but I want to give you another opportunity, you know, to drive, drive your message home and talk a little bit about that book that you, you wrote about men basically checking out. Um, well, my book is Men on Strike.

It's why men are boycotting marriage, fatherhood, and the American dream and why it matters. And then I have another book, which you can get for free. It is called Discard Horror, Understanding and Identifying Kids Who Kill. It's an old book. I wrote it in the 90s, but people are welcome to go. I have a website. It's actually www.violentkids.com for that one.

It's a very old website from the nineties, but on that website, you can actually go, you can download the book for free, the scarred heart, and you can read it and you can, it will give you a little bit more understanding of in the mindset. It's basically just paragraphs from the actual kids themselves. So if you want to get in the mind of some of these kids, like what is happening? What are they thinking? It's just a book talking about just from the kid's perspective, just asking kids like why they feel this way, what's happening. And then

you can read that free online. Just quickly, I did want to say, I do agree with your analysis about the moral compass. And I think without, I think that people did look to religion or feel that with religion, people felt like there were some consequences. And I do think now people feel that there aren't whether, you know, I'm not saying, you know, there are many people who don't have religion in their lives. And I'm a libertarian. It it's, you know, everybody has the right to believe what they want, but you do have to understand the consequences of that, which are that more and more people feel there is no moral compass, more and more people feel that, you know, they're not going to burn in hell, nothing's going to happen. Um, and I think that that definitely gives people a sense of no community, no, no other way out than to act in a manner that,

you know, we act like there is no right and wrong, but there is. And I think that, you know, if we can drive that home, you know, if you are a parent, I think setting limits and helping your kid understand that, yes, there is right and wrong. And doctor, what would you say to a parent right now? Who's listening to this podcast, who says, I'm seeing some signs, my kid is cutting or my kid is isolated or my kid is, you know, um, you know, struggling in some way, or I know, uh, I see that neighbor kid and he looks like he's on the wrong path or my friend's son. What, what is, what is something that somebody who's already feeling that right now, what should they do? Well, I mean, obviously I'm going to tell you the first thing that I would do, especially

for your own kid would be to, if you can get them to a mental health professional, that's easier said than done. People are booked up. These facilities are overrun, especially with the pandemic and people trying to get in. But I would definitely I would ask around I would ask different friends who have had success with their own kid sometimes people will know a psychologist or psychiatrist or a good therapist there are many social workers people who deal with this type of issue that you could take the child to even through the state the state has you know you're on the state program sometimes they has, you know, you're on the state program, sometimes they'll have, you know, a mental health facility that you could take the child to. If you don't have anything, I think the thing is, don't be afraid to talk to a kid. I think people are terrified. People are terrified if I mentioned suicide. And one last thing I do want to say before we quit is these acts are acts of homicide, yes, but first they're usually, in a good percentage of the time, an act of

suicide. And we saw that in this case, because basically the kid goes out by suicide by cop. They know they're going to get killed in general. This kid pretty much, I think, knew that they were going to be taken out and they were prepared. But I would say way prior to this, don't be afraid, ask specific questions. People think, oh, if I I talk about suicide a kid will do it no they're more likely you know if you ask a specific question like hey you know I notice you're cutting yourself what's going on um I notice you seem down is something going on you know try to don't don't be afraid to maybe ask and open the conversation. And if the kid doesn't want to talk, talk later, but, um, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to, to reach out a little bit and don't be afraid to certainly with your own children to get them help if they need it. Um, it's a good start. And like

I said, there are just so many parts of this puzzle. And I think that if we could put them together, I think we could, we could lessen what's happening today. Oh, your voice is so needed today. I can't tell you. I think all week we've been hearing people on television, trying to figure out people trying to, you know, people talking to one another neighbors, just trying to wrap our heads around this. And there is something, there is something that is infecting our culture. And I think you've hit on many of them. And I hope that I know you're in semi retirement, but I hope that more people are calling on you during this time that maybe we could turn this into like that critical juncture, that critical moment where

we make that turnaround, where we stop talking about the politics around this and start getting to the really tough root issues of it, which is cultural, which is family oriented, faith oriented, and really about human connection. I agree. And thank you all so much for the opportunity to say all of this and have the time to do it. So grateful for you to join us. And again, provide a little bit of common sense as an insight as we try to navigate through this difficult time.

Wow, what an incredible conversation with Dr. Smith, Sean. You know, I think so insightful. And again, to have someone so smart, we've studied this issue so long. And again, the kids that are committing these crimes, she's looked at. And they come back and say, hey, everybody, something's going on with what we're doing with boys. Hello, of course, we've changed the way we treat boys in society. Again, they're all, as she mentioned, they're all privileged. They're all toxic. Well, you start to treat them like that. And you start to get results that maybe aren't the best. And so again, it's not that

you want to have a male centric or a female centric society. We can all live in harmony. God made men and God made women, and we work really well together, but we're different no matter what the left says. Men and women are very different and we should respect that, love that, celebrate that. And that means celebrating young boys and who they are. And again, I think that's really important. And also I do think, again, there's a whole mental illness side of this that you need professionals to deal with. But I do think maybe before kids get to that phase, to that state, we can step in.

If you can, if you have a neighbor kid, you know, like, listen, maybe he's a little weird. Maybe he, you know, he does some odd things, you know, but no one reaches out to them. No one takes the initiative to go, Hey, you know, I'm going to things, you know, but no one reaches out to them. No one takes the initiative to go, Hey, you know, I'm going to be that, that, that. I'm going to be that kid's friend. I mean, he worked at Wendy and he, you know, quit and it seemed like no one cared. They asked his manager about him. They said he, he hardly talked. How many people at Wendy's tried to befriend this kid? I mean, I'm not trying to justify any of it. I'm just saying, you know,

some of it is just all of us having to you know we're all in our phone we're all in our social media we're all have these kind of fake relationships and you see that he had a lot of these fake relationships these very superficial relationships with people online people he would do gaming with i mean we have to get out of this you know faux world and into a real, you know, interpersonal connection. I also want to talk about what she said, you know, a lot of this patriarchy talk that we hear is coming out of the university system, out of these women's studies departments. What kind of damage, not just in terms of, you know, these not very common, you know, too common for our good in our society, but they're still not very common that you see these kinds of mass shootings of young men.

But the impact of denigrating men, calling it the patriarchy, the impact just on family formation. I mean, there aren't men, as she wrote in her very incredible book, a lot of men go, you know what? I'm out. I'm not going to get married. I'm not going to, you know, lead this family. I'm not going to. I'm going to make a baby and leave.

And then there's this spiraling effect of what happens afterwards. You get lots of, Shawna, I've talked, you know, often about how many grown adults we know who were raised without their father in the home, and they're still so angry and so hurt about that. So these have massive implications and repercussions for our culture when we denigrate men, when we don't encourage them to rise up and lead their lives and lead their family and lead their children. Well, this is, and this isn't men versus women, because if you're a woman, you would say, well, one, do I want to be the one that is the go-getter, the one that has the job, but also the one that bears the children, that gives birth to the children. No help.

And I have a, and I have a loser kind of husband who won't help me take care of the kids so you do you're going to do everything if you don't have an equal partner in this you want both sexes to be strong and smart and contributing to the family that's right and if one if one side doesn't do it but the male it falls all on the on the woman and it's so hard as a culture to make these men not want to step up? And as she said, they're checking out. They're basically saying, if I do this, I'm not valued. I mean, it's so deep. And you and I saw it, Sean.

I'm so glad you brought up that example. The first time we thought a first child to go through, you know, a junior high. We've been doing this a long time with all of our kids. First one to go through a junior high graduation. And we stood there in the back and we went, there's 20 kids being, you know, honored for their high academic achievement. And 19 of them were girls. And one was a boy.

And ever since that moment, I mean, that was a long time ago. You and I keep noticing these moments it's like girl power and stem for girls if that was a one-off i get it that's happening all over and when does someone ever go hey this is a problem why what are we doing that would give us 19 girls to one boy because if the happened, it was 19 boys and one girl, everyone would lose their mind. And maybe at one point it was like that, Sean. And it probably was.

And you want to get to a point of balance to go, hey, we want to make sure we have a chance to lift girls up and make sure if we're teaching in a way that doesn't speak to girls, we need to change the way we're doing it so we are reaching girls, which was a good thing. But what we've done is we've said, we are reaching girls and which was a good thing but what we've done is we've said we are now going to just exclude boys and now just teach to girls and the flip has happened um where we were these we're leaving these boys behind and again this was this was intentional but this was a conscious societal scholastic decision that was made to make this change and it happened over a long time it could

have been well intentioned we want to lift up girls but the but part of it too sean is a lot of this gender crap that we're getting i agree because boys and girls are different just as you brought up with the doctor during the podcast they learn differently um Girls, you know, learn a little bit more passively. Boys need to be engaged in debate. And and by the way, I was I like to be engaged in debate. So not everyone's the same and there's the mix. But if you're if you're if you refuse to teach the way boys are engaged and and excited about learning and you only teach to girls you miss boys by the way you miss a lot of girls you like to who also like to learn the way boys learn we have to rethink this whole thing and a lot of this gender bender stuff that's going on right now

is warping the way we're forming and raising children, especially in the, in the leftists destroy everything. And they're destroying young men with their, with their brilliant ideas to, to, they want to remake everything. We're going to remake school. You know, reimagine families,

reimagine malehood. Reimagine. They're reimagining has absolutely destroyed. Do you feel like this is progress, Sean? I don't, I look at what happened this week. That's not progress. It is. It is.

It is. This is devastating to society. And I want to make sure, I don't know that if the manager at the, at the Wendy's where Ramos worked would have saved him. I don't know that. I'm not saying that, but what I know, I, but I, what I wanted to say was that if we want to help this culture if you want to help your society and i look at myself to go if i have a neighbor which i don't have a troubled neighbor boy would i would i have the time in my life to i've got a lot of kids and i gotta you know i've got a lot of wife i'm i've got a lot

to handle would i take the time to do it and at first first blush, I'd be like, I'm too busy. I can't. I mean, if I'm really honest with you, that'd be hard for me. But I'm going to rethink. I've talked to you about wanting to foster and you don't have the bandwidth to foster. I do think that whether it was another man in someone's life, they might not be a future shooter, but that relationship with a healthy man, again, the neighbor, the uncle, the boss at work can actually lead them to a much better place in their lives and a much more productive member of society. That's the first point I want to make. when you're in such a dark place. If you've been given one seed in your life,

one thing in your life that you can rely on, you can be saved. And if you have any kind of relationship with God, if you know God, if you know about Jesus, if you know anything about the Bible, this is a relationship that can save you, that can maybe be able to pull you back. And here he didn't have, I don't think he had many males in his life. We're going to find that out.

That's what I'm suspecting from this story. Males in his life. He had his grandma, but he didn't know God either, I don't think. but he didn't know God either, I don't think. And that might have been a relationship with Jesus who went through a lot of horrific things himself, right? He was shunned. He was excluded. Mocked, belittled.

He went through everything that Ramos would have probably felt himself. And Ramos would have maybe had someone to go, there's someone who went through what I went through or what I'm going through. That can save people. That can bring people back. And so, again, I think this is a holistic conversation about this problem.

But saying take away gums from people doesn't fix the problem that Dr. Smith is talking about. No, it sure doesn't. Dr. Smith is talking about something way deeper. It's so deep. I'll tell you what, if people feel this way, they'll make a Molotov cocktail. They'll use a car. They'll get a machete.

They'll get a knife. You've seen those scenarios happen. If people are demented, they'll do demented things um and so people are hurt and angry and abandoned and again easy answers let's let's go deep and go what have we changed why is this happening what do we have to do to fix it yeah i just don't want this to happen in vain i really know, and first of all, I, I, I suspect in Uvalde, Sean, that this weekend, the churches are going to be full. Many, this is a, you know, over, you know, 80, 90% Hispanic community. A lot of rosaries are going to be, people are going to be, you know, coming back to, to faith. And maybe this might be a moment where more than you've all

day, maybe the whole country is starting to ask these questions. Maybe this is that low point where we can finally go, okay, these political arguments aren't enough. We're going to have to dig deep and we're going to have to look at what we're doing as a culture with social media, with isolation, with lack of human connection, with broken families, with drug abuse, all of these things, maybe finally we're going to get a little deeper. I think Dr. Smith did an amazing job of at least getting to the root of some of it and pointing us in a right direction and and that's that's the only hope that i have um it's just horrific what happened i just can't imagine i laid in bed the day after and the morning after and i was like i couldn't get out of this bed if

i was one of those parents or or grandparents or aunts or uncles this happened to these little children you know some of them sean had just there were pictures that day of them with their parents because they had a little award ceremony. And a few of them had made the honor roll in their school and had gotten, you know, their mom had posted on Facebook, you know, that they had gotten this award. Went home and then coming back to pick them up and found out this had happened um it is just one of the you know border patrol who had to come to the scene uh the daughter was a victim in the classroom it is just unspeakable stuff and yes evil exists but it talking to the doctor i have to believe that somewhere, somewhere, somewhere we failed this young man and we're failing young men all across this country. And you know, you were just down in

Ubalde last week and you were talking about the border. It's a good community, good people, hardworking people, people of faith. By the way, Sean, already overwhelmed with the problem with the open border 60 miles away. They have a child minor detention center in their town. So people were passing through Uvalde on their way to the rest of the country. And this town was already overwhelmed from a law enforcement point of view, and already suffering, and so grateful, by the way, that Fox was there trying to tell their story. I interviewed the mayor. Bill Mellugian has been down there.

They were so grateful to have some attention. Right now, there's a lot of press in Uvalde. There's a lot of media in Uvalde because there's a gun issue, and the media is very interested in the gun issue. In a couple weeks, they'll all leave and Uvalde will be left grieving still with what just happened, but also still dealing with the border situation

which is straining their social services, straining their hospitals. This is a sign of so much that has gone wrong in our country. This is a human of so much that has gone wrong in our country. This is a human conversation we're having, but just for a second, because there's been a lot of conversation about guns and gun control. When you spoke to the mayor of Uvalde, I think, yes, you say this on TV, or you told me over a cup of coffee, he said, if you let your kids outside to play they don't go by themselves

you go out with them and if you go out everybody's got a gun he said he said everyone in uvalde he said most everybody packed once everybody is has a gun and if they that's the kind of society they didn't used to be like that and and when they would let their kids out to play you know they generally would be with their kids and and and and and a lot of them having you know a a firearm with them because there were so many you know cartels and and just people they don't know coming coming through their ranches coming through their backyards at their homes um there's a lot of bailouts in that community you know um high-speed chases that end up killing people who happen to be in the way. But this community was already very strained. So sad that this happened. But all I can say again, Sean, is I just pray, I pray, I pray that some good will come out of this, that our country will have a spiritual revival,

that we will have conversations about how we're treating young men and how we're valuing them and what we're doing to uplift them and especially what we're doing to reach out to those who are falling through the cracks you know our son jack he called his siblings to say i just want you all to hug each other for me because i mean he just felt so horrible he felt so horrible about what had happened and it made and it makes all of us think that way. We need to hug each other. We need to love each other. We need to realize that the answers are not going to come from Washington. They're not going to come from the White House.

They're not going to come from the House floor. They're going to come from our family. That's true. And our community. Listen, this has been a harder kitchen table conversation than a lot of them. In fact, you have to have those tough conversations at the kitchen table. That we had it. So I want to thank you all for joining us at the kitchen table.

All right. Well, thank you. I want to thank Dr. Smith again for joining us. What great insight she had. And if you've enjoyed the conversation, I know we did. We learned a lot. Definitely let us know. Subscribe, rate, and review this podcast at foxnewspodcast.com

or wherever you download podcasts. We hope to see you around the kitchen table next week. By the way, we're going to have a happier subject. We're going to break down This Is Us for next week. Are we? We're going to break it down because you and I love This Is Us. By the way, the finale was this week. We're not finished yet.

We're not finished yet. We're not finished yet. Here's what we do. We're going to finish it. We tease episodes that we're going to do that we don't do, though. So we're going to do this is us. Even if we have another topic, it is. We're going to break down this. We love family.

That's been an awesome family show. We love it. I'm a crier. We're going to have to finish. We have like what, like two or three more episodes left before the finale. The rest of us might finish the finale. We're going to finish it up and we're going to break it down because I think it's an awesome show

and we're going to... Next week. Next week, join us for that. Bye, everybody. From the Fox News Podcast Network. I'm Janice Dean, Fox News Senior Meteorologist. Be sure to subscribe to the Janice Dean Podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And don't forget to spread the sunshine.