From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - The Threat Of Russia: A Conversation From Both Sides

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

This week, Sean and Rachel bring Representative Victoria Spartz (R-IN) and Senate candidate JD Vance to the Kitchen Table to discuss the varying angles of the Russian-Ukrainian conflict. Rep. Spartz shares her perspective as a Ukrainian immigrant and describes what she thinks the U.S. should do regarding the looming threat of an attack from Russia. Alternatively, JD shares why he believes the State Department is not properly equipped to be making decisions on U.S. involvement, and that any actions made need to be thoroughly thought out.  Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

BetMGM, authorized gaming partner of the NBA, has your back all season long. From tip-off to the final buzzer, you're always taken care of with a sportsbook born in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with BetMGM. And no matter your team, your favorite player, or your style, there's something every NBA fan will love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your basketball home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with BetMGM, a sportsbook worth a slam dunk and authorized gaming partner of the NBA.

BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey everybody, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm your host, Sean Duffy, along with my co-host for the podcast, but also my partner in life,

Rachel Campos Duffy. Thank you, Sean. It's so great to be back at our kitchen table for our podcast. And today we're going to be discussing something that's been in the news. A lot of us don't know all the ins and outs of it, and that's Ukraine. That's right. You know, it looks like we, you know, I get worried every time I wake up, I might, we might be in a war with you, with the Russians here. And a lot of us just don't know what side we fall on. I mean, there's this part about us taking leadership. But then I'm also worried that I don't trust our leaders. And I don't know we go. What's the best role for America, which is why we want to bring in two people that have maybe two different kinds of perspectives on this issue. And later in the show, you're going to hear from J.D. Vance.

So stick around for that because he's really got some interesting points to make, very different from our first guest. So you guys know who J.D. Vance is. He wrote Hillbilly Elegy. He's running for the Senate. He's very America first and is very skeptical about the Biden administration's position and willingness and aggressiveness, really, in terms of dealing with this situation in Ukraine and the Russians. Really insightful conversation. Yeah, it's a very insightful conversation. It goes in a lot of different directions.

But first, we're going to speak with Congresswoman Sparks. And she's a congresswoman from Indiana. She immigrated to the United States in 2000. She was on a train and she met her husband, an American, and she ended up getting married and moving to the United States, becoming a U.S. citizen. She worked her way up from being a bank teller to a CPA to a finance executive. She started her own business, ended up in the state house in Indiana, and now is the first Ukrainian American congressperson in the U.S. Congress. So really interesting perspective. She grew up behind the Iron Curtain, Sean. She did, and now she's a U.S. Congresswoman and has a great perspective, obviously, on Ukraine. That's where she's from. So let's welcome to the kitchen table, Congresswoman Victoria Sparks. Congresswoman, welcome. Thank you for having me.

So we're so excited to have you. No better guest on this topic than you. Why don't you just first start by laying out the groundwork for us here? How do you see this conflict? How did it develop, Victoria? What's the flavor in Ukraine and opinions of Russia and the aggression? Just give us a couple of minutes on that. Thank you for having me. I have probably some unique perspective because I actually was born in Soviet Union on the border with Russia and Belarus. So I grew up in Chernihiv region, actually Chernihiv Prince during Kiev and Rus, he was the one who started Moscow because there was a lot of attacks from Mongols from the east and they wanted to move the capital a little bit more north. So there is a lot of history in that area.

So if you look at this, you know, why, you know, and for me to tell you the truth, it's unfortunate what's happening in Europe. And when Soviet Union fell apart, it was such opportunity for democracy, for deliberation and debate. And I grew up in the 90s when I went to college there. We had a debate of ideas and ideals and a very democratic movement. And it's sad for me to see how much downhill it went, especially in Russia since that time. But if you think of the whole crisis that's happening there,

it's really not a territory crisis. President Putin has a ton of territory to worry himself. He has China taking over Siberia. He has a lot of problems there. So I think it's really his sphere of influence and his big ego, because unfortunately, he cannot get over that Soviet Union fell apart. Ukraine, when I left, the area that I grew up was, you know, very open minded. Some people still was pro Soviet Union. Some people wanted socialism. Some wanted democracy. But I was surprised to see, especially in the last seven years, how people change and how professional they became.

So they don't want a socialist communist. They want to go to Europe. They want to, you know, why do you think that happened? And I think that, you know, I think it happened gradually, but I'll be honest with you since Ukraine, you know, it's corrupt government, bad economy, much more Ukrainians closer to Europe had to do different jobs in Europe. They've seen democracy a little bit more. Russians are a little bit deeper in Siberia. They not go as much and interact with Western Europe. So the conflict started when Ukraine wanted to really go in the EU, you know, and President

Putin really, it bothered him. And I don't know, I mean, at some point, even Russia discussed they wanted to be more democratic, but it just went downhill for a lot of different reasons. And now there are some, you know, China has their own interests, including in Ukraine. Ukraine has a lot of rare earth minerals and Ukraine recently blocked China from buying strategic assets. assets. They also just now bought some military plant with some technologies that Ukraine now not agreeing to sell it. So I think they're also playing behind the scenes. They always do. They have economic interests. So I think, you know, they kind of team up in some way, one for economic interests, you know, another one for religious, maybe ego you know i don't know it's hard to say but it's unfortunate and i think that the problem they have you know even though they use

a lot of and i haven't really watched russian tv you know but recently i turned on russian tv it's really just so much anti-american propaganda it's worse't during Soviet Union time. I was shocked. So they tried to agitate the public. But I think Ukrainians are very determined now. They have, you know, a lot of young people die. If you think about it, Ukraine been independent for 30 years, right? I grew up, you know, when it still was Soviet Union, a lot of these young kids, they've never known, you know, any country, just Ukraine. Now, thousands of them died. Now their parents, you know, I mean, seen what's happening.

So we, I mean, the region I grew up in is very anti-Russian now. The people, actually Russian born people who live in that area. I mean, their kids are dying. Their kids have to fight a war. I think it will have significant implication now between relationship between Russia and Ukraine. And I think it will be very negative. There is a lot of bad blood out there now. So Victoria, as we kind of set the stage, we have tens of thousands of Russian troops at the Ukrainian border. We have, you know nato you know making um some plays um with regard to the the is some would say the imminent attack from russia we have ukraine seeking you know weapons and armaments uh from

nato from the u.s i know poland and the uk are are giving arms um but there's a debate in the u.s what role should we have as a member of NATO and as an independent country? Some people say we should send troops. Ukraine's not part of NATO. They're not part of NATO, right? But we should send troops in. We shouldn't send any troops in. We should just sell arms or give arms so the Ukrainians can defend themselves against a Russian attack. What should the U.S. do in regard to this looming threat of an attack from Russia and from Putin? Well, first, you know, it's a challenge for us in some way. You know, Europe has been reluctant to deal with their problems. But unfortunately, you know,

Europe does need our leadership. And without our leadership, it creates a lot of instability. our leadership. And without our leadership, it creates a lot of instability. And, you know, we can say that we can do nothing and, you know, and do what, you know, UK did in 1938, by giving part of Czech Republic to Germany, well, ended up not very well and ended up coming, you know, hunt all of us, and we had to send a lot of kids to die, unfortunately, and no one wants to do it. So we need to work to deescalate situation and really have a serious conversation with Russia on diplomatic front. But unfortunately, you know, our president's policy were very weak, domestically caused a lot of problems, and internationally, our failed withdrawal from Afghanistan debacle, where we abandoned US

citizens, and we abandoned NATO allies. That wasn't good. Putin was watching that. Our terrible, stupid energy policies where now, you know, countries are dependent, you know, on countries like Russia and they're making a lot of money, put a lot of dependency. So I think he is using the weaknesses and see internal instability. So he's aggressiveors will try to take advantage. We have different commitments. We don't have a commitment to guarantee any security to Ukraine. We do have some commitment on the Budapest memorandum,

where Ukraine was the third largest nuclear country in the world after the United States and Russia, and then the Soviet Union fell apart. And on the return of you know, of giving up nuclear weapons, we promised, you know, assurances UK, Russia and us give assurances of their security and sovereignty, right? So I think it causes us a problem, because next time we want to unipolarize other country, you know, so it poses a problem. So then we have to discuss what we're going to do. But we don't have a necessity.

They don't ask, and I don't think anyone would even argue that we would need to send troops to Ukraine. That is not something that's ever discussed on any side. It's needed. With the NATO allies, it's a little bit different. Whether we like it or not, if we

decide that NATO is not the right organization, we can rethink about it. But at this point, we have commitment under Article 5. And when President Putin checked about pre-1997 spheres of influence as NATO, that's affected a lot of allies like Baltic and Poland. So it's a different commitment. So I think President Biden will be very slow on responding, but I think he now understands that he put in a situation where he just become reacting, and he instead of being more proactive. I think that's a really good point, though. And I don't think a lot of Americans understand this, the point that's a really good point, though. And I don't think a lot of Americans understand this, the point that Ukraine is not part of NATO, but they were a

huge nuclear power after the fall of the Soviet Union. There was a lot of nuclear weapons there. And we wanted them out of Ukraine into the Soviet Union. And to have Ukraine give up their weapons, we made assurances to Ukraine. So we do have some responsibility to your point. And I guess maybe what I hear you saying is we shouldn't send any U.S. troops, but we should send arms so the Ukrainians can develop them, can defend themselves, number one. But you make another really interesting point as well. This isn't in our backyard.

Why? I mean, I get that Putin's a threat. I know he's a bully. And I know bad things can happen when you show weakness and you appease. But this isn't Europe's backyard. Why doesn't France and Germany and other European countries care more about Ukraine in their backyard than we should here in the U.S.? I have similar frustrations that you have. And honestly, especially with Germany, I'll be honest with you that Germany needs to have much stronger stance. Unfortunately, they put themselves in Russian dependency, eliminated coal industry and nuclear industry powers, too. and Russian dependency, eliminated coal industry and nuclear industry powers too.

So that's what caused them now a lot of problems, and they have huge dependency on Russian gas. But I think they also need to understand that they have to be able to be united if Russia makes some moves to be part of the sanctions to Russia, if Russia is going to pursue further, because it destabilizes the whole world. And the whole world is watching, too. The issue goes beyond Ukraine in this situation. And also, you know, it's not like when we, you know, had at the time of Cuba crisis where, you know, the range of rackets matter and they came to Cuba. The wars are very different now. We do need to have

some friends, and Russia can attack and be attacking, including us, from far away. So just saying that they're not going to be coming after us, and China is not coming after us, it's just very naive and not wise. But I think the first we need to do, try to be able to have a negotiation with Russia, because I think we're the only country that Putin will be willing to sit at the table. But we need to be very clear that we are going to prefer to de-escalate it through diplomacy. But if he's pushing us in this situation and it's going to be attacking allies, we have no other choice. I think it's bad for Russia, what he's doing. He will weaken his country.

And I think he needs to be serious if he really cares about his country, his people, to sit down at the table and have a serious conversation. The faster money and data move, the further your business can go to a seamless digital future for Canadians. Let's go faster forward together. In life, interact. So I want to talk a little bit about the energy policies. I think it's really important. I mean, we've basically, by allowing Germany to have this dependency on Russian gas and oil and other people in Europe, but especially Germany, I think we've weakened the West. We've divided ourselves. We're not a united front

the way we can in dealing with Russia. But there's another part of this that really concerns me. And as an American, I look at the foreign enemy that I'm most concerned about, and that's China, Congresswoman. And I feel like this situation with Ukraine, and again, I don't have the background or the history you have, but what I do see is that it's causing Putin and China to get closer together. And I wonder whether that's a good idea in the long term for America and if we would be better off not doing something that has that result so that we could better triangulate them. Well, let's just not be naive. China and Putin has been close together for a while. There are a lot of interests China has in buying assets.

You know, I have actually, I talked to someone in Ukraine. They're actually originally from Russia. Their military, you know, her husband was in the military in the Soviet Union. They're from Far East. And they say there are almost no Russians left there, mostly Chinese. Russians are afraid to get out of their houses. So China has been advancing their interests a lot. They have a they were against Russian weapons. So they didn't want to be our friends. And they decided to align with a communist country. And it's unfortunate that they did. But it's not like, you know, they're doing something, they're trying to go with us.

And, you know, and now somehow we're going to push. They're already there. They're already there. China has an enormous amount of economic control and interest in Russia and a lot of other countries. Ukraine pushed back, maybe because they don't want it, maybe because they want to appease the West. I'm not sure, but they recently pushed back. So China really has some interest in this conflict too, but they were trying to act like they don't and they're a peaceful country. But if you see on the UN Security Council, there were only two countries that blocked the debate, Russia and China.

It's not like China stayed neutral. They didn't stay neutral. So it's not going to, they already pushed together. They have their own, you know, competition. But I haven't seen any desire of Russian president to move away from that to the West. And if he has a serious device, I think we should be open to have that conversation. But I haven't seen any signs of it. But you talk about the conversation with with the American administration, with Biden and with Putin. It sounds like they have been talking. And the real concern that Putin has is he doesn't want Ukraine to be part of NATO. And that's a fine position for him to take.

But it's not like he's a good guy, right? I mean, he's attacked Georgia, what was that, 14, 15 years ago, he attacked the country of Georgia. With Ukraine, he attacked and took Crimea. So it's not like he's just poor old Putin sitting in the corner being abused by the world. He's actually an aggressor. And it sounds like we're not even having a conversation right now about Ukraine becoming a member of NATO. So this is a created crisis that Putin has brought to the world stage when, again, we're not having a conversation right now in the immediate terms of bringing Ukraine into the United Nations. That's one point I want to ask you about. Another one is, I do think the rest of the world, and this is a point that you

earlier made, watches how our administration operates. They saw the ridiculous withdrawal from Afghanistan and how we left our allies stranded and Americans stranded. It shows weakness and how we behave in one corner of the world lets other enemies potentially read that and look at how they can use that as leverage. Russia is one of them, but also China and Taiwan is another place that really matters. And that's why this this conflict, maybe our involvement is being debated. But making sure we get through it correctly is important for peace because we need to be perceived and have to be strong to make sure we don't have more aggression from from Russia and more aggression from from China. Well, I think, you know, I mean, in discussion, Ukraine,

you know, it's a long shot, okay? And who knows what is going to be in the future. But at the current, you know, situation, it's really not about NATO. You know, Russia doesn't like that Ukrainians are going to be, you know, more democratic because then Russians are going to think, oh, and we live in the dictatorship.

It just creates a big example, bad example for him. democratic, because then Russians are going to think, oh, and we live in the dictatorship. It just creates a big example, bad example for him. And internally, you know, because he moved country into dictatorship, you know, Ukrainians saw the West, they want to be free. They don't want communist socialists. They're tired of it. So they're willing to die for it and literally dying for freedoms. And, and that is not that easy to do. Not that many people are willing to do it, but they've been under suppression being between East and West for so much. So I think they as Cossacks,

as always, they were suppressed by Stalin and tried to kill a ton of them through sort of famines and wars. I mean, if you think about it, there is four times more per capita Ukrainians died in World War II than Russians. You know, so I mean, if you think about it, there is four times more per capita Ukrainians died in World War II than Russians. You know, so I mean, almost the whole male population of Ukraine were killed. I mean, I all had my great grandfathers killed, including, you know, my great grandmothers and everything, because they were supporting Jewish people and partisan movements.

So we had Ukrainians really suffered much higher percentage-wise from World War II than even Russia. So they're just tired of that. So I think people have much more freedom and that will, and I think it's a danger for Russia. So I think this is, you know, bad example for him. But I think it's also important for us to show that, you know, we, we're leading the world and, you know, and Europe needs us. I mean, unfortunately, a lot of countries don't value that. And I think we, what I like with President Trump, did he put pressure? I mean, we have UK, which is a great ally, you know, but some other allies are very wishy-washy. And I like that he pushed on them and said,

you know what, you need to pay your dues. We have responsibility. You have much more imminent dangers than we do from any aggression, and you need to step up. I think it was good to push them to do that. And I think President Biden, being what he's been doing in Afghanistan particularly, including with NATO allies, pretty much abandoned and not listened. It didn't help us. But we have to deal with where we are in the short term and then figure out how we can have a better policy long term. But we do need to try to deescalate the situation. We need to give President Putin out because it's bad for his country, too. I mean, he needs to understand it. If you were advising the Biden administration, you're a Republican congresswoman,

obviously. But let's say that Joe Biden called you today and said, Congresswoman, you have, you know, keen insight on this issue. Tell me the three things I should do right now. Well, I mean, I don't think I'm going to get that call. I know you're not. I've been very critical. And he put himself into a situation, position of weakness, because, you know, when you play your cards and if you, I mean, just even with Nordstrom 2, whatever he felt about it, just to lift the sanctions without getting anything in return, it's a very bad negotiation. You know, everything he does is just just so not smart what he done. Now he's put in a situation where he has to figure out what to do. The good thing for him, Russian aggression really united much more United Nations and EU.

I was surprised to see when we went to Brussels and met with EU parliament representatives where you even have countries like Finland and Sweden now like getting nervous. And so it did unite you much more. I think it's also provided now that Europeans like, oh, we really need United States. We are in trouble so i think that's kind of you know but i think he needs to you know now deal with situation we need to have some deterrence and develop some you know package of sanctions if if president putin decides to do what he's really pretty close of doing then he needs to understand that we're serious and it's going to be a pain. It's going to be painful for him. He cannot just make a deal with China to back him up

because it's going to hurt him, his people, his economy, and especially people around him, these oligarchs that live in a great life right now, because it's really, you know, they're suppressing people and be very wealthy on top. We need to unite, you know, they're suppressing people and be very wealthy on top. We need to unite, you know, European allies, make sure the sanctions are meaningful. And, you know, because that's a deterrence, you know, that's something that needs to happen. Then we need to reassure our NATO members that we are actually going to support them, that we are there for them. And I think it's important that we went actually going to support them, that we are there for them. And I think it's important that we went there on a bipartisan basis and reassure them,

if we have commitment, we're going to follow it. If we decide right away we want some different structure, we can do different structure. But at this point, we are committed to our allies in NATO under Article 5, and we are not wishing to wash the country. We need to figure out what we can do with Ukraine, but also we also need to try to have a serious conversation and give a chance to President Putin to sit at the table and say, if you are serious about that, there is no threat to his security.

This is not like I was just saying, like, that you need to have Cuban missiles close to to United States to be able to reach. There is no threat to his security. So if he's serious and he wants to have a conversation that we should have to try to deescalate through diplomatic means. And I think that should be first choice given to him and then go down the list. All right. Well, I think Germany has a big part to play in this. It's as long as they're dependent on Russian gas and Well, I think Germany has a big part to play in this. As long as they're dependent on Russian gas and oil, I think it's going to be really hard to get the right outcome. But I appreciate you spending some time with us here at our kitchen table talking about these issues. I know Americans all over the country are wondering what we should do. I think your opinion is very valuable. all over the country are wondering what we should do. I think your opinion is very valuable,

considering how close we are. One thing I wanted to add, because it's really strategic energy security. And if we want to be proactive, we need to be very smart. Under President Trump, Germany was pushed to build LNG terminals in Germany. As soon as President Biden came in power, they pulled back. Now they say

it's a problem for them. Well, you know, so we need to look in the short term how we can help with energy security, but we need to have a long-term view of our energy policy and have actually policies, not politics. Because when we have unrealistic utopian energy ideas, no, they're not going to be accomplished in the short term. It's not just hurts our people and our economy. It's also hurts the peace and stability around the world. And then we have to go fight wars and no one wants to do it. So we have to think about energy security long term. But thank you for having me. And Congresswoman, I think that is a fantastic point, because if Germany or Europe can't rely on exports of American LNG, natural gas, liquefied, which I voted, I was proud to vote for that and

work on that as well and get it out of the House. One more thing, when I met with German ambassador, they point out, now we're importing more oil than ever from Russia too. So that's kind of a joke too. Well, but if Germany is like, Russia is a better partner and a more secure energy source than America, that is a problem when we're going to build the Keystone Pipeline under Trump

and then it's in a stroke of a pen taken away. People can't rely because of your point. It's not long-term energy policy. It is short-term politics. Really good point. And listen, thank you for joining us. Thanks for your insight. And thanks for all the great work you do. Thank you. Thank you for the Congress bringing a different perspective and someone who knows what the old Soviet Union was like because you were raised there. So great to have you fighting on the team to make sure we have this beacon of freedom alive and well, and we don't turn into this socialist nightmare, which so many liberals want us to be. So again, thank you for your time and thank you for your voice. Thank you, Congresswoman. An honor to have you on the show.

Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you so much, Congresswoman Sparks, for joining us at the kitchen table. Now we're going to hear the other side of the argument right after this. Light up Black Friday with Freedom Mobile and get 50 gigs to use in Canada, the U.S. and Mexico after this. All right. So you just heard from the congresswoman from Indiana. She had a really interesting perspective. Definitely thinks that we should be talking about our energy policy, which is exacerbating the situation. And now we're going to bring in J.D. Vance. You might know him from Hillbilly Elegy.

I know that's how I got to know him. I love that book. And I still need to watch the movie, Sean. We need to watch that. We need to do that. We're going to do that. But J.D. is from Middleton, Ohio. He's running for Senate right now in Ohio. He grew up,

if you read the book, you know he had a pretty tough childhood, but came out of it great, ended up becoming a Marine in the Iraq War, came back and became a Yale man. A Yale man. A Yale chap. But now he's returned to Ohio. He's married. He's got a couple kids. I've seen pictures of his family, beautiful family. And now, as I said, he's running in Ohio. He's married. He's got a couple of kids. I've seen pictures of his family, beautiful family. And now, as I said, he's running in Ohio. J.D., thanks for joining us today. Yeah, thank you for having me. So we want to get your perspective that, you know, Congresswoman, she she actually laid out the situation.

You're welcome to lay out what you see as the situation, but we definitely want to get what you think should happen here. to lay out what you see as the situation, but we definitely want to get what you think should happen here. Yeah, yeah. So I will claim to be a foreign policy expert, though I enlisted in the Marine Corps when I was 18 and served four years overseas. And I guess I think about this from a few different angles. So the first angle is that I worry that a lot of our military adventures in the last 20 or 30 years haven't been super connected to a compelling American national security interest. Right. So I just want to start there and say, you know, our leaders have been so bad at connecting our national security interests to our foreign policy that I'm a little skeptical of their ability to do it this time, whereas they've failed the past 20 or 30 years. The second the second angle is that, you know, war is obviously a terrible thing, especially when you're talking about a nuclear power like Russia. And we have to be incredibly careful about what I'd call the tail end risk here.

What are the risks that this spirals out of our control? Even if it's one in 100, you play the game 99 times and it looks OK. But the one in 100 time that you play it the wrong way, you have a lot of dead people on our side and on other sides as well. And then the third thing, I guess, is that I feel with this Ukraine issue in particular, I feel that there's a sort of basically a bailout dynamic to this, where I know the Congresswoman talked about our energy policy, and I imagine we agree on most of that stuff, where really the problem here is that Russia controls Europe's non-green energy. And because green energy is so unreliable and obviously hasn't reached the technological milestone to where it's actually dependable, the reason that Germany and other European countries are so reliant on the Russians is that they control a ton of Europe's energy supply. And so if we end up finding ourselves in a weird military conflict or sort of

supporting from a secondary effect, a military conflict in the Ukraine, I think what that ultimately does is allows the Europeans to sort of get out of jail free card on their own energy policy, where frankly, if they had a little bit more of their own military strength, if they spent a little bit higher share of their GDP on their military and the United States didn't have to protect them. And if they had a little bit more energy independence, they would not need us to deal with Russia. They could do it themselves, which is what we should expect, given that Russia is close to them and it's not very close to us. That was a point that Trump continued to make is they need to spend more of their money on defense,

even to meet the 2% threshold as required. And he said, stop depending on Russia for your energy. These situations become very, very complicated. And I think the tale you're right has can be very meaningful. And so do we want to send young American men to Ukraine to fight the Russians? I don't think many Americans want that. I think, do we want to try to negotiate some kind of peaceful resolution, if possible, with a Putin? That's a great solution. I think arming the Ukrainians is a positive. solution. I think arming the Ukrainians is a positive. But China's actually watching what we do here. China's watching how they assault. We did in Afghanistan. It wasn't very impressive. We projected weakness. They're watching what we're doing in Ukraine. And we can't just walk away. I mean, Ukraine was the third largest nuclear power in the world after the fall of the Soviet Union, as Victoria Sparks pointed out, and they gave up their nuclear weapons based on a pledge by the US, not that they could join NATO, but that we would

provide security for them, provide aid to them should Russia ever be an aggressor. So does our word mean anything? And how does this play on the world stage becomes a factor in how we decide what to do? Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, certainly the one risk here, the sort of the good counter argument to my worldview here is that, you know, we've made certain commitments to the Ukrainians and we can't just walk away from certain promises without meeting those commitments. Now, but I'll tell you what scares the hell out of me with this whole thing is our intelligence

services are clearly missing something here, or our defense policy leadership is clearly missing something here because, you know, I was led to believe two weeks ago that war was imminent. I mean, like I expected to go to bed one day and wake up and find out that the Russians had just sent 50,000 ground troops across the Ukrainian border. Right.

But clearly that wasn't true. And there's even a weird way where the Ukrainians, who obviously are the most to lose here in this conflict, where the Ukrainians are sort of wagging their finger at the Biden administration for saber rattling a bit here. And you start to wonder, have we gotten ourselves in a position where we're actually the most hawkish entity that's playing in this entire sphere right the ukrainians the russians and the europeans seem to be more willing to do some negotiation they seem to be less i don't want to say excited but let you know they're leaning in less to a military conflict here and and again like i i hate to come back to this but i don't

have a lot of faith in our military brash and our intelligence services right now, because they've missed so much in the past 20 or so years. You know, somebody pointed this out to me the other day and I was sort of taken aback by it. I kind of reacted at first. I was like, no, that can't be true. But he was like the last U.S. general to not lose a war was Colin Powell, which over 30 years ago at this point. And when you get to that point, you start to say, can we really prosecute this fit in all of this? And are we unwittingly, and maybe unintentionally pushing the Russians into the Chinese camp at a time when we should be trying to surround the Chinese with adversaries, not creating new powerful allies for them? So it's funny that you were your first point, because we were on, I was on Fox and Friends this past weekend, and we had like

one of these like video clips of General Milley kind of breaking down the situation in Ukraine. And we came back and I just looked at my co-host and I said, I don't feel really good about this guy being in charge of anything. I was like, this doesn't give me any kind of confidence at all. So I hear your point on that completely. Now, we asked the congresswoman from Indiana about this China situation. And I said, do you think that our position or the position of the Biden administration and as you said, pretty aggressive, at least compared to the people, all the other players involved, are we pushing them into are you pushing Russia into the arms of China? Are we making that alliance tighter when, in fact, we should probably be trying to triangulate and kind of what you were just saying?

And she said her answer, by the way, was no, don't be naive. The Chinese and Putin have been close for a long time. The Chinese have major financial interests in Ukraine. She talked about some of these mining minerals that they use for the cell phones and all this kind of stuff. Rare earth minerals. Rare earth minerals.

There we go. I see the data, Jay. Do you see that? Yeah, you can see that. She talked about all these financial interests that China already had there and how close that Russia and China were anyway, and that this was not a factor. What do you say to that? Well, I do disagree with the congresswoman there. Right. Because, first of all, as we all know, these things change and these things evolve.

Right. The Russians were our greatest and most important enemy in the early 1980s and pretty much for the three decades prior to that. Obviously, the geopolitical situation changed and we were their closest ally for a long time, even though I think that, frankly, a lot of the policies that a lot of Americans pushed then on Russia were probably disastrous. You know, we used to be pretty close to the Chinese. We, of course, were fighting the Japanese and the Germans in the 1940s. And now, you know, they're important allies for ours. So I don't think these things are set in stone. And at the end of the day, like, I'm never going to sit here and say that Vladimir Putin is a great guy. And I'm not going to sit here and say that they're ever going to be our closest ally. But, you know, their interests are somewhere between ours and the Chinese, right? They don't want a Chinese superpower. They maybe don't like the Americans being too aggressive in Ukraine, but they have a lot of interests with ours. And I think that as the Chinese grow in power, if the Russians are being smart, then they

might see some avenues and some opportunities to work with us. So I don't think we should sort of write off the Russians. The other point that I'd make here is just from a cultural perspective, Russia is a weird place, right? I mean, sort of America, classic Western sort of clearly came out of the Anglo-Saxon legal tradition. The cultural connection between, say, us and the UK is much closer than it's ever going to be with us and Russia. But by that same token, Russia is not exactly aligned with the Chinese, right? It's a sort of Eastern Orthodox, very religious nation in a lot of ways, has a lot of cultural affinities with Europe more than it does with China. And I think one of the big mistakes that we've made in

foreign policy, I mean, going back to the Vietnam era, certainly in Iraq and Afghanistan, is sort of pretending that everybody is just super self-interested and that culture and history and religious tradition doesn't really matter. And I think if you view it through that lens, there are some opportunities. Again, we're never going to be best friends, maybe, or at least not best friends for the next 30 years. But we maybe have some real opportunities to work with these guys on some important shared interests, especially as the Chinese get more powerful. The final point that I'd make here is we have to be careful about what our military and what our economic power is being used for. Because if you look at what the State Department is doing, and I know you guys are sort of socially conservative. I also am very socially conservative.

guys are sort of socially conservative. I also am very socially conservative. If you look at what the State Department is doing, and this has made a lot of enemies, not just in, you know, it's made enemies in Russia, it's made enemies in China, it's made enemies in some African nations, some Asian nations, is that our State Department seems to want to push a very socially progressive worldview on the rest of the world. And a lot of people don't like that. And there is this weird way where we have to be careful that we don't let our patriotism, our love of the troops, our desire to honor our commitments to Ukraine, to allow conservatives to effectively greenlight a very left-wing State Department and pushing a radical ideology on the rest of the world. Just to be very specific, one of the things that the

State Department has criticized as Russia disinformation is that the United States is pushing a transgender ideology that's not good for civilization. Well, I happen to think that transgender ideology is not very good for civilization. And so if we're being honest with ourselves, the State Department here needs to actually reel itself in a little bit politically. And we need to not let ourselves, meaning conservatives, be used as pawns in a very left-wing game. It's such a great point. Sean and I both have relatives who are conservatives who happen to also be in the State Department. And for years, they've been telling us about this problem, about how they're willing actually to offend countries, you know, host countries that they're in in order to, you know, make these progressive, you know, to push these progressive agenda, transgender, you know, flying.

In some cases, flying the rainbow flag instead of the American flag, all kinds of stuff that's going on that a lot of conservatives don't like. And I think a lot of Americans don't even know is happening. That's right. Yeah. I mean, do we really want American young men to die and young women, too, of course, so that we can fly a rainbow flag or a BLM flag outside the Kabul embassy in Afghanistan? Right. And if we're just not, just let's not be, you know, our State Department shouldn't be stupid about this, whatever their ideology is, like, maybe that alienates the locals a little bit in a very traditionalist Muslim society, like have a little bit of respect for the local cultures here. But this is a big problem with

our State Department. And I unfortunately worry that a little bit of what's lurking behind the Russia hawkishness is a state department that doesn't even see America's interests, but they don't like what Russia stands for, which again, sometimes I don't like what Russia stands for either, but that doesn't mean our state department is always right. Yeah. It's the state department. How stupid can they be? I mean, I thought this is about, you know, building relationships and friendships, not offending our allies. JD, I know you have to go in a second, but I want to ask you one last quick question. So I thought you brought up a really good point. When you talk about politics, and oftentimes we all know,

all our listeners know how bad Joe Biden's poll numbers are. We know that you're running for the Senate. It looks like we're going to have a red wave coming in 2022 in November. Democrats are probably going to lose the Senate. For sure, they're going to lose the House. Oftentimes, war and taking your eye off your domestic issues and able to focus the American mind somewhere else can be very good politically, at least in the short term, it can be, which concerns me just to put a period on the point that you made. But the last question, you're a finance guy. So we've talked about giving weapons. We've talked about troops. We've talked about China.

But on the financial service side, what kind of impact can we have on China? And how powerful is that? And should we use those economic sanctions on a Russia that aggresses on Ukraine, or is it the wrong place for that kind of power? Yeah, I think we have to be careful, right? I'm not totally opposed to using sanctions, you know, and again, in the event that it's in our national interest. But, you know, it's a little weird to me that we talk about economic sanctions with the Russians when we never really talk about it with the Chinese.

Even as you guys probably know, the Chinese are buying up a ton of farmland in my home state of Ohio. That's so weird. We need to talk about that one day. Absolutely. It's just bizarre. And again, it's like, what are our leaders doing? We could wake up in a country in 10 years where a lot of our food supply, in addition to our pharmaceuticals and our manufacturing, are controlled by our biggest geopolitical foe. And we're sending ground troops to potentially fight the Russians. It's just like, this is so crazy to me. This is such a distraction from some of the real issues that we face. And look, I agree with you guys. I worry a little bit. And look, I'm a patriotic guy. I served in the Marine Corps for four years.

I don't think that we should be fighting the Russians. But the minute shots start firing, I am going to be the biggest gung-ho, America, let's go. I want us to beat these guys, right? That's how it works. But of course, that impulse can be manipulated by our leaders who are going to take the eye off the ball if we do get in a fight with the Russians and the fact that we have skyrocketing inflation, Chinese buying up our farmland, social media censorship, and any number of other crises that the left just doesn't want to talk about right now. So we've got to be careful here. Yeah, we have a lot of problems. Boy, you bring up a lot of them. Here's my last question to you. What should we do about Germany and their dependence on Russian oil and gas? Because it seems to me like that's

and all of Europe, but especially Germany, that to me, it seems like that is what is maybe dividing the West on its ability to respond or at least create a united front against Russia. Yeah, let me before I answer that, we put this as starkly as I can, I guess. We have to appreciate that American tax dollars, American lives, and unfortunately, maybe even American blood may be subsidizing a fake German energy economy, right? Why should American soldiers die so that Germans can feel good about their solar and wind farms? Because that's very close to the situation that they've put us in.

This is a disastrous energy policy that Germany has pursued. It has made them susceptible and vulnerable to the Russians. And they chose this, right? At the end of the day, the Germans chose this. And I think we have to say as Americans, look, if you want to pursue these disastrous energy policies, we disagree with it. We don't like it because maybe it empowers our enemies, but that is your choice and we're not going to bail you out. I mean, how many times have Americans been asked to bail out people who make stupid decisions, you know, from bakers and housing speculators in our own country to German energy policymakers?

This is ridiculous and we need to stop doing it. And frankly, if the Germans face some real consequences, maybe people all over the world will say, let's not go fully in on the green energy agenda because Americans aren't going to always be there to bail us out. Yeah. Well, we have stupid energy policies now too. Yes, we do. But again, maybe one last point. For oil and gas, they rely on Russia. And for green energy, batteries and windmills and solar panels, they rely on China.

It's like this is really, really stupid. Yeah, absolutely. JD, thank you for joining us. And I know you're on the campaign trail. And I know how hard that is. We did it as a family. And we wish you the best of luck. And again, primary is coming when, JD? Can I ask you one last question though regarding that though? Please go ahead.

How's your family doing on this thing? It's a family affair. We know how hard it is. And just, I saw the picture of your beautiful family and I just thought, my heart went out to them because I know how hard it is on the campaign trail. How, how's the family doing? How nice your opponents are to you, JD on TV. They seem to love you and say the best things about you. It's, it always feels good when your kids see that. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. No, we can't, can't watch a Bengals game without my fat head being on TV and saying something that is taken out of context.

I mean, look, I think there's no way to sugarcoat it. It's definitely hard on our family. And we had a baby, actually, a first daughter, a third kid, about a week before Christmas. So she's six weeks now. And my wife is a saint for letting me do this. And I will say, as hard as it is, it feels very worthwhile. And because we got a lot of family support, it hasn't been nearly as bad

as I feared that it would be. So I appreciate you asking. We're doing great. Family's doing great. There are some sacrifices that come along with it. But as you guys know, those sacrifices can be worthwhile.

I think if you do it the right way. I think you're right. And J.D., I'll just say that we know a lot of Americans don't know the sacrifice that goes in for a family when someone decides to raise their arm and run. And we're grateful that you're doing it. And we had a baby on the campaign trail too. That's hard. We had a baby as well. And yes, it's not easy. It makes life that much more difficult. I was, I was two months into the race coming home from a campaign event. And Rachel's like,

and I have some news for you. I'm pregnant. I like we can't do this john's like sorry i already announced but but again the work you can do jd especially with a you know a 50 50 senate um and hopefully we take this back into republican control and we're going to win the house incredibly important if we're going to save america so uh at least the duffy family i know so many ohioans are grateful for all you're doing and the work you're putting in, you'd make a great Senator. I think you would.

Thank you both. Well, thank you. That was a great conversation with JD. He's a bright guy, isn't he? He really is. Well,

we want to thank JD. We also want to thank Congresswoman Sparks, who gave us so much insight from her experience living in that area and for joining us at our kitchen table. It's a complicated issue, Rachel. I mean, as you look at this, you're like, well, there has to be some U.S. engagement, but it has to be really thoughtful. greatest faith that the American intelligentsia and the military and the State Department are the ones that are making the smartest decisions to navigate this very treacherous waters really successfully for the American people. Yeah, I really thought that J.D. did a good job of reminding us of how incompetent so

many of our leaders are, how poorly executed so many of our recent wars have been. And I think it really does give you pause and go, gosh, I don't feel very good about Joe Biden and his team, whether it's General Milley or Blinken at the State Department. This grave, this important that could have so many consequences on the lives and direction of our country, especially at a time when we are so economically weak, we are so culturally weak, we are so weak on so many levels in our country with crime exploding and inflation and everything else we're dealing with. Just hard to believe we might open this can of worms as well. And I would say that we hire people in government, whether it's elected leaders or the staff that they're bringing around them, to be smart and make the right decisions. And sometimes the American people might want to go in one direction, but the intelligence and insight of the leader has to take you in a different direction and make the right call. I don't have the faith that they're going to make the right call and navigate this. the right call. I don't have the faith that they're going to make the right call. I don't at all. I think JD laid it out really well, especially when he talked about the priorities of our state

department. I've seen that for a long time now. Even when Trump was in, the deep state and the state department was pushing so many of these pro-abortion policies, pro-transgender, pro-gay policies all over and not really looking out for our interests our economic interests uh which should have been their priority can i just say one country one thing on jd um and you mentioned hillbillyology this is a guy who came from nowhere came from nothing yeah and was able to make something of his life and climb the ladder um i'm not supposed to say this anymore but he pulled himself up by his bootstraps. You can't say that in America.

I like men and women who have come from the hard place. They know how hard it is. And they have a heart for people. His mom was addicted to drugs. He was raised by his grandmother. He had this tough childhood and really made something of himself. And I think that he decided after he made some money, I guess he's kind of a wealthy dude from what I've been hearing.

He's done well in finance. Yep. He came back to Ohio and now he's running. But he gets a whole picture. He wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He wasn't gifted anything. Everything he has, he earned. And I think guys like that are

so cool and have so much insight. And I think they serve the country and their people really well. And so I, again, I'm excited about his candidacy. Yeah. And, you know, and Congresswoman Sparks too, Sean, I thought, you know, this is somebody, as you said, who knows what it's like to live under, you know, that, behind the iron curtain yeah yeah behind the iron curtain and she is i mean her perspective you know she met her husband on a train under her american husband and ended up moving here and she you know started her own business kind of also started from nothing and um studied economics so has a good grasp on that started the tea party in her community i mean she began people who have lived under what democrats want this country to live under

oh they'll fight to keep us free some of the immigrants who have lived there they want to keep what has made this country so great which is our freedom and our free enterprise people experience communism boy they're they're the greatest fighters um in in congress so anyway great conversation. I don't know if it helped people make up their mind one way or another. It didn't help me. I'm still a little bit like, where do we go? But I guess I see the value of containing Russia at the end of this and and staying true to some of the commitments we made to the Ukrainians.

And we asked them to give up their nuclear weapons. I think that's important. But I think overriding is the incompetency and my lack of faith in our leaders to execute this in a way that will actually bring about a good end, especially for our interests. I'm just not there. My one takeaway is we have so many problems here. I want them to deal with that. Give them the tools, give them the arms, let them have the

resources to fight for themselves and fight for their own freedom. I don't want to spend American blood, but I, but again, the Ukrainians are strong people. They're proud people. They want to fight. If we want to help them with military assets, that's what our role should be, but not young men and women. And I think that would keep our pledge to them, that we'll assist them. And they have been dying. They have been dying and we have not been assisting them properly. I will say one last point, my biggest takeaway, and I kind of came into the conversation with this anyway, Sean, but my biggest takeaway is Germany. Germany's a problem.

They seem to get it wrong through history here. They got to fight for their own. They got to deal with their own energy, the consequences of their own energy policy, and I'm not willing to put our boys, our blood, our treasure on the line for them to be

green. Heck no, but what's not green was my coffee was black. So thanks for joining us at the kitchen table, everybody. We appreciate the conversation and the insight. If you've enjoyed this conversation, make sure you subscribe, you rate, you review, you like, whatever the hell you're supposed to say now, Rachel. Yeah, review and rate this podcast at boxfusepodcast.com or wherever you download podcasts. We hope to see you

around the kitchen table next week. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. From the Fox News Podcast Network. I'm Janice Dean, Fox News Senior Meteorologist. Be sure to subscribe to the Janice Dean Podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

And don't forget to spread the sunshine.