From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - The War On Pro-Life Doctors & Medical Students

Episode Date: March 16, 2023

On this episode, Sean and Rachel sit down with the CEO of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists Dr. Christina Francis. Dr. Francis discusses how her organization was barred from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists annual conference and why she believes her group was targeted. Dr. Francis also shares what resources the AAPLOG offers to patients. Later, they are joined by former Co-Host of The View and author of the new book, You Don't Have to Carry It All: Ditch the Mom Guilt and Find a Better Way Forward, Paula Faris, to talk about her career in media and the inspiration behind her book.(insert link) Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With Uber Reserve, you can book your Uber ride in advance. 90 days in advance. Perfect for all you forward thinkers and planning gurus. Reserve your Uber ride up to 90 days in advance. Uber Reserve. See Uber app for details. Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm Sean Duffy, along with my co-host for the podcast, my partner in life, and my wife, something like that,

Rachel Campos Duffy. Oh boy, it's great to be back at our kitchen table. In fact, our guests, before we started, said, wow, you really are at your kitchen table. In fact, our guests before we started said, wow, you really are at your kitchen table. You really are in the kitchen. And Sean was grabbing coffee just before we start this. And this is a topic, as you know, Sean, pro-life issues are near and dear to my heart. And when I was at the pro-life rally, I always love going, not just because I love to tell what happens at the Right to Life March, but I meet so many interesting people, old friends and new friends.

And one of them is our next guest. Her name is Dr. Christina Francis. She's an OBGYN, and she's also the chair of the board of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Christina, welcome to the kitchen table. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for having me. So when we met, we talked about some of the discrimination. We were just sort of off-camera chatting and I had asked you, are new doctors having new residents, people getting into the gynecology field, is there pressure for them if they happen to be pro-life? You said yes. And that's one of the things that your group does is

offer support to those doctors who are pro-life. And then fast forward a month or two later, and you have an OBGYN national conference that your pro-life doctor group, OBGYN group, has been part of in terms of tabling and giving information to other OBGYNs. For 15 years, you've been tabling there. You paid your fee back in April of last year. You get to the event. You start to get ready to table. And all of a sudden, you're told you're not allowed

to be part of this conference. Break it down for us because this seems like more discrimination. Tell us what happened. Pro-lifers. Yeah, absolutely. Well, so as you said, we have exhibited at this conference for the last 15 years. And the reason this conference in particular is actually so important is because the the reason this conference in particular is actually so important is because the people attending this conference are medical educators. So they're the people who are educating OB residents and medical students when they're doing their OB rotation. So the next generation of our profession are being educated by the people attending this conference. And, you know, though we know that not everybody at the conference is in agreement with our position on the issue of abortion, the reason why we have felt every

year it was so important to be there is because we present medical evidence about the harms of abortion for women. And, you know, even if someone doesn't agree with us on the issue of abortion, if they are going to be counseling patients and giving them informed consent, which is a central tenet of what we do as physicians, they need to understand what these risks are, you know, related to abortion. And so we've presented there every year. And then, as you said, this year, we were already in Maryland, ready to go present at the conference. And we found out just a few days before the conference started that our booth had been literally in the email. the conference started that our booth had been literally in the email, it said canceled. And, you know, that we would not be allowed to present at that conference, simply because we disagreed with ACOG. And then ACOG, the American College of OBGYNs, who claims to represent all OBGYNs in this country, they went on record last week saying that we were specifically excluded because we're pro-life.

So what I don't understand is, has the American College of OBGYNs come out and said, our official position is we're pro-abortion? I mean, has that been there? Do they have a vote on it to go, this is the official position? This is the best care for women through this college that everyone, you know, support abortion? Well, you know, that's a great question. So they are very much pro-abortion now, but interestingly, they've never surveyed their membership on this issue. So they claim to represent 60,000, I think was the last number I

heard, OBGYNs across the country, and yet we know that they don't represent most OBGYNs on this issue. However, over the last several decades, they have just moved in a more and more pro-abortion direction. And it's really been a top-down push from their leadership to say that we are not going to support any restrictions whatsoever on abortion, even common sense ones. They oppose the partial birth abortion ban. They opposed admitting requirements in the June medical case. And then, of course, once the Dobbs decision was issued last year, they came out very strongly against that decision, claiming that abortion is essential health care, that it should not

be restricted in any way, and even claiming in one of their previous ethics statements that you are an unethical physician if you will not either perform or refer for abortion. And if you're not willing to do that, that you need to relocate your practice within 20 miles of someone who will. So not only are they just pushing abortion as essential healthcare, which we know it's not, the vast majority of OBs don't do abortions, but they are also pressuring physicians to say that you are unethical if you will not end the life of your fetal patient through elective abortion. Yeah, you know, I talk all the time, as much as I can get out there

from my platform, about the need to have, you know, I'm a mother of nine. I've had two miscarriages. I'm a mother of nine. I've had two miscarriages. And I can't tell you how important it is for me to have a doctor who sees me and my baby both as their patients. It doesn't seem like an extreme position at all to have your point of view. I thought it was interesting, Christina, that you said that the doctors, the vast majority of OBGYNs do not perform abortions. And yet this organization is so pro-abortion. What is the percentage of OBGYNs who perform abortion? And why aren't more of them speaking up? What's going on within your profession? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think a lot of people will be surprised to know that when you look at sort of general practice OBGYNs, so those that are providing care for most patients

in this country, more than 90% of them do not perform abortions. Only 7% perform elective abortions. And it's not because we don't have the technical skills we would need to do them. In our residency programs, we're taught how to empty a uterus, you know, for a variety of conditions such as miscarriage, things like that. So we have the technical training that we would need to be able to do abortions. It's just that the vast majority of OBs choose not to. And I personally think it's because we understand as OBGYNs, as you said, that we're caring for two patients at once.

And it is antithetical to the oath that we took as physicians to protect our patients, to not intentionally harm them or end their lives. And so the vast majority don't do it as part of their practice, which to me speaks volumes to the fact that it's not healthcare. But to your point, you know, why are more not speaking up? Well, a big part of that is because of the intimidation that is occurring from our major medical organizations like the American College of OBGYNs. Or I think when you and I met at the March, I told you about this past summer, right after the Dobbs decision, our board certification

entity, the American Board of OBGYNs, who grants me my board certification, which is what allows me to work in a hospital, they came out with a statement saying that if any of their board certified physicians were caught spreading myths or disinformation about abortion, that their board certification could come under review. And of course, they were not specific about what constitutes myths or disinformation and who would be deciding that. But just two weeks prior to that, they had issued a statement in response to the Dodds decision saying that abortion is essential health care. So I don't think it's too hard to connect the dots to think about what they would consider to be mis- or disinformation. So of course, physicians are scared to speak up. Their livelihoods are potentially at risk. So doctor, what is the American College of OBGYNs? I guess I don't know what that is and

why are they so influential or so impactful? And maybe a second part of the question is, why are they so influential or so impactful? And maybe a second part of the question is, if they don't fully represent all of the OBGYNs, it's a minority dictating to the majority, why aren't more of the majority running to get on the board of the American College? Yeah, that's a great question. So to answer the first part, the American College started back in the 1950s as the representative professional medical organization for OBGYNs. And actually, when they started, they were actually relatively pro-life. So they acknowledged that elective abortion had no place in health care.

However, starting in the late 1960s and into the early 1970s, they started this sort of top-down push. And into the early 1970s, they started this sort of top-down push. So some pro-abortion activists actually were in leadership of ACOG and decided that elective abortion needed to be incorporated into women's health care. And so ACOG actually wrote pro-abortion amicus briefs in the Roe and Doe cases. cases. You know, many people might know that in Dovey-Bolton, that health exception, that language that was worked into the Dovey-Bolton case is what allowed for abortions basically for any reason. That language came from ACOG, unfortunately. And so when members within ACOG started to see that happening, they actually formed APLOG. We were started as a pro-life special interest group within ACOG. And so since then,

unfortunately, ACOG has just continued to move, as I said previously, in a very pro-abortion direction. But yet they continue to claim and are looked at by the courts and by legislators as being sort of the standard setting organization for OBGYNs. There is not actually a reason that any OBGYN has to be a dues paying member of ACOG because our board certification entity and our licensing is totally separate from ACOG. In fact, I have not been a dues paying member of ACOG for the last eight years because they started a political action committee and they actually forced their members to financially support their political Action Committee. And I don't agree with their political lobby, so I haven't paid dues to them for the last eight or nine years. But yet they continue to claim to represent all OBGYNs, and

they actively exclude anyone who is pro-life, or at least vocally pro-life, from their leadership. We know that many of their leadership are involved with Planned Parenthood, with the Center for Reproductive Rights, groups like that, that are obviously advocating for abortion. And so they've continued to maintain sort of the stronghold on appearing to be the standard-setting organization. And on many issues, they do a great job. However, on the issue of abortion, they do not represent the vast majority of their members. And again, that's why our organization, the American Association of Pro-Life OBGYNs, was formed so that we could represent sort of a second medical opinion to the medical profession, to the courts, to legislators and policymakers on the issue of abortion.

What has been the reaction since, I mean, so we covered this on Fox and Friends. I know there were other organizations covering it. You now have, which I wanted to ask you this, Sean, since this story has come out and people have been upset, members of Congress have now written a letter, including your friend, Virginia Fox, written a letter saying, advising other members of Congress who are pro-life to not meet with this particular group when they come onto the Hill. Christina, before I get your reaction, tell me what the reaction has been with the doctors. Sean, explain, because I want to know, why is that an impactful way to respond? So, Dr., you probably know this. There's

oftentimes fly-ins. Every organization under the sun flies into Washington at some point, and they want to storm the hill, and they want to meet with their members of Congress and their senators. And by the way, if you have members from every state, almost every district, it's a way to get your message out and get members of Congress to advocate for your position. And to your question, if members of Congress say, you know what, you're actually a pro-abortion political advocacy group, we're not going to meet with you, all of a sudden, they're seen as partisan. They're seen as maybe a left-wing Democrat. Which seems like a fair thing. They should be viewed as partisan.

And where Republicans will say, maybe if Christina's group comes in and says, well, we want to meet with you as well and talk about the issues that matter to us. But also we're opposed to the the the issue of abortion being pushed down our throat. It's a it creates a splinter. Right. And they don't want to have a splinter. They want to, to the doctor's point, they want to project that they speak for all OBGYNs. Yeah. And it dilutes the power of their organization. Right. So what has the reaction been, Christina, since this media attention has come onto your

organization and what this organization did to yours? Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, first of all, we're so thankful for the support that we have gotten from several members of Congress to say that this is not appropriate. You know, we're not asking for ACOG to be pro-life. We're just asking for them to allow an open and free exchange of ideas and allow evidence on the pro-life side of this issue to be presented and then allow members of Congress, the general public, medical professionals to, you know, decide for themselves where the evidence leads. But we're also, we've heard from so many of our members, but also other OBGYNs who didn't even necessarily know about our organization,

who are saying, thank you. Thank you so much for standing up to ACOG. They have not represented me for a long time on this issue. And maybe those members are in a place where they might face being fired if they speak up, you know, in defense of their pro-life position or speak out against ACOG. And so we just are so blessed to be able to represent them. You know, I understand that not every physician can be as vocal as I have been on this issue. But as I said at the March for Life, and I'll say it again, I just feel such an honor and a great responsibility that I'm able to represent thousands of physicians across this country who practice medicine from a pro-life standpoint,

but can't necessarily stand up for themselves. And so that's what we're trying to do is to stand up for them and push back against ACOG when they can't. Yeah, it's just what's fascinating to me is the other side has no problem. The pro-choice side has no problem being vocal. They never are at risk of losing their jobs. Here's my question to you. And this is sort of like a general physician kind of question. During COVID, and I've talked about this a lot, Sha, as to, you know, there was so there was an opportunity when there was so much misinformation, so much authoritarian decision making being made at the very top that we now know many of those decisions were wrong.

And but there were so many physicians that were afraid to speak. And there were so few who spoke out about how things were being run. And I was so angry at the medical field because that cowardice could have saved our country. It could have saved businesses. It could have saved kids from, you know, two years of lockdown and no education. Are you seeing that physicians are now going, we got to step out. We can't just be in our little world and afraid of our, you know, hospital administrators, afraid of losing our license. We got to speak out or we're going to lose our profession. It's getting to the point where, you know, you can't speak the truth. You can't even speak about the science. And you're coming at this, by the way, And you're coming at this, by the way, this issue from the position of science as well.

Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, you're exactly right. I think something that the last few years has exposed is something that we on the pro-life side have known was going on within our profession, unfortunately, for a long time, for nearly two decades now, which is the suppression of sort of inconvenient medical evidence and inconvenient science. And, you know, as medical technology and ultrasound technology and all of that has expanded so much in the last few decades, it has only further supported the pro-life position. And yet we have seen publication bias for the last, again, two decades against good research that shows the harmful effects of abortion on women. And as you said, doctors have been silenced and it has eroded the trust in our profession for many, many reasons, which is so heartbreaking to me. You know, as someone who invested a lot of time in my training and getting to this position in medicine for a very good reason, because it was a noble profession, it's so disheartening to me to see solid voices within the medical profession being silenced when they're just trying to speak the truth based on the scientific evidence, as you said, and what's best for their patients.

And so, you know, I think what the last few years has exposed is something that we've known was going on for quite some time in our profession. And my hope is that now that maybe some other physicians around the country see us standing up to groups like ACOG who are trying to silence us when we just are trying to provide the best possible healthcare to our patients, I'm hoping it will give them courage to speak out for what they know to be true as well. We'll have more of this conversation after this. With Uber Reserve, good things come to those who plan ahead. Family vacay? Reserve your ride as soon as you book your flights. To all the planners, now you can reserve your Uber ride up to 90 days in advance. See Uber app for details. I hope they do speak out. Question for you, though. When I look at what

authoritarians, which is, in my view, the left, what they do is they take over schools. They take over universities. And so if you look at the school systems around the country, is the view of abortion and the viewpoint of the American College of OBGYNs, is that now what's being taught to new doctors coming out, new OBGYNs? It's like there's only one school of thought, and it's that you can't be pro-life, you have to be pro-abortion, and you have to be pro-abortion to the point of life, which means late-term partial birth abortions. Is that now like the gold standard of scholastics for new OBGYNs? Or those who are pro-life, they understand that and they know they have to silence themselves. They can't say how they feel about a baby in the womb. I'm talking about the schools. Yeah, yes. You're talking about in medical schools. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, a couple of different things are

happening. One is that we've seen a shift now in training. So the accrediting body, which is another organization that accredits medical training programs actually shifted a few years ago to requiring abortion training to be opt-in, meaning if a student wanted abortion training, they would opt into that. They switched it to it being opt-out. So now it's considered standard part of training. And if you as the lowly medical student don't feel comfortable doing abortions, you have to have the courage to speak up and say, I don't want to do abortions. I know it's part of the standard curriculum, but I don't want to do it. Well, all of us know that that sets up a very coercive environment for students to feel like they have to go along to get along or go along

to be able to graduate. So that's one thing. And because of that, we see students self-selecting out of the field of OBGYN, even though they would love to go into OB, because they're afraid that they're going to be pressured into doing abortions. And so again, that's one of the most important things I feel like we're doing as an organization is helping support medical students, giving them the medical evidence that they need to stand firm in their pro-life position to say, this is not just a moral issue for me. This is a patient care issue. This is not good care for my patients. And to that end, just to share something really exciting that just recently happened with our organization. We had our national conference last month. We had 70 students there on full scholarship who were able to come to our conference, learn about the medical

evidence, network with practicing pro-life physicians. And I can't tell you how many times I heard over the course of that weekend, how encouraged those students were not only to be learning things that they're not learning at their medical school, but also just to know they're not alone. They feel so alone and so isolated. And I think just the encouragement of being able to be there with practicing physicians who are practicing from a pro-life standpoint was just really amazing for them. I have to believe that a medical school that would want a medical student who wants to go into, you know, one of the most beautiful fields there are. I mean, congratulations to you. And by the way, I should note that all the stuff that you've done, I mean, you're an OBGYN, but you've worked in Kenya and Romania. I mean, you've done so much great work around the world. It's such a beautiful field. And I have to believe these people, these pro-choice people who are running these schools

are trying to desensitize these doctors to abortion. Because I mean, I guess that's another question I have for you is, what does it do? I mean, you must have met OBGYNs who have performed abortions and also live birth. What does that do to someone's brain? I mean, it just seems like it would put me in the funny farm. Well, you know, it's a question that I've asked myself as well so many times because I just can't imagine how someone could go from one operating room where they are destroying a life through elective abortion, and then go into the next operating room where they're rejoicing with a family over the birth of their child. You know, these two children are exactly the same. You know, I think there just has to be a mental disconnect, honestly. And, you know, for a lot of, I always try to

empathize as much as I can with people on the other side of this issue. And I do think, you know, for a lot of, I always try to empathize as much as I can with people on the other side of this issue. And I do think, you know, one of the real dangers with what we were just talking about, about how medical training has shifted and has normalized elective abortion is that people are a product of their training. And so now we have physicians that are graduating that I think they really do truly feel like they're helping women. And so that's one thing that we are trying to reach out to them to say, you know, not only is elective abortion ending the life of your fetal patient

who you worked so hard to defend and protect throughout a woman's pregnancy, but it's also harming the maternal patient as well. And so helping them to understand that. But you're right, Rachel. You know, there just has to be this sort of mental wall that people put up. And we do that in medicine because you deal with tough outcomes and you deal with really difficult situations. So you kind of learn how to compartmentalize a little bit. But I don't understand it either. I mean, so much of our field, of our specialty is focused on how do we maximize the health

of both of these patients in front of us. And it's such a unique aspect. There's no other specialty in medicine that has that unique challenge of caring for two patients at once. And so, so much of what we do is focused on that. It is really hard to imagine how someone could normalize the taking of that vulnerable life. But again, I think it's just because they are honestly being brainwashed through their training. It's being normalized in their training.

And that's why it's so important for those of us in practice to traumatize. This isn't normal. You know, Dr., you talked about obviously what happens to a baby during an abortion, but also there's a longer-term impact on a mother. And our government spends billions of dollars on all kinds of studies, on all kinds of issues. Do we study the long-term impact of a mother who's had an abortion, whether it's depression or guilt? Have we done those studies? Do we know what long-term effects the mother has after an abortion? Yeah, absolutely. So we actually have a lot of scientific evidence, medical evidence about the long-term impact of abortion on women.

One of the best proven negative impacts is an increased risk of preterm birth in future pregnancies. So there's more than 160 studies over the last five decades that show that the more surgical abortions a woman has, the higher her risk of preterm birth in future pregnancies. And as I'm sure many people know, that the risks then to her future children of preterm birth are very significant, especially if they're born very preterm. And, you know, this country, even though we have a great medical system, we have one of the worst preterm birth rates in the developed world. And part of that, I think, is because of how many abortions we do in this country. And then not only does that impact her future children's health, but it impacts hers

as well. We know that women who have a history of preterm birth have a higher rate of cardiovascular disease later in life. So it has that sort of double impact on her health. And also you brought up mental health. You know, we are in the midst of a mental health crisis in this country that certainly has only been exacerbated over, you know, with everything that's happened in the last few years. And the studies overwhelmingly show that abortion has a significant negative mental impact on women, up to a six to seven times increased risk of suicide, a massive increased risk in drug and alcohol abuse. I mean, look at the opioid epidemic that we have going on in this country, and drug use is exacerbated in women who have had abortions as well. And the other side will try to claim that women have

worse mental health outcomes if they are denied an abortion when they want one. They base that off of a single cohort of patients. And we could do a whole podcast episode on what's wrong with that study. But I think the most important thing to point out is that that cohort of patients that they like to quote, actually, when they followed them out for five years, 96% of those women said they were glad they were denied an abortion because they were so thankful to have their child at home with them. And so what we see is that, yeah, yeah. Does ACOG or any, I mean, are physicians who perform abortions, does ACOG recommend that these things that you're laying out that can happen to women if they have abortion, do they have to let them know that these are the side effects potentially of having an abortion besides losing the child? losing the child? Yeah, no, you know, ACOG claims to favor informed consent for women, but yet any state that tries to pass informed consent laws to say that women need to be told about

these dangers, ACOG shows up and says that these are not proven by the medical science. I testified in front of Congress this last summer, and I was talking about all of these risks. I talked about the preterm birth risk, and I had a binder in front of me that had the studies in it that proved the points that I was saying. And an ACOG representative who was also on the panel said that ACOG categorically denies that abortion has any relationship to preterm birth and future pregnancies. So they choose to ignore the wealth of medical evidence instead saying that abortion is safe and that it is essential health care and should be provided to women essentially no questions asked. So 40 percent of abortions in America right now are chemical abortions, meaning the woman is given the woman or girl is given pills and they basically are performing a DIY project at home. They're alone. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. So actually the, and the latest numbers actually show that it's more than 50% now. So it's been just increasing exponentially. And these are really dangerous drugs, very dangerous drugs. They have a four times higher complication rate than surgical abortions, actually. Massive rates of hemorrhage, infection. And now, as you said,

it's being promoted, including by ACOG, that this be done self-managed, essentially, and be done at a woman's home without her being seen in person. There's so many problems with that. One, she doesn't have her gestational age confirmed. She doesn't have an ectopic pregnancy rolled out. If she's not being seen in person, how can she possibly be getting informed consent or being screened for coercion? We know that more than 60% of women who seek abortions are being coerced into that decision. And there's already been documented cases of men obtaining these dangerous drugs for their girlfriend who didn't want an abortion and putting them into her drink to cause an abortion. This is not empowering for women. It's not safe for women. And yet again, the American

College of OBGYNs who should be looking out for the health of women, regardless of where they stand on the issue of abortion, are recommending something that I would consider to be medical malpractice, honestly. 100%. And I can tell you what, Christina, I'm so grateful that you're so bold. And you're willing to speak out for other OBGYNs that don't have the same courage that you do. Again, you know, saying, listen, there is a healthy way. And there should be a debate. I disagree that there should be a debate, but I'll respect the other viewpoint. But again, I think that's why you're so threatening. That's why they don't want you to table because they don't want your voice to be heard because I think it's such a powerful message and they don't want their conference split.

Yeah, but I also think there's a rise in attacks against pro-lifers. I mean, we saw it after the Roe versus Wade decision was overturned and turned back to the states. Pro-life centers that give away free diapers and provide so many free services to women are being attacked. And I think that this is an example of the boldness that the other side sees because the DOJ and this administration are on their side. My husband, Sean, always says it takes one person with courage to stand up and that other people will join. Christina, we think that you're that person on the pro-life side and boy, we need more doctors to have the courage that you have. Thank you for joining us today. You're an amazing woman. I hope you come and tell us anytime

you see more prejudice and discrimination against pro-life doctors and pro-life medical students because we want to bring light to it whenever we can. Christina, thank you for joining us today. Absolutely. Thank you guys so much for having me. And can I just add that if anybody has, wants any more information about some of the things that we've talked about today, they can go to our website and that's a-a-p-l-o-g.org. Say that for me one more time. Say it one more time. Sure. A-a-p-L-O-G.org. Say that for me one more time. Say it one more time.

Sure. A-A-P-L-O-G.org. Okay. Wonderful. And they can join your organization. Absolutely. We welcome any medical professionals. They don't have to be OBGYNs.

They just have to desire to care for both of their patients. Let's make your organization bigger than the American College of OBGYNs. Wouldn't that be great? Yeah. And also, if you're looking into the medical field or you're a resident or you're a medical student, please reach out. There is support, as she said. You can make it to their conference. They'll help you.

And you can realize you're not alone. And by the way, can I make one more pitch? the way, can I make one more pitch? If you are thinking about getting pregnant, if you are pregnant, if you're going to be pregnant in the future, choose a pro-life doctor. It is so important that your baby and you are considered both patients by your doctor. The only way to guarantee that is if you have a pro-life OBGYN. So please support pro-life OBGYNs by asking and shopping around and making sure you find one. And I can just say from my own perspective, I had my last pregnancy, Christina, was a baby with Down's. Thank God I had pro-life doctors who supported me all the way through. As you know, from the pro-life rally, we interviewed half a dozen women in the span of 10 minutes who said I was diagnosed with having a Down's baby or a baby with Down's.

Or I they thought something was wrong with my pregnancy. And all these women said that they were recommended to have abortion by their pro-choice doctors. And so it's so important to choose a pro-life doctor and support pro-life doctors. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you all were able to have that wonderful experience with your pro-life doctor, because you're right. So many women and families have not had that support. And we want to continue to provide that kind of support to our patients and patients around the country. Well, God bless you for what you do. It's a true vocation. Dr. Francis, thank you for joining us. Keep up the good work. Keep up the fight.

Keep it up. I love you. Thank you both. I love you. Just one slight correction. When you say it's pro-choice, don't use their language. Yeah, you're right. It is pro-abortion. You're aiming at the best time. Thank you. When you say it's pro-choice, don't use their language. Yeah, you're right. It is pro-abortion. You're aiming at it at that time. Thank you.

Thank you for that. And Dr. Francis, I'm so grateful that she's out there fighting the good fight. Yeah. She's a warrior. And she's a good woman. A good doctor. We love that. We'll be back with much more after this.

You've always wanted to be part of something bigger than yourself. You live for experience and lead by example. You want the most out of life and realize what you're looking for is already in you. This is for you. The Canadian Armed Forces.

A message from the Government of Canada. Paula Ferris, welcome to The Kitchen Table. We want to talk about your life and also your book. I'm going to tell the title right off the bat here. The title is You Don't Have to Carry It All, Ditch Mom Guilt and Find a Better Way Forward. I think a lot of women are going, I need this book. Tell me your journey. You're at nine years at ABC. What brought you to this point of writing this book? Well, first of all, it's so great to be at the kitchen table. I wish that we could have a drink and maybe some appetizers.

We'll bring some food to the table language. Well, I know you guys are Midwesterners. I'm from Michigan. So the way to our my heart is through my stomach. So I don't know if that goes for you guys, too. Amen on that. Okay, so yeah, I spent a lot of time in network news. I pumped the brakes at the height of my career, my broadcasting career when I was anchoring GMA weekends and co-hosting The View. And I just and Rachel, I don't know if you can relate to this. I just never felt like I was nailing it at work and at home. I just, you know, when you're working, you feel like you should be momming. When you're momming, you feel like you should be working.

A lot of that's because it's not easy to be like it's really tough to be a mother in America, harder really than anywhere else in the world. So anyway, I pumped the brakes in 2018. And then 2020, I lost my job like a lot of other mothers. And right at the beginning of the pandemic, and I had two choices. Do I stay in network news, which was my experience? Or do I really pursue this passion, which had been lit inside of me years prior? I have three kids, I've had been lit inside of me years prior? I have three kids. I've always been a working mom, but always felt this tension and didn't feel like motherhood was really valued by the workforce and by society.

So I started digging into it. And I decided to launch a company called Carry Media to help carry the burdens of women and mothers. And the more I looked into it, I was like, I had to write this book because I found that motherhood, mothers are marginalized. It's quantifiable.

It is fact not feeling that once you become a mother here in America, you are paid less, you are valued less, and you are scrutinized more. And on top of that, record numbers of burnout. And so I wanted to be part of the change and do something about it. So I put my reporter hat on. I interviewed all kinds of burnout. And so I wanted to be part of the change and do something about it. So I put my reporter hat on. I interviewed all kinds of experts from all walks of life,

different political aisles, too, to make sure we got some balance to figure out not just how we can give mothers, the working moms, the support that they need and deserve, but also the why behind it. Because I feel like a lot of people don't understand why it's even important. And even just from an economic standpoint, it's good to support families, because if you don't, we're going to have fewer laborers in the labor market, and then we can't grow our economy. So anyway, it's just been a really awesome project for me. I hope it's a hug and a sword for mothers everywhere that they feel seen, heard, and empowered. This is a process or a journey that I've watched in my own house. Because I was an at-home mom for 14 years.

Yeah. And then started entering the workforce, but always kind of did it in sort of a part-time way. But it was still really hard. And I had to piece things together, and it was tough. But, Paula, they're both full-time jobs. Yeah, absolutely they are. A full-time job and being a parent're both full-time jobs. Yeah, absolutely. They are. And being a parent is a full-time job or a mom or so that maybe dad seems to be a full-time job, which you mentioned

in your book. So advice on how do you navigate two full-time jobs? How can you be successful at both? Yeah. And the statistics are the average working mother works 98 hours a week. That includes the unpaid labor at home and mothering and everything and the work in the office. And the reality is, you guys, what was really fascinating for me, chapter three, I really got to dig into the history of America's families, because I think we all, myself included, romanticize and have a great bit of nostalgia for the 1950s. Oh, let's get back to that family. But that's not the reality anymore. nostalgia for the 1950s. Oh, let's get back to that family. But that's not the reality anymore. Most families need two incomes. More moms are working for the paycheck. Most moms are working for the paycheck. And get this, you know, from a political standpoint, too, like 70% of moms will be the primary breadwinner in their children's lives. So if we continue to pay mothers 70 cents

on the dollar, those numbers are even more egregious for mothers of color, will continue debt and poverty and all of that. So, but, you know, getting to your point, Sean, it's just, you know, for me seeing that the 1950s, which I kept romanticizing, let's get back to that. And that was a lot of the tension I have always held. My mom was a stay-at-home mom. We didn't have a lot, right? So, you know, shouldn't a mom stay home and quote-unquote raise the children? A, that's not the reality, but also B, like the 1950s, I learned were good for part of the people part of the time and predicated on really awful things when you peel back the layers because Black people were forced out of the workforce. Women were forced out of the workforce. Men came home with lipstick on their collar. If you've watched Mad Men, that show, you know, but what was the show? Yeah, it happened. So I know because we think, oh, it was a much more moral time. Well, women couldn't get a job if their husband was was

unfaithful. And if they did, they were paid pennies on the dollar. We had a third of the country in poverty. We had a teenage pregnancy boom. I didn't know any of this really happened. So reporting on this, it revealed a lot of blind spots for me. But I will just say I've dealt with mom guilt and it's an American thing. That's what I learned. It was kind of born in the US of A. It really was because globally, mothers have a much a healthier perspective on work. They work mainly because they have to and they take a great amount of pride. But then the policy level and the societal attitudes are so much different. There's a beautiful interdependence. They have family living with them. Right. Well, I think that's part of the that's part of the issue is the is the family dynamic.

I mean, people live in other countries much more intergenerationally. Absolutely. And and I think that support system, it's interesting, Paula, there's an article that just came out a couple days ago in the Daily Mail where they said because of the terrible Biden economy, a lot of families are now having to live intergenerationally. So young couples who maybe thought they were going to live in California are going, I'm going to move back to Missouri and live with my mom and dad, because I can't afford to do that anymore. And so there's a rise of that. And I was talking to Sean about how, you know, it's sad because our economy is terrible right now. And people are struggling, especially the working class under all of this

inflation. However, that could kind of be a little bit of a silver lining because that is just a more realistic way to live. Rachel, you hit the nail on the head. It's not just realistic. It's healthy to live like that. You know, I have family in Lebanon. I just went to visit them a couple of years ago and like they don't have much, but it's all about the family and they have apartments. And then so they build one apartment on top of the other. And you'll see the corners, the wires, you know, poking through the roof, waiting for the next level, the next family to move in right above them. But it's that it's that mentality of they don't try to carry it all in other countries. I had a foreign exchange student.

to carry it all in other countries. I had a foreign exchange student. She's like, you know, why are American mothers working so much harder than mothers anywhere else? Because we don't have a realistic measuring stick of who of what we're supposed to look like. Right. We're still trying to be June Cleaver and do every single thing and carry it all. And we're trying to do it all without asking for help. We think it's a sign of weakness or it's a sign of failure. But I'm like, no, that's it's actually healthy to do life together, to have community, to have a tribe, to have family live with you. But in other countries, and this is key, you guys, not only do they have a policy, policies that really support it. And I do think like the government does need to step up because kids are either our future and the greatest national resource in this country

or they're not. So the policy makers have to step up and help. But also society, societal attitudes need to change because here in this country, it is a stress and strain to raise children. It is your children. It's your child, your problem. In other countries, it's I'm my brother's keeper. Even if it's not their children, they are all taking a vested interest in raising those children together because they realize the importance of family. They realize that children are the next generation and they really put their money where their mouth is. Yeah, but the problem with that, Paula, is today you do have a societal view, especially in the school system, where they're trying to indoctrinate your children in a way that isn't consistent with your values or your viewpoints. And so

I think there's a lot of conservative parents who would push back on that and go, you know what? Yeah, listen, it's great if we have a whole community. As Hillary Clinton would say, it takes a village, no doubt. But when those who are getting my kids and trying to separate their kids from their families- In terms of their values. Yeah. Right. But that's where I think, I think, I think then the concept that you just lay out doesn't actually work where if you have a community that all shares the same value and is all, you know, pulling together to raise good kids, because to your point, that is the strength of the next generation. Right. You make a good point, but that's not what's happening today. No, but I don't push back at that too, which I love. I love the push and pull, you guys.

That's why you create your community. You be the change and you help other people and you find your tribe. I'm not looking to the school system to instill values into my children. No, I don't want to co-parent with the government either. I have a wonderful tribe of family members, non-family members that we do life together. I call them up for carpools. Do you need some help? Can I help bring dinner to you? That's what I'm talking about, not trying to get the moral code from the school system.

That's totally different. But, Sean, what we can do as a – You mentioned government, though. You mentioned government. That's why I went to the school. OK, child care subsidies with child care. But but even that child care subsidies, we get five hundred dollars, a thousand dollars at the end of the year. Like that's offensive. It costs more to send your child to daycare than it does to go to in-state tuition.

It's like wages have been pretty stagnant. I have all this research in this book. Wages have been pretty stagnant. I have all this research in this book. Wages have been very stagnant. Childcare has gone up. And guess what that does to the mothers? Because we're making 70 cents on the dollar, it only makes sense that we're the ones that are going to have to stay home and we're the default. That's where the government can come, can step up to the plate and say, we're going to give each family $10,000 per child. You look globally, and say, we're going to give each family $10,000 per child. You look globally, you know, globally, there's some countries that give $20,000.

It is proven that it is a stress and a strain to raise children in this country. And again, children are either our greatest natural resource, and I know you guys have nine of them. They are the future of this country. And the health of a nation is determined by how it values families. We do a crappy job, a really crappy job of valuing families. We say we're about family values, but are we? No, we're not. We're not. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that, you know, for example, that strain, I mean, we, in our own family, ever since COVID actually, during COVID, we did like the opposite thing. My parents were living in a

condo in Arizona and they came and lived with us during COVID. We weren't supposed to do, but it was beautiful for us. They came and stayed with us. And ever since about three to four months a year, they stay with us. And it's just a wonderful time because not only is it helpful, but my kids learn something from the grandparents that they can't get from me. There's all that stuff. It kind of reminds me of what you say you saw back in Lebanon. And how do we get back to that? That's a really interesting thing because, frankly, a lot of elderly are languishing alone in nursing homes when they probably can be with their families.

Yeah. And then we have the sandwich generation which i don't know if you guys are there yet but like where we're taking care of kids and our and our and our elderly we're not there yet yeah my mom just went into assisted living so it's you guys it's it's real but like at the end of the day yeah the book is about giving mothers and working moms the support they need deserve but it's about the health of a family. It's about strengthening families.

And I think that's something that you and I, we can all agree on, right? We need to, I think, and this is just based on my research and my experience as a mom and my research as a journalist and talking to all different types. I really think our country is in the situation it's in today because we don't value families and we don't. We don't value fatherhood. I mean, we have a father. We don't value mothers. We have all these single moms.

And it's because we're not we're not valuing life. We're not valuing families. We're not. We're not. And I agree that that's straining the system. And we have 100 percent millions of kids growing up without the right kind of support. So, Paul, can I dig into it? So, again, you mentioned that moms, not women, but moms make 70 cents on the dollar, right?

Compared to fathers. Yep. Compared to fathers, right? And you make a good point. I'll look at our own family. Do I think Rachel picks up more of the burden in her house than me yes yes i'm fine with one standard she's she wants a different standard and i think every couple deals with what are the roles in the house i do think men today are more engaging than the father

of the 50s they are they. They are. But what I find interesting, and this might just be me, I feel like I live in a world that's run by women. Like women are elevated, and you make this point in your book, that companies are more often now being run by women, and women are better bosses, the company is more successful. And I see that as well. You see a lot more women rising up in the ranks in leadership roles. Yes. And so if there's a 70% differential

in pay for moms versus dads, is it that there's discrimination or is there moms are making different choices because they're like, listen, I'm taking the burden of not just the job, but I'm also taking maybe the main burden on raising kids or maybe the main burden of the whole. I just think a lot of women – can I just say this, Sean? What's happening here?

I think a lot of women are – like I think a lot of men – and listen, I believe there's huge biological differences between men and women. Absolutely. And I think that men will have a great career, and that can be extremely satisfying to them. I think that that's just not enough for women. They want to, and that's why I think this guilt intention that you've been talking about is that I could have a great career, but if things aren't going well with my kids, if my, if in my home, if things are, are not, you know, running well, if I don't feel like the relationship between me and Sean and me and my kids is going, well, I don't care about me. I really do work for my paycheck. I love my job.

And most moms are. A lot of moms are. My kids love me. My husband loves me, but my job isn't going to love me. And I think that that's also part of the differential potentially is that women go, okay, I like my career, but I'm going to take time off because I just had a baby and I would rather be with my baby. I agree with you that the assumption, we shouldn't have the assumption that women shouldn't go work, but we also should have the option for families to function if they decide that they want one parent in the home, because that's usually a great situation. It is. But I have learned too that children, and my mom was a stay at home, but I have learned, too, that like children and I was a state. My mom was a stay at home, so I can't speak to this firsthand.

But children of mothers who work, the sons are better partners, typically, and better fathers. That's what the statistics say. And the daughters grew up to be more confident, too. So that was a lot of the tension that I was carrying. But like, again, mothers globally don't have a choice to work. They take a great amount of pride in it and they have so much support from their community and from their society. And that's what I would like to see where we actually value families and we value motherhood. And motherhood isn't penalized and scrutinized like it is today here in America. That's why I think the book is so important.

I do think there's an attack on families. Agreed. And I do think to rally around families. And families are mothers and fathers and children. Yep. They come together. And when there's an attack on that or there's an idea that you don't have to have just one person can raise a child in the community steps and it doesn't, I think you're pointing something very important out that as fulfilled human beings, as parents in a relationship that provide for this little unit, it's important to society, support them in all kinds of ways. And I think the debate that you started is very

important in the book. And I appreciate that. And if I can make one other point too on something that you- Thank you. Also, give us your website one more time. It's carrymedia.com. And it means we want to carry the burdens of women and mothers. And the book is, you don't have to carry it. I'll ditch the mom guilt and find a better way forward. And I can just find on the website. The website, we have content and resource free, a lot of free resources and storytelling because our philosophy is being a working mom should work. And we want to help tell the stories to help change.

That's awesome. I love that. Can I make one last point before we go? I have a 1045 that I'm supposed to be on live. You can go. I'm going to just tell you this, that I think there's a time that men felt bad when their wives or their spouses made more than them. And I think that's a positive change that men are like, great, baby, you go, girl. You go make that money. You're working together. You're partnering. Yeah, you're partnering. So spousal equity is huge. You're working together. You're partnering. Yeah, you're partnering. So spousal equity is huge.

Not everyone experiences it. So, but that's a true partnership, right? You guys, thank you so much. This has been great. And I love the push and pull. I love it. So thank you for taking it from us. You are the best.

Anytime I'll come back. This is my favorite, you guys. So I love to get my, I love to roll my sleeves up. All right. Thanks, Paula. Thanks. God bless you guys. Thank you. Okay. Bye, I love to roll my sleeves up. All right. Thanks, Paula. Thanks. God bless you guys. Thank you. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. You know, I look at it. It was, it was, it was a great conversation with her and she makes a lot of really good points, which I would agree with, but there's some of these cultural, I've never said I've gotten

triggered, but if I'm going to use the last language, triggering points about, you know, toxic viewpoints that I might've had that she mentioned, which I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's a conversation when she mentioned something about my viewpoint being toxic. No, I think, I think you misinterpreted what she was saying. I think she was saying there are talks. I don't think she was saying that. I have to go back and listen, but I thought she meant something else. But if you look at her book and she does unpack a lot of things, again, you can get people from all different walks of life, which is important, but to come together and say, families are important, support families and supporting families are supporting mothers and fathers and children. And again, I love that she wrote this book focused on moms and the guilt,

and we know this, a lot of moms feel guilty when they're being pushed and pulled between the workforce and the duties at home. And how we navigate that is a broader conversation, but a really important conversation. Well, she's definitely bringing that conversation to the forefront with her book. I'm sure there's lots to agree and disagree with in terms of how she's done it. But she's done the research and it's all there. And you can also go to her website and hear more. Yeah, she absolutely is. So, listen, if you liked our conversation, you can rate, review, subscribe, wherever

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