From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - The Winners & Losers Of The First Republican Debate

Episode Date: August 25, 2023

Sean and Rachel sit down to share their thoughts on the performance of the Republican candidates at the first primary debate of the 2024 Presidential election, and weigh in on why they believe former President Trump was the real winner of the night.   Later, they discuss the policy that each candidate pushed during the debate, why they feel that Vivek Ramaswamy will continue to rise in the polls, and talk about the need to address what they perceive to be a two-tiered system of justice. Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey, everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm Sean Duffy, along with my co-host for the podcast, my partner in life, and my wife, Rachel Campos Duffy.

It's so great to be back, Sean. And boy, last night was a really fascinating political night. We had the Fox News presidential debate for the GOP. And it was great to be talking to you about it today because yesterday we were separated. So this morning we kind of chatted and got each other's opinion. I'm in L with our son and my future daughter-in-law. And, you know, we watched it separately, but we kind of came to many of the same conclusions, wouldn't you say? We did.

And just first, I know a lot of people watch this on Fox News. Some saw the simulcast on Fox Business, but many of you, I'm sure, tuned into Fox Nation where I got to hang out with your co-hosts, Will Kane and Pete Hegseth, as well as Tammy Bruce. We had fun on Fox Nation unpacking the debate before and after and actually during the commercial break.

So yeah, we did have the same kind of takeaways, Rachel, on who the winner was and what we thought of the rest of the candidates outside of the guy who took the top trophy for the night at the debate? Yeah, well, let's be clear. Donald Trump was the winner last night. He wasn't there. He's the only person I know who won a debate by not being there. But nobody came close to what everyone has seen and come to expect from Donald Trump at a debate. He just brings it. Now, Vivek, of those who were there, you and I both agree, was the winner.

What was fascinating to me is that all the others just sounded like the same old circa early 2000s, you know, talking points. It was like they all sounded like pre-Donald Trump talking points with the was like they all sounded like pre-Donald Trump talking points, with the exception of Evade. Here's a little montage of sort of just different things that they said. And if you close your eyes, you might think you're in, you know, I don't know, 2009 or 10. So here, take a listen. This DOJ uses their power, uses their authority, not just against political opponents, but against conservatives and conservative causes.

It is time for a change in America. And I will bring that change to the greatest nation on God's green earth. Every state can determine a different outcome here. And it is the most important issue for women and for the unborn child and for our country that we get this right. Your first obligation is to defend our country and its people. And that means you're sending all this money, but you're not doing what we need to do to secure our own border. We have tens of thousands of people who are being killed because we're not handling both. thousands of people who are being killed because we're not handling both. And so I am going to declare it a national emergency. I'm not going to send troops to Ukraine, but I am going to send

them to our southern border. They need to stop the spending. They need to stop the borrowing. They need to eliminate the earmarks that Republicans brought back in. And they need to make sure they understand these are taxpayer dollars. It's not their dollars. to make sure they understand these are taxpayer dollars. It's not their dollars. Can't we have a minimum standard in every state in the nation that says when a baby is capable of feeling pain, an abortion cannot be allowed. A 15 week ban is an idea whose time has come. It's supported by 70 percent of the American people. But it's going to take unapologetic leadership leadership that stands on principle and expresses compassion for women in crisis hold on pregnancies same stuff same stuff a few good ideas i mean look of course we should go after the doj and the fbi and all that stuff sean but for the most part

we're talking ideas but also style? They just sounded so stale. And by the way, DeSantis needed to show his donors that he could bring it, that he could take on Vivek. And he clearly did not, right? Well, listen, to look at DeSantis, I thought he was a wash, right? If I was playing cards, he'd be a push. I don't think he was horrible. I don't't think he was horrible I don't think he was great I don't think he needed to be great didn't he didn't he need to be great given his numbers

and his slippage in the polls well so he slipped about 10 points um he's about 26 percent now he's down at uh about 18 so an eight point slip over the last month and his donors have been bailing he's had to cut his staff because he doesn't have as much money that's come in the door. And so, yes, you're right. He needed a big night,

a shiny night to keep those donors in his camp. I don't think he delivered. It wasn't bad, but he wasn't great. But let's stay on DeSantis for just a second. What, what is the problem? I mean,

we got to see him, you know, interacting with other candidates, being asked these questions by Martha and Brett. What is it? Why can't he stand out? So I don't think so. Let's just take a moment, because since Donald Trump, which, by the way, I thought he did very well last night. And again, he wasn't on stage, but no one could match the razzle and the dazzle of Donald Trump. And there's an expectation that people actually bring it to the stage. There's not just good ideas. There's not just unique forms of communication, not in talking

point fashion, but also you bring some it factor. There's some entertainment as well. I hate to say that, but it's true. And Ron DeSantis is just, he's awkward. He's kind of boring. He's been a great leader in Florida, but he didn't have any sparkle last night. There wasn't sparkle in his answers, in the words that he used, in how he framed the issues. And I was surprised. I thought that a lot more people on stage would have engaged him and fought with him. And he didn't get in any tussles with anybody really on stage. That was left to Vivek Ram Swamy.

So he didn't have, you know, but for the moment when Brett and Martha asked everyone to raise their hand if they agreed. And Ron Stoutman said, listen, we're not in kindergarten. We're not going to see you do this. Raise your hand. Agreed with what?

That was the Trump, whether you'd pardon Trump. Was that that one? I'm not sure what. I think that was it. But it was the first question, raise your hand. He pushed back, which I thought was appropriate to go, listen, I'm not going to play this. There's more nuanced answers to questions than just raise your hand, yes or no. I thought that was, that showed strength.

I like that he pushed back on that too. But beyond that, I thought he, again, he didn't do anything to move me into a less favorable or more favorable category. As opposed to, oh, go ahead. No, no, you go ahead. I was going to say, as opposed to the rest of the candidates on the stage, you and I were texting last night,

and I thought you made an interesting point. You said, really? Is this what we got? Is this all these guys can bring? Is this the best of the best in the party? I'm paraphrasing what I thought you were saying. Yeah, no, it was not that impressive. I mean, Vivek was a standout,

Sean, on that stage, but he's a super novice candidate. and we're going to talk about some of the issues with Vivek because I have a lot of concerns questions a lot of I have a lot of great things to say about him but I have a lot of concerns about him and I want to get into that as well in just a sec but let's let's go back you're right I was not impressed with the field um it's hard to believe I mean you think, Sean, the field in the last election or even just think back to 2015 when we had the first debates, the first time we saw Trump on stage. You know, you may you may not have voted for for Ted Cruz or or, you know, Marco or Marco Rubio.

or, you know, Marco Rubio. Ben Carson. Marco Rubio. But these were really accomplished, interesting, thoughtful people who I thought brought a lot more to the table than the candidates we saw up here this time. I mean, Asa Hutchins and Burgum. Why was he there?

They would have been not under the second. Remember in 2015, there was two tiers. There was a pre-debate and then the debate. These two wouldn't even have made the pre-debate. They were that bad. But here they made the main stage. I'm going to push back on you on Burgum because I will say, so this is where we go back to DeSantis. My answer to why I think DeSantis failed, because, and you know this, Sean, you and I both give speeches around the country. Oftentimes, obviously what you say matters. But in the end,

it's not what you say, it's how you say it, right? People want to connect with you and trust you. And the first thing you have to do on a stage like this at the very first debate is make a great impression. And while Burgum was, you know, not a razzle dazzle candidate, I will say he was the most likable of everyone up there. He seemed to me the most sincere. Now, that may be because I have a thing for Midwestern men. So I'm not going to lie about that. Small town Midwestern guy.

And he seemed to me, he seemed the most sincere. And also his his resume is impressive. The sad part is what you brought up at the beginning, which is he is a pre-2016 candidate. You know, if he had been the candidate in, you know, 2000 and, you know, whatever, early 2000s, he would have been an amazing candidate. But as you said, we are now, we're looking, we're not just looking for razzle dazzle this is just a superficial comment we need someone who can take the punches because at this point the gloves are off for the for the democrats they're trying to imprison uh put in prison the the the number one um most favorable most highly rated poll numbered uh, Donald Trump. They're trying to put their opposition in jail, you know, Venezuela, Cuba style. And so these are people who are

willing to weaponize government. These are people who are willing to put the FBI on candidates, on lawyers of candidates, on, you know, protesters, Republican protesters around the country, whether they're protesting peacefully in front of abortion clinics or protesting election results. These are this is this is and this is what bothers me about, you know, so many of these candidates is I feel like they're still talking in a way like we're not in emergency zone. Right. And so that's why I think Burgum was likable, but he just can't bring it in this environment. I look at Vivek and I thought that he had the razzle dazzle. But boy, I have a lot of questions about him. So so let me just we're not going to focus on Burgum, but I came away liking him,

but not impressed by him. Right. On the policy. That's a fair assessment, Sean. That's a fair assessment. We're going to play some clips for you all, but I just want to tell you why I thought Vivek did the best. Now, it was interesting. Online, a lot of people thought he was smug and he was smiling too much. He was like a smart class clown. He was nervous, Sean. You can imagine what that's like. To me, that energy was nerves. But I also think he understood that you got to be a happy warrior. And you talk about being a happy warrior all the time. He was a happy warrior on stage. He was having a good time and he was fighting back. He was witty. But there was a couple of segments

that I thought that he was really shining and really was touching the heart of the conservative base. Yeah, and I want to get to that, but you just said something that really sparked it for me. When you said happy warrior, how dour was Mike Pence? I mean, it was like he looked constipated. He looked like he didn't even want to be there. And then you had Wooden DeSantis. And then you had, you know, Nikki Haley with her, like, you know, talking points from the RNC and like the neocons.

And it just was you're right. The only one who gave off any happy warrior vibes was Vivek Ramaswamy. And I think that's an important point to make, because I think we're attracted to that. We are attracted to that. We're going to play some clips from the debate in a moment. But I'm going to give you a couple of the reasons why I thought Vivek was so good. On climate change, you had all the candidates going, well, we need to do this. And we there are they're parsing climate change because of the question, because the way the questions I'm sorry, I know they're my colleagues, but I didn't like the way the question was given, Sean. It was like some millennial, a millennial saying climate change is number one on my list of priorities. I'm like, really, The country's falling apart, little kid.

I don't care if you're a Republican. You don't have to answer their question. You answer the climate change question the way you want to answer the climate change question. Yes, it is a big deal for millennials. They've been brainwashed. They've been brainwashed. And nobody brought that up.

Didn't you want someone to bring that up? And Vivek said, climate change is a hoax. Is a hoax. And then he said, we're going to go through all of the energy policy. We're going to go oil, gas, nuclear. He said, we're going to burn coal. I'm like, the left is losing their mind. He's like, yes, dirty, beautiful coal. We're going to burn it because it's cheap energy. He's like, yes, dirty, beautiful coal. We're going to burn it because it's cheap energy. We're also going to do green as well. But again, he was going with a market based solution on energy, not's a hoax too. I thought that his answer was great, but I was disappointed that nobody basically turned it back on this kid. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to, you know, it's not that you want to excoriate the kid, but you could say,

listen, it's interesting that we have millennial Republican kids, conservative from Young America's Foundation, who says his number one issue is climate. That's because we failed in our schools. Our schools have been completely taken over by these, you know, climate zealots who have made it a religion. They're lying about the data. They're deplatforming and deprofessionalizing. Basically, you're kicked out of the field of science if you disagree. So, of course, they have consensus. If you eliminate any of the dissenters on climate change or anybody who dares to question their theology, they're kicked out of science. So, yeah, of course, you have consensus because you have people who are scientists who live under

fear of telling the truth about the data. And it's impoverishing Americans. And that is the number one issue in America. So that is a sign of our education system. That is a sign of all kinds of problems in our system. And nobody addressed that. But yes, the best answer was be vague. So the government funds the science and government knows the solution of the scientific studies that are going to be done, which is climate change is real and is manmade. If you come up with a different scientific study, you don't get funded. Let's go to clip seven. Awesome. Let's do that. Climate change is also real. I'm not denying the under reality of

the underlying reality that global surface temperatures are going up and in part due to human activity. So that's a clip from Vivek Ramaswamy just a few months ago saying climate change is real. And then here he is on the debate stage saying, and by the way, he wasn't denying that there were, you know, we still needed, you know, fossil fuels and all that stuff. But he did say climate change is real and humans are doing it. And then he's on the debate stage and he says it's a hoax. So he gave the right answer on the stage. But before that, he was talking about it being real and it's manmade. That's right. And if you follow on Twitter, a lot of his critics are bringing up a lot of these old clips where they're saying, listen, Vivek is almost too good.

He's figured out how to win. And you and I always say you got to win the election you're in. Right. So you can't jump to the general election. You have to win the primary. And so does Vivek really believe all these things he's saying about energy? And I don't want reform. I want a 1776 revolution. And this is my feeling on, you know, one of the things they're bringing up that he's been contradicted on is COVID, that he was one of these people criticizing, you know, Republicans and any. And by the way, there was a lot of bipartisan people criticizing COVID policy. He was actually on the side of the Democrats and the leftists and the COVIDians when it came to COVID. And now he's, you know, Mr. Liberty and health freedom.

And so there's a lot of things that we still need to learn about. Be vague. He has no record. And Sean, you would say that's an advantage. That was an advantage to him on on the field because he's he was never a politician. He doesn't have any votes he has to defend, but he does have to defend at some point. He's going to have to defend these very contradictory positions that he's taken on some pretty fundamental policy ideas that he's put forward just over the last year and a half, too. So just to go back to that point, Rachel, 95% of the votes you take, whether you're a governor, no, you don't vote as governor, but the bills you sign as governor or the votes you take

in the Congress, 95% are easy. They're black and white. But there's 5% where they become very nuanced and there's some good things and some bad things. And it's not clear cut the legislation. And you have to take a vote. You have to take a stand. And your opponents can come back and use those votes against you when you run for office again or for a higher office. Not having a record, when you run for office again or for a higher office. Not having a record. Donald Trump had that in the 2015 debate. Vivek has it today. No one can pin you down on anything because you've never had to struggle with these gray issues of a bill being good and bad and having to take a position on it. So he's lucky that way. He's able to play that off. Here's what's going to happen, Rachel. Vivek, he was hanging out in the 5% range, 7% range. He wasn't a threat to anybody. In the last month he surged, his poll numbers have

almost doubled. He went from 5% up to 11%. And he performed well last night. So what's going to happen now, no one paid attention. No one's dug into his history, who he is, where he came from. They haven't looked at the prior positions that he has taken, the hypocrisy of what he said on stage versus what he said in the past. I guarantee you that is going to happen now. That's going to happen now. The only person who did take a shot at him, and let's play that clip because it's really interesting, is Chris Christieie let's listen to that i've had enough already tonight of a guy who sounds like chat gpt standing up here and the last person in one of these debates brett who stood in the middle of the stage and said what's a skinny guy with an odd last name doing up here was Barack Obama.

And I'm afraid we're dealing with the same type of amateur standing on stage tonight. Give me a hug just like you did to Obama. The same type of amateur. At the end there, Vivek comes back. I want to get your analysis of that exchange. I want to make sure we caught that though, Sean. At the end, after Chris Christie says that Vivek sounds like chat GPT, which I have to admit was really funny and kind of plays along with what we were, you know, kind of goes along and tracks with what we were talking about. Is Vivek real? Is he too good to be true? Is he just, you know, learning all the primary base loader lines and spewing them out chat GPT style? Or does he really

believe these things? But the comeback that Vivek gives after, and I don't know if we caught that really well, is he goes, come on, Chris Christie, give me a hug, like the hug you gave Obama when you helped him win the election. Of course, that was after Hurricane Sandy and Chris Christie was the governor of New Jersey and, of course, wanted to make sure that, you know, he looked to his mostly Democrat voters in New Jersey because that's a very Democrat leaning state that he was working with the president, not against him because federal money coming to New Jersey was important at that time. at that time. It was a pre-planned line by Chris Christie. He delivered it really well. It was funny. It would have been a death blow, I think, in the debate. Everyone would have been talking about it had Vivek not responded the way he had. And Vivek's comeback was fantastic, right? He took the pressure off himself and the hit about him being just like Barack Obama, skinny guy with a weird last name. What am I doing on stage to how about you, Chris Christie?

You're hugging Obama. You helped him win the election in 2012. Great comeback. It shows that Vive can think on his feet. Right. He understands. And also that he understands the Republican base. If you are if you're a Democrat listening to our podcast right now, you may not know this, but the base Republican.

I mean, they detest Chris Christie for that moment on the beach hugging. Now, maybe New Jersey Republicans were OK with it, but the rest of the country, the rest of the Republicans. I cannot tell you how viscerally awful they felt about him at that moment. They just hated seeing at that moment in the election in such a critical time, seeing Chris Christie hug Obama and give him that press moment of bipartisanship in the middle of a very heated election. And boy, Republicans hated Chris Christie for that. And they brought it right back, said, yeah, I may have a long name like Obama. You hug Obama. And boy, Republicans hate Obama.

He's like, hey, bro, come give me a hug, which I thought was pretty funny. Very millennial. We'll have more of this conversation after this. From the Fox News Podcast Network. I'm Janice Dean, Fox News senior meteorologist. Be sure to subscribe to the Janice Dean, Fox News Senior Meteorologist. Be sure to subscribe to the Janice Dean Podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And don't forget to spread the sunshine. So, Rachel, we talked about the climate change. We've talked

about this fun exchange between Chris Christie and Bivak. By the way, Chris Christie is a gunslinger. He's great at this stuff. And you saw the way he delivered that line. There's also another line in there where Chris Christie was talking about, oh God, he was talking about being cynical and I can't remember what the line was. And Vivek came back and said, listen, I would believe you. You'd have a lot more credibility if you weren't so cynical. And I'm not pulling up the right line. It's not's not the top of my head i don't know if you recall the moment rachel but it was fantastic again he says he basically throws it he basically says all you've done is you know attack uh you know donald trump yeah you've been super focused on on on on attacking donald trump and and again that's another thing that That's a big question, right?

Looming over this entire primary, which is, you know, the approval ratings for Donald Trump are undeniable. They they puzzle and confound the left and the media. But the truth is, Republicans really like Donald Trump. His numbers would not be in the 60 and 70 percent. And so the question is, how do you run against somebody with that kind of approval, with that kind of approval for the kinds of policies he enacted and and the way he made our country, you know, the best economy in our entire lifetime? Like, how do you run against that? And I think the only one who's really figured out how to do that is Vivek. Vivek's way of doing this and his strategy is, I'm going to embrace everything everybody loves about Trump. I'm never going to attack him.

I'm just going to say I'm a younger, happier, maybe more smarter version of him. Maybe that's what he's putting forward. I'm the younger voice of him. Now, whether you believe that or not, that's a whole other thing. But his strategy is not to attack Trump. I think the others from DeSantis, I think that is why his poll numbers are dropping. And and Christie is a joke. Nobody nobody wants him because he's attacking Donald Trump. So let's let's hear how dvd ramswami defends and praises donald trump president trump i believe was the best president of the 21st century honest to god your claim that donald trump is motivated by vengeance and grievance would be a lot more credible if your entire campaign were not based on vengeance and grievance

against one man. And if people at home want to see a bunch of people blindly bashing Donald Trump without an iota of vision for this country, they could just change the channel to MSNBC right now. But I'm not running for president of MSNBC. I am running for president of the United States. We're skating on thin ice and we cannot set a precedent where the party in power uses police force to indict its political opponents it is wrong you make me laugh because

you sit here in an answer. You sit here in an answer. You sit here in an answer. Go ahead. All right. That, that a great exchange. That was,

that was the line I was trying to pull up. You were trying to pull up. I know. Vengeance and grievance. Yes. And, and he threw it right back in chris christie's face right of chris christie saying you're right you know donald trump's running a campaign of vengeance and grievance well like he's like the poster boy of vengeance and grievance and so you you started off the premise rachel how do you because don Donald Trump is pulling over 50%. If you actually want to win, you can't offend Donald Trump's voters. You got to actually win them over. And you don't win them over in the Chris Christie mold of criticizing and demonizing Donald Trump.

You talk about the greatness of Donald Trump, all the wonderful things he did, and you can offer a different vision. So listen, there could come a day where the number one guy who probably won't be taken down, Donald Trump, that number one guy, something might happen to him where he's not in the race. And the number two will ascend to number one. Who can be the number two candidate? That's really what they're playing for right now. Trump is endearing himself to the Trump voter, but then also they're willing to listen to his ideas and the way he's formulating a strategy and a plan for America. Everyone else on stage, I thought it was actually disgraceful. So the question was asked, would you pardon Donald Trump? Vivek rose his hand and said, I would pardon him. And Mike Pence gave this slimy answer of, basically, I'll consider any of the pardon requests that come to my desk, which is in essence saying I'm not going to pardon Donald Trump. And so if you believe that the Department of Justice has been politicized,

that the prosecution of a former president, the top polling candidate against Joe Biden, isn't being prosecuted because of politics, but because he's done something wrong, you won't pardon him. But if you believe that this is political, we don't believe in political prosecutions. And the next president would pardon the guy who was subject of this partisanship in the FBI and the DOJ. the guy who was subject of this partisanship in the FBI and the DOJ. Vivek was the only one who said it. And he got love and affection from the voters that he needs to win over. Should Donald Trump not be in the race? He did it perfectly where everyone else was squirming, sliming around on stage, crystal clear, bright lined.

Yeah. And by the way, it was interesting, you know, the audience, there was a lot of booze. I mean, to a point where Brett Baer had to turn around and kind of ask the audience to stop booing Pence, to stop booing Chris Christie. Chris Christie actually had to address the booze at one point. So these people are, you know, if you're not loved by your party, I mean, just, you know, just call it in. I mean, who are these donors funding Mike Pence? Who are these idiots giving money to to Chris Christie? I mean, these are people or Asa Hutchinson. These are people who are so obviously out of sync with where the Republican voters are with with the mood of

the country. These are people, you know, these are the the donors voters are with with the mood of the country. These are people, you know, these are the the donors who are giving to these people enough so because you had to meet a certain donor level of threshold exactly to get on the stage. These are donors who are worried about tax cuts and and sort of corporate, you know, interests that have nothing to do with where the American people are, where the Republican base in particular is. The American public, the Republican base right now is concerned about real fundamental things. I mean, people I talk to are like, I don't recognize this country anymore.

You and I have talked about this a gazillion times. We have interviewed people who were dissidents from Venezuela, who made their way over here, were able to escape. And we've asked them on this podcast, when did you know that it was over for Venezuela, that you had to get the hell out of there? And they said, when the justice system was corrupted and weaponized against the opposition, boy, we are already here. That's where we're at right now in this country. And people sense it. They see this two tiered system of justice. They see corruption at the highest level. They see Hunter Biden escaping, you know, and Joe Biden getting away with having been compromised, having taken millions of dollars from our greatest enemies, China, Russia, from the corrupt country of Ukraine, where we're now giving gazillions of dollars to them as well, that they're compromised, that our policy is being impacted by them, that they have shell companies with hell as a shell company i don't have a shell company you're the shell company um getting money from china and russia when your dad's the vp um unless your family is

getting enriched by by by these dirty deals it's so obvious it doesn't even need to be said and yet they see donald trump um now being indicted because he had boxes with letters from Kim Jong-un in Mar-a-Lago when he actually has the right as a president to declassify everything. I mean, this stuff is insane. And so people see it. And that's what this election is about. So, Rachel, we've talked about climate change being a hoax. That was a distinguishing moment.

Pardoning Trump and the support of Trump. That was a distinguishing moment. Pardoning Trump and the support of Trump, that was a distinguishing moment on the stage. But you're talking about dirty deals. A lot of the money came from Ukraine. Ukraine was also a moment of disagreement on stage, but also with regard to where the audience was at. I don't think the audience was the average GOP voter. They were the donor class, the friends of the RNC that were able to make it into the debate. But let's let's talk about. But before before we say that, can I just say something? Ukraine was really important or was an important for on several levels before we play the clip. I want to just lay out for our listeners why Ukraine matters so much in this particular primary. First of all, it is the moment when

Ron DeSantis flipped his position on Ukraine. So he gave an honest statement and Ron DeSantis called Ukraine a territorial dispute, which was still kind of meanly mouthed, but sort of undermining the neocon, like this is existential to democracy in the world message. Right. And so he said that. And then the next day when his donors found out, he backtracked. And I think if you start to look at poll numbers, that is the moment that you start to see the decline of Ron DeSantis. When the Republican based voter started to see that he was being directed and controlled by big donor money, by neocon money and people who are profiting off of this war in the military industrial complex. So that is where you start to see that decline.

You also see that this is a big distinction because there are some big neocons on the stage. distinction because there are some big neocons on the stage. Nikki Haley, Mike Pence, Chris Christie, and all of them have made trips to Ukraine. And that comes back to the clip, Sean, that you wanted to play. Mr. Ramaswamy, you would not support an increase of funding to Ukraine. I would not. And I think that this is disastrous, that we are protected against an invasion across somebody else's border when we should use those same military resources to prevent across the invasion of our own southern border here in the United States of America. We are driving Russia further into China's hands.

The Russia-China alliance is the single greatest threat we face. And I find it offensive that we have professional politicians on the stage that will make a pilgrimage to Kiev to their pope, Zelensky, without doing the same thing for people in Maui or the south side of Chicago or Kensington. I think that we have to put the interests of Americans first. Secure our own border instead of somebody else's. And the reality is, this is also how we project strength by making America strong at home. is this is also how we project strength and by making america strong at home all right okay so that was vivek ramaswamy really calling out the neocons on the stage tim scott um tim scott nicki haley um mike pence chris christie am i missing anyone asa hutchinson basically all of

them except for him um and even de santSantis, because he switched sides on that, saying you took a pilgrimage to go see your Pope Zelensky in Ukraine when the real issues are here at home. That by far, Sean, was my favorite moment of the debate. So I thought it was great because the answer was crystal clear. He had a position on funding Ukraine. He said no more. DeSantis had an opportunity to answer that same question. And he hemmed and hawed and said, well, why are we

sending so much? Shouldn't Europe send more? And yes, we should defend our own border. It's like, listen, you're saying you want to give more, Ron, if Europe gives more? The backdrop of this, Rachel, is America is not a rich country. We're $32 trillion in debt. We have more debt than anybody else on the face of the earth. And that we're giving money, hundreds of billions of dollars, 100 plus billion dollars to Ukraine is outrageous. And again, do I feel bad for the Ukrainians? Yes, I do. Do I want them to beat the Russians? Yes, I do. But do I think it's our responsibility to fund the Ukraine war? There's a lot of people getting rich. American companies are getting rich. A lot of Ukrainians are getting rich. There's not a lot of good accounting on how and where that money is being

spent. So people are able to siphon cash off the top, that's a problem. And when you can't secure your own border, Nikki Haley was like, well, we can fight Ukraine and we can secure our border. I thought it was like a cat's claws on a chalkboard listening to Nikki Haley. I think that Vivek is right. Cut off the funding. Let's keep the cash. This is not our fight. The fight that you have in America is a fight with China. And Vivek made the point that you're driving Russia into the arms of China. Most of us agree with that. But laying it out so crisply and clearly on stage was so important for Vivek. And he distinguished himself from everyone else at the podiums. And he distinguished himself from everyone else at the podiums. He did. It was a it was a distinguishing moment. And yet, do you remember at the beginning of our conversation, Sean, I said the winner of the debate was not there and it was Donald Trump. And the reason is because we all know what Donald Trump would say if he was on the stage. He wouldn't just talk about the money. He wouldn't just talk about the southern border.

Trump would say, one, this war wouldn't have started at all had I been there. And I know we all believe that. And two, this before I even take office, I will negotiate peace. Donald Trump, nobody said, let's negotiate peace. Let's negotiate peace. Let's end this now. And and and that is the difference. Donald Trump distinguishes himself from all of them in that regard. And yes, Vivek just, you know, was different from everybody else. But he didn't give he didn't give a complete answer. He talked about the geopolitics of it. That's true. would have also brought up the fact that he was that the corruption of the Biden administration of the Biden family is partially why we're in this war and continue to fund it. That Zelensky,

you know, the member of the perfect phone call, Sean, that Donald Trump made saying, hey, we understand that there's some corruption going on. Now we have all the proof about it. The prosecutor that was supposed to be that the State Department said was doing a good job going after corruption in Ukraine from these corrupt energy companies. And the, you know, Hunter Biden being on the board of Burisma telling his dad with a fake, you know, email, you know, pseudonym name to tell his dad and, you know, what was going on and him calling out that prosecutor and making sure he got fired in order to make sure that Hunter Biden got the millions of dollars from Burisma. All of this would have been brought up

by Donald Trump. Our policy right now, the war, the millions of people that are suffering, the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who are dead, the hundreds of thousands of children who are missing from that war is being driven by this policy that's being driven by the corruption of the Bidens. That piece of the puzzle wasn't put in place. Donald Trump would have brought that up. I believe that Donald Trump was the winner on this issue, but Vivek was sort of the flag bearer in his absence and definitely distinguished himself. I thought that was the best moment of the debate. It was the standout moment and shows that, you know, all of those people, as we said from the beginning, Sean, they are pre-2006. These people have not gotten the memo. The base has moved on from their RNC talking points from 2001.

This is not the war party. This is not the corporate party. This is the party of the working class. This is the party that wants peace around the world and wants transparency and corruption out of government. This is this wants transparency in government and corruption out there. I just felt like all of them just missed the moment. We'll have more of this conversation after this. So, yeah, I think there are good moments by a few, a lot of not great moments of scissor moments by others. Here's what I think was missed. I'm going to talk about what what didn't happen in the debate, which I think would have been fantastic. to talk about what didn't happen in the debate, which I think would have been fantastic. Number one, I look back to Donald Trump in 2015, and he was talking about building a wall and securing the

border when no Republican talked about it or thought they could talk about it. They thought that if you talked about a border and building a wall, you'd offend Hispanic voters. You wouldn't win them. And you need a decent portion of a minority of the Hispanic vote to win elections. Donald Trump came out and said, build a wall. It became a chant. Everybody then moved to securing the border when Donald Trump did it first. And by the way, Donald Trump won Hispanic voters. He also talked about Donald Trump in 2015. We're going to go after China. China's taking advantage of the working men and women in America. We're going to use tariffs against them. That is going against the orthodoxy of the Republican Party because we don't believe in tariffs for anybody, for anything,

no matter how much another country's screwing us, we'll never do it. Donald Trump said, no, I'm going to fight for the average man. He was a bold and unique thinker on the stage. I didn't see anybody. We one thing. By the way, I believe that Vivek takes the best ideas that Donald Trump had and just like pretends like they were his or, you know, I think or acts like he invented them. But there is there is one point where I disagree with you, Sean, and that is that Vivek has been the most vocal. And by the way, Republicans have heard this before for many years, but no one ever did it or ever said it on the debate stage, which is I'm going to defund and eliminate the Department of Education. Boy, I wish Donald Trump had done that. He should have done that

when he was in office. I've heard this and I've heard that for 30 years. I know, but I actually can say that when he says it, I believe that if he was, that he's made it such a cornerstone of his campaign, that I believe he will do it. It should be eliminated. That's like saying we're going to move the embassy in Israel

to Jerusalem. Donald Trump did it. And maybe Donald Trump will finally do it in the next term. It's all been said. No one was talking about putting tariffs on China as Republicans. No one was talking about a border wall. I agree with that. I agree with that totally. You're right on that. You might believe he will do it, but everyone has talked about it. No one has done it. The other point that I think was missed, and again, I think Brett and Martha did a very good job. It was getting raucous on stage to try to control that debate when everyone's

trying to talk at the same time. And Mike Pence is trying to talk over everybody all the time. He wouldn't be quiet, which I thought was bad form for him. I think what they did miss, though, is I think most Americans look at all the problems that we face, whether it's border, it's crime, it's Ukraine, it's China, a lot of issues, debt. But you don't have a democracy if you can't fix the deep state, if you can't fix the DOJ, the FBI, if you can't look at the NSA and the CIA, you can't root out that corruption, which is all of government. Take every agency, a bunch of liberal, radical leftists

have embedded inside the government. You can't fix any of these problems unless you fix that. I think that's the number one issue for every single, hold on, every single American out there, every Republican American voter cares about that issue. It was talked about as a side issue in answers to other questions. I would have liked a question about that issue. It was talked about as a side issue in answers to other questions. I would have liked a question about that specifically. How are you going to fix it? What are you going to do to address the radical deep state in this country? Because if you're elected, but you can't implement your ideas and your policies that you ran on because the deep state is going to stop you, you don't have a democracy. It's

fundamental. And that question wasn't asked. And I wish Brett and Martha would have brought that one up and seen how these candidates responded to it. By the way, Donald Trump had a chance to do it in four years. And again, I'm a big fan of the policies of President Trump, but he didn't get his hands around that one. He didn't fix that one. Maybe in the second term, if he gets it, he now understands how radical the deep state is and he will fix it. But he didn't in four years. So Ron DeSantis has had a few effect, very effective ads and sort of zingers calling out Donald Trump for not taking out the deep state for saying he was going to drain the swamp. And he didn't. And that is a fair criticism of Donald Trump.

No question about it. And Vivek has said, I'm going to eliminate the FBI. In addition to the Department of Education, I'm going to root out the corruption in the DOJ. He has said that he would eliminate, which is the idea that you have been proposing for a long time, Sean, which is just getting rid of the unions. And, you know, you can't be a federal employee and be unionized. You have to be able to fire you if you're not doing the job that the executive has charged you with doing. I mean, we can't have a fourth state. And by the way, that's part of Vivek's campaign is he's like, we have three branches of government, not four,

the fourth being, you know, the administrative state that actually, in fact, as we are now learning, is running the government. I think it's interesting, Sean, that the one candidate who, as you've said, who has learned from four years of how the deep state can get you, isn't talking much about it. And I think he talks about it, but not so much. And I think it's on purpose. Because look, he's already ensnared in a lot of stuff from the deep state. But the deep state, RFK Jr. has come out and said, absolutely, the biggest mistake my dad, you know, the biggest mistake that my dad did was saying a week before that he was going to take on these forces in the clandestine, you know, intelligence, you know, network of our government, you. He clearly shared the same vision of JFK, his brother, the president. And I think was running in order to complete the work that that JFK wanted to do.

President Kennedy wanted to do in that regard and then got killed before. It could be, Sean, and I've thought about this, that maybe Donald Trump is not going to talk about that because he's afraid of being killed himself. If he talks too much about what he intends to do in that space, should he be elected? What do you think about that? I don't think Donald Trump's afraid. I think it's an interesting thought. I don't think Donald Trump's afraid of anything or anybody. You don't think he's afraid of being killed? No. I don't think he's afraid of going to jail and running for president. I'm going to go under a rock and never run. But I definitely think that, I'll tell you this,

I'll put it this way. If I was Melania, I would be worried about my husband because he is taking on the most powerful forces in the world. And these forces are globalist. I believe that the swamp that we're talking about isn't just an American swamp. They're tied to the globalist swamps that you see in Davos and in Brussels, who are controlling so much of the global policy around the world, the lockdowns that we had, all the hoaxes around COVID, everything that happened with the lockdown, all of that, these are powerful, powerful business interests. Yeah, no, they are. And if Donald Trump is thinking about that, I guess I haven't seen him show any leg on his thought process. And if Donald Trump is thinking about that, I guess I haven't seen him show any leg

on his thought process. And if he is, maybe he's so concerned about it, to your point, Rachel, he doesn't mention it to anybody. He's just going to say, I'm going to be quiet on this and address this issue silently, quietly when I get to the White House. That could be. They're out to get us, Sean. There's no question. They want to destroy him. Well, they tried before he was elected, after he was elected, after the 2020 election.

They haven't stopped. For the last six years, they've been trying to take him out. They haven't used a pistol or a rifle, but they've used every other tool at their disposal to destroy Donald Trump, and he only goes up in the polls. So to that point, Rachel, as we kind of finish off this conversation about the debate, you mentioned that Donald Trump was the clear winner at the start of

this conversation. And I agree with you. And I agree with you because no one showed that they had the chops, the stamina, the razzle-dazzle, the fight that Donald Trump has. No one was able to match the man that wasn't on the stage when they were on the stage last night. The only one, as this conversation has gone, would have been Vivek Ramaswamy. But if you're honest, Vivek was a bit of a mini Trump. It's almost like he channeled Donald Trump's policies and ideas on stage. And again, I think there's going to be a lot of questions that come about the sincerity of the comments that he made. Obviously, I think it struck a chord with a lot of viewers, but I'm not sure how sincere he was based on prior comments that he's made. We're going to see that in the coming days. that in the coming days. But here's what I want you to also think about, Rachel. You mentioned this earlier. The attacks that have come on Donald Trump, it's not just Donald Trump,

right? He's taking them now, but whoever... Let's say Donald Trump's not the nominee in 2024, and it's one of the other people that you saw on the stage last night. The attacks that you saw on Donald Trump, they're just going to pivot. There will be new attacks. There'll be new scandals. There'll be new leaks. There'll be new investigations on whoever the candidate is going to be. That playbook for Democrats, and by the way, the Democrats are in the deep state, that playbook worked against Donald Trump. He wasn't reelected in 2024 or 2020. They're going to run the same playbook again. It's only gotten more extreme as elections have rolled on. They did it a little bit in 2020 to George Bush. They did it more in 2024 to Bush. But they destroyed John McCain. They destroyed

Mitt Romney. And they've now gone further in using every apparatus to try to destroy Donald Trump. And in the end, they were sleeping at the wheel. They thought Hillary was going to win in 16, so they didn't play as hard. They played for keeps in 2020, and it worked. They're going to do the same thing to the next nominee. And so what I'm looking for is who has the strength in the fight to take on... I mean, listen, I've told you this before. I would have been cowering in the White House during the Russia collusion leaks and stories, and it was horrible. Or even after the impeachments and then during the prosecutions in four jurisdictions, most men would cower at what's happening to them. Donald Trump stands to hour. He's bigger. He's

a fighter. And I don't know anyone on the stage that will fight like Donald Trump because it's coming. And I want someone who's, by the way, this was never a consideration for us, but it has to be now. It's not just policy. It's not just ideas. It's not just your governing philosophy. It's do you have the fight to engage the deep state, slap them down, punch down on the media when they attack you wrongfully? No one but Donald Trump can do it. You are 100% right. That has to be part of the criteria now. And no one can say that that he I mean, Donald Trump gets they they they throw everything at him and his poll numbers go up because he keeps standing. He keeps attacking on them and he won't back down. And you have to have that fortitude on it. You know, Vivek was feisty,

but that's not the same as being the rock and the flippant punching. You know, Vivek was feisty, but that's not the same as being the rock and the flipping punching, you know, the way Trump punches back. Yeah, it was nice to see Vivek punch back at Chris Christie and come back. That wasn't a good moment. But Vivek is a untested, unknown candidate, really. candidate, really. And at this as you said, Sean, the attacks from what we saw with McCain to Romney to Trump, I mean, it has increased exponentially to the point where now we have four indictments and they're daring us to put forward a candidate from jail.

And so this is not Banana Republic stuff. We're talking about Marxists. We're dealing with communists. And do we have someone who can stand up to the radicals who are running our country, who say the ends justify the means and will do anything to take you down? And the only person that I have seen able to do that is Donald Trump. And certainly that has to be part of the equation. And what I've been interested, fascinated by Donald Trump is, you know, he's not a lifelong political, he's a lifelong business guy. But his gut has been remarkably good in how he's handled crises. And he's been able to navigate things because he thinks differently, but also his gut is strong.

And he doesn't listen to the consultant, Sean. I mean, that Iran that has nuclear weapons detonates one over Tel Aviv, definitely use that as an example. But if that happens, who do you want in the White House? Who do you want responding? Who has the grit, the strength, the gravitas to step onto the world stage and lead the world? the gravitas to step onto the world stage and lead the world. Who is that? Be vague. When I think about it that way, be vague at 38 years old, playing tennis with his shirt off, which by the way,

was horrible. I thought that was a fine moment. I disagree with you. Listen, keep your shirt on. You don't take your shirt off when you're running for president. Rachel, you're wrong.

I thought that was fine. But you know what, Sean, you are right about this. And I'm going to give you one example before we go, because it makes your point perfectly. When Donald Trump took office in 2016, he had a meeting with Barack Obama. It was the last, you know, it was the last time they spoke, you know, sort of exchanging the keys, if you will, to the White House. And Donald Trump said, what worries you the most as you leave office right now? And Barack Obama said, the only thing that keeps me up at night is Kim Jong-un, North Korea, that situation. And Donald Trump said, well, have you and him have you and him and Kim Jong Un talked? Have you spoken? We had a conversation. And Barack Obama's like, no, of course not. What's the first thing that Donald Trump did when he came? He he began to have a really because that's how businessmen think. Right. I've got a problem. I better deal with the with the top guy. I'm not gonna the State Department tell me who I can and can't talk to or how I can communicate with them. I'm going to talk directly with Kim Jong-un. I'm going to learn who he is and what motivates him.

And I really think Donald Trump had the right instincts. Kim Jong-un wanted to feel affirmed in some way, like he wasn't the pariah. And what we needed was just to dissipate and bring down the temperature. Little Rocket Man had to be brought down a notch or two. Brick brought down a notch or two, and he was tough with him. He said, my rockets are bigger than yours. But at the same time, he showed him respect. And we were able to bring that situation down. By the way, right now, the situation in North Korea, as bad as it was under Obama, everything that Donald Trump had worked towards in terms of some sort of calming of that situation has now been reversed.

So again, this is the instinct of a mature, experienced businessman with an excellent gut. So I disagree. So Donald Trump asked Barack Obama, what keeps you up at night? And you just laid out the answer that Barack Obama gave. That is the answer he gave. Yes. But that was the wrong question. The right question Donald Trump should have asked is, what should keep me up at night? And then the answer would have been, well, it's the FBI and the DOJ and the CIA. It's the CIA that I've actually weaponized against you. This new Russia hoax. That's so good. What should keep you up at night, Donald Trump, is the fact that I've now created a hoax with Hillary's campaign to say that you're a Russian agent. Yeah, you're going down. We're going to put you in jail. That should keep you up at night. For me,

without this shenanigans in the FBI, I'm going to worry about Kim Jong-un, but you better worry about the deep state. Yeah, the deep state turned out to be a bigger enemy than Kim Jong-un. Good point, Sean. This is a great conversation. I thought it was I thought it was a it was an educational debate. We've got to see people on stage, you know, metal sharpening metal. And again, I think we both agree the clear winner, if not Donald Trump, who wasn't there, was Vivek Ramaswamy. Take away. Everyone seemed like an RNC talking point early 2000, you know a language and stylistically. And if they want

to ingratiate themselves to Republican voters, they'll have more chances. I think on the 27th of September, Fox Business, my network, is going to be hosting the next debate at the Reagan Library. They'll have a second chance to come and make their pitch to the

American Republican Party. My takeaway, Sean, my takeaway, authenticity matters. And I think that's going to be the test for Vivek after this, after having, quote unquote, won this debate, even though we know the winner was not at the debate. But of those on the stage, Vivek won. And now the spotlight, as you said, Sean, will be on him. All his old clips are going to come back out. The opposition research is going to begin in, you know, very robustly. And we're going to see if he's the real deal, because a lot of people think he's too good to be real, too slick.

And that he has a lot of answers to be, he has to answer a lot of questions about some statements he's made before compared to what he's saying now. So I think that's going to be the interesting takeaway for me. No doubt about that. Listen, great conversation. Rachel, can't wait for you to come home from LA where you are. Can I just say one thing about LA? So I'm in LA, I'm in our son's apartment, which I'm assuming might have thin walls.

And so we've been we've been praising a lot of Republican candidates and ideas here in this apartment. I'm going to be very careful as I walk outside. We'll see if the neighbors heard me, heard me or not. I might I might I might not be a good good for me leaving this LA apartment. I'm happy to be coming back home to you. You were not quiet, which I appreciate. Safe travels back. Listen, if you like our podcast, you can rate, review, subscribe

wherever you get your podcasts. You can always find us at foxnewspodcast.com. We would appreciate a subscribe from you all. You'll get a notice every time we drop Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Listen, you can't find us on video right now. We're on the audio. We've had some video, but we're coming back to video soon as well. We've got our studio up and running in the next week or two. So looking forward to that. All right. Bye, everybody.

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